Attribute Min/Max [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attribute Min/Max [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cultjake
06-23-04, 03:13 AM Purpose: This thread is intended to be a discussion of factors in allocating attribute scores for character optimization. This will hopefully aid players in understanding the best choices that can be made when designing characters.

For the sake of a simpler discussion, we will most often use the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), although other stat arrays are welcome.

Please post in the following format:

[Attribute]: discussion
cultjake
06-23-04, 03:22 AM Strength: It is a common min/max error to place too much emphasis on the strength score (warhulk builds aside :) ). It is the primary determinant score for melee adjustment. However, it has been pointed out that strength boosting items and spells are common. It is also worthy to note that a +1 weapon is the equivalent boost to melee adjustment as 2 points of Strength.

Strength plays no part in character development when considering 1st Level benefits.

Power Attack and its chain of feats require 13 Strength.

Strength drives only mundane skills: Swim, Jump and Climb.

It is important to be able to carry the equipment necessary to be effective in your class.
cultjake
06-23-04, 03:32 AM Dexterity: This attribute, within limitations of armor worn, is the primary determinant of ranged attacks and Armor Class. Not being hit by enemies is one method of surviving in D&D.

Dexterity is important for several important skills, notably Tumble and the other roguish skills. Ride is also a Dex skill.

Dexterity imparts no 1st Level benefits or penalties.
cultjake
06-23-04, 03:44 AM Constitution: A character can never have enough hit points. If your DM is good, you will always be in need of more HP.

This attribute has the most long term effect on character survivability than any other. It is the determinant of the Fortitude Save and Hit Points. Most of the Save or Die saves, poison saves, and energy drain saves are Fortitude.

Constitution has an enormous impact on hit points. In general, it is wise to have an even-numbered score at 1st Level, as level raises in Constitution are not retroactive. If by allocation an odd score ends up in Con, 4th level is often best to even it out.

A Cleric, with d8 hit die, and an 18 Constitution will, on average, gain only 1/2 HP per level more from his rolled hit die than his Constitution bonus.

Constitution powers no skills.

Roll With It, a damage reducing feat, requires a 20 Con score.
cultjake
06-23-04, 03:52 AM Intelligence: This score has a serious ramification at 1st Level in terms of skill points. You can gain an additional maxed-out class skill for each bonus point of Intelligence.

Like Constitution, an even score at first level is a good idea except for Wizards, who will be putting level raises into the score anyway.

Finesse fighters often find the 13 from the elite array in their Int score, as this is the minimum for Combat Expertise.

Intelligence also drives some important skills: Scry, Spellcraft and the Knowledge skills.
Himosan
06-23-04, 04:11 AM Intelligence: thot I'd try and sneak this in b4 you got to Wis. You missed two of the most important skills, Search and Disable Device.

Constitution: It powers 1 skill, Concentration.
I'm not sure what you mean by it not being retroactive; while yes, if you died because you were 1 hp short that's not retroactive but I fail to see the difference between that and you dying because you were 1 short on a spot check, melee attack, reflex save (etc.).
catharz
06-23-04, 05:18 AM Using the standard array inherently favors non-spellcasters. Maybe it would be more precise to say that not using the standard array can favor spellcasters.

Originally posted by cultjake
Dexterity: This attribute, within limitations of armor worn, is the primary determinant of ranged attacks and Armor Class. Not being hit by enemies is one method of surviving in D&D.

Dexterity is important for several important skills, notably Tumble and the other roguish skills. Ride is also a Dex skill.

Dexterity imparts no 1st Level benefits or penalties.

Are you forgetting initiative, or is it just not important to you? Winning initiative means either ending the combat without your opponents getting to hit back (at best) or getting a free round's worth of actions (at worst).

Dexterity also helps your reflex save.

Of all non scaling ability scores, Dexterity provides the greatest benefits without considering any other factors (Spellcasting, Divine grace, etc).

Originally posted by cultjake
Constitution has an enormous impact on hit points. In general, it is wise to have an even-numbered score at 1st Level, as level raises in Constitution are not retroactive. If by allocation an odd score ends up in Con, 4th level is often best to even it out.

Notice the part I have italicised? I think most D&D players will notice that it is incorrect.

Originally posted by cultjake
Constitution powers no skills.

This is also untrue: Concentration relies on Constitution, making the ability score doubly important for casters.

As far as I can tell, Constitution and Dexterity are the two 'best' ability scores, but of course a Barbarian gets less benefit from a high Con then a Rogue, and a heavily armored character benefits less from Dexterity.

The mental ability scores are only good for spellcasting (and other special abilities that rely on mental ability scores).

Constitution is inherently better then Int. If you don't belive me, look at how skill points are weighted vs. HP. Then notice that Con also adds to a saving throw.

Dexterity is strictly better then Wisdom: Wisdom adds to some good skills and a saving throw. Dex adds to some good skills, a saving throw, some attacks, initiative, and AC.

Strength is better the Charisma. It should be fairly obvious why.
Funny Slaughter
06-23-04, 05:37 AM ut of course a Barbarian gets less benefit from a high Con then a Rogue

while i dont think that you mean it exactly as you wrote it:
barbarians do get quite much out of a high con-score as their rage is powered by con. and a barbarian flinging out of rage in the middle of a combat is a bad thing...
considering typical barbarian fighting-style a barbarian might even need the extra HP more then a rogue.

gs
Funny
cultjake
06-23-04, 07:33 AM If you take a level raise at 8th level and your Constitution bonus goes up from +0 to +1 as an example, you don't get the 7 hp from the first seven levels when your bonus was still 0 retroactively.
Dain
06-23-04, 07:50 AM If you take a level raise at 8th level and your Constitution bonus goes up from +0 to +1 as an example, you don't get the 7 hp from the first seven levels when your bonus was still 0 retroactively.

Uhm... yes you do? (I don't have my books with me atm, but I'm sure someone else can give you a reference if you don't believe me.).
ck2001wendt
06-23-04, 07:59 AM ------------------------------------------
Catharz:
The mental ability scores are only good for spellcasting (and other special abilities that rely on mental ability scores).
-----------------------------------------

What about the Expert (I notice "Expert" is starting to replace "Skill Monkey" as the term of choice for Rogues...). Experts are powered by Int, especially non-human ones.

In all likelihood, the Expert is going to be the party´s Dungeoneer, Scout, and often a Face as well. This means they likely have to Max:

Disable Device
Search
Spot
Listen
Hide
Move Silently
Open Lock
Tumble
One "Face Skill" (Diplomacy or Gather Info)

That´s 9 right there. Most Rogues multi-class out into something that focuses on Breaking and Entering, Stealth, or Combat, which means they´re paying 10-11 SP a level with CC penalties. That makes a 14-16 Int highly relevant to the Expert. That, and Disable and Search are run off of Int.

Berzlomeion´s Rule #1 of Thievery: "If you find yourself in combat, you´ve already lost."
ck2001wendt
06-23-04, 08:01 AM And from the SRD:

"If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly."

AND

"When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence."

That´s not exactly proof positive, but HP do increase retroactively with Con gain (or loss...:( )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cultjake 06-23-04, 03:13 AM	Purpose: This thread is intended to be a discussion of factors in allocating attribute scores for character optimization. This will hopefully aid players in understanding the best choices that can be made when designing characters. For the sake of a simpler discussion, we will most often use the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), although other stat arrays are welcome. Please post in the following format: [Attribute]: discussion
cultjake 06-23-04, 03:22 AM	Strength: It is a common min/max error to place too much emphasis on the strength score (warhulk builds aside :) ). It is the primary determinant score for melee adjustment. However, it has been pointed out that strength boosting items and spells are common. It is also worthy to note that a +1 weapon is the equivalent boost to melee adjustment as 2 points of Strength. Strength plays no part in character development when considering 1st Level benefits. Power Attack and its chain of feats require 13 Strength. Strength drives only mundane skills: Swim, Jump and Climb. It is important to be able to carry the equipment necessary to be effective in your class.
cultjake 06-23-04, 03:32 AM	Dexterity: This attribute, within limitations of armor worn, is the primary determinant of ranged attacks and Armor Class. Not being hit by enemies is one method of surviving in D&D. Dexterity is important for several important skills, notably Tumble and the other roguish skills. Ride is also a Dex skill. Dexterity imparts no 1st Level benefits or penalties.
cultjake 06-23-04, 03:44 AM	Constitution: A character can never have enough hit points. If your DM is good, you will always be in need of more HP. This attribute has the most long term effect on character survivability than any other. It is the determinant of the Fortitude Save and Hit Points. Most of the Save or Die saves, poison saves, and energy drain saves are Fortitude. Constitution has an enormous impact on hit points. In general, it is wise to have an even-numbered score at 1st Level, as level raises in Constitution are not retroactive. If by allocation an odd score ends up in Con, 4th level is often best to even it out. A Cleric, with d8 hit die, and an 18 Constitution will, on average, gain only 1/2 HP per level more from his rolled hit die than his Constitution bonus. Constitution powers no skills. Roll With It, a damage reducing feat, requires a 20 Con score.
cultjake 06-23-04, 03:52 AM	Intelligence: This score has a serious ramification at 1st Level in terms of skill points. You can gain an additional maxed-out class skill for each bonus point of Intelligence. Like Constitution, an even score at first level is a good idea except for Wizards, who will be putting level raises into the score anyway. Finesse fighters often find the 13 from the elite array in their Int score, as this is the minimum for Combat Expertise. Intelligence also drives some important skills: Scry, Spellcraft and the Knowledge skills.
Himosan 06-23-04, 04:11 AM	Intelligence: thot I'd try and sneak this in b4 you got to Wis. You missed two of the most important skills, Search and Disable Device. Constitution: It powers 1 skill, Concentration. I'm not sure what you mean by it not being retroactive; while yes, if you died because you were 1 hp short that's not retroactive but I fail to see the difference between that and you dying because you were 1 short on a spot check, melee attack, reflex save (etc.).
catharz 06-23-04, 05:18 AM	Using the standard array inherently favors non-spellcasters. Maybe it would be more precise to say that not using the standard array can favor spellcasters. Originally posted by cultjake Dexterity: This attribute, within limitations of armor worn, is the primary determinant of ranged attacks and Armor Class. Not being hit by enemies is one method of surviving in D&D. Dexterity is important for several important skills, notably Tumble and the other roguish skills. Ride is also a Dex skill. Dexterity imparts no 1st Level benefits or penalties. Are you forgetting initiative, or is it just not important to you? Winning initiative means either ending the combat without your opponents getting to hit back (at best) or getting a free round's worth of actions (at worst). Dexterity also helps your reflex save. Of all non scaling ability scores, Dexterity provides the greatest benefits without considering any other factors (Spellcasting, Divine grace, etc). Originally posted by cultjake Constitution has an enormous impact on hit points. In general, it is wise to have an even-numbered score at 1st Level, as level raises in Constitution are not retroactive. If by allocation an odd score ends up in Con, 4th level is often best to even it out. Notice the part I have italicised? I think most D&D players will notice that it is incorrect. Originally posted by cultjake Constitution powers no skills. This is also untrue: Concentration relies on Constitution, making the ability score doubly important for casters. As far as I can tell, Constitution and Dexterity are the two 'best' ability scores, but of course a Barbarian gets less benefit from a high Con then a Rogue, and a heavily armored character benefits less from Dexterity. The mental ability scores are only good for spellcasting (and other special abilities that rely on mental ability scores). Constitution is inherently better then Int. If you don't belive me, look at how skill points are weighted vs. HP. Then notice that Con also adds to a saving throw. Dexterity is strictly better then Wisdom: Wisdom adds to some good skills and a saving throw. Dex adds to some good skills, a saving throw, some attacks, initiative, and AC. Strength is better the Charisma. It should be fairly obvious why.
Funny Slaughter 06-23-04, 05:37 AM	ut of course a Barbarian gets less benefit from a high Con then a Rogue while i dont think that you mean it exactly as you wrote it: barbarians do get quite much out of a high con-score as their rage is powered by con. and a barbarian flinging out of rage in the middle of a combat is a bad thing... considering typical barbarian fighting-style a barbarian might even need the extra HP more then a rogue. gs Funny
cultjake 06-23-04, 07:33 AM	If you take a level raise at 8th level and your Constitution bonus goes up from +0 to +1 as an example, you don't get the 7 hp from the first seven levels when your bonus was still 0 retroactively.
Dain 06-23-04, 07:50 AM	If you take a level raise at 8th level and your Constitution bonus goes up from +0 to +1 as an example, you don't get the 7 hp from the first seven levels when your bonus was still 0 retroactively. Uhm... yes you do? (I don't have my books with me atm, but I'm sure someone else can give you a reference if you don't believe me.).
ck2001wendt 06-23-04, 07:59 AM	------------------------------------------ Catharz: The mental ability scores are only good for spellcasting (and other special abilities that rely on mental ability scores). ----------------------------------------- What about the Expert (I notice "Expert" is starting to replace "Skill Monkey" as the term of choice for Rogues...). Experts are powered by Int, especially non-human ones. In all likelihood, the Expert is going to be the party´s Dungeoneer, Scout, and often a Face as well. This means they likely have to Max: Disable Device Search Spot Listen Hide Move Silently Open Lock Tumble One "Face Skill" (Diplomacy or Gather Info) That´s 9 right there. Most Rogues multi-class out into something that focuses on Breaking and Entering, Stealth, or Combat, which means they´re paying 10-11 SP a level with CC penalties. That makes a 14-16 Int highly relevant to the Expert. That, and Disable and Search are run off of Int. Berzlomeion´s Rule #1 of Thievery: "If you find yourself in combat, you´ve already lost."
ck2001wendt 06-23-04, 08:01 AM	And from the SRD: "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly." AND "When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence." That´s not exactly proof positive, but HP do increase retroactively with Con gain (or loss...:( )