Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeraph 11-29-04, 02:50 PM	The questions is: How does the following 3 abbilties work together when making a charge??? Cause im not the best rule lawyer, and ive seen several builds with them, but I would very much like the 3 explained to me. Being danish often makes it an accomplishment to understand some of the rules. And im starting a character soon that will be going for this great molden cheez build. I tried posting the exact same question on the Skills and Feat forum and got no response. Ive gotten great response In the Optimization Forum before so im trying it again even though this might not be the best place. Banzai Charge is the 2nd level Ronin Prcs abbility. Combat Brute and Shocktrooper is a feat from Complete Warrior. Lets say a 6th Fighter/2nd Ronin with all the atop abbilities makes a charge and tries to get the greatest damage output... how much will his AC suffer? How much will the Attack Bonus suffer? And how much extra damage will there be recieved? Whats the difference between wielding a weapon twohanded weapon and onehanded? What happes the round after? I cant seem to get all this together, please help, o mighty minmaxers! Help an apprentice cheeze abuser. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Largegnome 11-29-04, 03:07 PM	Assuming he can have all of the abilities by level you could charge and take advantage of both Shock Trooper and Banzai charge. Assuming you're power attacking with a THW, you could trade (-8 AC) (Heedless charge) + (-8 AC) (Banzai charge) for +16 (PA two handed) + 8 (Banzai charge) damage. Combat brute comes into play the round after you've charged, and, if you find a way to charge again, you'd be able to trade up to 16 AC (again) for +32 damage(Combat Brute only affects the bonus damage from PA). If you're using a one handed weapon, you're taking a -16 penalty to AC, and +16 total damage the first round. The second round, assuming you can charge again, the penalty to AC remains the same, and you gain +20 damage instead of +16 damage. If you cannot charge during the second round, you can't combine the three abilities. Only Momentum swing works: in that case, you take the penalty to your Attack Bonus as per PA feat and your AC is unchanged. So, if you full attack the second round, you could take a -8 penalty on your attack roll and add +12 damage if you're wielding a one handed weapon, or +16 if you're wielding a two handed weapon. Hope it helped.
Xeraph 11-29-04, 03:26 PM	What about the original charging penalty/bonus? Banzai Charge states that you keep them? So the 2 handed/chrage/power attack actually should be: - 8 AC (headless charge) - 8 AC (banzai charge) - 2 AC (original penalty) to a total of -18 AC. And damage should be: +16 damage (power attack two handed) + 8 damage (banzai charge) to a grand total of +24 damage. And attack bonus should be: +2 (charge action) Is this correct?
Largegnome 11-29-04, 04:05 PM	What about the original charging penalty/bonus? Banzai Charge states that you keep them? Yes, I only took in account the modifiers coming from the feats/abilities. So the 2 handed/chrage/power attack actually should be: - 8 AC (headless charge) - 8 AC (banzai charge) - 2 AC (original penalty) to a total of -18 AC. Again, correct, considering the charge modifiers. And damage should be: +16 damage (power attack two handed) + 8 damage (banzai charge) to a grand total of +24 damage. And attack bonus should be: +2 (charge action) Is this correct? Yes :)
Xeraph 11-30-04, 11:51 AM	Alright im with you this far... Then the round after using Combat Brute's Momentrum Swing... First Round: Charge and Power Attack for a penalty of - 8 to attack rolls. (But we didnt really take any penalties to attack bonus right? See below) Second round case 1: We had a panalty of -8 last round, so we recieve a +12 bonus to damage this round or +24 if using a twohanded weapon, right? And we could actually power attack aswell, for every point of bab and recieve a neet (16+24) +40 to damage all in all? Second round case 2: We had no panalty to ATTACK so we get no buns and combat brute is a waste of time?
Xeraph 11-30-04, 11:54 AM	just read it one more time... Second round case 3: This round we choose to power attack for a penalty of -8 to attacks and therefor gains a nice +12 bonus to damge... really nice compared to the normal +8. Or when wielding in two hands a nice +24 to damage.???
Largegnome 11-30-04, 01:18 PM	Alright im with you this far... Then the round after using Combat Brute's Momentrum Swing... First Round: Charge and Power Attack for a penalty of - 8 to attack rolls. (But we didnt really take any penalties to attack bonus right? See below) Right. Second round case 1: We had a panalty of -8 last round, so we recieve a +12 bonus to damage this round or +24 if using a twohanded weapon, right? And we could actually power attack aswell, for every point of bab and recieve a neet (16+24) +40 to damage all in all? Nope. The penalty you took during the first round does not matter here. The feat only requires that you charged during the previous round. If you did, power attack as normal during the second round, effectively trading attack bonus for Damage bonus as explained in the feat description. What you did during the first round does not affect you, as long as you charged. If you can charge again during the second round, though, you can again trade AC for damage, this time dealing +1,5 x (Penalty to AC+ Penalty to attack) if you're wielding a one handed weapon, or + 3 X (Penalty to AC + Penalty to attack) if you're using a THW. I'm only considering Momentum Swing and Heedless Charge here. If you add Banzai Charge, you can gain a bonus to your damage that can be as high as: 1,5 x [Penalty to AC + Penalty to attack](up to 8, in this case) +[Penalty to AC] (from Banzai Charge and, again, up to 8) For a one handed weapon, or 3 x [Penalty to AC + Penalty to attack]+[Penalty to AC] When fighting with a THW. This only applies if you can charge on your second round Second round case 2: We had no panalty to ATTACK so we get no buns and combat brute is a waste of time? Again, what you did during the first round doesn't matter here, as long as you charged. The feat only states that, during the second round, you have to power attack and take at least a 5 point penalty to make momentum swing work. If you do not use power attack during the second round, Momentum Swing gives you no benefit. Second round case 3: This round we choose to power attack for a penalty of -8 to attacks and therefor gains a nice +12 bonus to damge... really nice compared to the normal +8. Or when wielding in two hands a nice +24 to damage.??? As long as you charged during the first round of combat, yes, that's how it works. ;)
Xeraph 11-30-04, 01:39 PM	Ok great i think i get it... lets see. Wielding in two hands. First Round: Charge + Power Attack -16 AC, +24 Damage and +2 Attack. Second Round: Charge + Power Attack -16 AC +32 (Banzai +8 Damage, Power Attack +24) Damage and +2 Attack?
Largegnome 11-30-04, 04:29 PM	Ok great i think i get it... lets see. Wielding in two hands. First Round: Charge + Power Attack -16 AC, +24 Damage and +2 Attack. Second Round: Charge + Power Attack -16 AC +32 (Banzai +8 Damage, Power Attack +24) Damage and +2 Attack? Exactly :) Only, if you take in account charge modifiers, it would be -18 AC in both cases.
Xeraph 11-30-04, 04:35 PM	Oh yeah, i forgot, ofcourse both cases -18 AC... Thanks alot for the help oh great Large Gnome. :bow: :bow: :bow:
shadow mage 12-07-04, 11:20 PM	Two Questions. First, how can you charge on round two? Second, while you can only make one attack on a charge attack (to my understanding), does the bonus damage on Momentum Swing apply to EACH attack or only the first or what? If it applies to each, using your example, you make two attacks (+8/+3 bab afterall) at -3 to attack (+2 charge, -5 PA) then for each attack you're looking at +15 damage per hit, two hits adding to +30 damage plus your strength modifier. Is this correct? If so then this can become damn lethal at higher levels...
UMiskatonic 12-08-04, 06:37 AM	To charge again, your opponent has to move back, or something needs to move you further 10 ft away from your enemy. There are lots of ways that this could happen. For added fun, you guys should add in Exotic Weapon Master and the Uncanny blow ability. It allows x2 Str bonus with an exotic weapon.
Otto the Bugbear 12-08-04, 07:27 AM	IIRC, the feat (combat brute) doesn't specifically say you need to attack the same foe in the second round. I've seen in play the "pinball-of-death" character. Charging a different opponent every combat round. Sometimes it worked out great, other times not so much. Just something to think about. Cheers Otto :)
Voldenuit 12-08-04, 07:27 AM	How bout adding in some Psychic Warrior with Psionic Lion's Charge (XPH) and some Battlejump goodness (Unapproachable East)? Full attack at the end of a charge. Count as charging if you drop from 10' or more onto your enemy, and deal double damage. Hell, let's add in Deep Impact (resolve your attack as a touch attack) and Expansion (Huge Size = 30' reach with a Huge Spiked Chain dealing 3d6 damage). Hold your chain in all 4 arms to get a 2.5x Str Bonus, and by extrapolation, a whopping +4 PA damage/BAB spent. That means you can probably hit your enemy on the first charge from 30' away, giving you plenty of space to charge again on the second round (assuming the enemy is still alive, and not smart enough to run the hell away). Or better yet, use a Thri-Kreen Psychic Warrior with Battlejump and a Ring of Jumping - you'll make the DC 72 check easily with your boosted Strength. So you can "Death From Above" every round. Take Karmic Strike so that he doesn't even dare AoO you, and Vampiric Blade so you can heal any damage anyway.