Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HeadofVecna 12-13-05, 08:12 PM	I'm in the early stages of putting together a world-spanning Dragonstar-esque campaign. Ideally, the players will be able to use material from any source subject to DM permission. Starting level would be somewhere between 17 and the low twenties. The problem isthat even in the core system rules a number of things seem to be badly out of balance. Fighters and Rogues are are hopelessly outclassed by spellcasters. Shapechange effects seem problematic, especially if MoMF or other methods of extension are in the mix. Here are some of the things I'm considering in hopes of balancing things out. - assigning a 10+% experience penalty to spellcaster levels - adding relatively cheap spell resistance items that impede outgoing magic - giving rogues powerful information warfare abilities through the infonet/psiweb - adding mecha with built-in two-way spell resistance - cheapening and strengthening physical enhancement implants to the point that they can compete with but not stack with form bonuses. Anybody have critiques on possible unintended consequences these changes might have? All comment on balancing house rules is welcome.
SoulGamit 12-13-05, 08:17 PM	nerf shapechange, ban disjunction.
X-Codes 12-13-05, 08:29 PM	nerf shapechange, ban disjunction. Actually, just ban disjunction. Everything else is handled by AMF. Disjunction's ability to destroy AMF's is something that really tips the balance over to the arcane spellcasting side (and divine too if they obtain it through a domain). Mord's Disjunction is more powerful than many of the lower epic spells in the ELH.
PonTelon 12-13-05, 09:22 PM	I would not ban Master of Many Forms. It's one of the more fair shapechangers, I think. You could always just remove them all but Alter Self. If they want to look like an Angel, let them use Illusion. I personally don't have a problem with this in my groups, but I don't have many power gamers in my group, and we are always triggerhappy on house rules. ; ; Just do what I do: Make sure that every player realizes that you withhold the right to change the mechanics/rules for a character at any time you deem it worthy. I don't see banning all of polymorph because someone /might/ break it. I'd just rule against it if someone does break it. Problem solved. There is nothing wrong with reactive DMing.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-13-05, 09:59 PM	The best way to counter high level unbalancing problems is with heavy duty enemies. I DM high level stuff myself, and this is what I've come up with thus far. 1.) Battles must be within a dungeon. Doesn't matter if it's cool, or normal to have out-door battles... always move things deep underground so that you have control over the environment. Outside battles with mobile PCs is a nightmare to keep track of and is very difficult to control. This nerfs chargers a bit, but it's for the better believe me. 2.) Don't be afraid to throw in some traps! It gives the rogues something to do and it's not always expected. My favorite high level traps include: resetting mord's disjunction traps, power word stun traps (resetting) over lava pools, power word kill traps, weird traps (the spell), force cage traps that trigger a lava flow into the room, etc. Wicked traps will provide plenty of incentive to play the rogue. Word of caution: don't use too many traps, one one or two per session as the party will be overly paranoid. 3.)Use low level NPCs en masse. My favorite tactic is the missile truck (valued at about 20-50,000 gp). It's a cube of halflings wilders with the swarmfighting feat that nuke everything with their wild-surged midnight augmented energy powers. The effect: a metric ton of damage to the whole party... every round. Best yet, the cube probably won't give the party much in the way of XP. (I think this one is in my BBEG thread somewhere). 4.)When in doubt, add more templates. Monster don't have high enough strength? Slap on a few templates and throw them a tome. Instant gratification, with no added treasure. 5.)Want to challenge the fighters? Undead, constructs, and oozes all are anti-caster enemies, and only fighters are really effective against them. Rogues? Unless they're really tricked out will have a hard time against these types as they are immune to critical hits. 6.)More anti-casters? AMF is good, but a bit boring. For good mage challenges throw in prismatic walls, enemy casters with the initiate of the seven fold prestige class (see my technicolor mage build in the sig for a good example). Umm... golems w/ magic immunity are good for this task as well. The pseudonatural template grants ungodly SR, which is the equivalent of magic immunity. Counter spellers are good too. Use both counter spelling tactics and readied damaging spells to provoke concentration checks. 7.)Don't be afraid to bust out the nerf stick. Use the time stop varient (which allows for SR checks) if necessary. Make sure you use the eratted version of shapechange... or just ban it outright. But don't totally kill 9th level spells, they're the pinnacle of caster achievement. 8.) Enemies with dispelling abilities are good, such as the Suel Arcanamach's dispelling strike. If they use mord's disjunction, use it right back at them.
Dread Khan 12-13-05, 10:22 PM	On average, I'd have to agree that fighters/rogues get less dangerous at higher levels, for one thing because damage base of weapons... A wizard's fireball gets better, a fighter's sword might get magicky, but for one round damage, it gets surpassed easily since it doesn't get any more damaging itself. :S Thus, boost some epic melee feats. :P
catharz 12-13-05, 10:52 PM	You could replace the D&D spellcasting (and psionic) classes with the ones in d20 Modern. That should keep spellcasters on about the right level of power. Invocations are a great option. Warning: Not all the d20 Modern stuff is balanced either.
HeadofVecna 12-13-05, 11:30 PM	Thanks for the response everyone. With some of these ideas in hand, I’m pretty certain that I’ll have no problem making things challenging enough for all. But my primary goal is for traditionally weaker classes to feel as uber as the casters. As suggested preemptive nerfing (upon players aren’t inclined towards abuse but have wildly varying CO skills) is probably not the way to go. But, as much as possible, I’d like to tweak game mechanics to buff non-casters into a rough equivalence. Any opinions as to whether my preliminary idea go to far/not far enough? Need more details? Catharz and Dread Khan: I’ll definitely take another look at epic melee feats and modern caster classes
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-13-05, 11:45 PM	Like I said, nerfage isn't needed if you provide a good challenge. If one character starts shining... cut him down. Be ruthless. Counter his tactics, but don't completely shut him out. It's a delicate balance.
nastynate 12-14-05, 01:05 AM	It's challenging to balance things out with melee types and rogues vs. wizards and divine casters, but it can be done. The first thing to consider is the number of encounters each day. A spellcaster who knows he is likely to face only one or two encounters a day, will be able to fling around ninth level spells with reckless abandon. However if he's going to be facing five or six encounters before resting, he'll be forced to either reserve some of his nukes or run out. The second part of high level campaigns that keeps things balanced for all your character types are skill based encounters. making things like disable devise, diplomacy, gather information, etc important to the success of the adventure enables characters likes rogues, rangers, and bards to flourish, where they otherwise would not. The mobility and versatility of spellcasters and the wildshape abilities of druids, often lead to easy outs for normally difficult encounters. Make sure to manipulate the environment in your favor. A dungeon crawl through the storm sewers of a major city, will make area of effect spells far less potent. Confined spaces will limit both your shapechanging druids, and area of effect bombs, which results in opportunities for fighters and rogues to shine. You of course need to throw a few encounters in that will enable a high level spellcaster to unleash his full fury, otherwise why play one? But you are quite right that it takes planning and knowledge of the capabilities of each character to make these adventures work. Random encounters really stink at this point, because they often end up as a showcase for your spellcasters, while the other pcs sit back and watch. Just plan your npcs like you would plan a pc. At high levels it's time to bust out the really min/maxed (optimized is the politically correct terminology these days...sigh) enemies. Throw a couple iron golems, a shadowdancer/blackguard with the spellcasting harrier feat, a spiked chain wielding half dragon ogre tripper, a beholder, a few clerics, and a dozen fighters at them. Why hold back when the pcs are so powerful. Do it all in a dungeon, and watch the mayhem ensue! High levels is when things get really fun as a DM. You get to bust out all your nasty ideas and put them to good use. Killing pcs is far less threatening when the party cleric can cast true resurrection four times a day, and the wizard has contigency teleport spells. You finally get the freedom to do just about anything.
Dread Khan 12-14-05, 02:28 AM	Note, make sure you use at least one Hellfire Wyrm... I mean, how can you have an epic adventure WITHOUT trying to face such a beasty? PS extra heads lub up Hellfire Wyrms. :P They are harder on people with low HP totals, since its hard to resist their deadly breath weapon, thus wizards/sorcerers must be very careful around such enemies.
Senevri 12-14-05, 07:07 AM	You've gotten some good advice, it seems. But frankly, in D&D, "Balance" is already an iffy term, but "Balance high level play" makes me give a laconic, mock-laugh of "hahaha." Could be worse, could be "Balance Epic-level play." ;) In all honesty, if you can get players to play towards similar goals, it'll work out okay, regardless of individual power levels. Still, be wary of mages, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. No, wait... That's dragons.
tsuyoshikentsu 12-14-05, 03:24 PM	Still, be wary of mages, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. No, wait... That's dragons. I think there's one... "Do not meedle in the affairs of wizards, for thou art flammable, and conduct electricity."
imneuromancer 12-14-05, 04:16 PM	I would say just get rid of 9th level (and epic) spells, period. They just simply don't exist, anywhere. 9th-level spells like Disjunction, Time Stop, Wish, Miracle, Shapechange, etc. are where things start to really break down. 8th level is bad, but not half as bad as 9th for pure phsics-reducers. Also, get rid of Polymorph in any form (Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Wildshape, etc.) Given that, your fighters and rogues are still going to be less optimal than wizards and clerics, but at least they will have a fighting chance (no pun intended)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-14-05, 04:37 PM	No way... don't get rid of 9th level spells. They're the bread and butter of a caster when they get to high levels. All you need is specifically tailored encounters to keep things inperspective. 9th level spells will never work in an AMF, so this gives the rogue/fighter/barbarian a chance to shine. Besides, 20th level casters have at most 6-8 ninth level spells. In an endurance game they will run out quick.
AviLazar 12-14-05, 04:47 PM	Nerf infinite loops (cheater of mystara, pun-pun, etc) Get rid of disjunction. If a spellcaster in your group says why, tell him because you have it to- and your items are more easily replaced. Nerf Time Stop to 2 rounds...trust me, thati s good enough Shapechange to 10 minutes/level. How fair is it the fighter is not only (normally) outshined by the wizard, but now the wizard walks around as a pitfiend and can outmelee the fighter --- all day long! Cheapen spell resistance items (SR 20 belt is way too expensive and offers paltry defense)...a 17 wizard breaks SR on a roll of 3 - assuming he doesn't have greater spell penetration. Encourage your fighter types to take templates (i.e. celestial, fiendish, pseudonatural). this will help build their SR to a good amount. Allow your fighter types to have one magical device at half price.
NineInchNall 12-14-05, 06:54 PM	Shapechange to 10 minutes/level. How fair is it the fighter is not only (normally) outshined by the wizard, but now the wizard walks around as a pitfiend and can outmelee the fighter --- all day long! Um, it is 10/level by default. Cheapen spell resistance items (SR 20 belt is way too expensive and offers paltry defense)...a 17 wizard breaks SR on a roll of 3 - assuming he doesn't have greater spell penetration. True, but I always thought that the purpose of the SR items was dealing with things with low caster levels, not high.
NineInchNall 12-14-05, 07:00 PM	No way... don't get rid of 9th level spells. They're the bread and butter of a caster when they get to high levels. All you need is specifically tailored encounters to keep things inperspective. 9th level spells will never work in an AMF, so this gives the rogue/fighter/barbarian a chance to shine. Besides, 20th level casters have at most 6-8 ninth level spells. In an endurance game they will run out quick. Preach on, brother Tle... Tleileshusal... Thexylopho... Damn it! Preach on, Brother TG!
AviLazar 12-14-05, 07:28 PM	Um, it is 10/level by default. True, but I always thought that the purpose of the SR items was dealing with things with low caster levels, not high. My bad, then make it 1/level. I know we downgraded at one point or another by time (in the game I play). 10/level is still a lot of time By the time you can afford such an item you will be squashing anything that low of a level. I mean level 10 character has a 50% chance of bypassing it...and at it's current price i can't see anyone under level 15-17 buying it. I would change it's SR to a per level attribute. 2/character level, capped at 30. Which gives a level 15 spellcaster a 25% chance of busting through it....a level 20 has a 50%
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-14-05, 07:34 PM	Preach on, brother Tle... Tleileshusal... Thexylopho... Damn it! Preach on, Brother TG! :heehee :rofl: Don't you just love overly complicated names filled with obscure references? To this date only one person has ever figured it out: Llochlyn. Tleilaxu_ghola refers to a clone made by the Bene Tleilax in the second Dune trilogy, the most famous of which was Duncan Idaho.
Hesparex 12-14-05, 08:01 PM	Lol truly the real villians of the Dune series ..... well the face dancers moreso than the ghola Lol really golems arent a problem for mages after 13th lvl. ruthlessly using spot and listen checks on players usually drives home a point
Iaimeki 01-08-06, 04:22 PM	In a campaign anticipating the possibility of reaching high levels, we banned some overly powerful caster PrCs (incantatrix and dweomerkeeper, among others), nerfed mage's disjunction and gate by increasing their casting time to one hour and disallowing the use of gate as a standard summoning spell, nerfing the holy word-class spells to an effects chart fixed to HD (so once you're above a certain level, it doesn't do anything), and banning antimagic field, shapechange, and timestop. (Antimagic field, in particular, is wildly imbalancing and not necessarily in the ways one might expect: a caster with a shaped AMF, either from archmage or Extraordinary Spell Aim, can destroy a combat character in melee. Once everything and its sister has shaped AMFs, though, hybridized fighter/casters, whether clerics or arcane warriors, just tend to own.)
PhaedrusXY 01-08-06, 05:09 PM	My house rules are mainly geared at powering up the melee characters a bit, and toning down the casters a bit. You can find them in my sig.
RadicalTaoist 01-09-06, 02:03 PM	A few mistakes I see: TG, buddy, you said that oozes were anti-caster monsters good for helping Fighters shine. Oopsie-Daisy. Fighters do NOT do well against oozes, and the best way to cook them is through blasting. Cue the Warmage. Don't ban disjunction. The most problematic part is the permanent item shutdown; ban that or just don't use it against your players. You need a way to kill antimagic, because without their magic items, fighters are only slightly less screwed against monsters than the casters are. Really. You don't want to fight that dragon without magic items. Careful about banning shapechanging. The melee types need their polymorph to do their job. So that leaves them in thrall to the casters, yes, I'm aware of that. I suggest nerfing everything to the Alter Self mechanics - if they don't gain the ability scores with the form, they're significantly nerfed while the melee types with high ability scores are still good. Shapechange is unforgivable. Nerf like hell or ban. Has anyone mentioned Gate or the Planar Bindings?
aod318 01-09-06, 03:19 PM	I don’t really see the point in modifying all these rules. Once you start, you will never be able to stop. Saw a great campaign die this way. One good piece of advice I see is controlling the battlefield. Unless you have a whole party dedicated to stealth, the DM has complete say over where things happen. And who cares what the party does, cause and effect is part of the game. Unless you are running a total hack and slash type game, it’s not what the party has, it’s how they use it. A fireball with 5 metamagic on it too much? Have the bad guy surrounded by charmed children. Sure, blow away the kids and the bad guy, but good luck in getting any further help and I don’t see where this whole melee vs. spell damage debate is coming from. I’ve seen a 30th level paladin type deal unimaginable damage. And just try and stop a 30th level monk. And don’t forget, bad guys can get raised too.