Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sluggo 04-26-05, 02:39 PM	I'm looking to make a Dwarven fighter that use's a Dwarven Waraxe and Warhammer (two weapon fighting), with a crossbow for range, though not all that worried about being great with the bow. Not sure what presitage classes are out there and would be good for this type of character. Any help would be great. Thanks.
rilem 04-26-05, 03:29 PM	Stats? Books Allowed? If you've got the Dex (and Cha) to spare, Dwarven Cleric4/Fighter4/Templar4 is a 12th level build, using the 4th Level Cleric Substitution Level and the First level fighter subtition level from Races of Stone (which basically gives you WF in all axes, WF in Warhammer and +2 damage with Warhammer. Other feats (plus any from cleric domains) TWF, Oversized TWF, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Anvil of Thunder, Divine Might, True Believer, Iron Will (this sets you up for Hammer of Moradin) next. This gets you: Power attacking with TWF, Divine Might and Double Specialization in Warhammer — there's enough damage there to offset the natural downsides of TWF. Then you can daze enemies with Anvil of Thunder.
Sir Ringe 04-26-05, 03:43 PM	Isn't there a prestige class (I want to say Tempest, but I could be wrong) that lets you apply bonuses from feats and abilites on one weapon to a different weapon in your off hand as well? Since you're going TWF with two different weapons, you might want to look into that, it might cut down on the number of feats you have to take.
Minotaur 04-26-05, 03:51 PM	Isn't there a prestige class (I want to say Tempest, but I could be wrong) that lets you apply bonuses from feats and abilites on one weapon to a different weapon in your off hand as well? Since you're going TWF with two different weapons, you might want to look into that, it might cut down on the number of feats you have to take. That is almost exactly what Tempest does.
rilem 04-26-05, 04:03 PM	It is Tempest, but that class only really works when combined with Dervish. Dervish, in turn, works best with slashing weapons, and warhammer undercuts this.
sluggo 04-26-05, 09:23 PM	What book is the Tempest in?
rilem 04-26-05, 10:00 PM	Complete Adventurer — it requires Spring Attack, which makes it a less-than-great choice for a Dwarf. Again, stats and books allowed? TWF is generally pointless unless you can deliver extra damage from some source, such as: - Dervish - Sneak Attack - Divine Might - Oversized TWF + Power Attack - Morale bonus from Half-Orc Paladin Substitution levels If you don't have one of these things — and aren't going for some non-damage tactic, like the Gatling tripper or whatnot — you'd be better off with another concept.
sluggo 04-26-05, 10:35 PM	I want to do the TWF for the "flavor" of it, cause I like the idea and the visual. I just want to know what I can do to optimize within that concept.
rilem 04-26-05, 10:47 PM	I know. And you'll get much better feedback if you let people know what they have to work with. Stats, Books allowed and the level you're starting at are all very important. It does no good for somebody to suggest a fighter-base TWF if your Dex is only 11, or a Divine Might build when you don't have access to the proper book.
Nazzareth 04-26-05, 11:01 PM	anvil of thunder is a must, so is oversized twf, you might also consider monkey grip for your main weapon. With exotic weapon master PRC you could become a trip or sunder master with the waraxe. the Karmic strike + double hit combo would work well with the anvil of thunder but would chew up alot of feats.
sluggo 04-27-05, 07:50 AM	Str - 16 Dex - 15 Con - 15 Int - 10 Wis - 12 Chr - 9 I own/can get access to PHB, DM Guide, Complete Adventurer and Warrior, Races of Stone, Equipment and Weapon guide. All Wizards of the Coast made books are legel.
runestar 04-27-05, 08:22 AM	Try to get your hands on PGTF, or go to your bookstore with pen and paper in hand, at least for the hammer of moradin prc. Its very strong. Maybe you can mix it with dwarven defender or something...
rilem 04-27-05, 01:08 PM	The gist of Hammer of Moradin can be foundhere (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a) OK, so equal to a 33 point build. That's good, but it’s also a good illustration of the multiple-ability dependency difficulties that TWF poses to dwarves, especially. The typical TWF trick of using ranger levels doesn’t work as well for Dwarves, b/c they’re encouraged to use Heavy Armor. So they’re steered into fighter, which requires a High Dex that is then wasted if they use heavy armor. Saying you want a Warhammer also begs the Hammer of Moradin, which requires Divine Spells (and consequently leads to builds that include Divine Might, which means you want high CHA, etc….) One option is to go Samurai from CW, using Rule Zero to Replace the Daisho with some Dwarven-specific weaponry. Then put the 9 in Dex and the 15 in Cha. Gold Dwarf Samurai3/Cleric4/Fighter2/HammerofMoradinX This again uses the sub levels from Cleric&Fighter Uses the feat chain described above (I do like that Karmic Strike/Double Hit combo, but it doesn’t work with a poor Dex. You really want Anvil of Thunder.) If switching stats is not an option, you’re pretty much left with sneak attack and Oversized Wpn/PowerAttack. The latter is a fairly new concept and I’m not much good at Power Attack math, but it sounds like it works. Fighter6/Cleric4/HoMx/TemplarX Taking substitution levels (Fighter 1st, Cleric 4th and maybe 1st, if your Cha is so bad that turning isn’t worth it. Smite Giants isn’t great but it’s better than really poor turning). Again, feats as above. Fighter4/Rog3/Templar4/HoM8/TacticalSoldier1 Feats: WF (Warhammer)*, TWF*, Power Attack*, Oversized TWF, Improved Sunder, True Believer, Iron Will, WS (Warhammer*) WF (Waraxe)* Anvil of Thunder, Cleave, Combat Reflexes. *=bonus feat from Fighter or Templar BAB 19, Saves 18/7/13 (includes Iron Will) +2d6 Sneak Attack (and flank from odd angles with Tactical Soldier, from Mini Hndbk.) – If the OA 3.5 update from Dragon is allowed, you can use the ancestor feat Great Teamwork instead of T. Soldier, replace Cleave with Dual Strike or something else, and Take HoM to level 9. Mettle, Evasion, Smite, Ungodly stuff from Hammer of Moradin (you won't be able to use some of the features very often with a low CHA, but it's good anyway). Note that this build depends on the Templar getting 2nd level spells at level 4. I think it does. This also doesn't use the Fighter substitution level, b/c you need to focus on Warhammer early.
sluggo 04-27-05, 02:33 PM	What about a Fighter/Cleric/Tempest/HoM build?
rilem 04-27-05, 02:55 PM	Tempest is, shall we say, not highly regarded. It doesn't get you much except that TWF Spring Attack and the Versatility aspect (which isn't that great either, as I don't think it qualifies you for feats like Hammer/Anvil). The only reason it gets much use at all is because it has very synergistic requirements with the Dervish, and as a 5-level class, it's a nice way to finish off a Dervish build. The problems of a Dwarven Tempest are obvious. - You're slow, so spring attack isn't great for you. - You're encouraged to wear Heavy Armor, which makes you even slower. - Dwarves can already get a better form of versatility through the Fighter Substitution level. That said, it's possible. Go light armor and take the Celerity Domain, which will get your speed up to 30.
sluggo 04-27-05, 03:13 PM	You're encouraged to wear Heavy Armor, which makes you even slower Don't Dwarves move the same speed with heavy armor as without? Failign that, is there a class out there that does for the Axe what HoM does for the Warhammer?
rilem 04-27-05, 03:19 PM	Right, bit of 3.0 leaked in there, sorry. Still, a 20 ft. move and spring attack is just terrible. That's 10 ft. in, 10 ft. out — most monsters will still be able to take a 5 foot step and full-attack you, which negates one of the big advantages of spring attacks. Edit: There isn't an axe-equivalent HoM, but there could be. Take out Moradin, put in Clangeddin or _____ Brightaxe. Pretty simple Rule Zero.
PhoenixInferno 04-27-05, 03:19 PM	True, your base speed is unaffected by Heavy armor as a Dwarf. But you're still slow which really defeats the purpose of Spring Attack. There is no Axe-centric class yet written by Wizards.
sluggo 04-27-05, 03:22 PM	What is this "Rule Zero" thing? As for the axe class (I'm not really new to the game, but my knowledge of all the builds and presitge classes isn't all that good), is there one can be addapted to the DWA (exotic weapon master for example)?
rilem 04-27-05, 03:32 PM	That's shorthand for "It's your game — if you don't like something, change it". House-rules, basically.
rilem 04-27-05, 09:59 PM	is there (a PrC) can be addapted to the DWA (exotic weapon master for example)? Dwarf fighter into Exotic Weapon Master is fairly common tactic (though usually it's two-handed, for the Uncanny Blow ability). You could take Exotic Trip or Exotic Sunder (especially the latter, if you go for Anvil of Thunder) As an easy example, in the above build with Tactical Soldier, dump TS and go Fighter4/Rog3/Templar4/EWM1/HoM8 Instead of Combat Reflexes/Cleave (both preqs. for TS), take Combat Brute and Improved TWF instead. Use an Adamantine WarAxe as your offhand weapon and use sundering Cleave instead (and, as you cleave into your foe, you trigger the Anvil of Thunder effect).
sluggo 04-27-05, 10:11 PM	I have never seen the Templar class, what book is that in?
Nazzareth 04-28-05, 03:14 AM	Go Duergar with double hit and anvil of thunder, enlarge yourself to gain AOO for reach. Go warmind for the sweeping strike ability to hit extra foes with your attacks. Also go for 3 levels of devoted defender so you can gain more AOO.
runestar 04-28-05, 04:05 AM	I think there's a dwarven thane prc somewhere, basically, its a dnd interpretation of the mountain king from warcraft3, not too shabby.
sluggo 04-28-05, 08:10 AM	I think there's a dwarven thane prc somewhere, basically, its a dnd interpretation of the mountain king from warcraft3, not too shabby What do you mean?
rilem 04-28-05, 10:19 AM	- Pious Templar is from Complete Divine, an update of Templar from Defenders of the Faith - If you're not familiar with WarCraft III computer game, the Mountain King is a unit that fights with an axe and hammer, can throw their hammer, stun foes, cause tremors, etc. Dwarven Thane was a PrC written up in Dragon #299. Note that the Hammer of Moradin, as well, seems to borrow heavily from the WarCraft III Mountain King (throw hammer, stun foes, cause tremors, etc.) - I'm a Big Fan of Duergar, so that idea is a good one. Here's what his idea is about: - Duergar can enlarge themselves for free (1/day, but this can be boosted) - WarMind (XPsiHnbk) get Sweeping Strike at level five, letting them hit two adjacent opponents with one blow. - Devoted Defender (Sword & Fist) gets AOOs when the person they're guarding is attacked. This is really feat-intensive, but here's how it might work. Duergar (LA+1) PsyWar2/Fighter4/DevotedDefender3/WarMind10 BAB +18 Saves 17/9/5 dang that's a wretched will save. Feats: TWF, Oversized TWF, WF (Axe), WF (Hammer), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Combat Reflexes, Anvil of Thunder, Double Hit, Combat Brute, Improved TWF, Focused Sunder. You might want to throw in a level of Cleric and go WarMind9, this would improve your Will Save slightly and free up a feat if you take the Metal or War Domain. 8 Powers, up to 5th level (7, up to 4th if you only take 9 War Mind levels) Note that this build violates the extra-damage rule from standard TWF tactics. (Even if you take the cleric level, a Duergar's CHA is so poor that Divine Might isn't an option.) So take Offensive Prescience as a power, it boosts damage output. Also, see if you can get the Collision Psionic weapon enhancement on both axe and hammer. That will add another +5 damage per hit.
sluggo 04-28-05, 11:39 AM	Thanks. Where online can I find/buy/back order an issue of Dragon 299?
rilem 04-28-05, 11:44 AM	paizo.com may have them. Also check Crystalkeep.com, which catalogs PrC requirements and gives you a taste (just a taste) of what they're like. Dwarven Thane is a 3.0 PrC.
dkot2 05-01-05, 12:03 AM	I liked where this thread is/was going, but it has lagged lately. Since last week, I've tried to come-up with an Anvil of Thunder Dwarf then will eventally become the Hammer of his god. I've presented the concept to my DM, and he likes it. He set the following parameters for development: ***3.5 books (PHB; DMG; MMI+II+III; Complete x; BoED; BoVD; and since the PrC came from a specific setting, PGtF. (Specifically mentioned his unwillingness [time and lack of book] to delve into Psionic characters, abilities, etc.). THANKS for the posting of the Wizards' link to the HoM PrC. I don't have the book, and I don't think the DM has it either, but he is willing to adjust the PrC to reflect his aming world (gerneric setting). ***Use a 25 point buy to keep matched with other party members. ***Nonevil ***Several new players have been added since game play began this year, so levels fluctuate, and the DM wants to see how the character is likely to progress. The DM also stated that this progression chart will help him identify a point to introduce my dwarf. Current Party: - Human Fighter NPC played by DM to meet the combat requirements - Half Elf Swashbuckler/party face - Gnome Rogue/Wizard with skills designed to aid Rogue skills and specials) - Human Cleric/Healer (me) with massive ways to cast and boost Cure x Wounds spells (thanks). - Elven Bard If I pull-out/die/retire as the healer, the DM agreed to swap roles with me, letting me a tank for a change, and he'd assume some divine healer role. Therefore- HELP! What has gotten me thusfar...the lure of the Anvil of Thunder miniature the DM says he alreadyhas and is willing to let me use/have, and the idea that very little else has been posted lately (outside this thread...excuse me if I am wrong), and the first character I ever made was a Dwarven axe & hammer chuckin' nut in Middle-Earth. Suggestions...and please forgive me since I'm relatively new to optimization. My thoughts: STATS (25 Point Buy) STR 13 needed for Power Attack DEX 15 needed for TWF CON 14 (12+2) INT 12 gets me an additional skill point that I can sink into weaponsmithing each level after putting 4 ranks into it at 1st level. WIS 12 Qualifying for 2nd level divine spells...do I swap it for an 11 now, and boost STR to 14...bumping my Wisdom by 1 at 4th level? CHA 6 (8-2) If I took a solid Cleric level, I'd use the racial substitutional Level from Races of Stone to drop Turn Undead and gain Smite Giant, based on Con bonuses. The only concern is the HoM uses CHA to determine how long a x bane ability lasts (in minutes...one minuture minimum). Is this really a concern? If so, what do I drop to bump-up Charisma?) 1: Dwarf Fighter Racial Substitution Level: BAB 1 Axe Focus built-in, TWF? 2: Fighter: BAB 2 Weapon Focus: warhammer 3rd...okay, from here on out, I'm needing more advice. I thought the path I needed was going to take me to Pious Templar for Divine spellcasting (and now might be the best time to add the True Believer feat needed for the PrC?). Although, I could take Clerical levels (likely taking the racial substitution level instead). Of Moradin's domains, I don't really think any help me much. What does the Dwarf Domain grant a character? What are the domain spells? I'd lean more toward Protection domain, and my gut tells me Dwarf might be a good one- sight unseen. I wanted to take War Domain (free Warhammer Weapon Focus!), but the DM said he wouldn't allow it since he didn't see anywhere "offically" listed that Moradin had this domain. Get to Anvil of Thunder feat as soon as possible, is this the way to go? Sword and Fist would have been great, but not under 3.5 directions given by my DM. The DM tells us we can expect Epic Play, so make characters worth it. My healer character would have been jumping in and out of BoED for nifty stuff, but I'm getting tired of being on the recieving end of damage. Thanks in advance!
Nazzareth 05-01-05, 04:19 AM	another nice way to go if you don't want to go for anvil of thunder, is having stunning fist and pain touch then take exotic weapon master for the stunning blow ability to use them with your weapon strikes.
Bellinator 05-01-05, 02:45 PM	Ranger 2, Fighter 2, Barbarian 1, Stalker of Karash 2, FoeHunter 1 Wield dual hand axes. FEATS: 1: Power Attack; F1: Weapon Focus, Axes; 3: Snow Tiger Berserker; F2: Alertness 6: Favored of the Companions; Sub the Level 1 of fighter with Dwarven Fighter. This is an 8th level build that at 9th and 12th adds Improved Favored Enemy and then Favored Power Attack. At 15 take another favored enemy or Nemesis. The Stalker of Kharash gives Favored Enemy Evil, and Foe Hunter then makes Evil the Hated Enemy. Run FoeHunter to 10 and give yourself DR 11 vs evil, Rancor 5d6 vs Evil, and SR 25. Your damage against evil will be adding 2 for each -1 in each hand with the Favored Power attack, and your base will be at least +4 from Favored Enemy, if not +6, along with the 5d6 rancor. So damage will be 1d6 + strength, +4 from favored enemy, + Power attack, and any magic. Add Leap Attack and go 3 for each -1. That is with 2 LIGHT weapons, so you can take a full attack on a charge with the Snow Berserker! Your full attack at level 8 is going to net 3 attacks for the above damage! Not too shabby! Not by idea by the way. Somebody here laid a version of this out first.
rilem 05-01-05, 10:27 PM	Two things: 1. You can't use Power Attack with light weapons (well, you can, but it's pointless b/c you don't get any extra damage, unless the "light weapon" is actually an unarmed strike or natural weapon. 2. The Stalker of Evil build is great, and Twin Hand Axes are pretty easy to optimize. But this request was about TWF with a Warhammer and Waraxe, so both are really beside the point. The only concern is the HoM uses CHA to determine how long a x bane ability lasts (in minutes...one minuture minimum) It's not minutes — not by the exerpt, anyway, though that could have changed. It's rounds, with a 1 round minimum. This doesn't kill the HoM concept, as it's a 1/day use anyway. But it's something to keep in mind. Regarding your case. You've a tight point-buy, which makes this concept tough. You need some form of bonus damage, as noted, and I don't think it's worth going cleric unless you can boost your Charisma. I would bump your strength to 14 now, by the way. Options: 1. Use the Samurai/Cleric suggestion below and dump Dex, though this requires selling your DM on some house rules regarding the Daisho 2. Fighter4/Rogue2 into Templar/EWM/HoM 3. If your DM is willing to bend the Daisho rules for Samurai (and maybe give you something else at level 1 for the EWP. Samurai3/Fighter2 or Ranger1/Samurai2/Fighter2 is the fastest way to Templar with the least amount of junk levels. Your First two levels (if you start with fighter) should go: 1. Fighter Sub Level, TWF 2. Oversized TWF, not WF (warhammer). This will minimize your TWf penalties earlier. Regarding domains: Moradin doens't get war (nor Metal, which is just as good)
sluggo 05-02-05, 09:58 AM	I ordered Dragon 299, depending on what I think of the Dwarven Thane class (and it sounds like it would be what I'm looking for) I'll probably go with a Fighter/Dwarven Defender/Dwarven Thane build.