Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kanaric 10-11-05, 12:51 AM	Lately people have been getting annoyed with our GM. He is good for the most part but their are some things that I dont feel like getting into. Anyways a few people are starting to roll up broken characters behind his back since hes not 100% with most of the rules besides the basics. One of these people plays a child whose a psionic character, not sure what PRC as he wont tell me, but he gets away with a lot and has a mob of 30+ thrall followers who somehow think hes a god. Oh ya, at level 5 he also killed a CR 15 dragon. Another guy who is good at rolling up characters just started his so i'm not sure of what he is doing. Anyways I would use the broken psionic character with the infiniate loop to gain 20k in all stats but our DM has the tendency of stopping things LONG before something would get to that. Hell it took me AGES just to summon my animal companion. I need something not obvious. It also should start off being near-broken to start or at least being incredibly powerful. Our levels right now are 5-7 and he would let me roll a lvl 6 character if I made a new one now. I have ALL the books at my disposial and also he lets people use Mongoose Publishing books as well, which I also have. Also note that their are a lot of dragons in this campaign, and they are important. Which is why people are making anti-dragon characters as well. edit: One reason why I want to do this to the DM is that he lets this small group of three people roll whatever they wish and they ALWAYS make something incredibly overpowered/broken. Then me and everyone else whose trying to play normally are having troubles even RPing the way we want or using our abilities. He forces us into things and pushing us for wanting to do somethign besides what he wants us to do while the other people do as they wish. also forgot to add, no warmages. They are banned in his campaigns.
PhoenixInferno 10-11-05, 01:07 AM	Putting broken characters into an obviously broken game is the fastest way to not be playing D&D. Instead of making broken characters to ruin the game, you should just rotate the DM out - have another player take the reins for a while. Perhaps a player who knows the rules a little bit better.
RadicalTaoist 10-11-05, 11:07 AM	Yeah, optimized power is not the way to handle this. It's an OOC issue.
Khan the Destroyer 10-11-05, 11:29 AM	One of these people plays a child whose a psionic character, not sure what PRC as he wont tell me, but he gets away with a lot and has a mob of 30+ thrall followers who somehow think hes a god. Oh ya, at level 5 he also killed a CR 15 dragon. The prestige class is most likely Thrallherd in the Expanded Psionic Handbook. And I seriously doubt he legally killed a CR 15 dragon at level 5, optimized or not. Anyways I would use the broken psionic character with the infiniate loop to gain 20k in all stats but our DM has the tendency of stopping things LONG before something would get to that. Hell it took me AGES just to summon my animal companion. Pun-pun's power can be achieved by level 5. As in, you could roll in with the Manipulate Form ability and be stronger than anything else. His level 5 incarnation doesn't have any psion levels. It is Divine Minion template +1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3. When play starts, get your infinite action combo going and become as strong as you would like. Make sure to gain extra actions from the Chronotryn and Choker so that you can act after the Synchronicity loop. I need something not obvious. It also should start off being near-broken to start or at least being incredibly powerful. Our levels right now are 5-7 and he would let me roll a lvl 6 character if I made a new one now. Well, Pun-pun gets going at level 5, and I don't think Divine Minion+Master of Many Forms is obviously broken.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-11-05, 11:49 AM	Free Wild Shape as Druid 11? I'd call it pretty broken. I'm not at my home computer right now; this is a placeholder for a monk build I typed out last night but couldn't post. (Stupid maintenance.)
Khan the Destroyer 10-11-05, 12:19 PM	Free Wild Shape as Druid 11? I'd call it pretty broken. Into one or two animal forms. There is a difference between 'overpowered' and 'broken'.
lostone 10-11-05, 12:46 PM	The prestige class is most likely Thrallherd in the Expanded Psionic Handbook. And I seriously doubt he legally killed a CR 15 dragon at level 5, optimized or not..It is possible if the DM doesn't know how to run the dragon in combat. Forgetting things like SR, iterative attacks, etc can really nerf a dragon's combat ability. :D
tsuyoshikentsu 10-11-05, 08:21 PM	Into one or two animal forms. There is a difference between 'overpowered' and 'broken'. I'm not talking about forms, I'm talking about meeting prerequisistes. Here's the monk build I promised: (I'm not familiar with Mongoose at all, btw. I'm also assuming you can use Dragon stuff.) That being said, try this: Half-Minotaur Half-Orc Half-Orc Paragon 1/Monk 3/Shou Disciple 01 REQUIRED STATS: DEX 13 STAT PRIORITY: STR, CON, DEX/WIS, INT, CHA ABILITY MODIFIERS: +6 STR, +2 CON, -4 INT, -2 CHA LEVEL BAB FOR REF WIL SKILL ABILITIES LA+01 --- --- --- --- ----- Feat (Dodge) HOP01 +01 +02 +00 +00 4+INT Divided Ancestry, Monstrous Mein Mnk01 +01 +04 +02 +02 4+INT Feat (Weapon Focus[Unarmed Strike]), Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike Mnk02 +02 +05 +03 +03 4+INT Ability Score Increase, Bonus Feat, Evasion Mnk03 +03 +05 +03 +03 4+INT Still Mind ShD01 +04 +07 +05 +03 4+INT Shou Disciple Unarmed Strike REQUIRED SKILLS: Balance 4 Jump 8 Knowledge (Local[Thesk OR Shou expatriate]) Tumble 4 RACIAL ABILITIES Base Speed: 40 ft Size: Large Reach: 10 ft (2 squares) Natural Armor: +2 Darkvision 60 ft Orc Blood Minotaur Cunning: +4 on INT checks to escape mazes; Automatically discerns north Scent: Can locate creatures up to 30 ft by smell Skills: +2 racial Listen/Search/Spot Bonus Feat: Track This puppy (er, orc-cow) has the benefit of not looking like you're trying to break anything -- until two things happen. First, try to get two fanged rings -- these each increase your Unarmed damage by one size category. (THIS INCLUDES YOUR GORE ATTACK.) A monk's belt and a sparring ummy of the master are nice, but not really nessecarry. Now, here's what you do: next two levels, take Shao Disciple 2 and 3, then get yourself some Heavy Gauntlets ("Heavy" being a special materials descriptor -- ie, made from gold or platinum -- from Magic of Faerun) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy Gauntlets). With those and the rings, your fists now deal the unarmed damage of a Colossal Monk of your Monk level + your Shou Disciple level. Eventually, you may want to take Half-Orc Paragon 2 for Rage 1/day -- or maybe Human 1-3 to get an ability boost that could offset the INT loss, add a WIS boost, or make your insane strength even higher. The aforementioned monk's belt will help offset the Unarmed dice and AC hits you take from Paragon class levels, and the sparring dummy will let you take 10 ft steps instead of 5 -- crazy when your reach is 10 ft. NOTE: According to some readings of Half-Minotaur, you'd also get the stat changes listed in the MM for increasing a size category. As this is insane beyond all reason and I as a DM would never allow it, I've chosen not to include them. However, if you go that way, add these bonuses: STR +8 DEX -2 CON +4 Natural Armor +2 Sources: Half-Minotaur - Dragon #313 pg. 94 Half-Orc Paragon - Unearthed Arcana pg. 41 Shou Disciple - Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East pg. 32 Fanged Ring - Dragon #308 pg. 41 Monk's Belt - Dungeon Master's Guide pg. 248 (Worth mentioning as it can be hard to find; it's listed under Belt, Monk's.) Sparring Dummy of the Master - Arms and Equipment Guide pg. 137 "Heavy" descriptor - Magic of Faerun, pg. 179 (sidebar) Human Paragon - Unearthed Arcana, pg. 43 Enjoy!
Seeker of Truth 10-11-05, 09:17 PM	Nothing says subtle power like an anthopomophic::feral::mineral warrior::Baleen Whale
Aki Warren 10-11-05, 09:22 PM	If you are suggesting a build other then Pun Pun You don't know pun pun
tsuyoshikentsu 10-11-05, 09:43 PM	If you are suggesting a build other then Pun Pun You don't know pun pun I'm suggesting a build other than Pun-Pun because he specificly said that Pun-Pun wouldn't work. I know Pun-Pun very well, in fact. I intend to use him to prove to my friends why kobolds are not wimpy.
Kanaric 10-11-05, 10:03 PM	Well the thing is that their are several other games going on and this IS the persons campaign, so we can't really rotate out. This is the only day most of us can play, heh. Also he wouldn't let me use divine minion. Its a FR setting template PLUS it has a lot of bonuses that he wouldn't like. The psionic character that killed the CR 15 dragon did do it. The dragon didn't see him so first he used recall agony on it. It ran away and he used a spell on it so it could choose to move or breath, so it fell out of the sky. He then made it helpless, dont remember how, so then he coup degraced it. This character was a lvl 5 psionic (dont know what class), hes also using the prodigy rule so hes 6 years old in game. He is known for ******* off the GM by dominating PCs. I do need a class, i dont want one that relies on loops because that would be simply stopped. It has to be something that wont be obvious. I dont want to copy this guy as well, idk wth hes playing as just that he uses that thrall herd class and has a "evil cult" or whatever that follows him. The game is allready broken, no way to fix it and the DM wont turn it over since its his setting. He will let me use anything, so long as its not obviously broken so I figure i may as well join in. tsuyoshikentsu that is a funny class, but he only allows a +1 lvl adjustment. edit: just realized it IS +1, that is funny. The psi-child would probably stop that character though. Unless its immune to mind effecting. forgot to mention, he lets us use campagn setting classes, so long as their not too specific. Like that shou PRC i'd have to check with because it has a specific region requirement that isn't in his setting.
queen's rook 10-11-05, 11:05 PM	Your fellow gamer is probably 'fudging' some rules to his favor. The 30 cohorts sounds abit much for the level of gaming described. Offing a signifigantly more powerful dragon?- solo?! Your psionic friend can kill you with a thought. Don't get caught up in the 'my character can kill your character' bs. Make an indispinsible character, say marshal/bard. Be your psion's right hand man and personal spokesperson. Great for party harmony and further twists an already bent/broken game. And after you've earned his trust, nail him to a cross, tell his followers he died for their sins, and rule the world... or not. ps- if being dominated is a serious threat, use divine metamagic+persistant spell+protection from X. 1st level cleric spell, 3 feats, easily within your power range. And their are plenty of brokeness to be found in persistant divine magics. For RP fun, your character can be debating whether or not the psion is your god's 'only begotten son'.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-12-05, 12:20 AM	Actually, it sounds more like your psionic prodigy is the problem, not so much your DM. It's easy to find a way to subtly break a game, it's hard to get away from the domineering psi-child from Hel. (The plane, WizOs, the plane!) I don't use psionics much, so I can't really tell you a way of getting around them. Anyone know anything?
PhoenixInferno 10-12-05, 01:25 AM	Coup de Grace isn't an autokill - you only autocrit and force a Fort save, which a CR 15 dragon should probably have made.
Khan the Destroyer 10-12-05, 01:44 AM	The psionic character that killed the CR 15 dragon did do it. The dragon didn't see him so first he used recall agony on it. It ran away and he used a spell on it so it could choose to move or breath, so it fell out of the sky. He then made it helpless, dont remember how, so then he coup degraced it. Even the weakest type of true dragon, the White, at CR 15 has a +15 to its Will saving throw. Are you saying that this dragon failed its saving throw 3 times in a row (Recall Agony, Brainlock, and Disable) all without being able to attack the psion back in any manner? Note that with a max of 5 power points spent on each power, the psion can't boost the DC very high by augmenting. Unless he has an atrocious Intelligence modifier (nothing short of 40-50) that dragon should have had a better than even chance at making those saves. And the Psion penetrated its SR each time as well? Sounds fishy. Especially considering that the dragon was well within range of a flying charge if the psion was hitting it with medium range powers. I know you didn't ask us to critique your other players, but you insist that part of the problem is that the other players play 'broken' characters. I insist that at least this psion may be cheating.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-12-05, 01:51 AM	I insist that at least this psion may be cheating. Was being too polite to say it. Psionic prodigy-kid sounds like a wonderful archetype for a cheating Mary Sue to me. (Or the male form, if this whiz kid is male. "Mary Sue" is a not-too-polite term from fanfics either meaning someone that's too cliched or, as in this usage, someone that's too perfect.)
lostone 10-12-05, 07:49 AM	Even the weakest type of true dragon, the White, at CR 15 has a +15 to its Will saving throw. Are you saying that this dragon failed its saving throw 3 times in a row (Recall Agony, Brainlock, and Disable) all without being able to attack the psion back in any manner? Note that with a max of 5 power points spent on each power, the psion can't boost the DC very high by augmenting. Unless he has an atrocious Intelligence modifier (nothing short of 40-50) that dragon should have had a better than even chance at making those saves. And the Psion penetrated its SR each time as well? Sounds fishy. Especially considering that the dragon was well within range of a flying charge if the psion was hitting it with medium range powers. I know you didn't ask us to critique your other players, but you insist that part of the problem is that the other players play 'broken' characters. I insist that at least this psion may be cheating.Or just as likely the DM doesn't know his :censored: from a hole in the ground, and doesn't know that psionics have to beat SR, looked at the wrong column/table for will save, etc. Or maybe there is some out of character favoritism? Is the psion player related to or dating the DM? Best buds? Business partners? DM owes the player money? :P
Far_Traveler 10-12-05, 11:06 AM	Prodigy Rules? where can i find these prodigy rules?
Debug0x2a 10-12-05, 11:50 AM	I get the feeling that the best broken build you can sneak up on your DM with would be a diplomacy bard. For a very simple one try Bard/Evangelist. Nothing seems terribly broken about that... until you start taking Negotiator and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) with Sacred Vow and every synergy that pertains to Diplomacy in the book. And even then the DM wont realize how powerful it is until you first use it seeing as you will be well versed in the Diplomacy rules. Even hostile dragons can be changed to friendly with a DC 35 roll or so. My level 9 bard had a +31 Diplomacy check and that was without being overtly broken. Human 1 Bard1 - Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty 2 Bard2 - Nymph's Kiss 3 Bard3 - Negotiator 4 Bard4 - Vow of Purity 5 Bard5 6 Bard5/Evangelist1 - Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Vow of Abstinance With the synergy bonuses from Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and Sense Motive, and the bonuses from Sacred Vow, Nymph's Kiss, Skill Focus, and Negotiator, at level 6 you end up with a +24 Diplomacy Check. If you think it wouldn't **** the party off too much, you could also replace Purity and Abstinance with Nonviolence and Peace, granting you an additional +4 for a total of +28. The DC to change a hostile enemy to friendly is 35, and even if you miss that, the DC to change the hostile enemy to indifferent is only 25, and you cant miss on that. In addition, the rules do state that bypassing a fight counts as succeeding in the encounter, thus you do gain XP for doing so as long as actual purpose for the encounter (usually to get past the dragon) is completed. On top of that, your AC will be at +9 from your Vows, so with a Dex mod of 3, you'll have 22 AC. Stock up on skills like hold person and the like and simply convert or disable your foes. Once u level a few times, you'll get fast talker and skill master so you can make your diplomacy at a -5 bonus and take 10 to complete it in 1 round. At level 5 of Evangelist you can even convert foes to your religion. Will save or become nonviolent. And if they are a cleric/paladin, will save of lose all connections with your deity. Ouch.
Kanaric 10-12-05, 05:20 PM	I get the feeling that the best broken build you can sneak up on your DM with would be a diplomacy bard. For a very simple one try Bard/Evangelist. Nothing seems terribly broken about that... until you start taking Negotiator and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) with Sacred Vow and every synergy that pertains to Diplomacy in the book. And even then the DM wont realize how powerful it is until you first use it seeing as you will be well versed in the Diplomacy rules. Even hostile dragons can be changed to friendly with a DC 35 roll or so. My level 9 bard had a +31 Diplomacy check and that was without being overtly broken. Human 1 Bard1 - Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty 2 Bard2 - Nymph's Kiss 3 Bard3 - Negotiator 4 Bard4 - Vow of Purity 5 Bard5 6 Bard5/Evangelist1 - Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Vow of Abstinance With the synergy bonuses from Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and Sense Motive, and the bonuses from Sacred Vow, Nymph's Kiss, Skill Focus, and Negotiator, at level 6 you end up with a +24 Diplomacy Check. If you think it wouldn't **** the party off too much, you could also replace Purity and Abstinance with Nonviolence and Peace, granting you an additional +4 for a total of +28. The DC to change a hostile enemy to friendly is 35, and even if you miss that, the DC to change the hostile enemy to indifferent is only 25, and you cant miss on that. In addition, the rules do state that bypassing a fight counts as succeeding in the encounter, thus you do gain XP for doing so as long as actual purpose for the encounter (usually to get past the dragon) is completed. On top of that, your AC will be at +9 from your Vows, so with a Dex mod of 3, you'll have 22 AC. Stock up on skills like hold person and the like and simply convert or disable your foes. Once u level a few times, you'll get fast talker and skill master so you can make your diplomacy at a -5 bonus and take 10 to complete it in 1 round. At level 5 of Evangelist you can even convert foes to your religion. Will save or become nonviolent. And if they are a cleric/paladin, will save of lose all connections with your deity. Ouch. Actually a class like this is what I was planning on to play in the first place. The vows are among the few things he doesn't allow. The guy who is playing the psion right now usually rolls a character like that. A monk with vow of poverty... Also someone said that the child shouldn't be able to have 30 followers. He has 1 lvl 7 cleric npc, a couple of dominated players, and the remaining are lvl 1 npcs. He was only able to do this AFTER he killed the dragon and gained a couple levels. The choking move he did to it instantly brought it to 0, DM rolled a 2 on will. He needed a 3 to succeed. Thats how he killed it.
Caelic 10-12-05, 05:40 PM	Heck, all you need is the first half-elven racial substitution level for Bard. That's it. Who needs to Dominate CR15 dragons when you can force them to sit down and listen quietly while you talk them into being your buddy?
deathwishjoe 10-12-05, 06:23 PM	I allways thought making a diplomacy nanobot character would be pretty sweet. maybe using some zombie bats swirling around you to make you more impressive. the epic DCs of diplomacy let you turn people into fanatics *grins evilly* a fanatic will kill themselve to fulfill your every whim. a level 5 necro should be able to summon 10HD worth of undead. with 5 HD of undead per caster level. with I believe 2 levels of pale master you can cast create undead as a SLA once a day negating the cost of undead. with 10 HD of zombie bats at 1/4 HD each you should have 40 zombie bats. As only 25 bats can help aid you on a skill check per 5'/5' square you take up your need to get a bit bigger to utilize all the bats to make you more impressive but with roughly half of them suceeding the DC 10 check and adding +2 to a skill check you now have +40 to your diplomacy check. lets see with max diplomacy at like level 5 we have 8 ranks + (lets say were a sorcerer necro so we have 18 in cha) +4 attribute bonus +40 from bats aiding you == 52. DC to making indifferent people into fanatics is 60. roll higher then an 8 and you've got your own religion going just like the psion. making a hostile dragon freindly DC is 50. at fifth level you can make anyone like you and most people want to give there live to protect you. that and if you want you can use the feat that i believe is called fell animate (libris mortis) and kill your bats (with a fireball maybe) and do 1d6 damage in a 10' radius per bat killed. 40 bats die == 40d6 negative damage. no SR no save allowed. average damage at level 5 == 140 damage. not bad really.
batstek 10-12-05, 08:09 PM	With the Half-Elf bard racial sub levels, you can pick up the aforementioned freakin' sweet Calm Emotions, and then take leadership. Your cohorts can Aid you, so pretty much nothing will be uncalmed. Then, take Sublime Chord at higher levels, and turn it into a backup orchestra for Song of Arcane Fire Aid Another Perform Bonuses. Easy way to rack up incredible damage. Hell, you could even take Consecrate Spell Like Ability from BoED and make that unresistable by those darn dragons a few times a day.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-12-05, 08:23 PM	He was only able to do this AFTER he killed the dragon and gained a couple levels.(Emphasis mine.) Wait, wait, wait, WHAT? YOU CAN ONLY GAIN 1 LEVEL PER ENCOUNTER! (I think.)
Spellbinded 10-12-05, 09:03 PM	YOU CAN ONLY GAIN 1 LEVEL PER ENCOUNTER! (I think.) That is, in fact, exactly right. If you are otherwise able to gain more then one level per encounter, then, according to the DMG, you are 1 xp away from the next level (beyond the first.) So, it's probably a house rule. And yeah, it certainly sounds like it's the psion's player that's causing the most problems, not the DM. He must've made one hell of a roll to have enthralled the DM into accepting/overlooking his blatant cheater-fu, though. :D