Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ninjarabbit 02-06-04, 06:36 PM	For a bit a fun and off a dare, I am going to make a character with five 12's and one 13 (25 point build) in his stats. I am leaning toward to go mostly with a human rogue with 2 levels of ranger (archery) and put the 13 in dex and bump that up, but I am open to other ideas (phb only please). Other ideas I am toying with are a human rogue/cleric (bumping wis, even levels, luck and trickery or magic domains) and a human roguex/ranger2 (archery)/barb2/wiz3/cleric3 (luck and trickery). I'll figure out the feats and skills after I'm certain of which direction I want to go.
P33KAJ3W 02-06-04, 06:46 PM	When did this become the "un" min-max boards
balefire42 02-06-04, 07:42 PM	His request is min/maxing... He wants to minimize the weaknes of having terrible stats, and maximize combat effectiveness or whatever. You have access to the dungeon master's guide, a dragon disciple build might work fairly well as the stat boosts will be very useful.
P33KAJ3W 02-06-04, 07:55 PM	Originally posted by balefire42 His request is min/maxing... He wants to minimize the weaknes of having terrible stats, and maximize combat effectiveness or whatever. You have access to the dungeon master's guide, a dragon disciple build might work fairly well as the stat boosts will be very useful. Oh thats a god Idea take a class to make the stats better... ...why not just use good stats from the start I have an Idea! Use th commoner class and help your whole party to suck!
catharz 02-06-04, 08:03 PM	Seems like a Jack-of-all-trades sort of build. Here is one bit of advice: Don't go for stat-stacking abilities. Rogue does seem like the best class to use, the benefits of well rounded stats are greatest when you need to rely on them all. A few levels of Bard woulden't hurt, nor would some of the odder rogue-ish utility PrCs (Dungeon delver, Mole, Magic filcher, Spymaster). You won't rock the combat house, but you probably won't be a liability either, and in non-combat situations you might actually shine. You could even use your stat boosts to get 13s in all ability scores by 20th level, and take advantage of all the feats that require 13+ in an ability score.
ninjarabbit 02-06-04, 08:26 PM	For the record, this is min-maxing within a given set of rules (the rules given in the dare). I should explain the rules further, only races allowed are human and half-elf (no racial stat adjustments) and no prc's. Anyways after thinking, the best classes would be bard, ranger, and rogue for these stats. Now I'm leaning either toward a pure bard (bumping cha of course) or a rogue/cleric (bumping dex and wis) with trickery and luck domains and putting the 13 in wis. My best bet seems to be making a support character with lots of skills that use all the stats, but if anyone has a good idea I'm all ears.
Tytalus 02-06-04, 08:40 PM	Originally posted by P33KAJ3W Oh thats a god Idea take a class to make the stats better... ...why not just use good stats from the start I have an Idea! Use th commoner class and help your whole party to suck! You are missing the point. He asked to min/max his character within a given set of constraints - that is a perfectly suitable request for the min/max board. To the character in question, Bard/Rouge are probably best suited (or a Ranger focusing on ranged combat), as has been pointed out alread. However, just for fun: you can even pull of a wizard that concentrates on utility and battlefield control (i.e., non-save spells). If you take Craft Wondrous Item, you will even be able to make sure you have the Int to cast higher level spells when you qualify.
RabidWeasel 02-06-04, 08:40 PM	These stats are fine, I've played in a lot of campaigns with 25 point buy with no hassle. The fact that you have to use well rounded stats is a bit of a bother, though. At first glance, I'd recommend a human fighter/rogue. Put your 13 into str and use a longsword and shield. Your normal damage output will be pitiful but when sneak attacks come round you'll be pretty good and your well rounded stats will give you decent saves. The fighter levels are a big boost for extra feats that give low-level survivability, more HP, and better to hit.
P33KAJ3W 02-06-04, 08:44 PM	Cool time to post my Min/Max this 15pt buy commoner build! ...oh wait I don ont have a Min/Max this 15pt buy commoner build!
Sisyfos 02-06-04, 08:49 PM	Human cleric 12 12 12 12 13 12 1: Weapon prof: comp. longbow, Point-blank shot + 2 domains 3: rapid shot 4: +1 to wis (14) 6: Zen archery (CW - no range limitation -> dex becomes dumb stat) 8: +1 to wis (15) 9: Extend spell 12: Persistent spell, +1 to wis (16) 15: Precise shot Now, if you get some of the required feats from domains, then you can push that precise shot a lot earlier. The wis progression stays ahead of your spell progression until level 11, when you'd need to wait for a level to get the 6th level spells. This is not a problem though as "permanent" enhancement bonuses allow you to memorize the spells anyhow. Get a ring of wisdom +4 for example (should be possible at this level) and your wisdom will be high enough for all the spells you'll need. Very late in the career you can boost it with inherent bonuses. I think this option is a lot better than those other options discussed so far. Your character will be deadly throughout his career. Sisyfos
rollplayer 02-06-04, 09:20 PM	Druid! This is assuming that you can find, buy, or make an +2 wisdom item by level 11. Druid is the least stat dependent class in the game and arguably the most powerful. Some of your best abilities, wildshape and animal companion, aren't stat dependent. The druids best spell at most levels is SNA which isn't dependent on high stats either. You can play a second rate rogue or fighter that lives by their wits. You could play a support wizard or cleric that is scared to death of combat. OR you can contend for 'strongest member of the party' bragging rights and play a druid.
catharz 02-06-04, 09:28 PM	Wizards and Druids are the least Stat-dependant classes in the game. However, taking that to mean that they are perfect for a character with low, well rounded stats is a gross misconception. The strength of a primary spellcaster (Druid and wizard, or to a lesser extend Cleric and Sorceror) is needing only one good ability score, and the ability to ignore any bad ones. It dosen't matter much if a Wizard or Druid has a Strength score of 5, they can always Polymorph or Wild shape (and they generally don't need heavy EQ anyway). To a lesser extent, Con and Dex don't matter either. If they have a low Cha score, they can still cast charm person. However, to be a successful primary spellcaster, you still need at least one 15+ ability score. This character dosen't. End of story.
Sisyfos 02-06-04, 09:30 PM	cleric that is scared to death of combat. Well, the cleric I presented has no need to be scared to death of combat. With right domains he can stay in his anti-life shell and shoot away. Your druid idea is ok, but it is in no way superior to what I suggested. Either way, cleric archer or druid: those stats are good enough. (Druid is viable if they are using the ruling that the new form's CON is used to determine hitpoints.) Originally posted by catharz However, to be a successful primary spellcaster, you still need at least one 15+ ability score. This character dosen't. End of story. This definitely is not the end of story. All you need for your spellcasting stat is to stay ahead of level demands if you do not intend to go with DC spells. Enhancement bonuses and inherent bonuses are allowed to qualify for higher level spells (3.5 faq was the source I think) so 13 is enough as was proven. Cleric archer works fine. Prove otherwise and then you can say "end of story". Sisyfos
nihility 02-06-04, 10:44 PM	Like Sisyfos said, you can't go wrong with cleric. The cleric archer has all manner of advantages, as usual. No matter what you do, you should keep in mind that a 12 CON usually fares poorly on the front line. Lucky rolls, good tactics, and a helpful caster to buff you could make even this viable though. Personally, my rule of thumb is: when in doubt, cleric. If you go with rogue, I would emphasize utility and social abilities. A large diplomacy modifier is great no matter what your hitpoints and attack bonuses are, and it's great at high levels. I'd consider starting with the ol' Rogue 16/ Ranger 2/ Fighter 1/ Barbarian 1 (or ditch the Barb and get another fighter). This has nice utility on a number of fronts. To be really useful in a wide variety of situations, I'd like to see the following: social ability, trapfinding, ranged combat, melee support ability, tracking, secondary healing, and scouting. We can accomplish all of this with a rogue/ranger. Good cutoff points for the ranger are levels 2, 6, and 11, while rogue is good to ditch at 2, 10, 13, and 16. Depending on which things you want to maximize, you can mix them in different ratios; I think I'd go rogue 14, ranger 6, dropping into ranger from time to time to jack up survival. If you could take the cosmopolitan from FR, I'd say go back to Rogue 16/ Ranger 2/ Fighter 1/ Barbarian 1. Edit: I'd love to not have the dead rogue 14 sitting there, but I can't seem to do much with it. Ranger 7/Rogue 13 would probably be better.
Jell_Moo 02-06-04, 11:05 PM	My first inclination is to go with a Rogue. A Bard is the second choice, but I find Bards slightly more stat dependent, so I would say that Rogue is the way to go. Rogue's are unique in that they don't need any 1 stat to be very high in order to succeed. What they need are several stats that are decent. I would plug your 13 into either Dex or Cha and then build from there. Dex will help you with combat and several skills, while Cha would make you more socially oriented and would give a boost to Use Magic Device. Either wy is viable, but personally I would go with the Cha route (mostly it's personal taste). Personally, I wouldn't multiclass, I'd go with a straight Rogue. Your skills will be the biggest asset you have, and adding combat ability, while nice, isn't really the best way to direct the character, as you don't really have the stats for it. The only real reson I'd multiclass is to get better armor profs (I'm iffy on that idea, and to gain proficiency with shields. I would stay out of melee altogether, and focus on archery. Don't blow too many feats on archery though, just get the basics. Precise and Point Blank Shot, and maybe Rapid Shot. I'd stop there. Race wise, human is simply much better than Half elf simply for that extra skill point. The bonus feat is sweet, but I love that skill point.
nihility 02-06-04, 11:16 PM	Note that I'm not advocating Ranger/Rogue for combat, though that is certainly a plus. Instead, my primary concern is to add tracking and a divine spell list to the mix of abilities, and thus allow the character to cover a huge number of bases that every party needs. That said, you could do worse than Rogue 20. Overall, I still like Sisyfos's cleric angle the most. When in doubt, go for the best.
Vysirez 02-06-04, 11:51 PM	You could try a druid shifter type. Either using one of the versions of the shifter PRC. Or just going druid/Natures warrior/Warshaper. That way you wouldnt have to worry about the low wisdom too much. You would still want to boost it a bit but you would only need a 15 or 16 in the long run. You could still be a fairly effective melee combatant with some spellcasting.
Elmaster of Thay 02-06-04, 11:53 PM	Ignore me, I just need a lot of cofee or a week of sleep
rollplayer 02-07-04, 01:18 AM	If you have access to Persistent Spell (this feat has been banned in my group) then the cleric archer is a powerful choice. If you don't have access to that feat then I think the cleric archer falls behind the druid starting around level 8 and the gap will just grow. Persistent Spell is rumored to be getting an update soon, and the changes I've seen talked about will make the cleric archer, just another archer. Without 3.0 Persistent Spell your just a cleric with sub-optimal archery feats. A high casting stat is very important for wizards, sorcerers, and bards, but druids and clerics can get by without it. I think SNA is often the best spell for a druid at any level and doesn't rely on high spell DCs.
Steelbreze 02-07-04, 02:18 AM	Originally posted by Elmaster of Thay Ok, using only core books... Orc Str 16 (+4) Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 (-2) Wis 10 (-2) Cha 11 (-2) Bard 1/Barbarian1/Bard +3/Red Dragon Disciple 10/ Stats at level 15 Str 26 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 14 Plus half dragon qualities and wings. Not bad for your "average" bard. But if you are limiting it to phb only... Half/Orc Barbarian 20 Str 15 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10 And put all the level stats bonuses to str. Perhaps you should read ALL of the posts and then edit accordingly. :angel: Originally posted by ninjarabbit For the record, this is min-maxing within a given set of rules (the rules given in the dare). I should explain the rules further, only races allowed are human and half-elf (no racial stat adjustments) and no prc's
Elmaster of Thay 02-07-04, 02:52 AM	Originally posted by Steelbreze Perhaps you should read ALL of the posts and then edit accordingly. :angel: Mmm.. good point, I missed the second post. :embarrass
Caelic 02-07-04, 11:15 AM	A counter-question: When did this become the "Wah, wah, my stats aren't high enough so I won't play" board? A good min/maxer can create a potent character out of just about anything. No, it won't be as powerful as if it had straight 18's, but that's not the point. A min/maxer makes the most of what he has. A powergamer whines that what he has isn't enough. Taking a look at the build: as long as the GM is operating under similar rules (ie, not every NPC is min/maxed and templated to the gills,) this character can do absolutely fine. He has no significant weaknesses, although he also has no significant strengths. I agree that a cleric or druid is probably your best best. Sisyfos' suggestion of an archer cleric is a good one. If shooting for a druid, I'd consider (in the long run, if you can eventually go outside of the PHB...I wasn't entirely clear on that from the first post) Warshaper and Nature's Warrior. You're never going to be Spellcasting Gawd, so you might as well emphasize what you CAN do well. WIth either build, your character will probably not be the star of the show as a fighter or as a spellcaster--but he'll be a solid backup in both of those areas, which can be just as valuable as being the best at one.
Caelic 02-07-04, 11:21 AM	Wait, wait, wait. I'm a ninny. PHB only, you say? This is easily doable. What you need to do is start off as a Venerable character--I'd suggest a Dwarf, for the Con bonuses and the fact that he won't drop dead of old age quickly. Your starting stats will thus be: STR: 6 DEX: 6 CON: 8 INT: 15 WIS: 16 CHA: 13 You're going to absolutely SUCK in physical combat until you get Wild Shape, but after that, it won't be too bad--and you'll be ahead of the curve for learning spells. Actually, Old might be a better starting point. That would give you: STR: 9 DEX: 9 CON: 11 INT: 14 WIS: 15 CHA: 12 This still gives you enough Wisdom to hit ninth level spells on time, without making you quite such a feeb when you're in Dwarf form. The bonus skill points from Int will be helpful, and Charisma doesn't exactly hurt. Besides, the idea of playing a cranky old Dwarf who constantly complains about how kids nowadays don't know what REAL adventuring is like is kinda fun. :)
Balthanon 02-07-04, 01:01 PM	Originally posted by Caelic Wait, wait, wait. I'm a ninny. PHB only, you say? This is easily doable. What you need to do is start off as a Venerable character--I'd suggest a Dwarf, for the Con bonuses and the fact that he won't drop dead of old age quickly. He wanted a human, half-elf, or other creature without stat bonuses/penalties actually.
Caelic 02-07-04, 01:07 PM	Well, you could still do it with a human or half-elf. I personally don't like the spectre of irrevocable death in a few decades, and the Con penalty will hurt, but it's definitely doable. Where do you see "I want a race without stat bonuses or penalties," by the way? I see where he said he was leaning towards Human, but I see nothing indicating that he wasn't willing to consider other PHB races.
Balthanon 02-07-04, 01:34 PM	First paragraph of his second post, "I should explain the rules further, only races allowed are human and half-elf (no racial stat adjustments) and no prc's."
ninjarabbit 02-07-04, 04:41 PM	Thanks for the ideas. I really like Sisyfos's cleric archer, but I can't use anything from CW just the phb for feats so zen archery is out, persistent spell is banned in the campaign, and I doubt I'd be getting any stat enhancing items unless I make it myself, maybe you give me a revised build, I'd be grateful. I won't use a druid because the wild shape does go against the spirit of this dare. A friend of mine suggested a bard/barbarian or a cleric/barbarian but I'm still leaning toward the rogue/ranger or cleric/rogue, maybe I should go cleric/rogue/ranger, but I am open to good ideas, so please keep the ideas and builds coming, I have about a week before I need a final build. Let me restate the terms of this dare so there are no questions. Races- only human or half-elf, only feats, spells, and skills or anything else from the phb (no books of munchkin please), no prc's, a build preferably that maximizes the fact that I have even stats. Good luck and happy building
PhaedrusXY 02-07-04, 05:01 PM	Use the cleric archer build, but take Craft Wondrous Item instead of Zen Archery. Then make your own stat boosting items as needed. You can also eventually make Tomes to give yourself Inherant bonuses. My personal favorite for Domains with a cleric-archer is Travel, but there are other good ones also. Trickery and Luck are two of them.
Sisyfos 02-07-04, 05:19 PM	Human cleric 12 12 12 12 13 12 1: Weapon prof: comp. longbow, Point-blank shot + 2 domains 3: rapid shot 4: +1 to wis (14) 6: Extend spell 8: +1 to wis (15) 9: Precise shot 12: Quicken spell, +1 to wis (16) 15: FREE (Craft wondrous?) 18: FREE This is an example posted by Lago about the mechanisms of the general build without persistent spell: The Clerical Archer has been woefully neglected in this edition. I do not understand that. Human Cleric 20 Domains: Time (Or the Luck or Magic domain), Trickery Stat Balance: Wis, Cha, Con, Str, Int, Dex 0 Point Blank Shot 1 Rapid Shot 3 Zen Archery 6 Extend Spell 9 Persistent Spell (Pick up Quicken Spell, since this feat is about to change) 12 Power Attack 15 Divine Might 18 Craft Wondrous Item Notable Equipment: Unslotted bracers of archery, lesser. Slotted bracers of archery, greater. Rod of extension, greater; +1 Bow of Defending, Greater Wounding (MM2), Flaming, Frost, Shocking. Boots of haste. 50 +1 Arrows of Spell-storing. Scrolls of contingency. Basic Tactics: If Persistent spell isn't allowed, devotes a round to getting his ass-kicking on. Casts righteous might from a contigency spell (from the time domain, or, if it's unavailable, buy a scroll of it and use the 'moment of prescience' spell from the luck domain to pump your UMD or use the magic domain power). Casts a quickened divine power. Casts divine favor (in case you don't have a round to spare, you need this spell the least out of the triad. Cast it quickened next round). Since he has the polymorph any object spell, he spends all day in planetar form. Remember that multiple changes to size do not stack, so he's no bigger than a large creature and thus should fit into all dungeons. Then he shoots things. His arrows of spell-storing have searing lights in them, and he's expected to have a minimum charisma bonus of +8. And his bow is super-mighty. Since arrow and bow bonuses don't stack, he casts greater magic weapon on both of his equipment and channels the wasted enhancement bonus on his bow into defense. So his damage bonus, at full power, is.... 2d8 (Bow) + 11 (Mighty) + 8 (Charisma) + 6 (Divine Favor) + 5 (Enhancement) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) + 1 (Bracers of Archery) + 3d6 (Elementals) + 5d8 (Searing Light) For an average of... 74 damage + 2 constitution damage per arrow shot. And he gets six of them, at a really high attack bonus (20 BAB + 5 Enhancement -1 Size +2 Bracers + 1 Point Blank Shot + 6 Divine Favor + 12 Wisdom, for a total of +45, meaning that even the last shot hits at +30.). If he can't afford the scrolls, it'll take him no more than a surprise round to get that stuff back online, anyway. Of course, if you have persistent spell, it's SO on. This is just to placate the people who don't get persistent spell in their games. Has gigantic amounts of damage reduction, AC, attack bonuses, and hp, and even has regeneration to boot. If his buffs get dispelled, he can throw up a time stop to put all of his stuff back up.