Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Merlin224 06-24-06, 01:18 AM	Hello all I'm new to this site and to optimziation as a whole but my friend once told me if I ever need Build help this was the place to come, he said you guys were the best so I've come to put that to the test.I thank you in advance for any and all help. Here's my deal I'm starting a new campaign right now I'm a 1st lv Rogue 1st lv fighter THe game is going to go all the way to 20 lv and then perhaps epic but epic is not for certain, so i'm going on the 20 lv's and that's it assumption. What I'm looking for are some power builds that can help me out here's the situation 1.It's a solo game So I'm the only PC {thus the need for some more power to help me out} 2.It's a god aligned game my so the build must conform to a CG alignment so no evil classes or PRC's 3.The main theme of the game is I'm a thief like my father before me chosen as he was to represent olidamara as his champion destined to eventual become the king of thieves...To acomplish this I've been given a Rapier by olidimara himself a wepon personaly owned by the god himself and passed from chapion to champion.So a melee or fighting type build would not be unreasonable under the circumstances but as I'm a member of a thieves guild some rogueish lvs or prc's should be added as well... 4.I'm a human ... no templates allowed 5.Finaly I have a special challenge I need a Wepon of legacy built using the weapon of legacy book.The blade is called "THe Blade of Silken Shadows" It's a rapier , there is no need to create the rituals to unlock the abilities the dm already has the rituals in mind he just isn't experienced enough with weapons of legacy to build one with confidence, so all I need Is the weapon's abilities chart built , nothing about history or rituals is required... the only stipulation is that the blade not be broken and it's abilities remain resonable. 6.sence I'll be leveling up as I go thru the campaign It would be helpful to have the build broken down in the order I should pick up the lv's, unless the order dosen't matter for the build. 7.Any help or suggestions as far as feats go would be appreciated , My DM has given me a house rule that in addition to the feats normaly given I also get 1 addition feat per lv choosen from any sorce (general , fighter , meta magic etc.). Thanx for the help all I'm dying to see what you come up with , and to see if my friend was right about your awesome skills.
the_taken 06-24-06, 01:32 AM	First. Two words: Spell check. Second. That's a alot of feats. Third. I'm not much help on weapons of legacy, but to make a suitable build catered to your taste, we need to know a few things first. Please come up with a slew of abilities you want your character to have without looking at any of the rule books. Don't even think a bout the rules. Just tell us what your character should be doing in a fighting sequence, and any improtant things he does outside of combat. Fourth. Are you allowed to use psionics?
the_taken 06-24-06, 01:37 AM	Fith. Would you DM consider any varient classes from the book Unearthed Arcana? Not Arcana Unearthed, Unearthed Arcana. lvl class/class 1 fighter/rogue
jstorrie 06-24-06, 01:38 AM	With all those bonus feats, I'd avoid Fighter levels - you won't really need them. Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Thief-Acrobat 4 / Nightsong Enforcer 8 / Pious Templar of Olidammara 2 (in varying orders) would work out pretty well for you. There's a lot of flexibility in how you set your levels and feats up here. Similarly you could run with Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Temple Raider of Olidammara 10 / Nightsong Enforcer 4 for a slightly more well-rounded but less combat-focused build. With 21 feats to work with you shouldn't have much trouble in the combat arena, though. I'm not a Legacy Weapon specialist so I'll leave that to someone else.
Slyver 06-24-06, 01:43 AM	A) What books are allowed? B) What are your stats? C) Is that Rogue 1/Fighter 1 Level 2 total or is this a gestalt build? D) What kind of combat do you want to do? If it is not a gestalt build I recommend suggesting it to your DM since it is a solo campaign. Slyver
Lord_Merlin224 06-24-06, 01:49 AM	no on the psionics srry I overlooked that when I made my original post. When it comes to combat my PC is mostly a duleist type character focusing on finese vs brawn hence the rapier as my weapon of choice So far my combat desires revolve around a single light weapon but I thought about maybe adding an off hand weapon like a dagger to reflect a more swashbuckling fencing style.When fighting my main focus is feints,and AoO's using cobat reflexes , fancy sword tricks and anything I can do to trigger my sneak attack damage would be great.Also anything enhancing my theft & stealth abilities .I picture him flashy and full of bravado like a rake in the Northern Crown d20 setting, Something befiting a champion of the good of rogues , revelry , trickery and wine. Here are my stats STR 16 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 18 WIS 17 CHA 18
Lord_Merlin224 06-24-06, 01:59 AM	the_taken I believe that variant classes would be fine with my dm as long as i run the class by him first. jstorrie Can you tell me what books the Pious templar or olidamara , The nightsong Enforcer , and The Thief Acrobat come from? Slyver 1.All books are acceptable as long as I can show my dm an excerpt from them pretaining to what i want to do So I have to clear a class through him by letting him look at it but I have most of the books at my dispossal and can get what I dont have so no worries there . 2.STR 16 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 18 WIS 17 CHA 18 3.It's 2nd lv ,my 1st lv is Rogue my 2nd lv is fighter 4.When it comes to combat my PC is mostly a duleist type character focusing on finese vs brawn hence the rapier as my weapon of choice So far my combat desires revolve around a single light weapon but I thought about maybe adding an off hand weapon like a dagger to reflect a more swashbuckling fencing style.When fighting my main focus is feints,and AoO's using cobat reflexes , fancy sword tricks and anything I can do to trigger my sneak attack damage would be great.Also anything enhancing my theft & stealth abilities .I picture him flashy and full of bravado like a rake in the Northern Crown d20 setting, Something befiting a champion of the good of rogues , revelry , trickery and wine.
Lord_Merlin224 06-24-06, 02:20 AM	Any more thoughts guys? , How about the weapon of legacy anyone up for that challenge?
Lord_Merlin224 06-24-06, 09:01 AM	http://e4u.deltait.com.au/sport/sport16.gif BUMP! http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/violent/sterb042.gif
DarthDave 06-24-06, 09:35 AM	Please wait at least 24 hours before bumping threads. Thanks...
Lord_Merlin224 06-24-06, 08:10 PM	no problem srry about that I'm new to the forums and am not quite clear on all the proper ettiquiet it , i'll remember to wait in the future thanx for informing me.
Kessalin Talira 06-24-06, 10:37 PM	What do you or the DM want the legacy weapon to do?
Xeraph 06-25-06, 03:52 AM	Switch your scores aorund so you start with 20 in con. Then spend all those bonues feats on Roll With It. It would give you Damage Reduction 40/- at 20th level. Im not the big expert of Weapons of Legacy, but heres an idea for a build where you use your insane scores for the best. Build could be Monk(Carmandine Monk) 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Hexblade 4/ Rokugan Ninja 4/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Bayushi Deciever 2/ Paladin of Freedom 2 This would give you: Int bonus to Initiative twice. Int bonus to AC. Mettle and Evasion. Charisma bonus to saves, and twice against arcane spells. Charisma bonus to AC. Int to bonus damage. Bab +16
Zendu 06-25-06, 06:39 AM	can you change your race? you could always make a giant slaying rogue :X
Richmud 06-25-06, 11:25 AM	You might want to consider the chameleon prestige class from races of destiny for the versitility. I'd also suggest legacy champion from the weapons of legacy book works very well with chameleon as it provides the cham with much better saves then he normally gets
Lord_Merlin224 06-25-06, 02:49 PM	Kessalin Talira Were open to any ideas on the weapon realy mostly something that would enhance my rogueish abilities maybe grant invisibilty , and work well as a dueling weapon also defending. other than that just getting creative is fine. Xeraph The game has already started so I can't change any of the posted stats or levels that he already has, ... what book is the Roll With IT feat from ? Zendu I Can't change my race as the gae has already started but my DM did say he might be open to a template addittion. Richmud Thanx for the advice I'll check out that PRC.
EldonG 06-25-06, 03:35 PM	Definitely Chameleon...and by the way, guys...that's 28 feats! Normal = 7 feats, +1 Human, +20... As a Chameleon you get 1 *floating* feat...crazy. I seriously *don't* reccomend 20 x Roll With It...you'll just end up frustrating the DM and likely see the end of your game. Still, 2 or 3...make sure one of your feats is Improved Toughness. With that many...hey. Avoid Ftr...that's good advice. Look for abilities, not feats...you have more than enough feats. I'd think something like: (Cha=Chameleon, Due=Duelist, HuP=Human Paragon) 1) Rog1 2) Ftr1 3) Rog2 4) Rog3 5) HuP1 6) Cha1 7) Cha2 8) Cha3 9) Cha4 10) Due1 11) Due2 12) Due3 13) Due4 14) Due5 15) Cha5 16) Cha6 17) Cha7 18) Cha8 19) Cha9 20) Cha10 This is an amazingly flexible build, able to play almost any part fairly well (the Chameleon is the key, here...just a few levels is amazing for flexibility) and it fights very well with the rapier. I'd do every single TWF feat there was, WF: rapier and oversized TWF, and fight with rapiers florentine. Human Paragon allows you to choose Use Magic Device as a class skill throughout your levels... (WOOT!) Definitely mine every sword trick in existence outta the books... I'll work on the Blade of Silken Shadows if you like what I've offered so far, and start mining for feats if you need more help there, as well. Let me know. :) Edit: I'd slip Shadowdancer1 in there, somewhere, now that I think of it. Missing 1 level of Chameleon won't be horrid...maybe after Duelist5...the Hide in Plain Sight is simply too sweet.
Lord_Merlin224 06-25-06, 08:30 PM	EldonG Thanx for the advice so far you're response seems to be the most detailed and helpful I real appreciate it ... I like the ideas you've stated but I have a couple of questions and a couple of statements 1.what book is the roll with it feat in 2.what book is human paragon from, also do you mena duleist from the DMG or Sword & Fist? 3.what book is the oversized TWF feat in 4.where can I find the stats and info on the rapiers florentine 5.I've had to level up scence my post (srry couldn't avoid it :( ) so I now have 1 lv of the swashbuckler core class from CW so that makes 3 so no more core classes or i'll start accruing xp penalties, also that means i now only have 17 lvs to work with. 6.I've used a few of my feats already so If you want to help me with feat suggestions I'll only have about 20 feats available. 7.My main weapon has to be my regluar rapier as it's the weapon of legacy , will that interfer with your rapiers florentine idea? 8.That being said I'd love if you'd give a go at the Wep of legacy for me,But as I mentioned earlier I'm real trying for a good solid build on it but also one not broken or so obviously over powered that It won't get approved. 9.Thanx for all your help It's greatly appreciated and Highly valued.
androcles 06-25-06, 10:48 PM	[QUOTE=Lord_Merlin224] 4.where can I find the stats and info on the rapiers florentine [QUOTE] haha lol
EldonG 06-25-06, 10:55 PM	First of all, I'd ask the DM if retraining (from the PH2) is a possibility. Swashbuckler, while not bad, requires a rethink. Answering your questions: 1) I'll have to get back with you...shouldn't take long. I'm not sure. 2) Human Paragon is from Unearthed Arcana, and Duelist is from the DMG. 3) Oversized TWF is from Complete Adventurer...it makes a normal sized weapon count as light for TWF. 4) Ummm...well...I'll give it to you, in a nutshell...it's the style of fighting where you use a rapier in each hand. Lots more sweeping moves than one rapier...no actual game specs, just TWF with rapiers. 5) Ok...unless you want to use Swashbuckler instead of levels of Rog, see above. No problem, really. 6) You have so many feats I may have trouble figuring out how to use 'em up. What do you already have? 7) Nope, see 4. I had that figured. 8) No problem...is there anything in particular he considers too much? Could I start it intelligent, with empathy, and bless 3x/day, for example? 9) Sure. Happy to help.
Lord_Merlin224 06-26-06, 09:12 PM	EldonG Thanx again for the help, I'm gonna talk to my DM and see if I can get him to let me retool my pc if I can I'm gonna try to get rid of my fighter and my shawsbuckler lv and drop them both into rouge he may not let me do that but if not I'm gonna see if he'll at least let me change my swashbuckler lv for a rogue lv if he'll let me do a complete retool and i take 3 rogue lv's i'll follow your chameloen build all the way to lv 10 if that's what you recomend, or i'll go with lv 9 chameleon and 1 lv shadow dancer wichever you think is better. Nevermind on the roll with it feat I found it it's in savage species AS far as my feats go here's what I have so far Legendary ( form AEG : Feats) Wep Focus: Rapier Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise Imp. Feint Dodge Lightning Reflexes And Wep Finesse ( from lv 1 swashbuckler) However if my dm allows me to swap out the swashbuckler lv I'll be losing the wep finesse so i'll probably have to do some feat switching in order to keep it cause I fight better with it.And if he lets me do the complete retool I'll be losing the Wep Finesse feat and 1 other do to losing the fighter bonus feat, also I'll have to replace at least one of my feats with the able learner feat so I can qualify for the chameleon PRC I'd wait on it but the feat says it has to be taken at 1st lv. And final on the Wep of Leg I'm pretty sure my DM wont have any prob with the abilities/per day like bless 3/day and what not I know he wouldn't have a problem with the wep giving me a bonus to stats & skills like every four lvs a plus to dex or something and like +5 to hide at a lv and +5 to move silently at another but I doubt he'd go for the intelligent cause It's a divine weapon and he kind of uses it for olidamara to comune with me through the blade so in a way it's kindda already intellegent or prehaps a better word would be inhabitted only it's the god channeling himself through it instead of the normal kind.
EldonG 06-26-06, 10:18 PM	Ok...cool... Personally, I'd do the Shadowdancer dip, but I just adore being able to hide *anywhere there are shadows*...soooo sweet to just fade out! Make sure you look long and hard at Chameleon...the flexibility is unbelievable, but it does require a lot of attention. If you end up playing him as one, he'll have to have a basic understanding of all four major positions in a party - front-liner, skill monkey, divine caster, and arcane caster - to be as good as he can be. Fortunately, you have plenty of feats for it. I'll give you my ideas for the Blade of Silken Shadows by morning. I picture it as having links to the plane of Shadow, giving you shadowy abilities and adding to stealth and the like...I'm going to steal an ability from one of my favorite PrCs for it...ya ever look at the Shadowblade? :D Your feats look pretty good, so far...I'll dig up a few tricks and post them, too. You should have a good day, tomorrow. ;)
Lord_Merlin224 06-26-06, 10:54 PM	ok shadow dancer it is .... I think that'll work well with the blade being linked to the plane of shadow and all . no I've never glanced at the shadowblade I gater by the evilish grin it's something to see huh?...as for the main positions no prob I've been gaming awhile so I can handle any of those and my chacater is kind of training himself to multitask anyway so no biggie there either.As far as the Rapier and Feats go great that's awesome news thanx again for all the help I realy appreciate it if there's every anything I can do to reciprocate just gimme a shout and I'd be glad to help out I have about 3 to 4 hundered RPG books over all, alot on pdf including some of the more unusual pdf's they sell on rpgnow.com and drivethrurpg.com like unorthadox bards and 14 magical codpieces and the like.. so if you ever need any research done , or need to find any prc's or feats as reference material just let me know.Thanx again & much abliged.
Lord_Merlin224 06-27-06, 12:41 AM	Hey EldonG I just checked out the human paragon class and it reminded me of a special house rule my DM is letting me use also it sparked a couple of questions.The houserule my DM uses is that he coun't class skills as character skills, meaning if I have a class skill it's always a class skill reguardless wich class the SP i'm putting into it comes from so if I have open lock from my rogue class it's considered class for me. even if I advance as a fighter It'll only cost me 1 SP per rank But the questions that the human paragon prc brought to mind was this If I have to take the Able learner feat to qualify for The chameleon PRC and that feat makes it where it only costs me 1 sp per rank to andvance a class or cross class skill Then is it realy benificial to take Human paragon as a class seeing as how the only benifit iwould gain would be a +2 will save sence the the other 2 things i'd get ( being able to select any 10 skills as class skills & the ability to have a floating class skill) are already made pretty much obsolete by the able learner feat and my second questionis If I right and it makes taking Human Paragon a waste then Should I just substitute that lv of shadow dancer we talked about for it that way We'll have the shadow dancer lv without having to sacrifice our 10 lv of chameleon...wadda ya think?
EldonG 06-27-06, 03:14 AM	Sure, that makes sense...wow, you have a lenient DM. :)
Lord_Merlin224 06-27-06, 03:45 AM	yeah well considering it's a single pc game and I'm goin rogue his being kind of flexible ... plus now that I think about it the fact that the DM is my nephew might have given me a slight edge on the compettion as they say lol.How does the mafia say it ,(spoken in my best , albeit poor brando inpersonation ) It's good to have connections in the family. :D
EldonG 06-27-06, 04:13 AM	Cool...now, if you can just convince him to not make you take the Legacy penalties. (I refuse ta use 'em...) I present to you... The Blade of Silken Shadows +1 Shadowy (trait) Defensive Surge Starmetal Rapier (Shadowy does nothing, but seems to absorb light. Defensive Surge DMG 2 p256, grants +2 AC, or +4 if using total defense, Cha bonus times/day. Starmetal works essentially like adamantine) Omen: shadows trail from the blade with each swing. Progression: 5) Darkness, self 1x/day 6) +5 Hide in Shadows 7) Cause Fear, 5x/day, DC 11+Cha 8) - 9) of Wounding 10) Telekinetic 11) Darkvision 12) +10 Bluff 13) - 14) Unseen Weapon/Unexpected Strike* 3x/day 15) - 16) Shadow Walk, as spell, 1x/day, lasts 1 hour/2 lvls 17) - 18) of Speed 19) Invisibility, Greater, 2x/day 20) Teleport, through shadow only, 3x/day *Exactly as the Shadowblade 3rd level ability, the blade shrouds itself in shadow and is unnoticed, denying the target Dex bonus. If this proves to be a problem in any way, or you have any questions, let me know. Make note - it's a +1 Wounding starmetal rapier of Speed with Defensive Surge. I reccomend using Greater Magic Weapon regularly, and getting a Scabbard of Keen Edges for it. ;) It has a low bonus for its level of power, but it hits well, nevertheless, because it's designed to strike from surprise... Edit: heck, with all the feats ya got, get Improved Critical.
EldonG 06-27-06, 05:48 AM	I'm going to give you a run-down on what I figure would be the top 20 or so feats for you...I'd take them as I could. I'm not listing those you have already. Improved Initiative Improved Critical Mobility Quick Draw Two Weapon Fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting Greater Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Defense Greater Two Weapon Defense (CW) Flick of the Wrist (") Improved Toughness (") Karmic Strike (") Power Critical (") *Shadow Striker (PH 2) Telling Blow (") Cunning Evasion (") Acrobatic Strike (") Melee Evasion (") Two Weapon Rend (") Danger Sense (CAdv) Dual Strike (") Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (") *this is sweet, sweet, SWEET! There are still an astounding number of feats to consider, but this concentrates on the ability to get in quick and cut your opponent down with an overwhelming flurry of rapier blows, and then disappear into the night. You may find another that works better for you, but consider carefully what you're trading...
EldonG 06-27-06, 05:55 AM	Just a few other hints...with Chameleon, you'll qualify for wands galore...and with MAXED UMD (don't leave home without it!) you can use 'em, anyhow. Do it. They're cheap and effective. Try and find wands with metamagic that helps on them already. Extended Cat's Grace is your buddy. I missed a feat, and I'd absolutely take it. Leadership, at 6th level. Get a Cleric as your cohort...make sure he carries plenty of Greater Magic Weapon and other buff spells...and healing spells...oh...and wands. Notice a pattern, here? ;)
Lord_Merlin224 06-27-06, 11:34 AM	WoW , I wasn't expecting so much .... thanx again , I'm just astounded how much you've done in such a short time ... especialy the fact that you did it all for a someone else , someone you don't know at that WoW Role Players Rock :) I'll have to take some time to look over those feats sence most of them are new to me , I'll also have to try to hunt down the description of some of them cause I don't yet have the PHB2 but Still from what feats I do recognize It real looks good ,Deffenitly going in the direction I invisioned him,wich is awesome.I do have just a couple of questions about the Blade of Silken Shadows though .... 1.My Dm's original desing Would allow for this wep to reach a +4 or +5 but with all the other abilites I think a +3 or +4 might be more reasonable If we were to add to the plus of the weapon wich lv's would you suggest it at?I noticed lv 8 , 13 ,15 and 17 were empty Would those be good places? 2.Also My Dm's original Design Was for a defending and keen wepon If we reworked the pluses then would defending be a better choice than defensive surge? 3.overall I realy like the build The only abitities I see that while they fit with the sword doesn't exactly fit with the fighting concept and character concept is the fear ability and thetelekenetic ability so what do you think of this idea, If we go with advancing the Weapon to a +3 or +4 then we make it defending and +2 to dex at lv 5 Replace The lv 7 cause fear5/day with a darkness self 5/day and replace telekentic at lv 10 with Keen and +2 to dex either that or split the two +2 to dexs into 4 +1 to dex and award them at 5th 10th 15th and 20th lv? Just some Ideas what do you think?
EldonG 06-27-06, 01:07 PM	All things are up to the DM, but... The skipped levels are setting up for more powerful abilities - that's how Weapons of Legacy works...you get dead levels before your big stuff, to balance them. As you build in weapon bonus and direct combat abilities, it gets harder and harder to go higher - you can only go to +10, no matter what. I concentrated on utility abilities - I figured they'd be more useful, with your build. For any more combat bonuses, you have to simply lose 1 or 2...and some of them are there for very much the main purpose of the weapon (getting in unnoticed, and getting sneak attacks). Both bonuses to hit and keen are available through spells, feats, or simply levels. You'll hit amazingly well, as it is, counting on surprise (and get SA). I'd get a magical Dex bonus from gloves, so the abilities can be built in the weapon. They don't stack. That said, some are certainly more useful than others. I'll give you the rundown...and explain why I chose what I did...substitutions are certainly possible: The Defensive Surge: it costs no bonus on the weapon bonus chart, and so sets up the weapon for cheaper increases, while still adding to the combat value. A simple +2 equivalent weapon is technically too much to begin a Weapon of Legacy with - that's 4,000 gp + weapon cost, and max is 4k. Defending weapons take away from the to-hit bonus...Defensive Surge doesn't. Still, I pushed the limit, here... Darkness: while usually pretty lousy in 3.5, this works for you on several levels...it gives you shadow, grants a bonus for stealth work, and gives great flavor. +5 Hide in Shadows: speaks for itself. Stealth is your ally. Cause Fear, 5x/day: mostly for the shadowy, creepy flavor. Very replaceable, but only with a very low level power. +5 Move Silently, perhaps. of Wounding: the first weapon bonus increase. The level is skipped to make this +2 equivalent possible, and wounding is worth it. If I'd built it with a higher weapon bonus, you'd find this unavailable until 11th level...you can get it sooner, by skipping a level earlier. Telekinetic (at will): using shadows to manipulate things. This is unbelievably useful to any rogueish character, and so in flavor it hurts. Still, replace it if you want. Darkvision: you need it, and it's in flavor. Still, very replaceable...with a moderate ability. +10 Bluff: Nobody will beat your feints, unless they're godly. 'nuff said. :) Unseen Weapon: this is what I took from Shadowblade, and I think it really defines the weapon...also scary powerful, in a subtle way. Guaranteed SA? Surprise when I need it? Thanks, I'll take 2! ;) Shadow Walk: stealth not working? Need to get there fast and unseen? Slip into the plane of Shadow...replaceable. I promise not to cry. ;) of Speed: the second actual weapon bonus upgrade, and possibly the most potent part of the weapon. Make the weapon bonus higher before this, and lose another level of the GREATER abilities to get it. This combines with Wounding for INCREDIBLE effect, making your opponent suddenly wish he'd stayed in bed... Invisibility, Greater, 2x/day: fighting unseen rocks for you. You can get it in other ways, but unless it's unlimited, more is always better. Replace it if you like. Teleport, through shadow only, 3x/day: Darn useful, screams with flavor. Still, replaceable. Seriously, the bonus on the weapon is one of the least useful things you can get, and it mangles the possibilities at higher levels. Have your cohort cast GMW, or you cast it...or get a wand. If you'd really like Dex on the weapon, wait until 17th level+, when you can get a +6 - they don't stack....but I'd guess that if you really want it, (you do. DEFINITELY) you'll already have it, by then. Heck, get a Belt of Magnificence, +6, if you can...+6 to every attribute, 200k gp. Mmmmmmmm...
Lord_Merlin224 06-27-06, 07:26 PM	Having it broken down that way realy helps alive any questions or concerns I have ( all except the fear I'm still a iffy on that one so I may take your advice and switch it with +5 to move silently) The way you described the telkenesis realy help change my mind about that and you are so right about the +'s I never looked at it that way a couple of pluses here or there VS teleport thru shadows and greater invis it's a no brainer thanx for setting me straight on that one, once again Thanx for all your hard work and don't forget If I can ever return the favor in any manner just give me a shout.I'm in your debt.~~~Lord Merlin
EldonG 06-27-06, 07:32 PM	No problem. Have you gotten your feat progression figured out?
Lord_Merlin224 06-27-06, 10:41 PM	not exactly , just yet I'm having to order the PHB2 off amazon so it'll be probably a week or sobefore I get it all worked up ... but when I figure it out I'll post what I came up with in the thread so you can tell me what ya think.
EldonG 06-27-06, 10:52 PM	Ok...cool. The PHB 2 is a great resource.
Lord_Merlin224 07-02-06, 02:49 AM	Well eldonG thanx for all the advice and help I regret that most of the work seems to have been in vain my dm shot down the chamelon class "not right for his campagin" he said he's not sure about the feats from the PHB2 yet he says he'll approve or disapprove of them on a case by case basis , and as for the sword he liked some of it and says he'll probably modify his original design but only with some of the features you suggested....I'm kindda getting the feel that even though he normaly lets players pull from almost any book that for some reason he's trying to get me to stik more to the core books he did say that If it came from the DMG or the PHB I didn't have to get approval I could just take it , but every other sorce is subject to review and approval first. So here's my next question for you , If I can prevail upon you for a lil more help. Using the DMG and the PHB mainly with all the previous staded benifits I get and my charater being either a 3rd lv rogue right now or a second lv rogue and 1st lv fighter can you think of any kind of build or tricks of the trade that could eventualy get e to the point that I could take out a 20th lv wizard? I just Found out that's the BBEG for the game a 20th lv wizard who has an iron golem construct for a body guard ( fortunately for me my DM is not at all familar with spell casting classes to my knowledge this is the first wizard he has ever done, while I on thew other hand am quite used to spell duleing in high lv wizard against wizard battles) so any advice?
EldonG 07-02-06, 03:51 AM	I'll start thinking for ya. Wizards, at that level, are incredibly flexible, and the golem is the utter bane of a sneak-attacker...so I'd likely do a gish...I'll get back with ya.
Lord_Merlin224 07-02-06, 01:19 PM	Thanks alot , in case you couldn't tell I'm at a complete loss for ideas at the moment,I know this is realy gonna peg me as a newbie and may envoke some severe laughter , but I still have to ask, What's a gish ?
EldonG 07-02-06, 03:09 PM	Gish is the Githyanki word for fighter/caster...it's a term used for anyone that simply fights well and casts magic well, also. Most gishes get at least +16 BAB and 6th level spells or better...
Lord_Merlin224 07-02-06, 06:41 PM	That sounds good I'd be willing to bet with six lv spells I could beat the dm in a spell dule his lack of experience and my ample experience gives me a good edge I believe.
EldonG 07-02-06, 08:40 PM	Ok...core only sucks...it avoids so many sweet tricks, but try this...and ask what else he *might* approve...I'd hate to go through working out a whole crazy build and tune it, to just be shot down again...this is pure core, though: Rog3/Ftr2/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight5/Shadowdancer1/Arcane Trickster4 Honestly, it kinda sucks compared to a lot of the crazy stuff on the boards, but it'll get you 7th level spells. The +13 BAB should be a bit higher, and sacrificing the Arcane Trickster and Shadowdancer in favor of Eldritch Knight10 would actually give you +1 caster level and a 16 BAB, but I think the extra 2d6 SA, the 1 free surprise attack a day, and Hide in Plain Sight more than makes up for a little BAB with this character...you wouldn't cast 8th level spells, anyhow... Some thoughts: If you're good at them, you could go specialist: Illusion and do some pretty crazy stuff. You might want to consider a few feats toward spellcasting...again, I can help, but let's see where you're going to end up going... Are you going to be able to swap the Ftr level for Rgr? The Golem...that'll just plain suck, but there are some new spells, one of which actually lets you hurt golems a lot worse...Golemstrike. Make SURE you get it!
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 04:19 AM	yeah If i want , right now my dm is letting me retool the pc he's third lv so i can either start him back as a rogue 2 / fighter 1 or rogue 3 the choice is up to me. Here's a quick questionfor you if I went the eldritch Knight 10 route the one with the extra BAB and one more caster lv you said that wouldn't put me high enough to cast 8thlv spells yet, but what if I added an orange Ioun stone to increase my caster lv by 1 on top of it all, would that put me high enough to cast 8th lv spells? , and if the awnser is yes then is that the better route to take in your oppinion?
EldonG 07-03-06, 04:53 AM	yeah If i want , right now my dm is letting me retool the pc he's third lv so i can either start him back as a rogue 2 / fighter 1 or rogue 3 the choice is up to me. Here's a quick questionfor you if I went the eldritch Knight 10 route the one with the extra BAB and one more caster lv you said that wouldn't put me high enough to cast 8thlv spells yet, but what if I added an orange Ioun stone to increase my caster lv by 1 on top of it all, would that put me high enough to cast 8th lv spells? , and if the awnser is yes then is that the better route to take in your oppinion? The ioun stone won't actually give you the level, it'll just make spells a little more powerful. It's really a judgement call, but the SA damage is really most of the damage you're going to be doing. I'd be careful about ditching too much of it...and the hide in plain sight...that's pretty scary powerful for a character like yours. If I did anything it would probably be using Rgr levels instead of Ftr. Oh...it's the Shadowdancer level that you'd have to give up for the spell boost, anyhow...and I was wrong, you'd only get BAB 15. Sorry...I was half-asleep. Think buffing spells...rings of wizardry...wands...rods...scrolls...
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 05:05 AM	oh i didn't know it didn't give you an actual spellcasting lv , that's how my dm has always ruled it that it lets you cast spells as if you were one level higher including granting spells per dAy and spell lvs castable and spell dc's and all that jazz, so considering he'll let it act in that fashion does that change your mind or do you still hold to the original advice,?Also my dm is huge on his antagonists using true sight does that overcome hide in plain site or not? Also when using hide in plain sight do i still make a hide check vs my opponents spot check or is it morelike an invisibilty ability where I'm just suddenly not there?
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 05:15 AM	If i could get my dm to approve ascetic rogue what would you think about a rouge monk build if I take kung fu genius and went with rogue 1/monk 2/swashbuckler 3/rogue all the rest of the way , that would give me some extra attacks plus (int+lv+SA) to my damage , that was a build I found online somewhere I wasn't sure how sound it was though what do you think? also one quick question does anyone know of a feat or ability that lets you use combat reflexes to unload all your AoO's on the same target after he provokes an AoO?
the_taken 07-03-06, 11:20 AM	also one quick question does anyone know of a feat or ability that lets you use combat reflexes to unload all your AoO's on the same target after he provokes an AoO?I don't, and I seriously dought there is one.
EldonG 07-03-06, 01:31 PM	Ok...a few things...I really can't advise you on houseruled things...what are the odds that he'll wake up and notice things aren't right? As to the Hide in Plain Sight...you do have to hide, so there is a spot check, even if he can see through otherwise, so ultimately, the True Sight is meaningless. (I think. I've been wrong before, usually multiple times a day.) As to discarding spellcasting...well, if you do, make twice as sure to have a spellcasting (preferably cleric) co-hort. Make doubly sure to have Golemstrike. Next thought...I don't see Monk working in your build. All you'll get out of your two levels is Wis to AC, and some fighting ability if you get disarmed. The AC you can get from light armor with no loss, and have a higher AC. Are you worried about being disarmed? I'd carry a few extra daggers to offset that. As to the rest...a Rogue can be a good fighter, if played carefully, and you could use all the rogue levels you can shoehorn in, with your style... I wouldn't concentrate on AoO fighting. If you want to see an AoO monster, take a look at Jack B. Quick, or my own build, the Ultimate Chain Fighter? (I put the question mark there because I'm trying to work out the definitive collection of feats to make him exactly that.)
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 02:43 PM	So if I'm following everything correctly then your recomended build would be the Rog3/Ftr2/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight5/Shadowdancer1/Arcane Trickster4 build right?... not the Rog3/Ftr2/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight10 and an ioun stone to get the higher bab and the 8th lv spells. two questions 1.for this build is sorceror better than wizard? 2.Is golem strike a spell I can use permenacy with and if so would I make it perment on me or my weapon?
EldonG 07-03-06, 02:49 PM	So if I'm following everything correctly then your recomended build would be the Rog3/Ftr2/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight5/Shadowdancer1/Arcane Trickster4 build right?... not the Rog3/Ftr2/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight10 and an ioun stone to get the higher bab and the 8th lv spells. two questions 1.for this build is sorceror better than wizard? 2.Is golem strike a spell I can use permenacy with and if so would I make it perment on me or my weapon? I would say that sorcerer is not superior, but in fact, wizard is...it takes an extra level to get into Eldritch Knight...and you won't be going through spells that fast - you mostly concentrate on melee combat. The spell flexibility will definitely be in your favor as well. If your DM allows you to make Golemstrike permenant...ok...but if you rarely fight golems, I'd think that spending the xp on it rather counterproductive...and still dispellable.
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 09:51 PM	Hoody Hoo and a double Woot! I've solved my golem trouble I found a feat in a book my DM allows called splintering strike It not only allows me to sneak attack constructs It also increases the damage they take by 2d6 so no prob in that department anymore now all I need is a few tricks to deal with that wizard here's a question hopefuly someone can awnser , If you have a chain contengency set to go off whenever anyone casts time stop will it trigger before the time stop goes into effect or does the time stop go off first?
EldonG 07-03-06, 09:55 PM	The time stop will take effect first, but ultimately, it will only matter if there is something that'll stop it the *instant* the time stop ends. I would think that even delayed blast fireballs wouldn't catch you if you had a contingency: teleport set to go when someone casts a time stop. Cool feat...where is it? 3rd party, I assume?
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 10:51 PM	Ultimate feats from mongoose publishing I believe.It's one of thier ultimate series books. So if my contengency was wall of force in a dome shape around me when ever time stop is cast then the wizard casts time stop and unloads a bunch of magic missles , time stop would go off before my WoF and when time stop ended the MM would then hit me before my WoF came up as well? If so contengency is useless against time stop right? just checking before I start getting my contengencies in mind
EldonG 07-03-06, 11:02 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure you can't unload Magic Missles like that. They fire off and do their effect the same round...and time is still going for the caster. That's why the classic spell in time stop is delayed blast fireball...or all the buffing you can do.
Lord_Merlin224 07-03-06, 11:32 PM	ok then for the sake of it letssay that instead of MM he uses delayedblast fireball same 2 questions
EldonG 07-03-06, 11:39 PM	It should work...I'd probably set a teleport out, myself, though.
Lord_Merlin224 07-04-06, 12:39 AM	oh I agree I was just asking as a what if is all my. standard contingency is teleport with out error.
EldonG 07-04-06, 02:15 AM	:)
Lord_Merlin224 07-04-06, 04:47 AM	I was looking over the build you suggested and had a question I was looking at eldritch knight and trying to figure out the main benifit of that class and as far as I can see it's only real benifit is you gain a spell lv plus fighter bab advancement, and scence the main combat goal seems to rely on denying them there dex bonus and then going forthe sneak attack I was looking at it and think what could i gain in place of that bab if i wnet with another class, here's what I came up with tell me what you think , I could go this route Rogue 3/Wiz 6/Shadow Dancer 1/Arcane Trickster 10/ This would net me a sneak attack of 7d6 a bab of +10 and a caster lv of 16 combined with the ioun stone the way my DM lets me use it would also give me access to 9th lv spells , also I get to use that AMAZING impromptu sneak attack 3/day wich is pretty awesome, and all I've lost in exchange is 3 bonus feats ( wich isn't much considering I get 1 bonus feat a lv anyway) and +4 to my bab wich isn't enough to grant me my 4th attack anyway and I know that means i'll be hitting a lil less effectively but after denying people thier dex bonus to ac that should even out alot I'd think. and if I absolutely need some more bab I could swap out the shadow dancer lv for another lv of rogue that would grant me +1 more bab and uncanny dodge ( a pretty good ability in it's own right especialy for my kind of light armored build) I know you love the hide in plain sight ability but that's all that lv grants no bab or anything else.But I'm still willing to keep it in if you think it'd be better to have it , I was only suggesting replacing it if you think my bab is just to low and I need that exta attack that the +1 bab would grant me.so what do you think?
EldonG 07-04-06, 05:08 AM	Arcane Trickster is a good class...I was mostly concerned that it means you aren't so good at combat, which seemed to be your main focus...still, with careful spell selection, you can make it work. Combat rogues do rather well...but even they tend to have better BAB. You'll need to rely heavily on spells to fight well, past your initial attack. Still...one good round will be a lot of damage, assuming the target is vulnerable. As to Shadowdancer...keep in mind that the Hide in Plain Sight is usable at will, anytime there is shadow around...which is almost always. That means being able to simply disappear, virtually anytime, virtually anywhere. Now...you'll get plenty of that kind of ability as a spellcaster, and it is likely that you'll have things to hide behind, anyhow...but it isn't at will, and it isn't in plain sight. It's a tradeoff. If you have something you want more...do it...just be aware of what you're trading. Keep in mind...it's you that's going to be playing the character...do what works for you.