Azurin Racial Sub, Extra Turning, Turn Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Azurin Racial Sub, Extra Turning, Turn Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shummie
02-14-06, 12:38 PM I'm not sure if this has been answered or not before, but I have a few questions on the interaction between the Auzrin Cleric 1st level substitution, Extra Turning, and the Turning ability granted by other PrC's such as the Sacred Exorcist. As a DM, I have a player that is interested in using DM Persistant so I'm curious as the effects each of the below by RAW give. Regardless, I still have my discretion as a DM.

Answering some of these questions may make others moot, but are there anyway...

1) If you took the racial sub level, and then took Sacred Exorcist, would you have both the Channel Incarnum ability AND Turn undead.
2) If not would the sacred exorcist levels then stack with the Channel Incarnum?
By RAW it appears that you can get both abilities since by taking the Channel Incarnum, you no longer have a Turn Undead ability... but my interpretation may be off since it is a replacement.
3) IF you get both Channel Incarnum AND turn undead, when you take the extra turning feat, do you get only 4 additional uses per day and only for the turn undead, or do you get them for both abilities?
My take on this one is you only get 4 additional attempts for the turn undead, as you are no longer turning undead, but the description of channel incarnum seems to hint that for almost all intents and purposes it is turn undead (at which point you could argue that you don't get both abilities making this a pointless question)
4) IF you don't get both abilities, what about turning from domains? Do you channel incarnum with those abilities as well? or are they actual turning attempts (which can't be used w/ DM anyway, but is still something that I'm wondering about)

I think that's all the questions I have. I know most of my answers, and provided some of them, but don't let them sway you. I'm curious as to what the community thinks. Thanks.
Todd
02-14-06, 01:42 PM Since Channel Incarnum counts as Turn Undead for meeting pre-reqs ... I would say that functionally it counts as Turn Undead for stuff that boosts it.

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) NA ... since you don't get both.
4) No. You get both of these but can't use one for the other.
Kraydak
02-14-06, 01:56 PM Since Channel Incarnum counts as Turn Undead for meeting pre-reqs ... I would say that functionally it counts as Turn Undead for stuff that boosts it.

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) NA ... since you don't get both.
4) No. You get both of these but can't use one for the other.

But then what would happen if you already had Turn Undead (paladin levels, say) and then took Azurin Cleric-1?

-Kraydak
Sir Gummibaerchen
02-14-06, 02:00 PM Since Channel Incarnum counts as Turn Undead for meeting pre-reqs ... I would say that functionally it counts as Turn Undead for stuff that boosts it.
I wondered myself if this was true. As I saw nothing to indicate that, I'd go exactly the other way and say:
1)Yes
2)No
3)TU only
4)Moot point, as I'd say you get both. But you get elemental turning from the elemental domains as normal, as they are not connected to your normal turning apart from using similar game mechanics. If you aquire an elemental domain with a druid or wizard, you still get the elemental turning ability although you can't turn undead normally. You can never use "nonstandard" (read elemental turning, greater turning or what-have-you-turning) to power Divine Feats. This was established some time ago, when CD came out afaik.

Note that MoI says that Channel Incarnum replaces the cleric's ability to turn undead. So you do NOT have the turn undead class feature, and thus would get turn undead from the sacred exorcist IMO.
This is actually a rather interesting matter, as MoI clearly states, that you can use Channel Incarnum as a substitute for TU when qualifying for Feats (but NOT PrCs). It does say you can use CI to power Divine Feats. It does NOT say, however, that your CI benefits from Feats/PrCs as TU. Although it strongly hints into that direction. As you are DM, I'd say it's up to you. You ARE the referee and your word overrules any RAW/RAI. I'd allow a player having both in my games. But I usually play higher-powered games, so YMMV

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shummie 02-14-06, 12:38 PM	I'm not sure if this has been answered or not before, but I have a few questions on the interaction between the Auzrin Cleric 1st level substitution, Extra Turning, and the Turning ability granted by other PrC's such as the Sacred Exorcist. As a DM, I have a player that is interested in using DM Persistant so I'm curious as the effects each of the below by RAW give. Regardless, I still have my discretion as a DM. Answering some of these questions may make others moot, but are there anyway... 1) If you took the racial sub level, and then took Sacred Exorcist, would you have both the Channel Incarnum ability AND Turn undead. 2) If not would the sacred exorcist levels then stack with the Channel Incarnum? By RAW it appears that you can get both abilities since by taking the Channel Incarnum, you no longer have a Turn Undead ability... but my interpretation may be off since it is a replacement. 3) IF you get both Channel Incarnum AND turn undead, when you take the extra turning feat, do you get only 4 additional uses per day and only for the turn undead, or do you get them for both abilities? My take on this one is you only get 4 additional attempts for the turn undead, as you are no longer turning undead, but the description of channel incarnum seems to hint that for almost all intents and purposes it is turn undead (at which point you could argue that you don't get both abilities making this a pointless question) 4) IF you don't get both abilities, what about turning from domains? Do you channel incarnum with those abilities as well? or are they actual turning attempts (which can't be used w/ DM anyway, but is still something that I'm wondering about) I think that's all the questions I have. I know most of my answers, and provided some of them, but don't let them sway you. I'm curious as to what the community thinks. Thanks.
Todd 02-14-06, 01:42 PM	Since Channel Incarnum counts as Turn Undead for meeting pre-reqs ... I would say that functionally it counts as Turn Undead for stuff that boosts it. 1) No. 2) Yes. 3) NA ... since you don't get both. 4) No. You get both of these but can't use one for the other.
Kraydak 02-14-06, 01:56 PM	Since Channel Incarnum counts as Turn Undead for meeting pre-reqs ... I would say that functionally it counts as Turn Undead for stuff that boosts it. 1) No. 2) Yes. 3) NA ... since you don't get both. 4) No. You get both of these but can't use one for the other. But then what would happen if you already had Turn Undead (paladin levels, say) and then took Azurin Cleric-1? -Kraydak
Sir Gummibaerchen 02-14-06, 02:00 PM	Since Channel Incarnum counts as Turn Undead for meeting pre-reqs ... I would say that functionally it counts as Turn Undead for stuff that boosts it. I wondered myself if this was true. As I saw nothing to indicate that, I'd go exactly the other way and say: 1)Yes 2)No 3)TU only 4)Moot point, as I'd say you get both. But you get elemental turning from the elemental domains as normal, as they are not connected to your normal turning apart from using similar game mechanics. If you aquire an elemental domain with a druid or wizard, you still get the elemental turning ability although you can't turn undead normally. You can never use "nonstandard" (read elemental turning, greater turning or what-have-you-turning) to power Divine Feats. This was established some time ago, when CD came out afaik. Note that MoI says that Channel Incarnum replaces the cleric's ability to turn undead. So you do NOT have the turn undead class feature, and thus would get turn undead from the sacred exorcist IMO. This is actually a rather interesting matter, as MoI clearly states, that you can use Channel Incarnum as a substitute for TU when qualifying for Feats (but NOT PrCs). It does say you can use CI to power Divine Feats. It does NOT say, however, that your CI benefits from Feats/PrCs as TU. Although it strongly hints into that direction. As you are DM, I'd say it's up to you. You ARE the referee and your word overrules any RAW/RAI. I'd allow a player having both in my games. But I usually play higher-powered games, so YMMV