Awakened Tiny Viper Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Awakened Tiny Viper Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Coalminer
10-12-04, 04:42 PM So far one of my players had his character die and wants to make his next an awakened Tiny Viper Rogue to join the party of normal raced classes. I thought about it for a while and didn't see the harm in it.

I don't recall his stats exactly as rolled but they were I believe like so before race and size modification.

Str 12 , Con 10 Dex 18 , Int 15 , wis 9 Cha 9

SRD Animal section

Snake, Tiny Viper
Tiny Animal
Hitpoints: 1/4 d8 (1 hp)
Init: +3
Movement: 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft.
AC:17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
BAB:+0/–11
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special: Poison(DC 10. 1d6 con, 1d6 con), Scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills : Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +15, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +5
Feat: Weapon Finesse
CR : 1/3

Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Now because of the Awaken Spell cast on it it would normally gain +2 hd, so instead of that I allowing him the full 1d8 HD for each level, since he'll need it and to compensate.

What would his real stats work out too, and have I made a grave mistake on how nasty a rogue snake could be?

I can see him taking rogue then an Assassin PRC, which is just scary on it's own. death attack from a tiny creature. Sneak attack adds huge damage to his piddly 1 damage bite.

PS : It has very limited magic item slots, can wear 2 rings, one as a necklace, and a belt. Pretty much missing everything else, except I'll allow him to buy with group money and his own to buy a larger array of permenant spells cast on him to simulate magic items if he ever lasts long enough for them to matter.

I'm allowing his Poison DC goes up by 1 for each level.

This game I'm running can and probably will go into the epic levels in time.

(edited to include poison DC)
mean_liar
10-12-04, 05:08 PM Slow down the Poison DC.

Use 10 + 1/2 HitDice + CON. Its the usual method to determine DCs.

I think limiting the character's access to Magic Items is going to really, really screw him over. I'd suggest allow more of them (everything other than Boots, say) or more of the slots that he can use (2 Amulet slots maybe) in order to balance that out.
Ruxpin
10-12-04, 05:16 PM I'd say this character is very limited because he doesnt have hands.. hows he gonna pick a lock? Bonus is he only needs to eat once a month i guess.
lonewar
10-12-04, 10:35 PM From the snake he is going to have his stats change as follows:

STR -6
DEX +6
CON 0
INT -10
WIS +2
CHR -8

As for magical items I would allow:
1 Amulet
2 Rings
1 Chest
1 Cloak
1 Belt
1 Lens or Goggles

In order to cast spells he will need to take Natural Spell. (If he goes Assassin or other casting rogue)

In order to pick lock I would make him have to use Mage Hand spell or Telekenisis (Amulet or the Mage allows unlimited uses of Mage hand for only 900 GP). And I would have him do so at a -2 Circumstances Penalty at least.

One thing I would allow him to do as a DM would be to have custom crafted Magic fangs built which allow him to do different types of poison. (Alla Planescape Torment).
Coalminer
10-13-04, 09:43 AM I think increased magic slots would work. The rogue snake would look a little funny wearing magical bodysocks but it works :)

and for his Int Wis and Charisma from the effects of the Awaken spell he gets 3d6 Int not added to previous snake but replaces int. +1d3 charisma, and no change to wis. So I allowed him to roll a 2d6 for both Charisma and Wis as I was feeling generous.

I think the lock picking will be harder considerably. I was hoping he would come up with a creative solution. But that mage hand idea sounds good.

so noted on the Poison DCs. I'll also give him the ability to give up a few doses to poison team member's weapons.

So since no one said I'm heading for disaster I'll allow him to continue along with his new rogue snake. Until someone comes along with something I haven't thought of to end up breaking things. :)
nihility
10-13-04, 09:51 AM In order to cast spells he will need to take Natural Spell. (If he goes Assassin or other casting rogue)
Actually, this doesn't quite work, since Natural Spell has the wildshape ability as a prereq. Happily, Savage Species has a feat that is almost identical, but without the wildshape requirement. It's called Surrogate Spellcasting.
Qaetar
10-13-04, 11:22 AM ...for his Int Wis and Charisma from the effects of the Awaken spell he gets 3d6 Int not added to previous snake but replaces int. +1d3 charisma, and no change to wis. So I allowed him to roll a 2d6 for both Charisma and Wis as I was feeling generous...

There are rules in the DMG for rolling 3d6, then changing that to an ability score based on the monster's normal abilities. Then, on top of that, you could add the 1d3 Cha. That would be the most rules-accurate way of arbitrating that, IIRC.

(Qaetar)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Coalminer 10-12-04, 04:42 PM	So far one of my players had his character die and wants to make his next an awakened Tiny Viper Rogue to join the party of normal raced classes. I thought about it for a while and didn't see the harm in it. I don't recall his stats exactly as rolled but they were I believe like so before race and size modification. Str 12 , Con 10 Dex 18 , Int 15 , wis 9 Cha 9 SRD Animal section Snake, Tiny Viper Tiny Animal Hitpoints: 1/4 d8 (1 hp) Init: +3 Movement: 15 ft. (3 squares), climb 15 ft., swim 15 ft. AC:17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14 BAB:+0/–11 Attack: Bite +5 melee (1 plus poison) Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1 plus poison) Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft. Special: Poison(DC 10. 1d6 con, 1d6 con), Scent Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1 Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2 Skills : Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +15, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +5 Feat: Weapon Finesse CR : 1/3 Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Now because of the Awaken Spell cast on it it would normally gain +2 hd, so instead of that I allowing him the full 1d8 HD for each level, since he'll need it and to compensate. What would his real stats work out too, and have I made a grave mistake on how nasty a rogue snake could be? I can see him taking rogue then an Assassin PRC, which is just scary on it's own. death attack from a tiny creature. Sneak attack adds huge damage to his piddly 1 damage bite. PS : It has very limited magic item slots, can wear 2 rings, one as a necklace, and a belt. Pretty much missing everything else, except I'll allow him to buy with group money and his own to buy a larger array of permenant spells cast on him to simulate magic items if he ever lasts long enough for them to matter. I'm allowing his Poison DC goes up by 1 for each level. This game I'm running can and probably will go into the epic levels in time. (edited to include poison DC)
mean_liar 10-12-04, 05:08 PM	Slow down the Poison DC. Use 10 + 1/2 HitDice + CON. Its the usual method to determine DCs. I think limiting the character's access to Magic Items is going to really, really screw him over. I'd suggest allow more of them (everything other than Boots, say) or more of the slots that he can use (2 Amulet slots maybe) in order to balance that out.
Ruxpin 10-12-04, 05:16 PM	I'd say this character is very limited because he doesnt have hands.. hows he gonna pick a lock? Bonus is he only needs to eat once a month i guess.
lonewar 10-12-04, 10:35 PM	From the snake he is going to have his stats change as follows: STR -6 DEX +6 CON 0 INT -10 WIS +2 CHR -8 As for magical items I would allow: 1 Amulet 2 Rings 1 Chest 1 Cloak 1 Belt 1 Lens or Goggles In order to cast spells he will need to take Natural Spell. (If he goes Assassin or other casting rogue) In order to pick lock I would make him have to use Mage Hand spell or Telekenisis (Amulet or the Mage allows unlimited uses of Mage hand for only 900 GP). And I would have him do so at a -2 Circumstances Penalty at least. One thing I would allow him to do as a DM would be to have custom crafted Magic fangs built which allow him to do different types of poison. (Alla Planescape Torment).
Coalminer 10-13-04, 09:43 AM	I think increased magic slots would work. The rogue snake would look a little funny wearing magical bodysocks but it works :) and for his Int Wis and Charisma from the effects of the Awaken spell he gets 3d6 Int not added to previous snake but replaces int. +1d3 charisma, and no change to wis. So I allowed him to roll a 2d6 for both Charisma and Wis as I was feeling generous. I think the lock picking will be harder considerably. I was hoping he would come up with a creative solution. But that mage hand idea sounds good. so noted on the Poison DCs. I'll also give him the ability to give up a few doses to poison team member's weapons. So since no one said I'm heading for disaster I'll allow him to continue along with his new rogue snake. Until someone comes along with something I haven't thought of to end up breaking things. :)
nihility 10-13-04, 09:51 AM	In order to cast spells he will need to take Natural Spell. (If he goes Assassin or other casting rogue) Actually, this doesn't quite work, since Natural Spell has the wildshape ability as a prereq. Happily, Savage Species has a feat that is almost identical, but without the wildshape requirement. It's called Surrogate Spellcasting.
Qaetar 10-13-04, 11:22 AM	...for his Int Wis and Charisma from the effects of the Awaken spell he gets 3d6 Int not added to previous snake but replaces int. +1d3 charisma, and no change to wis. So I allowed him to roll a 2d6 for both Charisma and Wis as I was feeling generous... There are rules in the DMG for rolling 3d6, then changing that to an ability score based on the monster's normal abilities. Then, on top of that, you could add the 1d3 Cha. That would be the most rules-accurate way of arbitrating that, IIRC. (Qaetar)