Barb/Bear Warrior [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barb/Bear Warrior [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Brol_The_Mighty
07-28-06, 08:39 AM Alright. In the current campaign I'm in, I was planning on playing a Barb/FB using a spiked chain. Well, after hearing about (OMG you're freaking killing EVERYTHING) all the time, I decided to switch to doing a Barb/Bear Warrior/X Because they saw that a Spiked Chain, combined with the FB's Uber Power Attack, and Supreme Cleave, I'd clear 20' radius circles of death (am a Large, Half-Ogre) Anyways, I'm looking for help on the build. I'm not looking for ultimate damage, I'm looking for being able to soak it up. We houseruled that Trap Sense for a Barb is stupid, so instead they get a Bonus Feat at those lvls. This is what I have:

Barb6/Fighter1/BearWarrior10/Warshaper3

or

Barb6/Fighter1/BearWarrior10/Nature's Warrior 3

of the two, I'm not sure which to take. NW would increase my Natural Armor, but Warshaper just freakin ROCKS. As for feats, beyond the prereq's, I'm kinda lost about good ones to take, that help my survivability (besides Imp. Toughness.)
Reiner
07-28-06, 10:16 AM First and foremost, you really don't want to take more than (5? AFB) levels of Bear Warrior. The dire bear form at level 10 only adds +4 strength over the bear form granted at level 5. Those last 5 levels are mostly empty and better used for other things. Warshaper is generally ok for a bear warrior, since you only get the benefits when you rage. And if you want to use the natural weapon size increase it means you have to use a standard action.

I'm not sure if Bear Warrior lets you qualify for Nature's Warrior, since i'm AFB. But bear warrior's ability is polymorph based, and Nature's Warrior requires wildshape right? If BW does let you qualify for Nature's Warrior it isn't a bad class, but again the benefits only come into play when you rage.

Either look to grab a weapon with the mouthpick ability(LoM in the beholder section) or take Improved Natural attack(claws). I'm also a big fan of being a dwarf and taking 2 levels in Deepwarden for con to ac before BW.

Either way, think about the fact that in bear form you only get 3 natural attacks, so debate the use of a mouthpick weapon if your DM will let you. Also figure out how your DM rules items and polymorph/wildshape and see if/how some wildshape clasps can help, so that you don't loose all of your items when you rage.
Zemyla
07-28-06, 10:59 AM And if you want to use the natural weapon size increase it means you have to use a standard action.

It's a move action.
Reiner
07-28-06, 11:18 AM Ahh, sorry. Still, I'd rather not be wasting my move action (or two if you want enlarged bite) on my first turn of combat. Mages and rogues go squish when that happens. But then again, maybe thats just my personal experience.
Pinky's brain
07-28-06, 01:16 PM Bearwarrior has a couple of problems, items, damage, armor.

Items : in theory any item except for armor which a bear could wear would resize with polymorph, but make sure your DM agrees.

Damage : natural weapons don't do real damage.

Armor : you don't get to wear any in bear form, wild/beasthide armor only works for wildshapers.
Brol_The_Mighty
07-28-06, 03:34 PM since when did natural weapons do subdual?
Reiner
07-28-06, 04:03 PM Not sure what he meant by Natural Weapons not doing real damage. They'll do fairly decent damage with the high strength from Bearshape. The problem is that you won't be getting iterative attacks. In bear form you only get 3 attacks, 2 claws and a bite. Claws at full bab and 1x str, bite at Bab-5 and .5xstr. Thats why people often suggest a mouthpick weapon, so you can get Iterative attacks.
Brol_The_Mighty
07-28-06, 04:09 PM With Warshaper couldn't u grow extra natural attacks? Also, wouldn't Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack help with the whole attack sequence?
Reis
07-28-06, 04:39 PM With Warshaper couldn't u grow extra natural attacks? Also, wouldn't Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack help with the whole attack sequence?

If I'm a bear warrior, I normally have 3 natural attacks, a bite (primary attack) at full BAB and 2 claws (secondary attacks) that are at -5 BAB, yes? If I take the multiattack feat, it reduces the penalty for the secondary attacks to -2.

This is where I don't really understand how things work. So with the above bear warrior, I can normally only make 3 attacks per round. If I take levels of Warshaper, what's to stop me from growing 10 tentacle rakes, 2 horns (gore), a tail (tail slap), and 2 additional claws and then make 1 primary bite attack and 17 secondary natural attacks per round? Is this legal? it seems silly.
Reiner
07-28-06, 06:25 PM Multiattack/improved multiattack would help, but since you only have one attack at -5, i think it is a waste of feats.

If I'm a bear warrior, I normally have 3 natural attacks, a bite (primary attack) at full BAB and 2 claws (secondary attacks) that are at -5 BAB, yes? If I take the multiattack feat, it reduces the penalty for the secondary attacks to -2.

This is where I don't really understand how things work. So with the above bear warrior, I can normally only make 3 attacks per round. If I take levels of Warshaper, what's to stop me from growing 10 tentacle rakes, 2 horns (gore), a tail (tail slap), and 2 additional claws and then make 1 primary bite attack and 17 secondary natural attacks per round? Is this legal? it seems silly.

Actually, no. Bear's primary attacks are their claws with a secondary bite. There have been arguments about how Warshaper works, but the best argument against having 10000 tentacles is found in the second paragraph under Morphic Weapons:

...
If the Warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.

Basically this means that if you grow one tentacle, the next time you go to grow a second tentacle, you can't, but instead enhance the one you already have. I suppose that does mean you have have a tail/sting/wing/tentacle/whatever, but expect the DM to smack you.

Also, the real reason why Morphic Weapon is pretty useless to a Bear Warrior is the time factor. You have a limited amount of time, in rounds, that you can rage, and even if i could i'd rather not waste 5 turns of my precious rage growing 10 tentacles. Your party is either going to be badly mangled/dead or already won by the time you're finished growing youself.

The rest of Warshaper is ok for the +4str/con, immune to crits, and reach. Just makes your superbear rage more powerful.

Unfortunately Brol, Bear Warrior doesn't qualify you for Nature's Warrior since NW requires wildshape (i checked now that i'm with my precious books :D ) You can always ask for DM intervention. I've always wanted to try a bear warrior and would probably try something like this:

Dwarf Ranger3/Barb2/Deepwarden2/Bear warrior5/Warshaper4/Barb3-6
add in Reckless rage from Races of Stone and you're looking at:
+2 will save
+22str, +2dex, +14con
and a net of +8ac (+7 from con, +5 natural from bear, -2 rage, -2 reckless rage)
whenever you rage. Take Extra rage/extend rage with some of your bonus feats from your houseruled Barb. I'd consider that a fun character to play around with :)
Brol_The_Mighty
07-28-06, 10:20 PM That actually does sound like a good combination. I've got a pretty high Str as it is, so add in that +22 and it rocks.

Edit: Okay, so other than Improved Natural Attack(Claw) what other feats would be good besides Extra/Extend Rage?
Reiner
07-29-06, 01:30 AM Actually, now that i think about it, Extend Rage isn't really a good choice, because you're already getting an extra 7 rounds of rage from your increased con score, plus three plus whatever your original con modifier is, so you're going to be raging long enough to finish most combats. Extra Rage is probably a very good choice though. Might want to look into shock trooper for some powerful bear charges, but i really can't think of much else now.
Brol_The_Mighty
07-29-06, 12:59 PM Agreed about Extend Rage, its not worth it. Even if you take a round to grow more natural attacks, or whatever, you've still got PLENTY of time with that high of a Con score. I'm not really worried about taking a round though anyways, because I'm the main tank for the party, they're mostly support char's like a Rogue, a Wiz, etc. They can take care of themselves as in staying alive, but its mostly up to me to take stuff out.
Hanniball
07-29-06, 05:18 PM Consider adding in Horizon Walker 1 for the Desert Terrain's Immunity to Fatigue. That way, when your rage ends, you can continue to lay the beat down and charge or run if neccessary.

Fairly Basic:

Human
Bar 5/Ftr 4/HW 1/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 5

With Specialization and Improved Natural Attack with your Claws and/or Bite.

Ahh, sorry. Still, I'd rather not be wasting my move action (or two if you want enlarged bite) on my first turn of combat.

Spending the first round of combat raging, shifting into bear form, growing a 15ft reach tentacle, and moving into position to protect the squishy party members is NOT a waste of a turn. Round 2 can then be spent full attacking with Claw, claw, bite, tentacle or performing a charging Leap Attack-grapple (depending on feat selection of course)

Multiattack/improved multiattack would help, but since you only have one attack at -5, i think it is a waste of feats.

Multiattack increases in usefullness as your Warshaper natural attacks increase in number. If you find yourself having a few rounds to spend prepping, I'd say it's worth it.

Either way...just my 2 cp
Auldar
07-30-06, 09:17 PM I don't know why people read the Morphic Weapons ability to allow you to grow multiple weapons.

It says you could grow a claw OR horns.. not a claw THEN horns, or claw AND horns.

It then goes on to say you can *change* morphic weapons at will, meaning that if you decided that rather than having a piercing horn attack, for purposes of penetrating DR, you may prefer a bludgeoning slam attack and thus can change your weapon.

I like to power-game as much as the next guy, but I just don't see how you can read Morphic weapons to allow more than 1 extra weapon. It doesn't specifically say you can't grow more than 1 weapon, but it doesn't specifically say you can either, and that's usually the rule of thumb.

If you take it to the extreme with your interpretation, any long duration Polymorph or Wild Shape could enter the form at the start of the day, spend a few minutes worth of move actions to grow every natural attack you can think of (it's got to be in the 20-30+ range), and THEN enlarge them so they're all treated as 1 catagory higher than they are.
Brol_The_Mighty
07-30-06, 09:51 PM Actually it says:

Morphic Weapons: As a move action, a warshaper CAN GROW NATURAL WEAPONS such as claws or fangs.....

Bold Underline for my emphasis. It doesn't say, can grow A natural weapon, it says can grow Natural Weapons

notice the plural usage.
Auldar
07-30-06, 10:01 PM Actually it says:

Morphic Weapons: As a move action, a warshaper CAN GROW NATURAL WEAPONS such as claws or fangs.....

Bold Underline for my emphasis. It doesn't say, can grow A natural weapon, it says can grow Natural Weapons

notice the plural usage.

Notice the "or" in that sentance too? Not "and", not "then".

Look I don't want to get into an argument - whatever your DM is happy with is all good and well.

Just have a think about my last paragraph and tell me that's the intended use? I don't even see it as RAW.
Brol_The_Mighty
07-30-06, 10:03 PM Actually that last paragraph was generally agreed upon as RAW not too terribly long agon, on these very boards. I'll see if I can dig up the thread somewhere...
Pinky's brain
07-30-06, 10:08 PM Morphic Weapons: As a move action, a warshaper CAN GROW NATURAL WEAPONS such as claws or fangs.....Nice selective quoting there ... we both know how the sentence ends, right?
Auldar
07-30-06, 10:10 PM Actually that last paragraph was generally agreed upon as RAW not too terribly long agon, on these very boards. I'll see if I can dig up the thread somewhere...

Fair enough, I'll happily read it, but it would be game breaking RAW for any druid.

By the way, your argument about plurals - it does say "claws", and "fangs" - both are a plural, but are still a single weapon. The rest of that sentance also says "allowing a natural attack.

Look, I'm a player, and not a DM (I have DMed though and wouldn't allow your interpretation myself), and as a player I'm actually working on a very similar build, but one using the Primeval instead of Bear Warrior - my chosen form is a Dire Ape so I can continue to use a weapon without the Opposable enchant or Gloves of Man.

It's here if you'd like to check it out:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669400

I also use Warshaper, but I don't expect to be able to make more than 1 natural weapon - in my case I'll add a pair of horns for a gore attack rather than increase my bite damage catagory since even half my str bonus will be much more than the increase in damage to the bite.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brol_The_Mighty 07-28-06, 08:39 AM	Alright. In the current campaign I'm in, I was planning on playing a Barb/FB using a spiked chain. Well, after hearing about (OMG you're freaking killing EVERYTHING) all the time, I decided to switch to doing a Barb/Bear Warrior/X Because they saw that a Spiked Chain, combined with the FB's Uber Power Attack, and Supreme Cleave, I'd clear 20' radius circles of death (am a Large, Half-Ogre) Anyways, I'm looking for help on the build. I'm not looking for ultimate damage, I'm looking for being able to soak it up. We houseruled that Trap Sense for a Barb is stupid, so instead they get a Bonus Feat at those lvls. This is what I have: Barb6/Fighter1/BearWarrior10/Warshaper3 or Barb6/Fighter1/BearWarrior10/Nature's Warrior 3 of the two, I'm not sure which to take. NW would increase my Natural Armor, but Warshaper just freakin ROCKS. As for feats, beyond the prereq's, I'm kinda lost about good ones to take, that help my survivability (besides Imp. Toughness.)
Reiner 07-28-06, 10:16 AM	First and foremost, you really don't want to take more than (5? AFB) levels of Bear Warrior. The dire bear form at level 10 only adds +4 strength over the bear form granted at level 5. Those last 5 levels are mostly empty and better used for other things. Warshaper is generally ok for a bear warrior, since you only get the benefits when you rage. And if you want to use the natural weapon size increase it means you have to use a standard action. I'm not sure if Bear Warrior lets you qualify for Nature's Warrior, since i'm AFB. But bear warrior's ability is polymorph based, and Nature's Warrior requires wildshape right? If BW does let you qualify for Nature's Warrior it isn't a bad class, but again the benefits only come into play when you rage. Either look to grab a weapon with the mouthpick ability(LoM in the beholder section) or take Improved Natural attack(claws). I'm also a big fan of being a dwarf and taking 2 levels in Deepwarden for con to ac before BW. Either way, think about the fact that in bear form you only get 3 natural attacks, so debate the use of a mouthpick weapon if your DM will let you. Also figure out how your DM rules items and polymorph/wildshape and see if/how some wildshape clasps can help, so that you don't loose all of your items when you rage.
Zemyla 07-28-06, 10:59 AM	And if you want to use the natural weapon size increase it means you have to use a standard action. It's a move action.
Reiner 07-28-06, 11:18 AM	Ahh, sorry. Still, I'd rather not be wasting my move action (or two if you want enlarged bite) on my first turn of combat. Mages and rogues go squish when that happens. But then again, maybe thats just my personal experience.
Pinky's brain 07-28-06, 01:16 PM	Bearwarrior has a couple of problems, items, damage, armor. Items : in theory any item except for armor which a bear could wear would resize with polymorph, but make sure your DM agrees. Damage : natural weapons don't do real damage. Armor : you don't get to wear any in bear form, wild/beasthide armor only works for wildshapers.
Brol_The_Mighty 07-28-06, 03:34 PM	since when did natural weapons do subdual?
Reiner 07-28-06, 04:03 PM	Not sure what he meant by Natural Weapons not doing real damage. They'll do fairly decent damage with the high strength from Bearshape. The problem is that you won't be getting iterative attacks. In bear form you only get 3 attacks, 2 claws and a bite. Claws at full bab and 1x str, bite at Bab-5 and .5xstr. Thats why people often suggest a mouthpick weapon, so you can get Iterative attacks.
Brol_The_Mighty 07-28-06, 04:09 PM	With Warshaper couldn't u grow extra natural attacks? Also, wouldn't Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack help with the whole attack sequence?
Reis 07-28-06, 04:39 PM	With Warshaper couldn't u grow extra natural attacks? Also, wouldn't Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack help with the whole attack sequence? If I'm a bear warrior, I normally have 3 natural attacks, a bite (primary attack) at full BAB and 2 claws (secondary attacks) that are at -5 BAB, yes? If I take the multiattack feat, it reduces the penalty for the secondary attacks to -2. This is where I don't really understand how things work. So with the above bear warrior, I can normally only make 3 attacks per round. If I take levels of Warshaper, what's to stop me from growing 10 tentacle rakes, 2 horns (gore), a tail (tail slap), and 2 additional claws and then make 1 primary bite attack and 17 secondary natural attacks per round? Is this legal? it seems silly.
Reiner 07-28-06, 06:25 PM	Multiattack/improved multiattack would help, but since you only have one attack at -5, i think it is a waste of feats. If I'm a bear warrior, I normally have 3 natural attacks, a bite (primary attack) at full BAB and 2 claws (secondary attacks) that are at -5 BAB, yes? If I take the multiattack feat, it reduces the penalty for the secondary attacks to -2. This is where I don't really understand how things work. So with the above bear warrior, I can normally only make 3 attacks per round. If I take levels of Warshaper, what's to stop me from growing 10 tentacle rakes, 2 horns (gore), a tail (tail slap), and 2 additional claws and then make 1 primary bite attack and 17 secondary natural attacks per round? Is this legal? it seems silly. Actually, no. Bear's primary attacks are their claws with a secondary bite. There have been arguments about how Warshaper works, but the best argument against having 10000 tentacles is found in the second paragraph under Morphic Weapons: ... If the Warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger. Basically this means that if you grow one tentacle, the next time you go to grow a second tentacle, you can't, but instead enhance the one you already have. I suppose that does mean you have have a tail/sting/wing/tentacle/whatever, but expect the DM to smack you. Also, the real reason why Morphic Weapon is pretty useless to a Bear Warrior is the time factor. You have a limited amount of time, in rounds, that you can rage, and even if i could i'd rather not waste 5 turns of my precious rage growing 10 tentacles. Your party is either going to be badly mangled/dead or already won by the time you're finished growing youself. The rest of Warshaper is ok for the +4str/con, immune to crits, and reach. Just makes your superbear rage more powerful. Unfortunately Brol, Bear Warrior doesn't qualify you for Nature's Warrior since NW requires wildshape (i checked now that i'm with my precious books :D ) You can always ask for DM intervention. I've always wanted to try a bear warrior and would probably try something like this: Dwarf Ranger3/Barb2/Deepwarden2/Bear warrior5/Warshaper4/Barb3-6 add in Reckless rage from Races of Stone and you're looking at: +2 will save +22str, +2dex, +14con and a net of +8ac (+7 from con, +5 natural from bear, -2 rage, -2 reckless rage) whenever you rage. Take Extra rage/extend rage with some of your bonus feats from your houseruled Barb. I'd consider that a fun character to play around with :)
Brol_The_Mighty 07-28-06, 10:20 PM	That actually does sound like a good combination. I've got a pretty high Str as it is, so add in that +22 and it rocks. Edit: Okay, so other than Improved Natural Attack(Claw) what other feats would be good besides Extra/Extend Rage?
Reiner 07-29-06, 01:30 AM	Actually, now that i think about it, Extend Rage isn't really a good choice, because you're already getting an extra 7 rounds of rage from your increased con score, plus three plus whatever your original con modifier is, so you're going to be raging long enough to finish most combats. Extra Rage is probably a very good choice though. Might want to look into shock trooper for some powerful bear charges, but i really can't think of much else now.
Brol_The_Mighty 07-29-06, 12:59 PM	Agreed about Extend Rage, its not worth it. Even if you take a round to grow more natural attacks, or whatever, you've still got PLENTY of time with that high of a Con score. I'm not really worried about taking a round though anyways, because I'm the main tank for the party, they're mostly support char's like a Rogue, a Wiz, etc. They can take care of themselves as in staying alive, but its mostly up to me to take stuff out.
Hanniball 07-29-06, 05:18 PM	Consider adding in Horizon Walker 1 for the Desert Terrain's Immunity to Fatigue. That way, when your rage ends, you can continue to lay the beat down and charge or run if neccessary. Fairly Basic: Human Bar 5/Ftr 4/HW 1/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 5 With Specialization and Improved Natural Attack with your Claws and/or Bite. Ahh, sorry. Still, I'd rather not be wasting my move action (or two if you want enlarged bite) on my first turn of combat. Spending the first round of combat raging, shifting into bear form, growing a 15ft reach tentacle, and moving into position to protect the squishy party members is NOT a waste of a turn. Round 2 can then be spent full attacking with Claw, claw, bite, tentacle or performing a charging Leap Attack-grapple (depending on feat selection of course) Multiattack/improved multiattack would help, but since you only have one attack at -5, i think it is a waste of feats. Multiattack increases in usefullness as your Warshaper natural attacks increase in number. If you find yourself having a few rounds to spend prepping, I'd say it's worth it. Either way...just my 2 cp
Auldar 07-30-06, 09:17 PM	I don't know why people read the Morphic Weapons ability to allow you to grow multiple weapons. It says you could grow a claw OR horns.. not a claw THEN horns, or claw AND horns. It then goes on to say you can change morphic weapons at will, meaning that if you decided that rather than having a piercing horn attack, for purposes of penetrating DR, you may prefer a bludgeoning slam attack and thus can change your weapon. I like to power-game as much as the next guy, but I just don't see how you can read Morphic weapons to allow more than 1 extra weapon. It doesn't specifically say you can't grow more than 1 weapon, but it doesn't specifically say you can either, and that's usually the rule of thumb. If you take it to the extreme with your interpretation, any long duration Polymorph or Wild Shape could enter the form at the start of the day, spend a few minutes worth of move actions to grow every natural attack you can think of (it's got to be in the 20-30+ range), and THEN enlarge them so they're all treated as 1 catagory higher than they are.
Brol_The_Mighty 07-30-06, 09:51 PM	Actually it says: Morphic Weapons: As a move action, a warshaper CAN GROW NATURAL WEAPONS such as claws or fangs..... Bold Underline for my emphasis. It doesn't say, can grow A natural weapon, it says can grow Natural Weapons notice the plural usage.
Auldar 07-30-06, 10:01 PM	Actually it says: Morphic Weapons: As a move action, a warshaper CAN GROW NATURAL WEAPONS such as claws or fangs..... Bold Underline for my emphasis. It doesn't say, can grow A natural weapon, it says can grow Natural Weapons notice the plural usage. Notice the "or" in that sentance too? Not "and", not "then". Look I don't want to get into an argument - whatever your DM is happy with is all good and well. Just have a think about my last paragraph and tell me that's the intended use? I don't even see it as RAW.
Brol_The_Mighty 07-30-06, 10:03 PM	Actually that last paragraph was generally agreed upon as RAW not too terribly long agon, on these very boards. I'll see if I can dig up the thread somewhere...
Pinky's brain 07-30-06, 10:08 PM	Morphic Weapons: As a move action, a warshaper CAN GROW NATURAL WEAPONS such as claws or fangs.....Nice selective quoting there ... we both know how the sentence ends, right?
Auldar 07-30-06, 10:10 PM	Actually that last paragraph was generally agreed upon as RAW not too terribly long agon, on these very boards. I'll see if I can dig up the thread somewhere... Fair enough, I'll happily read it, but it would be game breaking RAW for any druid. By the way, your argument about plurals - it does say "claws", and "fangs" - both are a plural, but are still a single weapon. The rest of that sentance also says "allowing a natural attack. Look, I'm a player, and not a DM (I have DMed though and wouldn't allow your interpretation myself), and as a player I'm actually working on a very similar build, but one using the Primeval instead of Bear Warrior - my chosen form is a Dire Ape so I can continue to use a weapon without the Opposable enchant or Gloves of Man. It's here if you'd like to check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669400 I also use Warshaper, but I don't expect to be able to make more than 1 natural weapon - in my case I'll add a pair of horns for a gore attack rather than increase my bite damage catagory since even half my str bonus will be much more than the increase in damage to the bite.