Barbarian Rogue Feedback wanted [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian Rogue Feedback wanted [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tiger-SB
10-31-04, 08:40 PM I've been thinking about a Barbarian/Rogue character for a while now and I wanted to run it past people here to get some comments and feedback on. He'll be starting at L1 but I like to plan out my characters at the beginning.

So everyone knows we're only using the core 3.5 books (PHB, DMG and MM).

The basic concept I have for this guy is a rogue who can fight ok. I originally started with a Fighter Rogue, but changed that to a Barbarian to take advantage of the uncanny dodge from both classes. I'm looking to have the guy use a range of weapons based on the situation and take the Quick Draw feat so he can quickly change weapons. As an example, he might shot off a bow in the first round and draw either a 2H sword (or a heavy flail if facing undead) for melee combat. During melee combat I'll try to get sneak attacks in either via flanking or using feint - comments on the usefulness of feint would be appreciated as I've never tried it. He'll be wearing light armor so with the Barbarian's fast movement he should be able to move around the combat field quite well. Shields seem to be a bad idea for this character as they get the in way when trying to fire a bow, and give an armor check penalty.

Currently I'm thinking of the following...

Race: Human
Classes: Barbarian 8, Rogue 12 (at L20 gives an HP base like a d8 character - Eg. Cleric)
Human means no XP penalty as well as an extra feat and skill which are all good. First level will be as a rogue for the skill points and then alternating the classes with double rogue levels at L6, L11 and L18 to build up the rogue levels.

Starting stats
Str: 15
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Strength will be needed for the melee combat. Dexterity because he'll be in light armor and will be using lots of Dexterity based skills. Constitution so he can survive in combat. Intelligence to give him access to more skill points, and possibly some useful feats. For Wisdom and Charisma I'm out of stat points, but I don't want negatives there.

For skills, I've calculated that I can do 7 or 8 rogue skills well (7 at an average of 21 at L20, or 8 at an average of 19 at L20) and 3 or 4 Barbarian skills. For the Barbarian skills I'm looking at Survival, Listen, Climb and Jump. They seem like a good set, and I can put 4 starting points into the last 3 at L1 as they are also rogue skills. Climb and Jump won't be that high by L20 (only about 14) but the Survival and Listen will be around 20.

For rogue skills I'm not completely sure. There are a small set of skills which I consider required and then some other optional skills I'm trying to decide between.

Required skills: Tumble, Search, Disable Device, and Open Locks.
Those allow me to do the main rogue only tasks (deal with locks and traps) and tumble will be needed for my combat style of looking to flank opponents a lot.

Optional Skills: Use Magic Device, Gather Information, Spot, Hide & Move Silently, Bluff and Sense Motive.

I'm not too familiar with Use Magic Device so some comments from other people on how useful it is would be appreciated.

Gather Information may or may not be required depending on the rest of the group (currently unknown). Given our DM it would be wise for at least one person in the party to have this skill.

Spot complements the Listen skill, but may or may not be needed. I'm sure I could survive without, but it also looks useful.

Hide & Move Silently basically go together as a pair as I can't see the point of only taking one of them. I'm not sure if I'll have the skill points left to take these two though.

Bluff is something I'm considering since I've learnt about being able to use feint in combat to deny an opponent his dexterity bonus and thus get in a sneak attack. However, I am unsure of how effective this really will be. Comments on this tactic would be appreciated.

Sense Motive kinda pairs with Bluff as the counter to feint and also useful for talking to NPCs to determine if they're lying through their teeth or not.

For feats, I'm looking to get Improved Initiative at L3 and Quick Draw at L6. For L1 I get 2 feats and I was originally thinking of Power Attack and Cleave, but now I'm wondering about Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. Again this depends on how viable feinting in combat really is. For later feats I'll probably get Iron Will at L9 and after that I'm not sure.

Any and all comments, feedback or suggestions regarding this character would be appreciated, and this includes pointing out any flaws in my design. Thanks :)
Blade2718
10-31-04, 09:50 PM Use Magic Device is one of the most potent skills in the game.

Feinting will be unnecessary if you have a reliable flanker with you. Even if you don't, you'll have a nice meaty Str to keep the damage up. The Barbarian speed has greater synergy with the Spring Attack, over straight-up tanking.
MetalGemini
10-31-04, 09:58 PM I'd stick with just Barb 5 with Extra Rage feat (CW). Gives you 4 rages/day and gives more room for Rogue skill points. 5d12 HD should be enough to beef up your hp so you're at a safe level in melee. Rog 15 also gets you another special ability and +2d6 sneak attack.

I had a similar character concept a while ago and it frustrated me a bit because I couldn't find any PrCs that would really mesh well with it. But just sticking to core classes seemed to be the most effective route.

Feint is only worth it if you can do it as a free action (Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint). Otherwise you lose a turn that you can attack or move into a flanking position on, or both.

Hope that helps some.
rilem
10-31-04, 10:05 PM Ditto on UMD. Also spring attack, which is a great survival tool for rogues and works well with a high strength. Though I might wait to get an idea of the other party members before finalizing your feats, if you can.
PhaedrusXY
11-01-04, 02:12 AM Don't bother with Feinting, if you think you'll have a reliable partner to flank with. Even with Improved Feint, it still takes a Move Equivalent Action (no way to get it for free with only core books). So you only get to make one attack per round.

Use Magic Device is a great skill... but you can certainly get buy without it if you have casters in your party to use any wands, staffs, etc that you find. If you're going to put points into Survival, I'd get the Track feat. And if you're going to do that, you might consider taking two levels of ranger. I'd suggest Barb2/Rng2/Rogue16. Most of your hit points are from Con at the higher levels, anyway.

If you decide to get Spring Attack, you might consider not worrying as much about Tumble ranks. You can use Spring Attack to keep from drawing an AoO from one target. And unless your DM uses the optional rules on opposed Tumble checks, you probably only need enough ranks to make a DC 15 reliably, anyway.

For your rogue skills, I'd probably go with Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Locks, Hide, Move Silently, Gather Information, and Sense Motive more or less maxed. Then put some in Tumble. But it depends on play style, and who you're going to be partied with.
Tiger-SB
11-01-04, 03:18 PM Thanks for all the comments everyone.

It sounds like feinting in combat is only semi-useful and I'll have to invest 2 feats and 1 skill to get it that way as well. There will be either another Barbarian or a Fighter in the group for me to flank with so I think I can safely cross feinting off the list.

With regards to feats, no one's commented on my picks of Improved Initiative, Quick Draw and Iron Will for L3, L6 & L9, which I'm hoping means they're good picks. For L1 I'm now going back to looking at Power Attack and Cleave but maybe there are some better options out there.

Thanks for the suggestion about the track feat Phaedrus, but I know one player is keen on a Ranger so unless he changes his mind there's probably not much need for my character to have the track feat as well. That could raise the question of why take the Survival skill, but from looking at the Barbarian skills list I couldn't see any better skills to sink points into - I'm open to suggestions though.

Use Magic Device seems to be a well regarded skill, so I'll add that to my list of definite skills.

For Spring Attack I'm not too sure how effective it would be in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it restricts you to a single attack per round which doesn't sound so good at high levels and it costs 3 feats which is expensive. Perhaps someone who's more familar with it's uses could give me some more specific information on how it works and the pro's and con's of it.
PhaedrusXY
11-01-04, 03:39 PM For Spring Attack I'm not too sure how effective it would be in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it restricts you to a single attack per round which doesn't sound so good at high levels and it costs 3 feats which is expensive. Perhaps someone who's more familar with it's uses could give me some more specific information on how it works and the pro's and con's of it.You use it basically in the same way you use Tumble most of the time. You use it to close with a monster that has reach. You use it to move to flank during combat, etc. The only time you'd probably actually use it to move both before and after attacking is if you're fighting some really nasty monster that you REALLY don't want to take a full attack from. But it is extremely valuable under that specific circumstance. It's entirely optional as far as feat chains, IMO. But if you do opt to take it, I'd seriously consider not taking very many... or any... ranks in Tumble, as they basically fulfill the same roles. Personally, I'd probably just use Tumble and find a better use for three feats.

As far as your feat choices: I like Quick Draw and Improved Initiative ok, but am not too keen on Iron Will. If someone else is going to be the Tracker, you might consider just using those Survival points to instead advance some of your rogue skills. You'll have to pay the cross-class price for them, but are not limited on max ranks as if they were cross-class skills, because they're class skills for one of your classes. I'd consider some of the tactical type feats, like Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, etc.
richelieu
11-02-04, 01:39 PM I also am considering making a Barbarian/Rogue.
I will definitely take Spring Attack and use a glaive. The following example assumes your foe does not have a reach weapon. If he does, you're both even:
You can flank a target with your good barb speed, smack him with +2 from flanking and extra damage from rogue sneak attack, then spring back 5 or 10 feet. Then, when the enemy closes with you on his turn, you get an attack of opportunity when he leaves the reach weapon's threatened area to get next to you.
As you can see, the reach weapon is key to this strategy. It is important to get Combat Reflexes to take full advantage of these AoOs.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tiger-SB 10-31-04, 08:40 PM	I've been thinking about a Barbarian/Rogue character for a while now and I wanted to run it past people here to get some comments and feedback on. He'll be starting at L1 but I like to plan out my characters at the beginning. So everyone knows we're only using the core 3.5 books (PHB, DMG and MM). The basic concept I have for this guy is a rogue who can fight ok. I originally started with a Fighter Rogue, but changed that to a Barbarian to take advantage of the uncanny dodge from both classes. I'm looking to have the guy use a range of weapons based on the situation and take the Quick Draw feat so he can quickly change weapons. As an example, he might shot off a bow in the first round and draw either a 2H sword (or a heavy flail if facing undead) for melee combat. During melee combat I'll try to get sneak attacks in either via flanking or using feint - comments on the usefulness of feint would be appreciated as I've never tried it. He'll be wearing light armor so with the Barbarian's fast movement he should be able to move around the combat field quite well. Shields seem to be a bad idea for this character as they get the in way when trying to fire a bow, and give an armor check penalty. Currently I'm thinking of the following... Race: Human Classes: Barbarian 8, Rogue 12 (at L20 gives an HP base like a d8 character - Eg. Cleric) Human means no XP penalty as well as an extra feat and skill which are all good. First level will be as a rogue for the skill points and then alternating the classes with double rogue levels at L6, L11 and L18 to build up the rogue levels. Starting stats Str: 15 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10 Strength will be needed for the melee combat. Dexterity because he'll be in light armor and will be using lots of Dexterity based skills. Constitution so he can survive in combat. Intelligence to give him access to more skill points, and possibly some useful feats. For Wisdom and Charisma I'm out of stat points, but I don't want negatives there. For skills, I've calculated that I can do 7 or 8 rogue skills well (7 at an average of 21 at L20, or 8 at an average of 19 at L20) and 3 or 4 Barbarian skills. For the Barbarian skills I'm looking at Survival, Listen, Climb and Jump. They seem like a good set, and I can put 4 starting points into the last 3 at L1 as they are also rogue skills. Climb and Jump won't be that high by L20 (only about 14) but the Survival and Listen will be around 20. For rogue skills I'm not completely sure. There are a small set of skills which I consider required and then some other optional skills I'm trying to decide between. Required skills: Tumble, Search, Disable Device, and Open Locks. Those allow me to do the main rogue only tasks (deal with locks and traps) and tumble will be needed for my combat style of looking to flank opponents a lot. Optional Skills: Use Magic Device, Gather Information, Spot, Hide & Move Silently, Bluff and Sense Motive. I'm not too familiar with Use Magic Device so some comments from other people on how useful it is would be appreciated. Gather Information may or may not be required depending on the rest of the group (currently unknown). Given our DM it would be wise for at least one person in the party to have this skill. Spot complements the Listen skill, but may or may not be needed. I'm sure I could survive without, but it also looks useful. Hide & Move Silently basically go together as a pair as I can't see the point of only taking one of them. I'm not sure if I'll have the skill points left to take these two though. Bluff is something I'm considering since I've learnt about being able to use feint in combat to deny an opponent his dexterity bonus and thus get in a sneak attack. However, I am unsure of how effective this really will be. Comments on this tactic would be appreciated. Sense Motive kinda pairs with Bluff as the counter to feint and also useful for talking to NPCs to determine if they're lying through their teeth or not. For feats, I'm looking to get Improved Initiative at L3 and Quick Draw at L6. For L1 I get 2 feats and I was originally thinking of Power Attack and Cleave, but now I'm wondering about Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. Again this depends on how viable feinting in combat really is. For later feats I'll probably get Iron Will at L9 and after that I'm not sure. Any and all comments, feedback or suggestions regarding this character would be appreciated, and this includes pointing out any flaws in my design. Thanks :)
Blade2718 10-31-04, 09:50 PM	Use Magic Device is one of the most potent skills in the game. Feinting will be unnecessary if you have a reliable flanker with you. Even if you don't, you'll have a nice meaty Str to keep the damage up. The Barbarian speed has greater synergy with the Spring Attack, over straight-up tanking.
MetalGemini 10-31-04, 09:58 PM	I'd stick with just Barb 5 with Extra Rage feat (CW). Gives you 4 rages/day and gives more room for Rogue skill points. 5d12 HD should be enough to beef up your hp so you're at a safe level in melee. Rog 15 also gets you another special ability and +2d6 sneak attack. I had a similar character concept a while ago and it frustrated me a bit because I couldn't find any PrCs that would really mesh well with it. But just sticking to core classes seemed to be the most effective route. Feint is only worth it if you can do it as a free action (Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint). Otherwise you lose a turn that you can attack or move into a flanking position on, or both. Hope that helps some.
rilem 10-31-04, 10:05 PM	Ditto on UMD. Also spring attack, which is a great survival tool for rogues and works well with a high strength. Though I might wait to get an idea of the other party members before finalizing your feats, if you can.
PhaedrusXY 11-01-04, 02:12 AM	Don't bother with Feinting, if you think you'll have a reliable partner to flank with. Even with Improved Feint, it still takes a Move Equivalent Action (no way to get it for free with only core books). So you only get to make one attack per round. Use Magic Device is a great skill... but you can certainly get buy without it if you have casters in your party to use any wands, staffs, etc that you find. If you're going to put points into Survival, I'd get the Track feat. And if you're going to do that, you might consider taking two levels of ranger. I'd suggest Barb2/Rng2/Rogue16. Most of your hit points are from Con at the higher levels, anyway. If you decide to get Spring Attack, you might consider not worrying as much about Tumble ranks. You can use Spring Attack to keep from drawing an AoO from one target. And unless your DM uses the optional rules on opposed Tumble checks, you probably only need enough ranks to make a DC 15 reliably, anyway. For your rogue skills, I'd probably go with Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Locks, Hide, Move Silently, Gather Information, and Sense Motive more or less maxed. Then put some in Tumble. But it depends on play style, and who you're going to be partied with.
Tiger-SB 11-01-04, 03:18 PM	Thanks for all the comments everyone. It sounds like feinting in combat is only semi-useful and I'll have to invest 2 feats and 1 skill to get it that way as well. There will be either another Barbarian or a Fighter in the group for me to flank with so I think I can safely cross feinting off the list. With regards to feats, no one's commented on my picks of Improved Initiative, Quick Draw and Iron Will for L3, L6 & L9, which I'm hoping means they're good picks. For L1 I'm now going back to looking at Power Attack and Cleave but maybe there are some better options out there. Thanks for the suggestion about the track feat Phaedrus, but I know one player is keen on a Ranger so unless he changes his mind there's probably not much need for my character to have the track feat as well. That could raise the question of why take the Survival skill, but from looking at the Barbarian skills list I couldn't see any better skills to sink points into - I'm open to suggestions though. Use Magic Device seems to be a well regarded skill, so I'll add that to my list of definite skills. For Spring Attack I'm not too sure how effective it would be in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it restricts you to a single attack per round which doesn't sound so good at high levels and it costs 3 feats which is expensive. Perhaps someone who's more familar with it's uses could give me some more specific information on how it works and the pro's and con's of it.
PhaedrusXY 11-01-04, 03:39 PM	For Spring Attack I'm not too sure how effective it would be in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it restricts you to a single attack per round which doesn't sound so good at high levels and it costs 3 feats which is expensive. Perhaps someone who's more familar with it's uses could give me some more specific information on how it works and the pro's and con's of it.You use it basically in the same way you use Tumble most of the time. You use it to close with a monster that has reach. You use it to move to flank during combat, etc. The only time you'd probably actually use it to move both before and after attacking is if you're fighting some really nasty monster that you REALLY don't want to take a full attack from. But it is extremely valuable under that specific circumstance. It's entirely optional as far as feat chains, IMO. But if you do opt to take it, I'd seriously consider not taking very many... or any... ranks in Tumble, as they basically fulfill the same roles. Personally, I'd probably just use Tumble and find a better use for three feats. As far as your feat choices: I like Quick Draw and Improved Initiative ok, but am not too keen on Iron Will. If someone else is going to be the Tracker, you might consider just using those Survival points to instead advance some of your rogue skills. You'll have to pay the cross-class price for them, but are not limited on max ranks as if they were cross-class skills, because they're class skills for one of your classes. I'd consider some of the tactical type feats, like Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, etc.
richelieu 11-02-04, 01:39 PM	I also am considering making a Barbarian/Rogue. I will definitely take Spring Attack and use a glaive. The following example assumes your foe does not have a reach weapon. If he does, you're both even: You can flank a target with your good barb speed, smack him with +2 from flanking and extra damage from rogue sneak attack, then spring back 5 or 10 feet. Then, when the enemy closes with you on his turn, you get an attack of opportunity when he leaves the reach weapon's threatened area to get next to you. As you can see, the reach weapon is key to this strategy. It is important to get Combat Reflexes to take full advantage of these AoOs.