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Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fang3
09-16-06, 10:51 AM I am starting a new campaign for my players, they havent played for years. We will start with a stand-alone TSR module lvl7, pregenerated characters, everyone will be CORE rules only (cleric has a FR god though).

After that game, i plan on letting them respec their PCs in everyway except race.

What i am asking here is advice on Class/PrC/templates/etc. choices, any idea is welcome, i m quite open but they have to be FR compatible, no eberron etc.

The whole team is evil aligned (their choice), the campaign will take place near Calaunt/Raven's Bluff/the Vast, but the PCs can come from pretty much anywhere.
The different PC concepts are:

A Cleric of Myrkul. (i was thinking some type of necromancer PrC).

A Rogue. (he has to be both a semi-decent melee since party is only 4 ppl and a disabler too, since the campaign involves a lot of dungeon crawling).

A Barbarian. (any hard hitting PrC should do, the party will face some magic resilient foes so they need to be able to rely on him).

A Wizard, Necromancer. (probably more focused on dmg dealing and survivability than summons/undead creations).

Thank you in advance for any advice on race/class/PrC choice for these chars (levels will be anywhere 7 to 9 by the time i allow them to respec outside CORE rules).
DaveTheMagicWeasel
09-16-06, 11:10 AM True Necromancer in Heroes of Horror could fit either the Cleric or the Wizard (though I don't play FR so don't know how well it would match the particular god). Or there's Pale Master (Libris Mortis I think has the most recent version).

For Rogue - Nightsong Enforcer is popular (Complete Adventurer), or you can take the Ascetic Monk feat (Complete Adventurer as well) and then go Monk 1 / Rogue 19, for 20th level Monk damage, but still be a proper Rogue. Skullclan Hunter (Miniatures Handbook) is also very good since it lets you Sneak Attack undead and increases survivability by quite a lot.

Barbarian - don't allow Frenzied Berzerker. Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) isn't bad. Or perhaps multiclass as a Blackguard, or Paladin of Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana). Or Hexblade in Complete Warrior for 3 levels to help the Will save. And in PHB2 there's the Steadfast Determination feat that lets you use Con for Will saves, which is every Barbarian's dream come true.
Fang3
09-16-06, 11:43 AM Thanks a lot Dave i just checked the different classes except for Skullclan Hunter since i dont have miniatures handbook.

True Necromancer in Heroes of Horror could fit either the Cleric or the Wizard (though I don't play FR so don't know how well it would match the particular god). Or there's Pale Master (Libris Mortis I think has the most recent version).

True Necromancer (from libris mortis actually ;) ), Pale Master
or even Dread Witch or Fleshwarper or Alienist would probably suit the Wizard Player, the grizzliest the better and can handle clerical spells from true necro imo.
The Cleric on the other hand was usually playing concepts like Buffer/tanker type clerics, relying on heavy buffage to make him a survivor in a rather selfish way ;) , so i wonder if there s any evil aligned, death god compatible, full spell progression buffer/smiter typed cleric PrC around.:confused: :confused: :confused:

For Rogue - Nightsong Enforcer is popular (Complete Adventurer), or you can take the Ascetic Monk feat (Complete Adventurer as well) and then go Monk 1 / Rogue 19, for 20th level Monk damage, but still be a proper Rogue. Skullclan Hunter (Miniatures Handbook) is also very good since it lets you Sneak Attack undead and increases survivability by quite a lot.

Nightsong looks appealing, though teamwork isnt the group's second name, i was actually giving a look to classes like Scorpion Heritor (Sandstorm p.86) (some fighting abilities and still a full fledge rogue) or maybe Ghost-Faced killer (Complete Adventurer p51) with Able Learner from Race of Destiny to buf up Disable Device.

Barbarian - don't allow Frenzied Berzerker. Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) isn't bad. Or perhaps multiclass as a Blackguard, or Paladin of Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana). Or Hexblade in Complete Warrior for 3 levels to help the Will save. And in PHB2 there's the Steadfast Determination feat that lets you use Con for Will saves, which is every Barbarian's dream come true.

What's wrong with Frenzied Berzerker :( ? Bear warrior sounds ok, but foes will mistake him for an animal companion and focus his caster buddies :D , not too fond of characters with multiple base classes but Paladin of Slaughter could be appealing to him for sure.
Fang3
09-16-06, 12:29 PM :bump:
Phase
09-16-06, 03:17 PM People are afraid of FB being PC's because it can easily turn into a TPK, but theres a few solutions, such as having the wizard dominate him, or have him take levels in Warblade from Tome of Battle and get Wild Surge, it immediatly ends a effect that is on the character, IE Frenzy, dominate, charm ext..

If the barb doesnt want to take anything from ToB or isnt allowed i would suggest to make him into a charger with Robliar's Gambit(PHBII), its a great combo with a cleric by your side and shocktrooper(CW).

Charging feats would be like:
Headlong Rush(UE, Orc only)
Battle Jump(RoF)
Getting a weapon with Valorous(its only a +1 but deals double dmg on charge)

And if he likes the idea of a charger, he can take a level or 5 into Psywar to get Up the Walls and Speed of thought, then get hustle and Psionic lions Charge.

As for the wizard, im not into spell casting because iv refused to play them after seeing some hardcore abuse in my group, and the cleric just have him take Divine Metamagic: Presistant(sp?) Spell and have his buffs last all day.

Hope that helps

-Phase
Fang3
09-16-06, 05:31 PM Thank you Phase, quite helpful, both FB build (the wizard can deal with frenzy side effects imo ;) ) and the charger build look great actually, this will make a strong melee damage dealer, at least as strong as i want him to be.
jameswilliamogle
09-16-06, 05:55 PM Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) can be a fun alternative to a Necromancy wizard. Make sure he takes Tomb-touched Sould from Libris Mortis.
Fang3
09-17-06, 05:06 AM Ok, after more research into the books, and some good advice on your part guys, i think we're heading to something like:

The Rogue: Rogue/Scorpion Heritor (str boosted, decent fighting goodies, and still a full rogue) or Rogue/Nightsong Enforcer.

The Wizard: Dread Necromancer (cool class, too bad they have sorc spell progression and a set spell choice) or Wizard/Cleric/True Necromancer (sacrifice some spell level acess but gain huge versatility while sticking to necromancer concept).

The Barbarian: Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker (the whole unreliable killing machine is fun for both sides imo)

The Cleric: not really sure here, maybe Cleric of Myrkul/Master of the Shroud

Still looking for advice, ideas, thank you all for your helpful comments so far.
PS: Base race has to be "core rules" for each char, since they start from full PHB chars and are later to be retrained, i wont go as far as to change base race though. But any interesting template can work, Half-fiend?Necropolitan?Lycanthrope?
Fang3
09-17-06, 10:27 AM :bump:
Zzasrix
09-17-06, 11:05 AM The Cleric: not really sure here, maybe Cleric of Myrkul/Master of the Shroud

MotS isnt really in the flavor of the buffing/tanking type you were saying the player is looking to play. Also, i personally dont like MotS because by the time you finish MotS your summons are hardly worth getting into the fight.

Ur Priest, could fit both your campaign and the character feel.

Also, if they want to go druid, Blighter may be a fun option as well. The other nice part of that is that he wont be stepping on any party role toes if the Necro has Cleric in him.
Fang3
09-17-06, 12:24 PM MotS isnt really in the flavor of the buffing/tanking type you were saying the player is looking to play. Also, i personally dont like MotS because by the time you finish MotS your summons are hardly worth getting into the fight.

true... true... :weep: if you have any more suggestion for Buff/tank PrCs with full spell progression i m taker :P

Ur Priest, could fit both your campaign and the character feel.

Appealing class, but i kinda liked the idea of him worshipping a dead god, a Death dead god in fact;)

Also, if they want to go druid, Blighter may be a fun option as well. The other nice part of that is that he wont be stepping on any party role toes if the Necro has Cleric in him.

He's just too fond of clerics, he has played Druids before, but Cle is what he prefers. Though, the comment about him stepping on the wizard's toes is true, i want them clearly different...

Oh well i may end up with him playing a Ur-priest, you're prolly right, the class has everything he likes, including the "powergamer flavor".
Fang3
09-17-06, 07:47 PM :bump:
jameswilliamogle
09-17-06, 08:27 PM I think going Sorcerer (or Sorcerer-like classes) is a better way for arcanists to learn the 3.5 magic rules, as it allows you to focus on a few spells learning the intricacies really well (some wizards never even cast all the spells in their spellbooks), but I guess that's your call.
X-Codes
09-17-06, 08:48 PM I'm chiming in to second the Rogue 19/Monk 1 idea. Sure his BAB isn't the greatest, but he still can somewhat easily deal SA damage to enemies and throw out a very decent stunning fist DC with Ascetic Rogue. Just about any race with rogue, monk, or any for a favored class would do, especially if it doesn't have high LA. Strength is less important in this build than it is in other monk builds, however keeping intelligence a little higher than normal is helpful. Being a Tiefling can help the MAD.

For the Barbarian, I say take him to Barbarian 5/Fighter 1. Take Intimidating Rage, Dreadful Wrath (PGtF, if you have it), and Intimidating Attack and then go Blackguard to synergise Charisma even *more* with Divine Power and the -saves aura (which also affects the level check opposing the Intimidate skill). After Divine Power picking up Extra Rage will give the build some extra endurance. This build is all about Strength, Constitution, and Charisma, and it doesn't need either Intelligence or much Dexterity at all. It also gets Survival as a class skill and should keep it at a decent level (+6ish is fine).

For the Cleric, I think being a Cleric of Velsharoon would be better than a Cleric of Myrkul considering that the latter is, well, dead. Velsharoon has access to the Undeath, and Magic domains which are among the best in the game. Give this guy a decent intelligence and he can also get good Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive ranks. For a PrC, nothing says "devoted to a god" like Divine Disciple. You even get a bonus domain from it, which I think should be Evil considering the similarities between the Undeath and Death domains. The Undeath domain also begs a cleric to use Divine Metamagic. Persistent Spell is ideal, although Quicken and Fell Animate are also fun. This cleric only really cares about wisdom. Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma should also be reasonably high, but none of them are particularly vital to the build.

...and now we come to the Wizard. I say this guy should go the route of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer. If memory serves, it's a straight Wizard build, and would benefit greatly from the 3.5e version of the Incantatrix in the Player's Guide to Faerun because of it's heavy use of Metamagic. You can find it listed in the Necromancer Handbok here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129&page=1&pp=30).
PhaedrusXY
09-17-06, 09:51 PM If the cleric goes with Master of Shrouds for a PrC, he should take a 1 level dip into another class with a good Will Save. This will let him take his first MoS at character level 4. He should also load up on Divine Metamagic, as the MoS requires Extra Turning and gives you another instance of the feat at first level.

The Planning and Undeath domains set you up for Persistant Spell. I don't know of any deities that actually have both of those, but I think one should. They fit together well. Undead have alot of time on their hands. Time to plan devious plots that take centuries to implement. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fang3 09-16-06, 10:51 AM	I am starting a new campaign for my players, they havent played for years. We will start with a stand-alone TSR module lvl7, pregenerated characters, everyone will be CORE rules only (cleric has a FR god though). After that game, i plan on letting them respec their PCs in everyway except race. What i am asking here is advice on Class/PrC/templates/etc. choices, any idea is welcome, i m quite open but they have to be FR compatible, no eberron etc. The whole team is evil aligned (their choice), the campaign will take place near Calaunt/Raven's Bluff/the Vast, but the PCs can come from pretty much anywhere. The different PC concepts are: A Cleric of Myrkul. (i was thinking some type of necromancer PrC). A Rogue. (he has to be both a semi-decent melee since party is only 4 ppl and a disabler too, since the campaign involves a lot of dungeon crawling). A Barbarian. (any hard hitting PrC should do, the party will face some magic resilient foes so they need to be able to rely on him). A Wizard, Necromancer. (probably more focused on dmg dealing and survivability than summons/undead creations). Thank you in advance for any advice on race/class/PrC choice for these chars (levels will be anywhere 7 to 9 by the time i allow them to respec outside CORE rules).
DaveTheMagicWeasel 09-16-06, 11:10 AM	True Necromancer in Heroes of Horror could fit either the Cleric or the Wizard (though I don't play FR so don't know how well it would match the particular god). Or there's Pale Master (Libris Mortis I think has the most recent version). For Rogue - Nightsong Enforcer is popular (Complete Adventurer), or you can take the Ascetic Monk feat (Complete Adventurer as well) and then go Monk 1 / Rogue 19, for 20th level Monk damage, but still be a proper Rogue. Skullclan Hunter (Miniatures Handbook) is also very good since it lets you Sneak Attack undead and increases survivability by quite a lot. Barbarian - don't allow Frenzied Berzerker. Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) isn't bad. Or perhaps multiclass as a Blackguard, or Paladin of Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana). Or Hexblade in Complete Warrior for 3 levels to help the Will save. And in PHB2 there's the Steadfast Determination feat that lets you use Con for Will saves, which is every Barbarian's dream come true.
Fang3 09-16-06, 11:43 AM	Thanks a lot Dave i just checked the different classes except for Skullclan Hunter since i dont have miniatures handbook. True Necromancer in Heroes of Horror could fit either the Cleric or the Wizard (though I don't play FR so don't know how well it would match the particular god). Or there's Pale Master (Libris Mortis I think has the most recent version). True Necromancer (from libris mortis actually ;) ), Pale Master or even Dread Witch or Fleshwarper or Alienist would probably suit the Wizard Player, the grizzliest the better and can handle clerical spells from true necro imo. The Cleric on the other hand was usually playing concepts like Buffer/tanker type clerics, relying on heavy buffage to make him a survivor in a rather selfish way ;) , so i wonder if there s any evil aligned, death god compatible, full spell progression buffer/smiter typed cleric PrC around.:confused: :confused: :confused: For Rogue - Nightsong Enforcer is popular (Complete Adventurer), or you can take the Ascetic Monk feat (Complete Adventurer as well) and then go Monk 1 / Rogue 19, for 20th level Monk damage, but still be a proper Rogue. Skullclan Hunter (Miniatures Handbook) is also very good since it lets you Sneak Attack undead and increases survivability by quite a lot. Nightsong looks appealing, though teamwork isnt the group's second name, i was actually giving a look to classes like Scorpion Heritor (Sandstorm p.86) (some fighting abilities and still a full fledge rogue) or maybe Ghost-Faced killer (Complete Adventurer p51) with Able Learner from Race of Destiny to buf up Disable Device. Barbarian - don't allow Frenzied Berzerker. Bear Warrior (Complete Warrior) isn't bad. Or perhaps multiclass as a Blackguard, or Paladin of Slaughter (Unearthed Arcana). Or Hexblade in Complete Warrior for 3 levels to help the Will save. And in PHB2 there's the Steadfast Determination feat that lets you use Con for Will saves, which is every Barbarian's dream come true. What's wrong with Frenzied Berzerker :( ? Bear warrior sounds ok, but foes will mistake him for an animal companion and focus his caster buddies :D , not too fond of characters with multiple base classes but Paladin of Slaughter could be appealing to him for sure.
Fang3 09-16-06, 12:29 PM	:bump:
Phase 09-16-06, 03:17 PM	People are afraid of FB being PC's because it can easily turn into a TPK, but theres a few solutions, such as having the wizard dominate him, or have him take levels in Warblade from Tome of Battle and get Wild Surge, it immediatly ends a effect that is on the character, IE Frenzy, dominate, charm ext.. If the barb doesnt want to take anything from ToB or isnt allowed i would suggest to make him into a charger with Robliar's Gambit(PHBII), its a great combo with a cleric by your side and shocktrooper(CW). Charging feats would be like: Headlong Rush(UE, Orc only) Battle Jump(RoF) Getting a weapon with Valorous(its only a +1 but deals double dmg on charge) And if he likes the idea of a charger, he can take a level or 5 into Psywar to get Up the Walls and Speed of thought, then get hustle and Psionic lions Charge. As for the wizard, im not into spell casting because iv refused to play them after seeing some hardcore abuse in my group, and the cleric just have him take Divine Metamagic: Presistant(sp?) Spell and have his buffs last all day. Hope that helps -Phase
Fang3 09-16-06, 05:31 PM	Thank you Phase, quite helpful, both FB build (the wizard can deal with frenzy side effects imo ;) ) and the charger build look great actually, this will make a strong melee damage dealer, at least as strong as i want him to be.
jameswilliamogle 09-16-06, 05:55 PM	Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) can be a fun alternative to a Necromancy wizard. Make sure he takes Tomb-touched Sould from Libris Mortis.
Fang3 09-17-06, 05:06 AM	Ok, after more research into the books, and some good advice on your part guys, i think we're heading to something like: The Rogue: Rogue/Scorpion Heritor (str boosted, decent fighting goodies, and still a full rogue) or Rogue/Nightsong Enforcer. The Wizard: Dread Necromancer (cool class, too bad they have sorc spell progression and a set spell choice) or Wizard/Cleric/True Necromancer (sacrifice some spell level acess but gain huge versatility while sticking to necromancer concept). The Barbarian: Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker (the whole unreliable killing machine is fun for both sides imo) The Cleric: not really sure here, maybe Cleric of Myrkul/Master of the Shroud Still looking for advice, ideas, thank you all for your helpful comments so far. PS: Base race has to be "core rules" for each char, since they start from full PHB chars and are later to be retrained, i wont go as far as to change base race though. But any interesting template can work, Half-fiend?Necropolitan?Lycanthrope?
Fang3 09-17-06, 10:27 AM	:bump:
Zzasrix 09-17-06, 11:05 AM	The Cleric: not really sure here, maybe Cleric of Myrkul/Master of the Shroud MotS isnt really in the flavor of the buffing/tanking type you were saying the player is looking to play. Also, i personally dont like MotS because by the time you finish MotS your summons are hardly worth getting into the fight. Ur Priest, could fit both your campaign and the character feel. Also, if they want to go druid, Blighter may be a fun option as well. The other nice part of that is that he wont be stepping on any party role toes if the Necro has Cleric in him.
Fang3 09-17-06, 12:24 PM	MotS isnt really in the flavor of the buffing/tanking type you were saying the player is looking to play. Also, i personally dont like MotS because by the time you finish MotS your summons are hardly worth getting into the fight. true... true... :weep: if you have any more suggestion for Buff/tank PrCs with full spell progression i m taker :P Ur Priest, could fit both your campaign and the character feel. Appealing class, but i kinda liked the idea of him worshipping a dead god, a Death dead god in fact;) Also, if they want to go druid, Blighter may be a fun option as well. The other nice part of that is that he wont be stepping on any party role toes if the Necro has Cleric in him. He's just too fond of clerics, he has played Druids before, but Cle is what he prefers. Though, the comment about him stepping on the wizard's toes is true, i want them clearly different... Oh well i may end up with him playing a Ur-priest, you're prolly right, the class has everything he likes, including the "powergamer flavor".
Fang3 09-17-06, 07:47 PM	:bump:
jameswilliamogle 09-17-06, 08:27 PM	I think going Sorcerer (or Sorcerer-like classes) is a better way for arcanists to learn the 3.5 magic rules, as it allows you to focus on a few spells learning the intricacies really well (some wizards never even cast all the spells in their spellbooks), but I guess that's your call.
X-Codes 09-17-06, 08:48 PM	I'm chiming in to second the Rogue 19/Monk 1 idea. Sure his BAB isn't the greatest, but he still can somewhat easily deal SA damage to enemies and throw out a very decent stunning fist DC with Ascetic Rogue. Just about any race with rogue, monk, or any for a favored class would do, especially if it doesn't have high LA. Strength is less important in this build than it is in other monk builds, however keeping intelligence a little higher than normal is helpful. Being a Tiefling can help the MAD. For the Barbarian, I say take him to Barbarian 5/Fighter 1. Take Intimidating Rage, Dreadful Wrath (PGtF, if you have it), and Intimidating Attack and then go Blackguard to synergise Charisma even more with Divine Power and the -saves aura (which also affects the level check opposing the Intimidate skill). After Divine Power picking up Extra Rage will give the build some extra endurance. This build is all about Strength, Constitution, and Charisma, and it doesn't need either Intelligence or much Dexterity at all. It also gets Survival as a class skill and should keep it at a decent level (+6ish is fine). For the Cleric, I think being a Cleric of Velsharoon would be better than a Cleric of Myrkul considering that the latter is, well, dead. Velsharoon has access to the Undeath, and Magic domains which are among the best in the game. Give this guy a decent intelligence and he can also get good Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive ranks. For a PrC, nothing says "devoted to a god" like Divine Disciple. You even get a bonus domain from it, which I think should be Evil considering the similarities between the Undeath and Death domains. The Undeath domain also begs a cleric to use Divine Metamagic. Persistent Spell is ideal, although Quicken and Fell Animate are also fun. This cleric only really cares about wisdom. Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma should also be reasonably high, but none of them are particularly vital to the build. ...and now we come to the Wizard. I say this guy should go the route of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer. If memory serves, it's a straight Wizard build, and would benefit greatly from the 3.5e version of the Incantatrix in the Player's Guide to Faerun because of it's heavy use of Metamagic. You can find it listed in the Necromancer Handbok here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129&page=1&pp=30).
PhaedrusXY 09-17-06, 09:51 PM	If the cleric goes with Master of Shrouds for a PrC, he should take a 1 level dip into another class with a good Will Save. This will let him take his first MoS at character level 4. He should also load up on Divine Metamagic, as the MoS requires Extra Turning and gives you another instance of the feat at first level. The Planning and Undeath domains set you up for Persistant Spell. I don't know of any deities that actually have both of those, but I think one should. They fit together well. Undead have alot of time on their hands. Time to plan devious plots that take centuries to implement. ;)