Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AnsharSeraphim 01-12-07, 03:58 PM	Greetings Tleilaxu_Ghola & RadicalTaoist! I'm in love with your Chrono-Legionairre Build: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9054561&postcount=24 I was wondering if you could help me tweak it to use in a Gestalt Campaign. (EDIT!! Go to Post #11 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11169264&postcount=11) to see notes on the finished product, I'll grind out a whole advancement sheet for everyone to see in the next few days when I get a spare hour or two) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG53.jpg I'm looking to use Kyton as the Base Race (using the Monster Class Advancement on pg 181-182 in Savage Species). The following rules are used: All WoTC Material (unupdated 3.0 or 3.5 only) GESTALT Campaign Kyton Monster Class is considered a Base Class for purposes of Gestalt Traits and Flaw Bonus Feat Rule from UA (for up to two bonus feats at lvl 1) Evil Campaign My thought was to take 6 levels of Psychic Warrior after the prereq 14 lvls of Kyton Monster Class to Supplement the Feat Selection and get things like Psionic Lion's Charge without feat expenditure. It might delay the build a bit, but using the Psychic Warriors Prodigious Bonus Feats to nail some of the applicable Combat Feats and grab Expanded Knowledge feats to supplement the power list seemed like a pretty capital idea. I'd be using Spiked Chains as weapons (10 ft reach) instead of a Two Handed Sword, so I might have to alter the tactics a bit to make the combo effective. Your opinions? Some things to consider: Chains Animated with the Animate Chain Ability are essentially Constructs that I control by will with a free action and can direct to attack 1x a round at my full BAB. Does this make combos for flanking, etc, that I'm not aware of? Could I supplement the Ability with Telekinesis? It was suggested by a friend that I go for Fleshgrinding/Masterslaying on the Chains, and in that light, I was thinking about manifesting touch based Electrical Spells through my Chains, or similar combos. Thoughts? Base Combo to Work off of: Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal + Schism = 2 Attacks at Full BAB (Kyton Ability) + Additional Attacks from high BAB + 4 Attacks from Animated Chains + Manifested Powers Through Schism/Mental Actions. I love the idea of using Divert Teleport + Inconstant Location to make life hell on my opponent, my question would be, how would I change the tactics since I'd be using a Reach Weapon (10ft and can also strike at close range). I know there's a Power in Complete Psionics to increase your Weapon Reach (Extend Reach, pg 89). In addition, I can manipulate the length of chains I animate (though I'm uncertain of what kind of reach they have, etc). I suppose my big Primary Question (if you're looking to make a quick response) is this: Instead of using Power Attack, like in the Chrono Build, what would be a similarly effective combo to use with a Reach Weapon (spiked chain), especially considering I can animate up to 4 more chains? Secondary Question: What Quick and Dirty Build Changes would you make knowing you'll have 6 levels of Psychic Warrior after level 14. I know feat selection will be different because of the change in primary weapon. Thoughts? Thanks ahead of time for your response/contributions. -Anshar PS- Question was posted HERE: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=769891 if you want supporting info for the build/idea.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-12-07, 04:26 PM	The addition of flaws greatly assists any psi-gish build, and the Chrono-Legionare is no exception. 'Course you won't be human, so it'll only net you one additional feat, but that's still pretty good. My recommendation is to use the melee focused varient. It's more powerful, IMO, but it's incapable of slaying the Heca... small loss if you ask me. Here's my suggested build, with your parameters: Kyton/Nomad: Improved Bull Rush, (Power Attack), (Overchannel), (Psi-Crystal Affinity) Kyton/Ranger: (Track) Kyton/Nomad: Practiced Manifester Kyton/Nomad: Kyton/Nomad: Kyton/Anarchic Initiate: EK (Psionic Lion's Charge), [Chaotic Surge] Kyton/Anarchic Initiate Kyton/Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation] Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Shock Trooper, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense] Kyton/Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer] Kyton/Fighter: (WF: Spiked Chain) Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)] Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body), (BONUS FEAT) Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6), BONUS FEAT Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Breach Power Resistance] Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity] Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Blast Feedback], [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)], BONUS FEAT Psychic Warrior/Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion] Power attack still works with spiked chain, and works wonderfully with it, so definately keep it in mind. I'm not sure what to do with those bonus feats at the end, except use them for EK to get the powers you want. Might be a better idea to invest in a different psionic class, though. Like Ardent or Wilder. Why? Because you pool your PP from all your classes, so they'd add a significant boost to your PP pool, at the expense of those luscious bonus feats, of course.
AnsharSeraphim 01-12-07, 05:02 PM	Thanks for the response! Supplementary Questions: 1. Thoughts on Manifesting Touch Powers Through the Chains (aka energy current etc)? 2. Tactics Change because of Animate Chains Ability? 3. How will overall tactics change or be optimized through use of the Chain? 4. What's a good way to incorporate trips/disarms with the chains into the Chrono-Legionairre's attack routine? 5. Any unique possibilities with the attack routine because of being a Kyton? Extend Reach (CPsi) would give me a 15ft reach and I would keep the ability to attack adjacent opponents (Kyton Ability). Any Tactics Changes on that? Finally, Tactic Ideas with Animate Chains? Here's the SRD Quote: "Dancing Chains (Su) A chain devil’s most awesome attack is its ability to control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a chain devil can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the devil itself. If a chain is in another creature’s possession, the creature can attempt a DC 15 Will save to break the chain devil’s power over that chain. If the save is successful, the kyton cannot attempt to control that particular chain again for 24 hours or until the chain leaves the creature’s possession. The save DC is Charisma-based. " Savage Species Errata for the Monster Class: Only 1 attack at the Kyton's BAB with each chain No DC 15 Will Save to Break the Kyton's Control (it was removed) With this in mind should I shoot for Trips/Grapples/Disarms with the Animated Chains? What about Flanking? I plan on having Fleshgrinding enchants and Masterslaying Enchants on the Chains. Combo Ideas? Thanks ahead of time for your responses! -Anshar PS - Would Lurk / Psychic Rogue / or Just plain old Rogue work instead of Psychic Warrior? If I'll constantly be flanking, it would seem that sneak attacks are just the ticket I'm after here for supplementary damage. Lurk would supplement PSPs and give me augments to mess around with, but I will lose those pretty bonus feats.
AnsharSeraphim 01-12-07, 06:00 PM	Hmm. I wonder if I could use leap attack on animated chains. The Su Ability description says they attack as if they were me. Grappling/Fleshgrinding combos are starting to tickle my brain :D
RadicalTaoist 01-12-07, 06:18 PM	Hmmm. Lemme kick my CP around and I'll get back to you.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-12-07, 07:13 PM	Well, see it all depends on what matters most to you. Do you want pure damage? If so then just use the progression I gave ya. Do you want battle-field control (outside of the teleportive effects the build already sports), then I recommend going with AoOs, not tripping. Why AoOs? Quite simple, really, it's because its very difficult to become immune to AoOs, but it's quite easy to become immune or difficult to trip, especially for big monsters. Here's the boiled down essential ingrediants for a super effective AoO monster: Kyton/Nomad: Track, (Dodge), (Overchannel), (Psi-Crystal Affinity) Kyton/Nomad: Kyton/Nomad: Combat Expertise Kyton/Nomad: Kyton/Crusader: Kyton/Anarchic Initiate: Karmic Strike, [Chaotic Surge] Kyton/Anarchic Initiate Kyton/Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation] Kyton/Fighter: (Combat Reflexes), Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades Kyton/Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense] Kyton/Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer] Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)] Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Kyton/Illithid Slayer: Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body), (Rolimbar's Gambit) Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6), BONUS FEAT Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Breach Power Resistance] Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity] Psychic Warrior/Illithid Slayer: [Blast Feedback], [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)], BONUS FEAT Psychic Warrior/Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion] Or something like that. It gets you the goodies as early as I could afford it. Namely: 1. If your enemy moves within your threatened range (even 5' steps) they provoke AoOs (Thicket of Blades) 2. If you enemy hits you, they provoke an AoO. (Karmic Strike) 3. If an enemy leaves your threatened space, they provoke an AoO, even if withdrawing. (Thicket of Blades) 4. If you enemy tries to attack you (whether he succeeds or fails), he provokes an AoO (Rolimbar's Gambit). So if you're not making a bunch of AoOs, you could be manifesting powers. With expansion (from Psi-war) your reach will be 15'. So you should have no problems owning the battlefield. Bottom line: When you make a melee character you build for one thing, and one thing only. You want damage, you go for power attack and you spend all your feats on that. You want tactical control, the best thing is AoOs, and you gotta spend all your feats on that.
RadicalTaoist 01-12-07, 07:55 PM	Hmm, but that's not exactly the Chrono-Legionnaire anymore, is it? C-L was all about in and out with pain. I like the build tho. You could call it the Chrono-Molester.
AnsharSeraphim 01-13-07, 01:13 AM	I thought you could only make one attack of opportunity on a single target every round? Was that changed in 3.5? (Edit: Read the new 3.5 Combat Reflexes. Sick.) I should get a pretty decent amount of fun out of reach. If expansion gives 15ft of reach, and Extend reach adds another 5ft, that's 20ft reach, and that's BEFORE you consider my animated chains. If you use the ruling that each animated chain counts as a copy of me (which is essentially true considering the description) and each can use AoOs just like I can, and we're all threatening 10-20ft of reach, then I would actually get 5 AoOs every time they provoke an AoO that's not specific to a target (e.g. robilar's gambit). Isn't there a metapsionic feat that lets me manifest powers when I get attacks of opportunity (opportunistic power or somesuch?). That + Dimensional Twister + Divert Teleport could be a bunch of laughs. With Thicket of Blades couldn't I nail them as they're falling? For Example: Opponent Moves within 20ft = 1 AoO Opponent Moves within 15ft = 1 AoO Opponent Moves within 10ft = 5 AoO (1 from me, 4 from the Dancing Chains) Opponent Moves within 05ft = 4 AoO + Power (4 from Dancing Chains + Dimensional Twister + Divert Teleport) -Opponent Falls 100ft to an adjacent square (10d6 Falling Dmg)- Opponent Falls within 20ft = 1 AoO Opponent Falls within 15ft = 1 AoO Opponent Falls within 10ft = 5 AoO (1 from me, 4 from the Dancing Chains) Opponent Falls within 05ft = 5 AoO (1 from me, 4 from the Dancing Chains) Opponent Tries to Stand = 4 AoO + Power (4 from Dancing Chains + Dimensional Twister + Divert Teleport) Rinse / Repeat? If a combo like that works, and I'm always flanking, etc, because of reach, teleportation, and dancing chains, I'm DEFINITELY going to take Lurker for augmentable sneak attack/etc. Sneak Attacks + Flanking + Teleportation. Yum. Thoughts? -Anshar
HelloRaptor 01-13-07, 02:25 AM	If PrCs like Eldritch Knight (fighter/caster) are disallowed when using Gestalt, why would Illithid Slayer be allowed?
AnsharSeraphim 01-13-07, 02:29 AM	I don't believe its things like Eldritch Knight, its more things like Cerebremancer, etc (things that are designed to give you levels in two caster classes at once). Even in that situation, its always the DM's Discretion, and in this case, Slayer is allowed (its even part of the campaign). -Anshar
AnsharSeraphim 01-13-07, 11:45 AM	Alright, I finished my build (went for the power attack build instead of Karmic Strike, etc, but sneaked combat reflexes in because of a sick combo I'll illustrate below). Hallmarks of the Build: -A Kyton "generates" chains to use as free actions (provided there are enough on the body) and nearby chains return to his body as a free action. -Using Dancing Chains is a Supernatural Ability (Standard Action) that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity -By Using Schism/Control Body/Solicit Psicrystal we get 2 Standard Actions that can both be used for chain control (8 Chains) -Chains are counted as being wielded by the Kyton for feats/attacks/special abilities (Read the Monster Manual)description as well as the Savage Species Entry) -So... Base of 5 Attacks with Full Attack, 2 at full BAB (Kyton Ability) plus 3 Iterative Attacks. Its easy to get 20/15/10/5 at lvl 20 with Gestalt and creative placement of the different class levels. Add Speed and this puts us at 20/20/20/15/10/5. -Assuming Each Chain has Speed/Fleshgrinding/Masterslaying, we get a total of 16 Attacks at full BAB with Dancing Chains (2x 4 Chains per use of the Su Ability, each with Speed). Each of the Chains can join you in your Power Attack+Leap Attack+ShockTrooper(Headless Charge), and since you are the originator of the attacks, you also apply Prescience and other Buffs (Like your circumstance bonus from Psionic Lion's Charge) to your attacks with each chain. -This gives us 22 Attacks (19 at full BAB and 3 Iterative Attacks) Assuming every "second hit" with these weapons is a hit, this means you'll be leaving 14 Chains Fleshgrinding on your target at the end of the round... but wait. It gets better. Provided you win initiative (or use Anticipatory Strike) and delay action with another 8 Chains Animated, every DC 20 Str Check to Remove a Chain provokes Attacks of Opportunity (allowing you to attach more chains), and it doesn't just provoke one attack of opportunity, it provokes 9. 1 from you and 1 from each of your animated chains :D. Trying to remove one chain can result in having 9 more attached to you, and you only need to be within 15 feet (with extend reach) to get your AoOs. -Sick? Just wait. -Every time your opponent actually manages to remove a chain, you speak the command word (free action) and the Masterslaying enchant goes to work, attacking the wielder flatfooted (bah, no sneak attacks). If it hits, it automatically scores a critical (god, I'm so tempted to put souldrinking on these chains at lvl 20). At this point you can either re-animate the chain with your next standard action, or direct it to crawl back on your body (free action, Kyton ability). -Spiked Chains are two handed weapons, so their damage bonus from Power Attack is tripled by the Leap Attack feat, and they benefit greatly from a Strength Bonus (which you'll have plenty of as a Kyton). Because each animated chain is counted as being wielded by you, you'll even get your strength bonuses (as much as it defies logic, force of will I guess?) to each animated chain attack. -- I stacked Lurk Levels in my Gestalt Progression so I ended up with +2d6 Sneak Attack Damage and Augments to get me out of nasty situations (8 Lurk Levels at lvl 20). Because I'm essentially flanking with my animated chains at all times, even 2d6 Sneak Attack Damage quickly adds up (especially with 22 attacks). I also grabbed Opportunity Power, since chances are with multiple 15ft reach weapons I may find a fun opportunity or two to channel an Energy Flash through my chains (metal conductors touching my target). Lurk also gives me access to Sensory Gloom at lvl 1, and while it may prove difficult to land on an opponent later on because of saves/SR it gives me a HUGE tactical advantage with reach weapons (opponents more than 5ft away get full concealment). Using the Slayer's ability to break down SR and the Lurk's augments to damage Wisdom scores it may even be viable at higher levels after a few rounds of combat. With Extend Reach (Lurk 2nd) I'm functioning with a 15ft Reach (and the Kyton/Spiked Chain Ability to ALSO threaten adjacent squares). This means I only need to close to 25ft to initiate leap attack. It also means with my animated chains oriented around me in a circle pattern in a battlefield if I'm not crazy about dumping power points into an alpha strike I'm still an incredibly formidable opponent. I still have the option to initiate trip and disarm attempts with the chains (which I don't really need improved feats for, since they will need at least a 15 ft reach to take their AoOs against me for using the different combat modes). Using Psionic Fly brings the true evil of this build into focus, not to mention Divert Teleport + Dimension Swap to damage and hurl an enemy into the air (and catch him on the way down with multiple chains that attach themselves to him). Using these combos its relatively easy to get near 2k damage a round, which is pretty damn respectable, even for an obviously overpowered gish gestalt concept character (who has to spend about a million gold buying chains) In essence the Kyton Chrono-Legionairre Gestalt does everything the legionairre can do, but it has more attacks (it does lose the Anarchic Initiate levels, which I removed entirely) and can achieve a maxed out BAB more easily with the Gestalt Rules. Using the Chrono Legionairre Melee Build Concept really brought all this together, so I wanted to thank TG and RT yet again for their awesome build. You got my head rolling with ideas. -Anshar