Auntie Paladin/Hexblade/Blackguard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Auntie Paladin/Hexblade/Blackguard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
malaegoth
10-21-04, 07:06 PM So, in theory, Arcane Resistance, Divine Grace, and Dark Blessing all stack since they have different names. So this is the latest revision of my evil asskicker.

Pal = Paladin of Tyranny
Hex = Hexblade
Bkd = Blackguard
Ftr = Fighter
Dod = Disciple of Dispater

1: Pal 1 Power Attack, Cleave
2: Pal 2 Divine Grace
3: Pal 3 Improved Sunder, Divine Health, Aura of Despair
4: Ftr 1 Combat Expertise
5: Ftr 2 Improved Bull Rush
6: Hex 1 Disciple of Darkness
7: Hex 2 Arcane Resistance
8: Hex 3 Mettle
9: Bkd 1 Shock Trooper
10: Bkd 2 Dark Blessing
11: Bkd 3 Aura of Despair
12: Dod 1 Combat Brute

My only concern is whether or not Aura of Despair stacks with itself? Its an unnamed penalty, but I remember someone quoting something that said unnamed stuff stacks with everything but itself. I dunno how it works since I have two separate Auras, but if it works, than in addition to my titanic saves, every enemy near me has -4 to all their saves, meaning I make a pretty good laser targeting system for area affect spells.

I figure I just charge in using my tactical feats doing as much dmg as I can in the first couple rounds, then just absorbing the return fire while the other party members lay down the doom.

I'm thinking the best way to progress this build is to just finish Disciple of Dispater. I think I want Improved Expertise at lvl 15, but my lvl 18 feat is still in the open.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Lusden Veharo
10-21-04, 08:32 PM I'm not sure how much a Paladin looses when he stops being LG, but I do know that two bonuses with the same name never stack, even if they don't have a specific type.
PhoenixInferno
10-21-04, 09:13 PM So, in theory, Arcane Resistance, Divine Grace, and Dark Blessing all stack since they have different names.

I'm not sure how much a Paladin looses when he stops being LG, but I do know that two bonuses with the same name never stack, even if they don't have a specific type.

Some things that are wrong about what has been said:
1) You lose Divine Grace when you change alignment to Evil, so you no longer have Divine Grace at the end of your build.
2) The bonuses come from different unnamed sources, so they do in fact stack.
Eyeless Blond
10-21-04, 09:14 PM Paladins lose everything when they are no longer Lawful Good. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/classes/PALADIN.html) Also, their 3rd level ability is aura of courage, not aura of despair.
Mr. Dog
10-21-04, 09:23 PM It's paladin of tyranny, people.
Unearthed Arcana variant. Lawful evil, IIRC.
malaegoth
10-21-04, 09:48 PM Hence the Pal = Paladin of Tyranny and the Aura of Despair instead of Aura of Courage. Anyway, im mostly looking for feats to take at 15 and 18, and whether or not you guys think two Auras of Despair would stack.
scrollreader
10-21-04, 10:20 PM Shame on you. Taking DoD without improved crit? THAT should be your next feat. ;)
Caelic
10-21-04, 10:22 PM 'Fraid not. You were right the first time around--unnamed bonuses don't stack with themselves. Gaining the same ability from two classes doesn't make it two different abilities.

There's some argument as to whether even differently-named "Divine Grace" type abilities stack, but I'm not sure WHAT the latest "official" word on that is.
malaegoth
10-21-04, 10:24 PM well, I am of the opinion that they wanted the Iron Power ability to reflect a DoD's ability to turn any metal weapon keen, and within the third edition stacking rules, they needed to specify that it was a keen effect, so it did not stack with keen edge, but did stack with improved critical. In 3.5, they made Improved Critical not stack with any keen effect, so despite the wording to the contrary, it is my opinion that the Iron Power ability is not meant to stack with Improved Critical in 3.5, thus I want to avoid it.

*edit*

@ Caelic - So I should drop third level of blackguard and go into DoD early?
scrollreader
10-21-04, 10:50 PM I wouldn't. That third level of blackguard doubles your uses of Divine Might, and any other Divine Feat you pick up.
darczero
10-21-04, 10:55 PM Hence the Pal = Paladin of Tyranny and the Aura of Despair instead of Aura of Courage. Anyway, im mostly looking for feats to take at 15 and 18, and whether or not you guys think two Auras of Despair would stack.

I'd have to say nope. Two different abilities that grant the same ability score bonus to something? That's like saying that you can get your Strength modifier added to damage five times over because some feats say "In addition to your Strength modifier"... Unnamed bonus, right?
Qaetar
10-21-04, 11:54 PM Two different abilities that grant the same ability score bonus to something?

A Monk with the Saint Template gets 2x Wis to AC.
A Mystic Wanderer/Arcane Duelist can get 2x Cha to AC.
Uncanny Blow from EWM nets you 2x Str to Damage.
A Duelist/Bladesinger/Invisible Blade gets you 3x Int to AC.

That's like saying that you can get your Strength modifier added to damage five times over because some feats say "In addition to your Strength modifier"...

You could. If they said, in addition to your Strength modifier, you get x and your Strength modifier. Or, in addition to your Strength modifier, you get your Strength modifier.

"You get x in addition to y" does not mean take the normal y, and add to it x and y again. It means take y and add to it x. If I have three abilities that say add x to y, you add x three times to y.

(Qaetar)
Timespike
10-21-04, 11:59 PM Get Profane lifeleech from Libris Mortis in there someplace.
maven50312
10-22-04, 12:34 AM I don't think that build can even qualify for feats like Divine Might because 3rd level Palladins can't Turn Undead, which is a pre-req isn't it? I don't have Pally of Tyranny in front of me, but I don't think they'd get Turn Undead or some other variant until at least 4th levels like a normal Pally.
scrollreader
10-22-04, 01:17 AM Blackguard gets rebuking at level 3. Allowing him access to divine feats.
However. Sinc the auras don't stack, and divine health is pretty weak, IMO, if you're in an actual party, I'd toss the 3rd PT level to make the build epic ready, with DoD.

Alternatively, and less Tactically Feat Oriented. (Though a bit more Cha synergous)

Paladin of Tyranny 4
Hexblade 3
Blackguard 3
Disciple of Dispater 10

With the following feats:

Power Attack, Cleave
Improved Sunder
Disciple of Darkness
Combat Expertise
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Improved Critical: Falchion

NOTE: The above is RAW. In the game I run, I do not allow both blackguard and Paladin of <insert cause>, It'd be like having a Paladin/Prestige paladin. I also do not allow for Imp Crit to stack with DoD. Both of these are house rules, however. And the triple-grace build is strong versus spells. 95% of the time, you'll ignore spells. Now add a ring of evasion, and a Cloak of Starmantle. Now you ignore 95% of the hits you take, as well. Whoops. :D
malaegoth
10-22-04, 02:10 AM well, I don't know if I'll be allowed to do the Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard combo, I do agree that its basically a paladin/prestige paladin. I'll mess around with it a bit, im thinking pushing Improved Expertise til 18 and picking up Divine Might at 15. I'll look at Libris Mortis friday night, one of my players has a copy of it.

Granted, the build isn't epic ready at 20, but its only 2 levels shy of going into epic DoD levels. If push comes to shove, dropping the third Paladin level for another level of DoD really is looking like the optimal thing to do, and maybe even dropping a level of fighter for DoD and picking up one of the tactical feats late, but I know I definitely want them both.

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming if you guys have anything further.
catharz
10-22-04, 02:21 AM Gaining the same ability from two classes doesn't make it two different abilities.

It dosen't make them two different abilities, but according to Unearthed arcana (with the exception of spellcasting), they stack. So I would say that thats probably the official word.

I don't morally agree with the 3*Divine grace crap, but I still think that as a general rule its better then screwing characters who multiclass with similar (i.e., "in character") PrCs.
Alratan
10-22-04, 06:59 AM How about:

Human Human Paragon 1/Hexblade 5/Horizon Walker 1/Ur-Priest 2/Human Paragon 2/Spelldancer 2/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 7

BAB: +17
Caster level: 16 (cast as 10th level Ur-Priest)

Take Adaptive learning [Perform]

Feats: Combat Casting (6), Dodge (6), Endurance (3), Iron Will (1), Mobility (9), Spell Focus [Evi] (1), Practiced Spellcaster [Ur-Priest] (18), Mounted Combat (9), Extend Spell (12), Persistent Spell (15)

Twice Cha modifer to saves vs. spells, Evasion, Mettle, 9th level spells, and free persistance for non-evocation and necromancy spells. If using UA flaws, Divine Might and Divine Shield improve this build a lot.

This uses the UA Paladin of Tyrannt which has been prestigised in the same yay as the UA normal Paladin.

I would argue that Divine Grace and Dark Blessing don't stack as they are identical abilities with different names, however Arcane Resistance and Divine Grace should, as they are different abiliities, hence different sources.

If you use LA buyback can sell your DM on you being a fallen (evil) BoED half-celestial, and still take human paragon, then go for it, as this build is rather stat intensive.
PhaedrusXY
10-22-04, 07:40 AM well, I am of the opinion that they wanted the Iron Power ability to reflect a DoD's ability to turn any metal weapon keen, and within the third edition stacking rules, they needed to specify that it was a keen effect, so it did not stack with keen edge, but did stack with improved critical. In 3.5, they made Improved Critical not stack with any keen effect, so despite the wording to the contrary, it is my opinion that the Iron Power ability is not meant to stack with Improved Critical in 3.5, thus I want to avoid it.Well, I don't own the BoVD, so I can't comment on this ability specifically. But the updated version of Psychic Weapon Master specifically says that it's increased critical threat range stacks with Improved Crit if you already have the feat. Improved Critical: The psychic weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her weapon of choice's threat range for critical hits.(Found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d )

So if the ability is worded similiarly to that, then it should stack.
malaegoth
10-22-04, 10:29 AM Actually, verbatim, it says 'This ability does not stack with the keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the improved critical feat'

So yes, RAW, it stacks with improved critical, but I feel the spirit of the rules is that it creates a keen effect, which is not intended to stack for 3.5.

Anyway, regardless of the Dark Blessing/Divine Grace cheese and whether or not it stacks, it seems pretty well accepted that two Auras of Despair would not stack, and I think I agree, so it looks like dropping the third level of PT in favor of going into DoD a level early is in order.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malaegoth 10-21-04, 07:06 PM	So, in theory, Arcane Resistance, Divine Grace, and Dark Blessing all stack since they have different names. So this is the latest revision of my evil asskicker. Pal = Paladin of Tyranny Hex = Hexblade Bkd = Blackguard Ftr = Fighter Dod = Disciple of Dispater 1: Pal 1 Power Attack, Cleave 2: Pal 2 Divine Grace 3: Pal 3 Improved Sunder, Divine Health, Aura of Despair 4: Ftr 1 Combat Expertise 5: Ftr 2 Improved Bull Rush 6: Hex 1 Disciple of Darkness 7: Hex 2 Arcane Resistance 8: Hex 3 Mettle 9: Bkd 1 Shock Trooper 10: Bkd 2 Dark Blessing 11: Bkd 3 Aura of Despair 12: Dod 1 Combat Brute My only concern is whether or not Aura of Despair stacks with itself? Its an unnamed penalty, but I remember someone quoting something that said unnamed stuff stacks with everything but itself. I dunno how it works since I have two separate Auras, but if it works, than in addition to my titanic saves, every enemy near me has -4 to all their saves, meaning I make a pretty good laser targeting system for area affect spells. I figure I just charge in using my tactical feats doing as much dmg as I can in the first couple rounds, then just absorbing the return fire while the other party members lay down the doom. I'm thinking the best way to progress this build is to just finish Disciple of Dispater. I think I want Improved Expertise at lvl 15, but my lvl 18 feat is still in the open. Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Lusden Veharo 10-21-04, 08:32 PM	I'm not sure how much a Paladin looses when he stops being LG, but I do know that two bonuses with the same name never stack, even if they don't have a specific type.
PhoenixInferno 10-21-04, 09:13 PM	So, in theory, Arcane Resistance, Divine Grace, and Dark Blessing all stack since they have different names. I'm not sure how much a Paladin looses when he stops being LG, but I do know that two bonuses with the same name never stack, even if they don't have a specific type. Some things that are wrong about what has been said: 1) You lose Divine Grace when you change alignment to Evil, so you no longer have Divine Grace at the end of your build. 2) The bonuses come from different unnamed sources, so they do in fact stack.
Eyeless Blond 10-21-04, 09:14 PM	Paladins lose everything when they are no longer Lawful Good. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/classes/PALADIN.html) Also, their 3rd level ability is aura of courage, not aura of despair.
Mr. Dog 10-21-04, 09:23 PM	It's paladin of tyranny, people. Unearthed Arcana variant. Lawful evil, IIRC.
malaegoth 10-21-04, 09:48 PM	Hence the Pal = Paladin of Tyranny and the Aura of Despair instead of Aura of Courage. Anyway, im mostly looking for feats to take at 15 and 18, and whether or not you guys think two Auras of Despair would stack.
scrollreader 10-21-04, 10:20 PM	Shame on you. Taking DoD without improved crit? THAT should be your next feat. ;)
Caelic 10-21-04, 10:22 PM	'Fraid not. You were right the first time around--unnamed bonuses don't stack with themselves. Gaining the same ability from two classes doesn't make it two different abilities. There's some argument as to whether even differently-named "Divine Grace" type abilities stack, but I'm not sure WHAT the latest "official" word on that is.
malaegoth 10-21-04, 10:24 PM	well, I am of the opinion that they wanted the Iron Power ability to reflect a DoD's ability to turn any metal weapon keen, and within the third edition stacking rules, they needed to specify that it was a keen effect, so it did not stack with keen edge, but did stack with improved critical. In 3.5, they made Improved Critical not stack with any keen effect, so despite the wording to the contrary, it is my opinion that the Iron Power ability is not meant to stack with Improved Critical in 3.5, thus I want to avoid it. edit @ Caelic - So I should drop third level of blackguard and go into DoD early?
scrollreader 10-21-04, 10:50 PM	I wouldn't. That third level of blackguard doubles your uses of Divine Might, and any other Divine Feat you pick up.
darczero 10-21-04, 10:55 PM	Hence the Pal = Paladin of Tyranny and the Aura of Despair instead of Aura of Courage. Anyway, im mostly looking for feats to take at 15 and 18, and whether or not you guys think two Auras of Despair would stack. I'd have to say nope. Two different abilities that grant the same ability score bonus to something? That's like saying that you can get your Strength modifier added to damage five times over because some feats say "In addition to your Strength modifier"... Unnamed bonus, right?
Qaetar 10-21-04, 11:54 PM	Two different abilities that grant the same ability score bonus to something? A Monk with the Saint Template gets 2x Wis to AC. A Mystic Wanderer/Arcane Duelist can get 2x Cha to AC. Uncanny Blow from EWM nets you 2x Str to Damage. A Duelist/Bladesinger/Invisible Blade gets you 3x Int to AC. That's like saying that you can get your Strength modifier added to damage five times over because some feats say "In addition to your Strength modifier"... You could. If they said, in addition to your Strength modifier, you get x and your Strength modifier. Or, in addition to your Strength modifier, you get your Strength modifier. "You get x in addition to y" does not mean take the normal y, and add to it x and y again. It means take y and add to it x. If I have three abilities that say add x to y, you add x three times to y. (Qaetar)
Timespike 10-21-04, 11:59 PM	Get Profane lifeleech from Libris Mortis in there someplace.
maven50312 10-22-04, 12:34 AM	I don't think that build can even qualify for feats like Divine Might because 3rd level Palladins can't Turn Undead, which is a pre-req isn't it? I don't have Pally of Tyranny in front of me, but I don't think they'd get Turn Undead or some other variant until at least 4th levels like a normal Pally.
scrollreader 10-22-04, 01:17 AM	Blackguard gets rebuking at level 3. Allowing him access to divine feats. However. Sinc the auras don't stack, and divine health is pretty weak, IMO, if you're in an actual party, I'd toss the 3rd PT level to make the build epic ready, with DoD. Alternatively, and less Tactically Feat Oriented. (Though a bit more Cha synergous) Paladin of Tyranny 4 Hexblade 3 Blackguard 3 Disciple of Dispater 10 With the following feats: Power Attack, Cleave Improved Sunder Disciple of Darkness Combat Expertise Divine Might Divine Shield Improved Critical: Falchion NOTE: The above is RAW. In the game I run, I do not allow both blackguard and Paladin of <insert cause>, It'd be like having a Paladin/Prestige paladin. I also do not allow for Imp Crit to stack with DoD. Both of these are house rules, however. And the triple-grace build is strong versus spells. 95% of the time, you'll ignore spells. Now add a ring of evasion, and a Cloak of Starmantle. Now you ignore 95% of the hits you take, as well. Whoops. :D
malaegoth 10-22-04, 02:10 AM	well, I don't know if I'll be allowed to do the Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard combo, I do agree that its basically a paladin/prestige paladin. I'll mess around with it a bit, im thinking pushing Improved Expertise til 18 and picking up Divine Might at 15. I'll look at Libris Mortis friday night, one of my players has a copy of it. Granted, the build isn't epic ready at 20, but its only 2 levels shy of going into epic DoD levels. If push comes to shove, dropping the third Paladin level for another level of DoD really is looking like the optimal thing to do, and maybe even dropping a level of fighter for DoD and picking up one of the tactical feats late, but I know I definitely want them both. Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming if you guys have anything further.
catharz 10-22-04, 02:21 AM	Gaining the same ability from two classes doesn't make it two different abilities. It dosen't make them two different abilities, but according to Unearthed arcana (with the exception of spellcasting), they stack. So I would say that thats probably the official word. I don't morally agree with the 3*Divine grace crap, but I still think that as a general rule its better then screwing characters who multiclass with similar (i.e., "in character") PrCs.
Alratan 10-22-04, 06:59 AM	How about: Human Human Paragon 1/Hexblade 5/Horizon Walker 1/Ur-Priest 2/Human Paragon 2/Spelldancer 2/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 7 BAB: +17 Caster level: 16 (cast as 10th level Ur-Priest) Take Adaptive learning [Perform] Feats: Combat Casting (6), Dodge (6), Endurance (3), Iron Will (1), Mobility (9), Spell Focus [Evi] (1), Practiced Spellcaster [Ur-Priest] (18), Mounted Combat (9), Extend Spell (12), Persistent Spell (15) Twice Cha modifer to saves vs. spells, Evasion, Mettle, 9th level spells, and free persistance for non-evocation and necromancy spells. If using UA flaws, Divine Might and Divine Shield improve this build a lot. This uses the UA Paladin of Tyrannt which has been prestigised in the same yay as the UA normal Paladin. I would argue that Divine Grace and Dark Blessing don't stack as they are identical abilities with different names, however Arcane Resistance and Divine Grace should, as they are different abiliities, hence different sources. If you use LA buyback can sell your DM on you being a fallen (evil) BoED half-celestial, and still take human paragon, then go for it, as this build is rather stat intensive.
PhaedrusXY 10-22-04, 07:40 AM	well, I am of the opinion that they wanted the Iron Power ability to reflect a DoD's ability to turn any metal weapon keen, and within the third edition stacking rules, they needed to specify that it was a keen effect, so it did not stack with keen edge, but did stack with improved critical. In 3.5, they made Improved Critical not stack with any keen effect, so despite the wording to the contrary, it is my opinion that the Iron Power ability is not meant to stack with Improved Critical in 3.5, thus I want to avoid it.Well, I don't own the BoVD, so I can't comment on this ability specifically. But the updated version of Psychic Weapon Master specifically says that it's increased critical threat range stacks with Improved Crit if you already have the feat. Improved Critical: The psychic weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her weapon of choice's threat range for critical hits.(Found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d ) So if the ability is worded similiarly to that, then it should stack.
malaegoth 10-22-04, 10:29 AM	Actually, verbatim, it says 'This ability does not stack with the keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the improved critical feat' So yes, RAW, it stacks with improved critical, but I feel the spirit of the rules is that it creates a keen effect, which is not intended to stack for 3.5. Anyway, regardless of the Dark Blessing/Divine Grace cheese and whether or not it stacks, it seems pretty well accepted that two Auras of Despair would not stack, and I think I agree, so it looks like dropping the third level of PT in favor of going into DoD a level early is in order.