Barbarian / Druid - Pointless ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian / Druid - Pointless ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
eRaz0r
07-26-05, 09:00 PM I've had a concept in my head of a barbarian/druid type who goes into Lion of Talisid. Something with a great-spear or a great-club and the potential to wildshape and pounce.

The concept was something like
Barb or Ranger 1/ Druid 3/ XXX 2 / Lion of Talisid 10/YYY 4

Now I can try to get the unassigned levels (XXX) in Barbarian, Ranger or Scout (don't remember - does scout speed stack with Barbarians speed?), or I can add more Druid.
The last 4 levels (YYY) are also unassigned, but I'll either drop Druid levels in there or something that increases barb and druid together.

I'm not really sure whether this concept is any good or not. Every druid thread out there tells me that mixing other classes into a druid build (even PrC's) is generally sub-optimal.

Are there any Barbarian/Druid synergy classes out there? (preferably not alignment restricted). I've heard Nature's Warrior mentioned, but I don't know much about it (books not here).

Thoughts ?
NullAndVoid
07-26-05, 09:14 PM What about Barbarian 1/Druid 4/LoT 8/MoMF 7? This would allow you to wildshape into a variety of creatures (War Troll anyone?), gain their Ex, etc.

Warshaper is something else you could consider, although you don't get Druid spellcasting lvls.
eRaz0r
07-26-05, 09:25 PM Hmm - that could work... I guess it has to go

Barb 1/ Druid 4/ MoMF 1/ LoT8/MoMF +6 (=7), because of prereq's (LoT needs 9 ranks in 2 skills, so not possible till 6th level).

Then we have the feat requirements :
Master of Many Forms Alertness, Endurance;
Lion of Talisid : Favoured of the Companions;

That's doable with a Human without taking flaws.. which was the race I was going with.. Excellent!

Anyone else got any other ideas ? I'm going to sit down with the books in a few hours, and the more ideas the merrier !
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 12:54 AM Just realized that the previous build doesn't work : Need Wildshape for Master of Many Forms and for that you need Druid 5 (or LoT 3).

It's possible to do something like
Druid 3 / Barb 3 / LoT 3 / MoMF 1/ ... etc
But having a CL of 6 @ 9th level just seems sill when you get down to it. (The problem with so many optimized double++ threats is that they're only really any good at higher levels).

But the more I think about it, the more I see the wisdom of all the Druid20 threads - CL20 + Wildshape is often king.

Hmm.

Always so many choices.
ksbsnowowl
07-27-05, 01:43 AM How set are you on Lion of Talisad? Do you just want it mostly for pounce? Do you want the pounce mostly for while wildshaped, or would you prefer to use it with manufactured weapons too?

If you are mostly looking to get pounce for Wildshape forms, you could just be a Barb 1/Druid X who takes the Snow Tiger Berserker Feat from Unapproachable East. You get to make a full attack at the end of a charge, as long as you are wielding light weapon(s). Luckily, natural weapons are always light, so it synergizes quite well.
Tempest Stormwind
07-27-05, 01:53 AM How set are you on Lion of Talisad? Do you just want it mostly for pounce? Do you want the pounce mostly for while wildshaped, or would you prefer to use it with manufactured weapons too?

If you are mostly looking to get pounce for Wildshape forms, you could just be a Barb 1/Druid X who takes the Snow Tiger Berserker Feat from Unapproachable East. You get to make a full attack at the end of a charge, as long as you are wielding light weapon(s). Luckily, natural weapons are always light, so it synergizes quite well.

Or, any of the other Full Attack Chargers. See my sig.

A variant druid from Unearthed Arcana might be up your alley instead.
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 01:54 AM Hmm - certainly a possibility, although for some reason I thought I might want LoT for pounce with a big weapon.

I remember reading a pouncing thread a while back, and that sounded like a neat idea, but I've lost the link.

Unapproachable East is probably not on the cards though, since neither I nor my DM have it and I'm not sure if the character background can justify it. I'm more likely to get LoT into the mix than a feat that was from a specific background (The UnApproachable East).

Certainly more food for thought. (Do you have to be a Barbarian to qualify for the feat?)
ksbsnowowl
07-27-05, 09:31 AM (Do you have to be a Barbarian to qualify for the feat?)You must be able to Rage, however, that usually means a level of Barb...
Khazra Reborn
07-27-05, 11:01 AM The druidic avenger from UA loses animal companion in exchange for rage. Theres a druid spell in SS called lions charge which lets you full attack on charge, get some boots made if you ant it all the time
UMiskatonic
07-27-05, 02:22 PM Bear Warrior might work well here as well.

Better still would be to stack on a lycanthrope template. A were-tiger barbarian druid would be quite cool, in my humble opinion.
Kurama Youko
07-27-05, 03:30 PM According to Dragon 310 a Druid/Barbarian is not all that bad but this is before trying to go into a PrC, its more a stand along type of multi-class kind of thing. The Barbarian levels offer more hp, high bab, abilities to keep you in combat without as many draw backs (uncanndy dodge and improved uncanny dodge) trap sense and of course the might rage ability, while druid offers supplimental spellcasting, skills and a option for even greater combat forms. This issue of dragon also supplied the feats to make these kinds of builds work able like Spellcasting Rage which allowed you to cast while raging or use spell trigger devices while raging. Raging while a Gorilla just seems fun. Such babarians are seen as their tribes shaman i think they said in terms of role playing or something to that effect. Practiced Spellcaster and animal Friend help mitigate the lose of Druid lvs to Barbarian and honestly if you are even think of this idea then spellcasting offensively should be the furthest thing from your mind.
Kurama Youko
07-27-05, 03:33 PM You must be able to Rage, however, that usually means a level of Barb...

Or be a Anthromorphic Wolverine or ..... dun dun dun!! Were Wolverine!
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 03:36 PM I guess it comes down to what role this character wil primarily fill.

A Druid 20 gets some nice forms to choose from, and can expand them with certain feats. (Draconic Wildshape, for example). He can fill the role of primary summoner, decent tank in wildshape, good blaster with spells (CL 20, 9th level) and so on. Versatile and powerful.

A frontline warrior type may not see the need for full casting progression, and so Master of Many forms can provide a lot of other options (wide variety of forms etc). But when it comes to 20th level games Wildshape (even MoMF WS) is trumped by Shapechange, which is available, perversely to Clerics (with a domain) and Wiz/Sorcs but not Druids. Strange.

Anyway - I very much doubt the game this character will be partaking in will ever reach 20th level, so the character has to be viable from 1-12th primarily, and anything after that is almost an afterthought.

What role is this character going to fill ? Extra tanking, wilderness survival/guide and backup healer in a jungle-oriented campaign. I envisage a bit of a Tarzan - wild but noble, and Cat-based rather than Ape-based, because I think that would be cool.

With that in mind, I think Lion of Talisid should definitely be the primary focus of the build - for "roleplaying" purposes :) (Shhh... don't tell anyone over on Character Development that we soemtimes care about that too!).

I need to play around with some of the other PrC's available, but MoMF is probably a very useful one in a tank build.

So I'm thinking
Barb 1/Druid 5/MoMF 7/LoT 7

The question is - how does it all stack ?

(And why don't I just drop the Barb level and go with Druid 5/MoMF8/Lot7, alternating the 2 prc's between good levels? Hmm.)
Borin
07-27-05, 03:46 PM How about a mounted druid with a lance? Bbn1/DrdX gives the Lance proficiency, 1 Rage, and the druid levels give a nice mount.
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 03:52 PM Cool idea - although I'm thinking the campaign setting will limit the mounts flexibility (jungles etc).

OTOH, this could go towards the Skylord PrC - imagine flying over the trees only to dive on the enemy ?
Gerdreg
07-27-05, 04:18 PM I have the perfect PrC for you. Take a look at the Primeval PrC from Frostburn. Note that unlike many of the other PrCs in FrB, it focuses on a "prehistoric" feel instead of an "arctic" one.

I am currently playing a Neanderthal Barbarian/ Druid/ Primeval whose Primeval form is the Dire Ape. A full BAB class is needed to get into it earliest (+8 BAB req) but the Druid class allows you to wildshape into the Primeval form, which gives you a much longer duration. A Dire Lion would fit perfectly for what you are trying to do as your base form must be 8 HD or less and Dire Lions are 8 HD.

I hope you like it as much as I do. As an aside, though powergaming wasn't my goal, this is by far one of the most powerful melee characters I have ever played. My Str in primeval form (with rage) is in the 40s, and with my claw/ claw/ bite/ rend - full attack action, my damage is very good.

[edit] I just read you are playing in a Jungle campaign. Ours recently kept us in a Jungle for a time, and I have to say the climb movement rate of the Dire Ape was very useful.
PonTelon
07-27-05, 04:22 PM So I'm thinking
Barb 1/Druid 5/MoMF 7/LoT 7

The question is - how does it all stack ?

I made a Druid/Barbarian in a Gestalt game, and I liked it a lot. You might want to go with the alternate Druid to give up animal companion(since it's going to be MAJORLY weak with this build) for Rage. You might also check out some of the alternate rages in UA. The one that gives bonus to AC is a nice one, if you plan on being a tank, especially since you will be having the lessened HP than a normal Barbarian. So:
Druid Avenger(I think that is the name of it)6/ MoMf 7/ LoT 7
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 04:26 PM Lets see : How does MoMF stack with Druid levels and Lion of Talisid levels ?

Lion of Talisid stacks with "effective druid levels" by adding your LoT Class Level -2 to your druid level to get your effective druid level (number of WS and size etc). That's easy.
So in the build above that is
Druid 5 + Lot 7-2 = 10.

Now, how does MoMF work ? IIRC (don't have the books in front of me), MoMF gives you 1 (extra?) WS per day per Class level. Does the Improved Wild Shape (ex) abilitiy *replace* or *expand* on your Druid capabilities ?

For example - If I were to take a Druid 20 (already with Elemental Wild Shape abilities) and add MoMF 2 to it, do I lose all those extra Druid WS abilities ? I would think not. I would simply add Improved Wild Shape (Humanoid, Giant) to my Druid's abilities (and 2 more WS's per day). Since I already have WS (Large) from my druid levels, the IWS:Large doesn't have any extra effect.

Does that make sense ?

So I think what the above build gets is :
Druid WS effective Level 10. (4/day, Large)
MoMF adds 7 levels to effective Druid level for HD purposes. It adds 7 more uses per day (now 11 per day), and expands the repertoire to include (Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, Fey, Bermin, aberration, plants) of sizes (tiny through to Huge)

Is that how it works ?

The bonuses I also get from LoT include an exalted animal companion, the scent ability, immunity to fear, Lions Pounce (full attack at end of charge, not limited to light weapons), and Lions Swiftness (inbuilt boots of haste)..

Now.. if I drop the Barbarian level completely, take the LoT down to 5th level and MoMF up to 10th, that gives me
Druid 5/MoMF 10/LoT 5.
(I could conceivably still take the Avenger druid variant for some fun early on, and get the Exalted companion from LOT later).

I lose the Lions Swiftness and 2 CL's (ouch) but gain the MoMF full swath of abilities including Gargantuan Dragon form and 2 more uses of Wildshape.

Is that about right ?
ksbsnowowl
07-27-05, 08:01 PM But when it comes to 20th level games Wildshape (even MoMF WS) is trumped by Shapechange, which is available, perversely to Clerics (with a domain) and Wiz/Sorcs but not Druids. Strange.
Oh really?From the 3.5 SRD:
Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
eRaz0r
07-27-05, 08:45 PM Oh - whoops. I guess I missed that : )

:0

I wonder how I got that idea? Hmm. I guess that's what happens when you rely on faulty memory.

Changes everything LOL

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eRaz0r 07-26-05, 09:00 PM	I've had a concept in my head of a barbarian/druid type who goes into Lion of Talisid. Something with a great-spear or a great-club and the potential to wildshape and pounce. The concept was something like Barb or Ranger 1/ Druid 3/ XXX 2 / Lion of Talisid 10/YYY 4 Now I can try to get the unassigned levels (XXX) in Barbarian, Ranger or Scout (don't remember - does scout speed stack with Barbarians speed?), or I can add more Druid. The last 4 levels (YYY) are also unassigned, but I'll either drop Druid levels in there or something that increases barb and druid together. I'm not really sure whether this concept is any good or not. Every druid thread out there tells me that mixing other classes into a druid build (even PrC's) is generally sub-optimal. Are there any Barbarian/Druid synergy classes out there? (preferably not alignment restricted). I've heard Nature's Warrior mentioned, but I don't know much about it (books not here). Thoughts ?
NullAndVoid 07-26-05, 09:14 PM	What about Barbarian 1/Druid 4/LoT 8/MoMF 7? This would allow you to wildshape into a variety of creatures (War Troll anyone?), gain their Ex, etc. Warshaper is something else you could consider, although you don't get Druid spellcasting lvls.
eRaz0r 07-26-05, 09:25 PM	Hmm - that could work... I guess it has to go Barb 1/ Druid 4/ MoMF 1/ LoT8/MoMF +6 (=7), because of prereq's (LoT needs 9 ranks in 2 skills, so not possible till 6th level). Then we have the feat requirements : Master of Many Forms Alertness, Endurance; Lion of Talisid : Favoured of the Companions; That's doable with a Human without taking flaws.. which was the race I was going with.. Excellent! Anyone else got any other ideas ? I'm going to sit down with the books in a few hours, and the more ideas the merrier !
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 12:54 AM	Just realized that the previous build doesn't work : Need Wildshape for Master of Many Forms and for that you need Druid 5 (or LoT 3). It's possible to do something like Druid 3 / Barb 3 / LoT 3 / MoMF 1/ ... etc But having a CL of 6 @ 9th level just seems sill when you get down to it. (The problem with so many optimized double++ threats is that they're only really any good at higher levels). But the more I think about it, the more I see the wisdom of all the Druid20 threads - CL20 + Wildshape is often king. Hmm. Always so many choices.
ksbsnowowl 07-27-05, 01:43 AM	How set are you on Lion of Talisad? Do you just want it mostly for pounce? Do you want the pounce mostly for while wildshaped, or would you prefer to use it with manufactured weapons too? If you are mostly looking to get pounce for Wildshape forms, you could just be a Barb 1/Druid X who takes the Snow Tiger Berserker Feat from Unapproachable East. You get to make a full attack at the end of a charge, as long as you are wielding light weapon(s). Luckily, natural weapons are always light, so it synergizes quite well.
Tempest Stormwind 07-27-05, 01:53 AM	How set are you on Lion of Talisad? Do you just want it mostly for pounce? Do you want the pounce mostly for while wildshaped, or would you prefer to use it with manufactured weapons too? If you are mostly looking to get pounce for Wildshape forms, you could just be a Barb 1/Druid X who takes the Snow Tiger Berserker Feat from Unapproachable East. You get to make a full attack at the end of a charge, as long as you are wielding light weapon(s). Luckily, natural weapons are always light, so it synergizes quite well. Or, any of the other Full Attack Chargers. See my sig. A variant druid from Unearthed Arcana might be up your alley instead.
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 01:54 AM	Hmm - certainly a possibility, although for some reason I thought I might want LoT for pounce with a big weapon. I remember reading a pouncing thread a while back, and that sounded like a neat idea, but I've lost the link. Unapproachable East is probably not on the cards though, since neither I nor my DM have it and I'm not sure if the character background can justify it. I'm more likely to get LoT into the mix than a feat that was from a specific background (The UnApproachable East). Certainly more food for thought. (Do you have to be a Barbarian to qualify for the feat?)
ksbsnowowl 07-27-05, 09:31 AM	(Do you have to be a Barbarian to qualify for the feat?)You must be able to Rage, however, that usually means a level of Barb...
Khazra Reborn 07-27-05, 11:01 AM	The druidic avenger from UA loses animal companion in exchange for rage. Theres a druid spell in SS called lions charge which lets you full attack on charge, get some boots made if you ant it all the time
UMiskatonic 07-27-05, 02:22 PM	Bear Warrior might work well here as well. Better still would be to stack on a lycanthrope template. A were-tiger barbarian druid would be quite cool, in my humble opinion.
Kurama Youko 07-27-05, 03:30 PM	According to Dragon 310 a Druid/Barbarian is not all that bad but this is before trying to go into a PrC, its more a stand along type of multi-class kind of thing. The Barbarian levels offer more hp, high bab, abilities to keep you in combat without as many draw backs (uncanndy dodge and improved uncanny dodge) trap sense and of course the might rage ability, while druid offers supplimental spellcasting, skills and a option for even greater combat forms. This issue of dragon also supplied the feats to make these kinds of builds work able like Spellcasting Rage which allowed you to cast while raging or use spell trigger devices while raging. Raging while a Gorilla just seems fun. Such babarians are seen as their tribes shaman i think they said in terms of role playing or something to that effect. Practiced Spellcaster and animal Friend help mitigate the lose of Druid lvs to Barbarian and honestly if you are even think of this idea then spellcasting offensively should be the furthest thing from your mind.
Kurama Youko 07-27-05, 03:33 PM	You must be able to Rage, however, that usually means a level of Barb... Or be a Anthromorphic Wolverine or ..... dun dun dun!! Were Wolverine!
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 03:36 PM	I guess it comes down to what role this character wil primarily fill. A Druid 20 gets some nice forms to choose from, and can expand them with certain feats. (Draconic Wildshape, for example). He can fill the role of primary summoner, decent tank in wildshape, good blaster with spells (CL 20, 9th level) and so on. Versatile and powerful. A frontline warrior type may not see the need for full casting progression, and so Master of Many forms can provide a lot of other options (wide variety of forms etc). But when it comes to 20th level games Wildshape (even MoMF WS) is trumped by Shapechange, which is available, perversely to Clerics (with a domain) and Wiz/Sorcs but not Druids. Strange. Anyway - I very much doubt the game this character will be partaking in will ever reach 20th level, so the character has to be viable from 1-12th primarily, and anything after that is almost an afterthought. What role is this character going to fill ? Extra tanking, wilderness survival/guide and backup healer in a jungle-oriented campaign. I envisage a bit of a Tarzan - wild but noble, and Cat-based rather than Ape-based, because I think that would be cool. With that in mind, I think Lion of Talisid should definitely be the primary focus of the build - for "roleplaying" purposes :) (Shhh... don't tell anyone over on Character Development that we soemtimes care about that too!). I need to play around with some of the other PrC's available, but MoMF is probably a very useful one in a tank build. So I'm thinking Barb 1/Druid 5/MoMF 7/LoT 7 The question is - how does it all stack ? (And why don't I just drop the Barb level and go with Druid 5/MoMF8/Lot7, alternating the 2 prc's between good levels? Hmm.)
Borin 07-27-05, 03:46 PM	How about a mounted druid with a lance? Bbn1/DrdX gives the Lance proficiency, 1 Rage, and the druid levels give a nice mount.
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 03:52 PM	Cool idea - although I'm thinking the campaign setting will limit the mounts flexibility (jungles etc). OTOH, this could go towards the Skylord PrC - imagine flying over the trees only to dive on the enemy ?
Gerdreg 07-27-05, 04:18 PM	I have the perfect PrC for you. Take a look at the Primeval PrC from Frostburn. Note that unlike many of the other PrCs in FrB, it focuses on a "prehistoric" feel instead of an "arctic" one. I am currently playing a Neanderthal Barbarian/ Druid/ Primeval whose Primeval form is the Dire Ape. A full BAB class is needed to get into it earliest (+8 BAB req) but the Druid class allows you to wildshape into the Primeval form, which gives you a much longer duration. A Dire Lion would fit perfectly for what you are trying to do as your base form must be 8 HD or less and Dire Lions are 8 HD. I hope you like it as much as I do. As an aside, though powergaming wasn't my goal, this is by far one of the most powerful melee characters I have ever played. My Str in primeval form (with rage) is in the 40s, and with my claw/ claw/ bite/ rend - full attack action, my damage is very good. [edit] I just read you are playing in a Jungle campaign. Ours recently kept us in a Jungle for a time, and I have to say the climb movement rate of the Dire Ape was very useful.
PonTelon 07-27-05, 04:22 PM	So I'm thinking Barb 1/Druid 5/MoMF 7/LoT 7 The question is - how does it all stack ? I made a Druid/Barbarian in a Gestalt game, and I liked it a lot. You might want to go with the alternate Druid to give up animal companion(since it's going to be MAJORLY weak with this build) for Rage. You might also check out some of the alternate rages in UA. The one that gives bonus to AC is a nice one, if you plan on being a tank, especially since you will be having the lessened HP than a normal Barbarian. So: Druid Avenger(I think that is the name of it)6/ MoMf 7/ LoT 7
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 04:26 PM	Lets see : How does MoMF stack with Druid levels and Lion of Talisid levels ? Lion of Talisid stacks with "effective druid levels" by adding your LoT Class Level -2 to your druid level to get your effective druid level (number of WS and size etc). That's easy. So in the build above that is Druid 5 + Lot 7-2 = 10. Now, how does MoMF work ? IIRC (don't have the books in front of me), MoMF gives you 1 (extra?) WS per day per Class level. Does the Improved Wild Shape (ex) abilitiy replace or expand on your Druid capabilities ? For example - If I were to take a Druid 20 (already with Elemental Wild Shape abilities) and add MoMF 2 to it, do I lose all those extra Druid WS abilities ? I would think not. I would simply add Improved Wild Shape (Humanoid, Giant) to my Druid's abilities (and 2 more WS's per day). Since I already have WS (Large) from my druid levels, the IWS:Large doesn't have any extra effect. Does that make sense ? So I think what the above build gets is : Druid WS effective Level 10. (4/day, Large) MoMF adds 7 levels to effective Druid level for HD purposes. It adds 7 more uses per day (now 11 per day), and expands the repertoire to include (Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, Fey, Bermin, aberration, plants) of sizes (tiny through to Huge) Is that how it works ? The bonuses I also get from LoT include an exalted animal companion, the scent ability, immunity to fear, Lions Pounce (full attack at end of charge, not limited to light weapons), and Lions Swiftness (inbuilt boots of haste).. Now.. if I drop the Barbarian level completely, take the LoT down to 5th level and MoMF up to 10th, that gives me Druid 5/MoMF 10/LoT 5. (I could conceivably still take the Avenger druid variant for some fun early on, and get the Exalted companion from LOT later). I lose the Lions Swiftness and 2 CL's (ouch) but gain the MoMF full swath of abilities including Gargantuan Dragon form and 2 more uses of Wildshape. Is that about right ?
ksbsnowowl 07-27-05, 08:01 PM	But when it comes to 20th level games Wildshape (even MoMF WS) is trumped by Shapechange, which is available, perversely to Clerics (with a domain) and Wiz/Sorcs but not Druids. Strange. Oh really?From the 3.5 SRD: Shapechange Transmutation Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D)
eRaz0r 07-27-05, 08:45 PM	Oh - whoops. I guess I missed that : ) :0 I wonder how I got that idea? Hmm. I guess that's what happens when you rely on faulty memory. Changes everything LOL