Post/Author/DateTime	Post
King Uther 11-03-03, 12:53 AM	Sometimes I look at the boards because looking at ways to optimize characters sparks my imagination as a player, and especially as a DM. I was reading a challenge set forth by someone on the epic boards to create five 50th level characters for some sort of tournament. I didn't really give it another. Then I came to a realization: I am a geek. And crunching the numbers for optimum damage seems fun. But I didn't want to do anything obvious. So I came up with a Paladin 39/Iajitsu Master 11 combo. Obviously there is some degree of synergy between them, but in this build the focus is on Paladin. Why? Well, here's how it works. Feats: EWP Katana Quick Draw Skill Focus Divine Might(really unnecessary) Power Critical(Just for a little extra damage) Prerequisites and anything that suits you Epic feats Great Smiting(15 times) Improved Iajitsu focus As a level 50 character, you have access to funds that can buy you anything you desire. Therefore it is reasonable that you could acquire a 50 Strength and Charisma by this point. It is also possible you could..........purchase a ring of a skill +100. Now I'll break down the damage die. Katana: 1d10(5) +20(STR) +20(Divine Might) x2(Power Critical) = 90 Average damage. Smite: 39(Pal level) x16(Great Smiting bonuses) = 624 Iajitsu: 30d6(Average roll 163 and Improved Iajitsu) + 600(CHA) x2(11th level Iajitsu Master ability Echoes of the Edge) = 690 +690 = 1380. Total Average damage: 90 + 624 + 1380 = 2094 average damage. Does this make me geeky enough?
JosephKell 11-03-03, 12:58 AM	Iajitsu focusLame
King Uther 11-03-03, 01:23 AM	It's almost ridiculous. I'd like to see some other ways to push damage that high. Or even compare.
draegl0th 11-03-03, 01:30 AM	lol. that's for a 50th level character.
Laelenie 11-03-03, 04:39 AM	I can do almomst as much with a 20th level character... and NOT with the Otto's ubercharge build... (which requires LOT of preparation)
Gellion 11-03-03, 06:20 AM	I have seen a 16th level Cleric build that could do 54,000 points of damage.
Jeryg 11-03-03, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by King Uther Total Average damage: 90 + 624 + 1380 = 2094 average damage. and i can cast a slay living at your wannabe paladin at level 9 while he is still chasing evil farmers who steal other's crop... remember : you'll never reach level 50 anyway. so why bother.
Polymorph 11-03-03, 08:48 AM	come on everyone, as he mentioned back there, this is just a funny calculation and not a gamebreaking and partybalancedestroying plan to exploit the hell out of the system. I am kinda curious about how much damage one could possibly do and in which fashion. Moreover, I would find it even more interesting to limit the character level to 20, to make this thread a bit more realistic ;) Insert creative ideas/builds below :smirk:
Ivarrius 11-03-03, 08:54 AM	really though... there is no need to be so rude to him just because he took the time to post that Damage Build. That is really unfair. Either post something nice, something constructive or just don't post. God. Nice work King Uther... now try to lower the level to say 20, and see what you can come up with for Damage. That is the main focus of Optimization, to optimize or min/max the best with the least, and still attempt to make it playable. Let's see what you can do :)
Dorian H 11-03-03, 09:14 AM	Well, I wouldn't like to be charged by this one, except perhaps with a ring of time that would allow me to bring back an old scroll of 2nd edition stoneskin. More seriously, isn't there a +6 cap on the stat boost an item may give ?
Zombie Lord 11-03-03, 09:30 AM	Sure, if you never look at epic items.
Funny Slaughter 11-03-03, 10:16 AM	a challenge at CL 50 is nothing more then a joke, the possibilities are growing with each level you get and are nearly out of control after around lvl 30. thats one of the reasons builds over here are mostly limited to lvl 20. you have access to funds that can buy you anything you desire so where is the challenge? all the epic-stuff is up o the DM, the ELH is just a guideline how to manage it. its getting really hard to do this, even at CL 30. Paladin 39/Iajitsu Master 11 mixing up OA and paladins which does not exist there is kind of strange. and giving an average damage for iajitsu is totally off since it is limited to your first strike unless you bend the rules around your little finger a few times. i found ottos uber-charger build very imprssive even with me not being interested in this number-crunching. if you are interested in the most possible done physical damage by a char just make a thread where you beat this build or put up a different. at CL 20 (or lower) please. anyhow, in my opinion damage output is one of the most less important things in high levels. and i also doubt that a non-caster can, in any way, beat the things a wizboy is able to do with a +100 spellcraft item... gs Funny
rich2939 11-03-03, 01:29 PM	Originally posted by Gellion I have seen a 16th level Cleric build that could do 54,000 points of damage. Please share...
Scooby 11-03-03, 02:02 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell Lame I second that.
Nyte 11-03-03, 02:42 PM	Originally posted by Gellion I have seen a 16th level Cleric build that could do 54,000 points of damage. Please share it! :angel: *drool*
Otto the Bugbear 11-03-03, 05:56 PM	I remember one contest we had that was limited to straight class casters for maximum damage output over a 10 round span. It was before 3.5, but it was kinda fun to play around with. The loooooong prep time on the uber charge build is prohibitive, so not much use in a "real" environment. The contest I mention you had to cast short duration spells as the battle went on, making it a real dilema. Although the Iajitsu (sp?) build is nothing new on this board, King Uther was probably proud to have discovered it, thus this thread. Funny's right about the level 20 thing. While there's nothing wrong with putting up epic builds, once those levels are achieved it really just becomes a matter of... well... silliness. IMO I also would be very interested in seeing this 54,000 damage 16th level cleric. I find it highly dubious that it could generate that much damage with an attack. Unless of course you're talking about the endless realm of orcs piled to the sky and using some large area spell to deal a bunch of them the required 5 points of damage. Cheers Otto :)
Gellion 11-03-03, 06:04 PM	Originally posted by Nyte Please share it! :angel: *drool* Here it is, it was posted on another forum. I am not sure if it even works though. Suicidal Demon Bombing Character: NE Lich Cleric 13/hierophant 3 (ECL 20) with the travel and evil domains, and spell power x3. Staff of Gate: 364,750 gp 20 Beads of Karma(15 self-created): 250,000 gp Lich's Phylactery: 120,000 Total : 734,750 (and 16,800 xp spent) Activate all 20 Beads of Karma - this takes two minutes and gives you a caster level of 100 for evil spells. In the time you have left before the beads of karma start wearing off, use up all the charges in the staff, calling 5 Balors every time. This gives you a tidy little army of 250 Balors. You still have almost three minutes before the beads start wearing off, so you can take your time choosing a target. Once you have chosen a victim, you and all the balors greater teleport to whatever/whoever your target is, keeping all of the balors within 50 ft of you. Once you have appeared at your destination, you delay your action until after the balors, and command all the balors to summon more balors. This doubles the size of your balor army to 500. Once all the demons are there, you use your delayed action to cast Dictum - automatically killing all the balors within 40 ft of you, who promptly explode for 100 points of damage, causing a chain reaction where all the other Balors explode as well. You should be able to fit 500 balors within a 50ft radius sphere [volume of a sphere that size is 523,598 cubic feet, and if you consider a balor to be occupying a space with a radius of 6' (as they're 12 ft tall) you can fit 578 balor-volumes into that sphere]. This means that you have a blast area of a 100' diameter sphere where anything in that sphere takes 50,000 points of damage, or 25,000 if it makes 500 separate DC 30 Reflex Saves. There's wildly varying amounts of damage as you move outward from that sphere, but anything within 150' of you is still taking some balor blast damage. The fun part is that the damage is all non-magical energy (death throes is an extroadinary ability), so spell resistance/magic immunity/antimagic field all won't help. Of course, you take this damage as well, but you don't care - you're a lich and you'll just reform in 1d10 days. Alternately, you can spread your balors out in a disc with greater distance between them, so that the chain reaction of balor-bombs spreads the damage over a vastly wider area. I havent bothered working it out, but you could probably get at least several hundred damage to everything within a few thousand feet of you.
Ivarrius 11-03-03, 06:27 PM	And that is more realistic than a 50th level character?
Old French Admiral 11-03-03, 06:31 PM	Damn. That's sweet. Someone try to find a fault with it, so we can know if it's legal. If it is, I may just have to have to make a new NPC bent on nuking the world's biggest cities... You know, that Lich guy could kill an entire pantheon...
eudas 11-03-03, 06:31 PM	it's definitely more innovative than a 50th level Iajitsu master.. eudas
King Uther 11-03-03, 06:35 PM	The purpose of this was to have a little fun. The idea of a Paladin mixed with an Iajitsu master is absurd. So is a 50th level character. Once you go into an Epic Level campaign, everything starts to get unrealistic. Not to mention that most DMs I have ever seen don't roleplay most creatures well in battle. Especially difficult things like dragons. I don't think 4 level 20 characters should ever kill a Great Wyrm Dragon of any variety. Th dragon would see the characters coming, plan an ambush, always be flying, cast the best spells possible, and kill anyone who comes in their "dungeon." But, hey, that's just me.
JosephKell 11-03-03, 06:36 PM	And it will get you a terrible reputation with Fiends... you better have some sort of pact with a Fiend above a Balor... or you will be attacked by the forces of the lower planes... and you NEED those forces to survive the waves of Celestials that come to hunt you down...
Funny Slaughter 11-03-03, 06:44 PM	Activate all 20 Beads of Karma how exactly can somebody get to the thought that those would stack? and, btw, in 3.5 gate would cost XP, making this extremely costly... I remember one contest we had that was limited to straight class casters for maximum damage output over a 10 round span. yep, that was indeed a funny contest. i think it was like this: you are teleported to an infinite plane with goblins, every 5ft a goblin. every goblin has x hitpoints. after 10 rounds you are teleported back. how many goblins can you kill? i am not sure, i think the winner did something with multiple enlarged quickened cones of cold in conjunction with cloudkills or something... this balor-idea, now, thats just this stuff all the kiddies over at enworld come with and say its min/max :) gs Funny
mean_liar 11-03-03, 06:48 PM	(just imagine Funny Slaughter's post retyped with different word choices and you'd get about what I posted)
draegl0th 11-03-03, 06:55 PM	Yea, a Paladin/Iajitsu Master IS absurd. It is specifically stated in OA that Paladins are not supposed to exist. And why is this build worth mentioning? Do a search on the epic board, there's like 100 far, far, far more menacing builds at CL50.
Otto the Bugbear 11-03-03, 07:04 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter how exactly can somebody get to the thought that those would stack? You can't of course. yep, that was indeed a funny contest. i think it was like this: you are teleported to an infinite plane with goblins, every 5ft a goblin. every goblin has x hitpoints. after 10 rounds you are teleported back. how many goblins can you kill? i am not sure, i think the winner did something with multiple enlarged quickened cones of cold in conjunction with cloudkills or something... this balor-idea, now, thats just this stuff all the kiddies over at enworld come with and say its min/max :) gs Funny Actually, it was the one where you fought a white dragon and it was replaced when it was killed. Any carry-over damage would be applied to the next dragon. I don't remember what age category, but you had to deal with being attacked and attacking at the same time. If you died, no more damage being delt, so your contest was over. I do remember the one with the orcs. I thought the winner was the low level rogue (under 5th) with a huge Use Magic Deivice skill check using Wall of Fire over and over. Then again, maybe the rogue won the under 5th level portion of the contest with higher levels characters getting more kills. Cheers Otto :)
Gellion 11-03-03, 07:09 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter this balor-idea, now, thats just this stuff all the kiddies over at enworld come with and say its min/max :) LOL, that did come from ENWorld.:D
Funny Slaughter 11-03-03, 07:24 PM	Actually, it was the one where you fought a white dragon and it was replaced when it was killed. yep, that was another good one, some good use of this strange shell etc. at last its all about tactics. i think the goblin/orc-thread is much older, and you are right, there was one for each level-category. these are the threads where i can lean back and see some really experienced wizard-players getting nasty spell-combos. i only played a few casters in my life so i can enjoy all those tricks since i know how they work, but i would never been able to figure them out myself... gs Funny
JosephKell 11-03-03, 07:31 PM	If I were to try and slay legions of Orcs... I can think of nothing better than Automatic Quickened Widened Spells of wanton destruction... Or Horrid Wilting... paired with Automatic Quicken Dimensional Door... and Fly... 1. Wilt 2. Fly 3. Port Repeat... Or just use Enlarged Cone spells... Enlarged Burning Hands is 30 ft cone after all... And you could still fry a good number of Orcs... Or somehow lure them to a demiplane and collapse it on them...
Funny Slaughter 11-03-03, 07:40 PM	Or somehow lure them to a demiplane and collapse it on them... create a big sign: "free beer" and a gate to the xxxx-plane :) wow, infinite orcs just minus the ones that are antialcoholic. but well, all those orcs are getting thirsty, maybe "free drink" will get them all? gs Funny
Ivarrius 11-03-03, 07:41 PM	Spells that do not rely solely on damage, but more on instant killing ability like Cloudkill, Weird, even huge area spells can do the job best ( most likely) - widened fireballs, cone of cold and a couple of meteor swarms would do the trick. But Cloudkill/Weird/firebrand combo would probably do the most killing... any of them that pass the saves on cloudkill still take con damage, lowering their fort saves. Coupled with their already low will saves, lets see them pass the save on Weird, say a will and fort save of 26 or 27(20 int+level 9 spell+spell enhancer (free action to cast for +2 to DC) and maybe even a +1 for Spell focus: Illusion. They would have to roll 20's on all their saves. Then... after they have either been poisoned or instakilled... they have to deal with pillar upon pillar of flaes. Good luck getting outta there.
JosephKell 11-03-03, 07:51 PM	Originally posted by Ivarrius Spells that do not rely solely on damage, but more on instant killing ability like Cloudkill, Weird, even huge area spells can do the job best ( most likely) - widened fireballs, cone of cold and a couple of meteor swarms would do the trick. But Cloudkill/Weird/firebrand combo would probably do the most killing... any of them that pass the saves on cloudkill still take con damage, lowering their fort saves. Coupled with their already low will saves, lets see them pass the save on Weird, say a will and fort save of 26 or 27(20 int+level 9 spell+spell enhancer (free action to cast for +2 to DC) and maybe even a +1 for Spell focus: Illusion. They would have to roll 20's on all their saves. Then... after they have either been poisoned or instakilled... they have to deal with pillar upon pillar of flaes. Good luck getting outta there. Widened Cloudkill or Refied Bean Empowered Gas... you decide... (this is just like how Paladin should be made into a Prestige Class with the requirement of having Continual Flame cast on your forehead by a virgin Cleric of Heironeous)
Otto the Bugbear 11-03-03, 08:01 PM	I think you're on to the best solution there. Actually, Wierd won't be the best one. It's area is too small. In fact, Wall of Fire (192 squares) will affect more orcs than Wierd (141 squares) does. Horrid Wilting on the other hand, with its 60 ft. maximum diameter, can hit 565 squares, making it one great orc killing machine! A quick scan for my own curiosity gives us the ultimate orc slaying spell for the plane of infinite orcs.... Storm of Vengance with a whopping 360 ft. radius can nail an amazing 81430 squares. Now, it takes 4 rounds to insure orcish destruction, but in a 10 round contest, that's a bunch of orcs (162860). Plus you can still throw in two Horrid Wiltings for another 1130 squares. Gravy. Cheers Otto :)
Ivarrius 11-03-03, 08:17 PM	Good call with the storm of Vengeance. I didn't even think of that one.
RabidWeasel 11-03-03, 08:45 PM	Actually, it was the one where you fought a white dragon and it was replaced when it was killed I remember this very well for 2 reasons - first, it was based on a competition I attempted to start but was ignored, (I obviously lack star-power compared to Iku Rex :embarrass) and second, some of the builds were just really fun - shredder, the giant squid druid being the most memorable.
Jeryg 11-03-03, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter yep, that was indeed a funny contest. i think it was like this: you are teleported to an infinite plane with goblins, every 5ft a goblin. every goblin has x hitpoints. after 10 rounds you are teleported back. how many goblins can you kill? i am not sure, i think the winner did something with multiple enlarged quickened cones of cold in conjunction with cloudkills or something... nothing beats a chained chain lightning (metamagic feat on chain lighning)... :behold:
Llathos 11-04-03, 03:19 PM	As for that goblin anecdote..... would you believe you could kill almost all of them in 1 round? Just take Fighter levels until eligable for Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom (Sword and Fist). 3 levels into that you get Supreme Cleave. Essentially until you roll a 1 AND run out of attacks, you'll keep killing goblins.
FarKadeNear 11-04-03, 03:38 PM	Just take Fighter levels until eligable for Knight Protector of the Great Kingdom (Sword and Fist). 3 levels into that you get Supreme Cleave. Essentially until you roll a 1 AND run out of attacks, you'll keep killing goblins. Supreme Cleave was errata'd. Only one 5 foot adjustment allowed. FKN
Crabjuice 11-04-03, 05:29 PM	Why doesn't someone start a new thread on this subject? I know I would enjoy reading it. SOmeone who remembers the original should start it. :D
Jeryg 11-04-03, 06:51 PM	the fighter supreme cleave trick would only work untill you roll a 1 on your die. so not so long... the chained chain lightning would be the most devastating thing.
vasjalv 11-04-03, 07:46 PM	You cant "Chain Spell" Chain Lightning - Chain Spell specifies that the spell being metamagiced must have a single target.....
incubus 11-04-03, 08:05 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter how exactly can somebody get to the thought that those would stack? Because they provide an unnamed bonus which isn't derived from a spell. Any bonuses like that stack with themselves. The rules on stacking are: "A bonus that isn't named stacks with any bonus" and "Spells that provide bonuses don't stack with themselves" There's no rule against a non-spell effect stacking with itself. and, btw, in 3.5 gate would cost XP, making this extremely costly... Nope, that's why you're using a staff silly. Staffs don't cost XP to use, just to create. And you bought yours.
Ivarrius 11-04-03, 08:32 PM	I am curious about the bead of karma... Dont you have to be wearing the necklace? and if so, aren't there only a certain number of beads per necklace? And how many do you think could fit? you wouldn't be able to sue multiple necklaces because of the magic item placement rule ( only one per slot) so doesn't that kind of ruin that theory? Correct me if I am wrong, as I am sure someone can prove me otherwise.
PhaedrusXY 11-04-03, 08:57 PM	I posted this on here a bit ago, but don't feel like digging for the thread, so here it is again. I originally built this for a guy who wanted to be able to smash through walls with an unarmed monk like the Hulk. The funny thing is, you could use this against things other than walls too. monk16/singh rager 4 1 monk1 Imp. Grapple, IUS, Power Attack, Improved Sunder 2 monk2 Iron Will (as per OA rules on monks) 3 monk3 Fists of Iron 6 monk6 Eagle Claw Attack, Improved Trip 9 monk9 Ki Shout 12 monk12 Improved Natural Attack 15 monk15 Flying Kick 17 SR1 18 SR2 Lion's Fury 4/day, Mantis Leap 20 SR4 Pounce Base unarmed damage is 6d6 (increased from Improved Natural Attack and Empty Hand Mastery). Put an 18 in Str, get a +5 tome, and a +6 belt. With the +4 from rage, this puts your str at 33. Drink a potion of Enlarge Person to increase your Str by +2 to 35 total, and your unarmed damage goes up to 8d6. Get a pair of Sandals of the Tiger's Leap, a monk's belt, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5. Charge the wall, and Max power attack (not like you're going to miss it, is it? :P ) Normal Unarmed Damage: 8d6 + 17 Max Power Attack Damage: 8d6 + 33 Max Power Attack and Charging: 8d6 X 3 + 24 X 3 + 16 X 3 +5 X 3= 24d6 + 135, average 219 And you get to make a full attack, because you have the Pounce ability. :D So a greater flurry makes that 6 attacks all dealing an average of 219 damage, for 1314 average damage on a charge per round.
Otto the Bugbear 11-04-03, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by incubus Because they provide an unnamed bonus which isn't derived from a spell. Any bonuses like that stack with themselves. The rules on stacking are: "A bonus that isn't named stacks with any bonus" and "Spells that provide bonuses don't stack with themselves" There's no rule against a non-spell effect stacking with itself. Nope, that's why you're using a staff silly. Staffs don't cost XP to use, just to create. And you bought yours. First, :turkey: ;) Well, first is the experience points used. Usually for these contests no exp can be used, but since it's a copy from ENWorld it's not such a big deal. We asked you to show us -- you showed us. There's also something fishy about the strands of prayer beads. The prices at the bottom of page 267 is the amount to removed from one of the three types of strand of prayer beads (lesser, standard, greater). If you pick up a standard strand of prayer bead for 25800 gold, then take away the bead of healing (-9000 gp) and take away the bead of smiting (-16800 gp), would technically leave a standard strand of prayer bead with only karma remaining that costs zero gold pieces. Screwy, eh? Overall, it's typical to just use the book price for a magic item. This would mean the build would need to use the standard strand of prayer beads for a cost of 25800 gold. Also, the cost of the staff is off by a little bit (375 gold x 9th level spell x 100th level caster = 337500. Just a minor note. Which brings us to another question: why do you need a caster level of 100 for evil spells? Gate is from an item, Dictum isn't evil, Greater Teleport isn't evil... Granted you'll need a caster level of 30 to actually kill the Balors with Dictum, but I don't see anything that needs 100th level. I don't think you needed it for the staff, since you indicated it was puchased. If it was created, then the cost of the staff goes up from 13500 exp to 63500 exp. ouch. And why a 50' radius sphere? The death throes ability is a 100 ft. radius, not diameter, increasing the amount of damage. So anyway, a few problems besides the cheese of stacking those prayer beads. I'd expect there to be some change to that through errata, unless they drop the ball again. Cheers Otto :)
Grim Sage 11-05-03, 05:40 AM	The nice thing about staffs is you use your own casterlvl to determine the effects. The staff mentioned had XP cost included in the cost (i think, won't bother to calculate)