Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Trakx 06-06-05, 12:49 PM	I'm playing a Barbarian/Scout. What is a good ranged weapon to use? Right now, Shortspear is my top choice. I would go with a bow, but then don't I have a Strength bonus limit? Also, can you do sneak attacks with a greataxe?
rilem 06-06-05, 12:55 PM	You can do sneak attacks with any weapon (or spell) that requires an attack roll, assuming you qualify for sneak attacks to begin with. For a weapon, use a Mighty Bow, which does have a strength limit but is good anyway. If your strength mod is higher than the available Mighty Bow limits, javelins are superior to shortspears. Their range is better. Remember to pick up Brutal Throw and Quick Draw!
Trakx 06-06-05, 01:17 PM	You can do sneak attacks with any weapon (or spell) that requires an attack roll, assuming you qualify for sneak attacks to begin with. For a weapon, use a Mighty Bow, which does have a strength limit but is good anyway. If your strength mod is higher than the available Mighty Bow limits, javelins are superior to shortspears. Their range is better. Remember to pick up Brutal Throw and Quick Draw! While Javelins can be thrown farther, don't they do less damage? I would need a Mighty Bow that gives +4, but then my Strength bonus is lost if I use the bow while raged. If I have a bow that takes my Raged Strength bonus into account, then I can't use it unless I'm raged because I'll be too weak. :doh: What does Brutal Throw do?
rilem 06-06-05, 01:38 PM	While Javelins can be thrown farther, don't they do less damage? I would need a Mighty Bow that gives +4, but then my Strength bonus is lost if I use the bow while raged. If I have a bow that takes my Raged Strength bonus into account, then I can't use it unless I'm raged because I'll be too weak. :doh: What does Brutal Throw do? Brutal throw lets you add Str. mod to attack rolls for thrown weapons, instead of Dex. It's in CAdv. (figured you had that book with the scout, sorry). Shortspears do 1d6. (In 3.5, the halfspear has been renamed shortspear. The 3.0 shortspear is now just a spear, which does 1d8. But it weighs more than a javelin and is harder to store. Regardless, your damage is coming from strength; don't worry about an average of 1 hp).
Trakx 06-06-05, 01:51 PM	Brutal throw lets you add Str. mod to attack rolls for thrown weapons, instead of Dex. It's in CAdv. (figured you had that book with the scout, sorry). Shortspears do 1d6. (In 3.5, the halfspear has been renamed shortspear. The 3.0 shortspear is now just a spear, which does 1d8. But it weighs more than a javelin and is harder to store. Regardless, your damage is coming from strength; don't worry about an average of 1 hp). I do have Complete Adventurer, but not on me - and I've only had it a few days now. I had heard of Brutal Throw, but I wasn't sure which book it was in. Actually, I thought it was in Races of Stone, because of the Goliaths (was that was their race was called?) who have a prestige class of Hurlers (I'm not sure if this is the exact name of the class, but close). So, with Brutal Throw I will now use Strength as my modifier for Attack Rolls and Damage Bonus? If I understood right (I'm new to D&D), Attack Rolls would otherwise come from Dexterity. :thinks: And you recommend the javelin because it has greater range, is easier to store, and is lighter - concequently making it easier to carry multiple of. That sounds great, especially with my character concept. :) I was going to go with Human as my race, because of the bonus feat. Is there a better race you would recommend? (Again, thank you for your help)
Lilt 06-06-05, 01:59 PM	I'd consider Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer) which lets you use strength for attack rolls on thrown weapons. Hurling Charge (From the Miniatures Handbook) is another interesting feat gives you a free ranged attack on a charge action, giving you a second attack to add your skirmish to. Other Options: There is a bow in CD (bow of the wintermoon) which freely auto-adjusts for strength changes, but it's a relic thus you need a feat to use it. A +1 Morphing weapon can theoretically do the same thing but it takes a standard action to adjust (plus morphing is a really useful ability). Optimisation notes: Greater Manyshot from the XPH (and SRD) lets you get your skirmish damage on multiple attacks but requires the use of a bow. You can sneak-attack with virtually any weapon.
Khazra Reborn 06-06-05, 02:07 PM	im sure some DMs would allow a similar feat to greater manyshot for throwers, its not an unreasonable request. If you have the feat spare the spinning javlin exotic weapon from sword & fist 3.0 splat book has i think 50ft range which is pretty good for a thrown weapon.
Surreal 06-06-05, 02:15 PM	Does anyone remember what feat (and souce) lets you throw a weapon during you charge, and still let you do an attack at the end of it? I wonder if that stacks with pounce like abilities.
Khazra Reborn 06-06-05, 02:51 PM	Hurling charge, mentioned 2 posts before by Lilt is what you are looking for...you need to get yourself blind sight ;)
Baneslayer 06-06-05, 03:55 PM	Where is the Morphing property found? I was thinking about the problem of Barbarians with Bows and how to avoid carrying multiple bows. You would think that someone would come up with a Barbarian Compound Bow that allowed for adjusting Strength Ratings. Either as an exotic weapon (looks like a portable Bowflex, string up as many arms as needed to get to the proper Str rating) or as a simple magical weapon (+1 enhancement, base cost includes the Mighty Bow cost for the top Str usable with the bow).
cvazi 06-06-05, 04:10 PM	does brutal throw work with the sling? Sling Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a sling, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a sling with one hand. Loading a sling is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls. I usually end up doing enough damage from the enhancement bonus and strength that the average 2 points more I get from the long-bow doesns't matter that much.
Surreal 06-06-05, 04:39 PM	Hurling charge, mentioned 2 posts before by Lilt is what you are looking for...you need to get yourself blind sight ;) D'oh, this is what happens when I go for lunch between loading the page and actually posting; a whole bunch of posts sneak in before mine. I don't have the book with me at the moment, but does anyone know if you can use 'pounce' (let you make full attacks at the end of a charge) abilities if you use hurling charge?
Keenath 06-06-05, 05:03 PM	If range is an issue, a sling may be a good choice -- it has range nearly as good as a shortbow, and you get your full strength bonus even when raging. If you're not worried about very long ranges, thrown weapons are your friend. Javelins are your best pick there, because it's the same damage as a spear, but has slightly longer range. Keep in mind that a thrown weapon can only go five range incriments, though. In my experience, most combat happens within 100 feet anyway, so you probably won't need the super-range bows, especially with your high running speed.. You can't use Pounce to throw more than once in combination with Hurling Throw; HT allows one single throw attack after a charge, regardless of how many melee attacks you get.
Lilt 06-07-05, 05:48 AM	You can't use Pounce to throw more than once in combination with Hurling Throw; HT allows one single throw attack after a charge, regardless of how many melee attacks you get.I'm afraid to say that it's not even that good. In the feat description it says that if you may normally make multiple attacks on a charge, you may only make 1 attack in addition to the thrown weapopn attack. IE: using it effectively forefits the use of Pounce and similar abilities.
Khazra Reborn 06-07-05, 06:42 AM	Remember, if your going to invest in feats for ranged attacking, far shot doubles the range increment of thrown weapons but only does 1.5X range increment for bows...does a sling count as a thrown weapon for feats like that? A spinning javelin with the far shot feat & the far enhancement is 150ft range increment (stupid stacking rules, i thought it was going to be 300)
Iaimeki 06-07-05, 12:33 PM	Two things: 1) Because of the master thrower class and certain feats (Brutal Throw and Power Throw), I think that throwers now have the upper hand over archers when it comes to doing damage in typical combat circumstances (i.e., both sides aware of the other, ranges short because some characters are engaged in melee, etc.). This is doubly true for a barbarian, because you don't need to worry about bow mightyness to take advantage of higher Str during a rage, and because Brutal Throw means you use Str for your attack rolls as well. 2) Scouts work best with mounted combat or Greater Manyshot (which requires use of a bow). I don't know of any other ways to get full attacks with ranged weapons while also moving 10'/round. Unless you can become a mounted thrower, I'd suggest that you pick one "theme" to work with, either barbarian or scout, and choose your weapon accordingly.
glider007 06-07-05, 02:26 PM	By the way you can not make multiple attacks with a sling. If you read the description it requires a MOVE action to load which means you can not take advantage of high BAB to make multiple attacks, or use rapid shot.
brayabbitt 06-07-05, 05:42 PM	I would consider an Orc Shotput from Arms and Equipment. The range sucks and they are 15lbs ea but the damage is good. (1d10 I think)
Tony Vargas 06-07-05, 07:53 PM	As a barb/scout, you're probably not melee-shy, so thrown weapons (as have been pointed out for a number of reasons can be a good choice). You can draw a thrown weapon as part of a move, and, as a scout, you're probably moving a lot, so even the Quickdraw, usually indispensible to throwers, isn't a must-have. As a scout, you should be able to dictate encounter distances with good stealth/spot checks, so you can pick what seems best for your choice of weapons and combat style. With rage as an option, that'll probably often mean starting fairly close. Though, another option might be to go with a bow (non-rage-strength), and consistently start and long range and fire while backing away. This will encourage your enemies to devote time and resources to closing with you, and fixate on getting into melee. Once they have you 'trapped' melee, you Rage on them.
Trakx 06-08-05, 03:20 PM	As a barb/scout, you're probably not melee-shy, so thrown weapons (as have been pointed out for a number of reasons can be a good choice). You can draw a thrown weapon as part of a move, and, as a scout, you're probably moving a lot, so even the Quickdraw, usually indispensible to throwers, isn't a must-have. As a scout, you should be able to dictate encounter distances with good stealth/spot checks, so you can pick what seems best for your choice of weapons and combat style. With rage as an option, that'll probably often mean starting fairly close. Though, another option might be to go with a bow (non-rage-strength), and consistently start and long range and fire while backing away. This will encourage your enemies to devote time and resources to closing with you, and fixate on getting into melee. Once they have you 'trapped' melee, you Rage on them. I have to admit, that is a damn good strategy! However, the concept for my character is of a barbarian tribe who, after losing a great many battles to a long-time enemy barbarian tribe, have switched to guerrilla tactics. To work this out on his character sheet, I was going to make him a Barbarian/Rogue, but there were too many parts of Rogue that didn't fit the character concept - such as his knowledge of Disable Device or Disarm Trap, etc. For the most part, I just wanted the Sneak Attack. Then someone pointed out going to Scout - which, he explained, was like a "Rural Rogue". So, we're starting our campaign tomorrow and he's starting us all out as 2nd level. Originally, I was thinking of doing my scouting from the trees - taking up the feat: Brachiation. But, it was pointed out that while this campaign setting may be set in the wilderness, Brachiation is only effective in thick to medium forest terraigns... and there are better, more combat-effective feats that I should be looking at. I plan on concentrating on Scout, backing up my Barbarian instead with feats like Righteous Wrath, Extra Rage, Instant Rage, and Extend Rage. Since I'm relaying on stealth, the rage is more a combat-enhancement. I see him as sneaking around, and then BOOM - someone is suddenly dead. Look around, and there is no one to be seen. I think I'm going to go with the javelin as my ranged weapon, and greataxe as my standard melee. How does the backstory sound to everyone? Any feats I should be sure to pick up? With the backstory in mind, do the javelin and greataxe sound like suitable weapons?
Trakx 06-08-05, 03:24 PM	Remember, if your going to invest in feats for ranged attacking, far shot doubles the range increment of thrown weapons but only does 1.5X range increment for bows...does a sling count as a thrown weapon for feats like that? A spinning javelin with the far shot feat & the far enhancement is 150ft range increment (stupid stacking rules, i thought it was going to be 300) I'll have to look into the Spinning Javelin, but definately pick up the Far Shot feat at some point. Great suggestion, thanks!
Trakx 06-08-05, 03:28 PM	I would consider an Orc Shotput from Arms and Equipment. The range sucks and they are 15lbs ea but the damage is good. (1d10 I think) Do I need to be an orc to use this, or have exotic weapon profeciency?
Trakx 06-10-05, 05:52 PM	My DM says that Javelins are too big (to read: long) to carry more than one. Is this right? Can't you carry more than one at a time? I was envisioning keeping a pack of them on my back.
jaerad 06-10-05, 06:26 PM	I'd stick to shortspear > javelin. The range is shorter, but you can also use it in melee. This means that you only need one weapon*, so you can devote all your weapon focus, imp crit, etc to that. *Though obviously since you're throwing them around, you'd want multiple spears. Tridents are also nice, but have a much shorter range. You can compensate for that, but it's probably not worth it for the damage and set vs charge. I wouldn't worry excessively about range though, what with Fast Movement and Skirmish. Also, if you're DM allows using Flaws from Unearthed Arcana - you can sacrifice 1 HP/level for +10' movement. Orc shotputs take EWP, or if you're an orc you get it free (same as Dwarven weapons). Considering that the Quiver of Ehlonna (DMG) looks like a standard arrow quiver but can carry 60 arrows, 18 javelins, and 6 spears/quarterstaves/bows in extradimensional space... I'd say that you can have a javelin-quiver that holds 18 javelins, and would be obviously larger than an arrow quiver. Also, IMO one could carry 3-4 javelins in their offhand (not weilded, just "stored" there, or 2 spears wouldn't be extravagent IMO). *EDIT* Oh ya, long swords are about as long as javelins. If he says you can't carry multiple long swords, I guess you're SOL. And contrary to the pictures in the PHB, IMO javelins are much skinnier than shortspears. Also, depending on how high your CON is, I'd shy away from Extend Rage. Unless you fly into it at the first sign of a fight, it will often last long enough anyways. And once you have ~4 rages/day, I wouldn't waste a feat on more. On average you're supposed to have about 4 encounters per day and you can only rage once per encounter, so having 8 rages/day isn't exactly necessary.
Surreal 06-10-05, 08:10 PM	Random humourous thought: a barbarian throwing a returning caber every round (caber found in Masters of the Wild)
jaerad 06-11-05, 02:37 AM	Random humourous thought: a barbarian throwing a returning caber every round (caber found in Masters of the Wild) Heh. (If you don't get it, a caber is basically a log).
Lo77o 06-11-05, 03:29 AM	Another random thing... one of my old rangers had a cursed "returning" bow... if the ammo dident break on impact it would return the next round, was kind of hellish to get hit by my own arrows 50% of the time, but as soon as i found the command word to make the arrows go into a quiver instead of striking me it was kind of cool.
Trakx 06-11-05, 12:01 PM	Another random thing... one of my old rangers had a cursed "returning" bow... if the ammo dident break on impact it would return the next round, was kind of hellish to get hit by my own arrows 50% of the time, but as soon as i found the command word to make the arrows go into a quiver instead of striking me it was kind of cool. DUDE, that could be cool! If I understand right, and only if I understand right, if the arrows didn't strike their target, they returned to your quiver. That would still take a while to get the flinching factor under control with having arrows coming back! lol