Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nnnnn 01-11-07, 10:20 PM	In another thread, a poster by the name of "Book" says: the difference between an unoptimized and a fully optimized fighter is rather small when in comparison of the same situation for the other classes (like wizard, cleric, etc). It's hard to build a really bad fighter for most folks - whereas it is really easy to build a crappy wizard. What are the main ways that you can really really screw up your wizard build? nnnnn
iconoplast 01-11-07, 10:21 PM	Give up caster levels?
MeklorIlavator 01-11-07, 10:23 PM	go full damage spells. If you want to do that, be sorcerer, or warmage.
Rancorous_Fool 01-11-07, 10:27 PM	cleric 1/wizard 1/rogue 1/sorc 1/bard 1/ etc etc Level 20 0 BA!!
PhaedrusXY 01-11-07, 10:44 PM	Learn only fire spells. :P
MeklorIlavator 01-11-07, 10:59 PM	Learn only fire spells. :P Actually, learn only cantrips and 1st level spells. Any caster that only has level 1 spells at level 5 is in deep trouble.
Jaisin 01-11-07, 11:05 PM	1) Take feats that cannot allow you to qualify for any PrC, and are better suited to a martial class. 2) Alternately, take feats that will benefit a high level caster at early levels, and focus on only one type or school of spells. 3) Have 10 in your casting stat, and take 20 levels of Wizard with both of the above options. :P In reality, it can be difficult chosing which feats to select when, and what PrC (if any) a wizard enters into. Combat Casting? Improved Initiative? Dodge? Iron Will? Martial Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword? What in the world could he be thinking? Spellguard of Silverymoon, Abjurant Champion, Dragonslayer, Rumathari Battlemage? Any/all of the above? The biggest killer of wizard builds is confusion on the path, or boredom with the current progression. Trying to change it half way through just doesn't add up to another character who knows what he wants and goes full steam ahead into it - the whole way.
Aralen 01-11-07, 11:14 PM	go full damage spells. If you want to do that, be sorcerer, or warmage. QFT That's the worse error a wizard can make. Also, not having scrolls.
MeklorIlavator 01-11-07, 11:36 PM	QFT That's the worse error a wizard can make. Also, not having scrolls. I thought it was too bad for anyone to do, but a new guy trying to join our group presented it to us. Oh, and he knew nothing about casting or preparing spells in general.
Sabo 01-12-07, 12:00 AM	I thought it was too bad for anyone to do, but a new guy trying to join our group presented it to us. Oh, and he knew nothing about casting or preparing spells in general. I hope someone hit that new in the head with a PHB.
Valdrax 01-12-07, 12:06 AM	Specialize in Enchantment in an undead / ooze / construct / etc. heavy game. Give up Transmutation & Conjuration for any school. Ignore Concentration under the assumption you will always be able to safely cower in the back party. Try to be a party healer with Arcane Disciple (Healing) and Spontaneous Healing. Go for Master Specialist (Transmuter). Go for Elemental Savant (Fire). Focus on Summoning Spells in a game with greater than 6 players and don't prepare or intimately learn the stats of your summoned monsters. Great way to become hated for slowing down the game. Play a race with LA.
The Jake 01-12-07, 12:20 AM	Play a race with LA. I disagree with this. LA buyoff makes LA's inconsequential assuming its not absurdly high (like LA 4+). I'm playing a drow and bought off my LA and I'm only a fraction of a level behind everyone in the party (essentially 1/6 of a level behind the party average). For what I get, I can live with that.
Valdrax 01-12-07, 12:53 AM	Of course. I always forget about LA buyoff since it's UA variant and not usable everywhere.
Adolph_Kheebler 01-12-07, 01:10 AM	Playing something with a low LA is not that bad. The only template/race with greater than 3 LA it is reasonable for a caster to take though is lich. However the absolute worst way to play a wizard was done in a game I played in a while ago. First of all he played a drow (we didn't have Unearthed Arcana and weren't using buy-off rules). On top of that he decided he wanted to be a natural were dire bat. In the end he had a level adjustment of 5 and 4 racial hit dice. I wish that was it but it was just the beginning. On top of that he decided he took a level of fighter to get armour and weapon proficiency and wandered around wearing fullplate despite the ASF and didn't even get mithral to reduce the ASF. He also spent a feat on exotic proficency and all the TWF feats to use a double sword, and this was 3.0 so you had to get ambidexterity as well. And to top it all, the only multiclassing he did was that one level of fighter. After that he went straight wizard. He mainly fought (and sucked) with his double sword and occasionally tried (and failed) to cast spells. I could not make up crap this bad. This guy played this character for 3 months before we managed to hammer it in to him how badly it sucked.
Seeker of Truth 01-12-07, 01:31 AM	It's really not true that it's easier to screw up a wizard than a fighter. What is true is that it's much easier to misplay a wizard than a fighter.
dog45 01-12-07, 01:56 AM	Learn only fire spells. :P That's not so bad. You can take Searing Spell, and there's a couple other [Fire] specific feats that would make you turn out okay, at least for dealing damage. Also, Archmages Mastery of Elements could help. If you were referring to just taking all damage spell, then yeah, that would gimp the wizard as a wizard without utility spells is a poor mans warmage. ----- I think common mistakes for wizards are something like: - totally dumping physical stats. anything below 8 and you're begging the dm to ability drain you out of the fight. - trying to deal damage primarily with AoE spells. They're good for mooks, but your time is better spent on BC or buffs/debuffs. - not being prepared for emergencies. utility scrolls are your best friend. spend the cash and your party will love you.
BenSan 01-12-07, 02:02 AM	I don't think a poor spell selection qualifies as wrecking a wizard build. A wizard can recover relatively easily from that; all it takes is time and money to expand his spellbook in the necessary direction. Now, if he not only chose spells poorly but then spent his feats on Spell Mastery for them, we have a problem.
FriendlyFrog 01-12-07, 09:04 AM	I think the biggest problem is not knowing how to play a Wizard effectively more than not knowing how to make an effective one. As those who do the latter also almost always do the former one too, it's easy to think that you can easily screw up a Wizard. But unless you do something very stupid, a Wizard might not be completely lost. Even an Evocer who has banned Abjuration and Conjuration has hope. If something's not optimized, it might not be completely useless! As long as a Wizard has no LA, has high enough Int to cast his spells, and doesn't lose too many caster levels, an experienced Wizard player can take the character over and rock with it. A Wizard doesn't need feats, and he doesn't have to use the ones he has, stupid specialization only limits a Wizard, it doesn't completely stop him, and even if having a negative modifier in Con makes a Wizard extremely vulnerable, playing smartly helps surviving a lot. The spell selection might limit him more or less, but as long as he can get a scroll or two... So what I'm saying is: Even if there's a bigger difference in power levels between a great Wizard build and a poor Wizard build than there is between a great Fighter build and a poor Fighter build, the poor Wizard could still kick the great Fighter's ass.
Darhelion 01-12-07, 09:31 AM	Learn only fire spells. :P <Dark_Schneider> I don't know any cold spells. </obscure reference> As for bad builds, take Wizard into any of the following (and follow them through): Green Star Adept Acolyte of the Skin Mindbender Also, unless you've got some trick dependant on wands, picking up Craft Wand is a wasted feat. They cost the same as scrolls, and it is no harder to make a very long scroll of 50 spells than it is to make a wand of 50 spells. Your party rogue can go steal his own spell trigger toys. Finally, if you want a bad wizard, pick up Enlarge, Widen, or (with rare exceptions) Maximize, still, or silent.
Prominence 01-12-07, 09:35 AM	Go wizard 20, find a bunch of artifacts, and cast Mage's Disjunction on them. Lose all your powers. That's a pretty good way to screw up your wizard.
Phoenix00 01-12-07, 09:35 AM	Learn only fire spells. :P Not bad with energy subsitution rods.
WombleHunter 01-12-07, 11:10 AM	Also, unless you've got some trick dependant on wands, picking up Craft Wand is a wasted feat. They cost the same as scrolls, No they don't. Wands come cheaper per charge.
Endarire 01-12-07, 12:34 PM	I disagree with the above statement. Admittedly, you need more work on a day-to-day level to make your wizard effective. You need to know what enemy types are most common. You need to know your team's tactics and what spells you favor. Having said that, tanks need more work on the by-level plan. While a wizard20 is probably bland but probably viable, a tank must properly multiclass and choose his feats to be effective. As a tank, expect wizards to surpass your effectiveness when they can cast L5 spells. After that, you need to make yourself a threat, such as by being a gish or being a dragon. -EE
Rusher 01-12-07, 12:56 PM	Take one level of barbarian. Power Attack Leap Attack Skill focus: Mining(!) Rage and charge at every creature with reach in the battle. At this point all your other feats/spells are just fluff because you will soon be a humorous memory that your group will never EVER forget.
Abulafia 01-12-07, 01:07 PM	Are you distinguishing at all between bad builds that someone might actually conceive (i.e., poor spell selection, losing too many caster levels in a bad gish build, etc.), and bad builds that reach a more theoretical level of stupidity (wiz/forsaker, +2 LA wiz 4/sor 5/bard 6/ftr 3, etc.)?
Timlagor 01-12-07, 01:13 PM	Abulafia: you clearly haven't experienced the true horror of people's potential foolishness.
Abulafia 01-12-07, 01:17 PM	Abulafia: you clearly haven't experienced the true horror of people's potential foolishness.Two years ago, I DM'd a game for four players who all wanted to play bards. Not bard-like builds; not bards in different roles (skill guy, healer, caster, etc.); not bardish multiclasses. Bards. The lute-strumming idiot kind. Think Elan from Order of the Stick. Don't talk to me about foolishness, friend. ;)
Khan the Destroyer 01-12-07, 01:19 PM	These suggestions ccan be said for the Fighter as well: -Use only unarmed strikes without taking Improved Unarmed Strike. -Grab Power Attack and only use Light Weapons. And yadda yadda yadda. I completely disagree with Book by the way. The large variety of spells and feat options that a wizard has makes it so that unless you are deliberately trying to hinder your character, your wizard should have a few decent tricks up his sleeve. Not so for the fighter. The fighter needs to specialize, and doesn't have access to as many resources as a wizard. Mostly, a fighter gets feats. And these feats are pretty static. A wizard gets spells, and feats that allow him to manipulate his spells (whether those are Reserve Feats, Metamagic Feats, or whatever else they are going to get). Further, magic items allow wizards to manipulate their spells in different ways as well, by giving them unmodified metamagic, recalling used spells, or reducing the price by which they acquire these spells.
schulerta 01-12-07, 01:27 PM	Go for Master Specialist (Transmuter). Go for Elemental Savant (Fire). What is wrong with Master Specialist (Transmuter)?
Valdrax 01-12-07, 02:48 PM	What is wrong with Master Specialist (Transmuter)? Almost any other PrC is better than a Master Specialist (Transmuter). The school esoterica for Transmutation are utterly worthless. The PrC is better than being just a straight Wizard 20, but there are significantly better PrCs that you could work towards. It won't "screw up" your character quite like Elemental Savant will, but it will waste a lot of potential.
PhaedrusXY 01-12-07, 03:20 PM	Two years ago, I DM'd a game for four players who all wanted to play bards. Not bard-like builds; not bards in different roles (skill guy, healer, caster, etc.); not bardish multiclasses. Bards. The lute-strumming idiot kind. Think Elan from Order of the Stick. Don't talk to me about foolishness, friend. ;):rofl: YOU WIN THE THREAD! :bounce: