Barbarian VS. Fighter dueling. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian VS. Fighter dueling. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talosan
08-19-04, 03:03 PM To cut a long argument short, me and a friend were arguing today about who would be a victor between a level 20 Fighter and a level 20 Barbarian in a dueling arena of sorts. I shall be playing the roll of the fighter which I feel in a dueling arena environment should have a massive advantage over the fighter.
We came to the conclusion that to settle the argument we should both create our characters and pit them against each other.
The guidlines for character creation were as follows:

1. We play pure level 20 classes - i.e. Barbarian 20 and Fighter 20.
2. More or less ANY material is available for use.
3. Standard gold for a 20th level character (760k) :smirk:
4. No leadership or cohorts.
5. No buffing time for either character.
6. Both players use the following rolled stats: 11,14,14,16,16,12
7. Race can be any without an ECL

I need some suggestions for race, feats, items and tactics.
I think my best bet may be to simply get an abominably high armour class and wait til his rage runs out (probably in somewhere approaching 15 rounds :S) His damage output is going to be pretty fierce with +8 Strength when he rages with a Great Axe.
What would happen if I took Imp. Unarmed Strike and Imp. Natural Attack (and perhaps some items to enhance my unarmed damge?) , would I use the Monks table to work out my damage as if I were a 1st level monk? This seems like a great alternative to being disarmed. Can I use a shield and Unarmed strike?
Any other suggestions would be great. Thanks in advance.

I have some questions about raging too:
1. Can he try disarm or trip me when raging?
newblar32
08-19-04, 05:31 PM I have some questions about raging too:
1. Can he try disarm or trip me when raging?

The fighter will be the one tripping/disarming. He'll have all the feats, whereas the barbarian will not. As the fighter you should have improved trip, improved grapple, improved disarm, jotunbrud, improved sunder. Then pick up gloves of fearsome grip, the sweeping weapon property, boots of steadfast, adamantine weapon. As the fighter you can easily cover ALL your bases in these areas, whereas the barbarian can not, he will have a weak point (he'll have 8 feats max, whereas you will have up to 20). Elusive target (CW) is a feat you should also pick up. It'll negate ALL of his power attack, when he realizes it he'll stop power attacking, but you'll also be hit for less damage per attack.

Use that versatility to your advantage.

Also, trying to outlast his rage is suicide. That's 15 rounds he gets to beat on you, and in those 15 rounds he is going to score hits. Your best bet is to rely on tripping/grappling/disarming and take advantage of what he does not cover.
CompleteSatori
08-19-04, 06:28 PM Can I design his Barbarian since you are getting help here?
See, most of the base classes have their niche, and this is the classic versatility vs. power fight, and I would love to help counterbalance the excellent advice I am sure you will get here.

Tell him to PM me or start a thread here, and we will see what we can do to optimize both of your characters, and then see who comes out on top.
allenchan
08-19-04, 06:44 PM If I were doing it, it'd probally come down to fighter spiked chain/tripper cheese, versus barbarian greatsword+armor spikes twf cheese. Would be fun to see :D
*R*
08-19-04, 06:51 PM Talosan:
Check out Snow Savant's Gattling Chain Gun Tripper (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=163005)
The base build is 20 levels of Fighter.
You'll need 17 Dex to qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, a prereq for Double Hit, but neither ITWF or Double Hit is required.
You can get a +Dex item to qualify for it, though.

In short:
* 10' reach, also threatens at 5'
* Can switch to Two-Weapon Fighting with the same weapon (losing reach) to hit 7 times on a full attack
* Gets Attacks of Opportunity when opponent enters threatened area
* 5' step after an Attack of Opportunity (1/round)
* Hits twice (two weapons/heads of double-weapon) on an Attack of Opportunity
* Gets an Attack of Opportunity if the opponent hits you
* Trips without provoking an AoO

Each of those 7 attacks, and all of the AoOs can be trip attempts.
Also, when you take your 5' step after an AoO provoked by an opponent charging into your threatened area... the charge fails!
newblar32
08-19-04, 07:19 PM If I were doing it, it'd probally come down to fighter spiked chain/tripper cheese, versus barbarian greatsword+armor spikes twf cheese. Would be fun to see

A trip build is 100% countered by buying boots of steadfast (immune to tripping).
allenchan
08-19-04, 07:21 PM And thats why the barbarian needs to be optimized, too. Not just the fighter. :D
Talosan
08-19-04, 08:54 PM Thanks alot for all the input so far.
Im pretty sure that he's going to some effort to optimize his Barbarian.
I'm pretty wary about going for the tripping route, when he's raging his strength is probably going to be in the region of 35ish. He's going to be pretty tough to trip.
*R*
08-19-04, 09:43 PM I want to clarify that Snow Savant's build, while capable of tripping, is by no means crippled without tripping.
It's a full BAB build that gets 7 attacks a round and, at 10', as many attacks of opportunity as you get your Dex bonus. Twice as many attacks of opportunity as your Dex bonus at 5'.
And it can take an attack of opportunity every time your opponent hits you.
Damage alone, that's not insignificant. If you don't want to try tripping, no problem. And the Knock-Down means you get to try tripping for free every time you do at least 10 damage on a hit.
SuperThread
08-19-04, 11:13 PM Also, trying to outlast his rage is suicide.

Not necessarilty. Sidestep, which is an absolutely essential feat for this fighter, means that the Barbarian will never get off a full attack (and if you add a nice item of +X to Tumble you can be taking ten-foot steps [see Epic SRD]). Alternatively, you could cheese out and buy an item of Rope Trick, which you could hide in.

Ultimately, the Fighter is at a disadvantage in straight melee because of his lower damage output, so you're going to have to focus on something else. Sunder and Disarm are both options, though you can bet that the Barb will have backups in this sort of battle.

By the way, if you're going to use Snow Savant's build, use Kawanagas (from OA) instead of the chain, because they allow you to use both of the build's strengths at the same time.
lonewar
08-20-04, 12:19 AM If going with a chain reach fighter get an item with constant enlarge on it, it gives you a 20' threatened area.

Then get Combat Expertise and Improved Combat expertise to drop 20 BAB into AC while hes raging. (20)

Spiked Chain +5 Defending (5)

Improved Buckler Defense for shield goodness while using the chain. Mithril, +5 (6)

Mithril Full Plate of Greater Fortification +5. (14)

Ring of Protection +5 (5)

Necklace of Natural Armor +5 (5)

Dex 16 (3)

Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 insight to AC) (1)

Cloak of Major Displacement

Dust of Disappearance

Amulet of Non- Detection

So when hes raging you will have an AC of about 10+20+5+6+14+5+5+3+1 = 69 and a 50% miss chance if he does connect.

Meanwhile he should have about a +42 to hit you.

Use the rest of your 16 someodd feats however you see fit.
Elgonn
08-20-04, 12:33 AM Ditch the buckler. Use an animated tower shield.
Black Sheep
08-20-04, 04:47 AM If you fear that tripping will be difficult, you could also use Stand still from the XPH. With that you force your opponent to make Ref saves if they allow you AoOs for moving.

From the SRD:
STAND STILL [GENERAL]
You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).

Remember that anyone can try to tumble to avoid AoOs for moving.
Timely Drought
08-20-04, 07:44 AM Originally posted by Black Sheep

Remember that anyone can try to tumble to avoid AoOs for moving. I thought you couldn't tumble outside of light armor?

Edit: Checked the SRD: You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.
Largegnome
08-20-04, 10:31 AM Assuming neither of you is using ranged weapons, you could try a human fighter with

Str16 (21 with level advancement)
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Char 11

Feats:

Improved Sunder
Power Attack
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Sidestep [Miniatures Handbook]
Combat Expertise
Karmic Strike[Complete Warrior]
Improved Bullrush
Improved Trip
Jotunbrud
Combat Brute[CW]
Shock Trooper[CW]
Combat reflexes
Improved Initiative
Hold the Line[CW]
Stand Still[ExPsiHB]
Improved Combat Expertise
Elusive Target[CW]

Skills:
Tumble 11 ranks
Carries a greatsword and a Guisarme;
Wears a Chain Shirt.

Wield your guisarme.
If you win initiative (likely, since you have decent dex and improved initiative), declare "negate power attack" (Elusive target) against him, declare you're activating Karmic Strike, declare a full Heedless Charge (-20 AC, +40 damage), leave your guisarme, draw the greatsword, charge him and smash him. Now it's up to him.
If he full-attacks you, you're going to make any AoO due to Karmic Strike at full attack bonus with +40 damage per hit. You have declared "negate power attack" on him, so he' s not going to power attack you. If he only hits once and moves, you're hitting him back and AoO him 'cause he' s moved away.
If you feel evil, you could even try to sunder his weapon (+4 due to Jotunbrud, +4 because you're wielding a TH weapon) and "sundering cleave" him(Combat Brute).
If he doesn't attack and only moves, you've dealt at least 50 damage and have not been hit.
If he only moves, and he moves more than 5 feet, he's ready for another charge next round, and this time you can even combine "heedless charge" with "momentum swing" and "karmic strike".
Trying to trip or grapple you is not a good idea (the touch attack causes an AoO if it hits, due to Karmic Strike, and you can move out of reach with sidestep as soon as he hits), sundering your weapon is difficult if both of you are using magic ones (if you aren't, just sunder his weapon as soon as you charge during your round: you're likely to win the opposed check since you're at full attack bonus due to heedless charge, +2 due to the charge itself, +4 'cause of Jotunbrud and he's not raging yet; all the damage from your power attack should suffice to destroy a non-magical weapon; then you can use "sundering cleave" and smack him too...) and overrun is really a poor idea (it causes another AoO, again at full AB and +40 damage...) even if it works.

(If he wins Initiative and charges you, you are in the worst situation, but you still have some options: you can AoO him with your guisarme as soon as he enters your threatened area (combat reflexes); try to trip him. If you don't manage to trip him, don't leave your guisarme to avoid being tripped yourself: even if you're prone, you still threaten the area he's leaving, so, unless he has high tumble, you're going to AoO him. Use "stand still"; he has to pass a reflex save of 22+ magical enhancements to damage and strenght (average) to finish his charge.)
When it's your turn, if he is within reach, attack him once ( declaring you're using "momentum swing" , "karmic strike" and "negate power attack" on him this round) and then move away making a tumble check. If he's not adjacent to you, again declare "momentum swing", "karmic strike", and "negate power attack"; then, either spring attack once and get out of his reach, or charge him again combining "heedless charge", "momentum swing" and "karmic strike".
From now on, the idea is to keep attacking him more often than he attacks you. Always finish your turn at least 5 feet away from him: the "karmic strike + sidestep" combo won't work if you're within his reach at the beginning of his turn, as per FAQ (he can make a 5 feet step between his attacks).
So, just move away from him as much as you can.
If he tries to charge you you get to AoO him once for 'cause of hold the line, and an additional time if you're hit ("karmic strike"). Hit back, and don't use "sidestep". Full attack him as soon as it is your turn, then move 5 feet away.
If he tries to move and full attack, hit & move back as soon as he hits you: he's already used his 5 feet step for the round. Then spring attack again. Repeat. He's only hitting once per round, you're attacking 5 or 2 times a round.
Use Power Attack wisely (in conjunction with "spring attack" and "karmic strike") and you should win (he's not likely to have "elusive target" himself; if he has it, you still have an adventage (you attack more often than him) and he' s wasted 2 feats (dodge and mobility)).
If he has a reach weapon, just use your guisarme instead of the greatsword.

I' m sure there's something I haven't covered, but it seems I can't remember what it is at the moment ^^''.
Oh, well, anyway that' s just my 2 cents...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talosan 08-19-04, 03:03 PM	To cut a long argument short, me and a friend were arguing today about who would be a victor between a level 20 Fighter and a level 20 Barbarian in a dueling arena of sorts. I shall be playing the roll of the fighter which I feel in a dueling arena environment should have a massive advantage over the fighter. We came to the conclusion that to settle the argument we should both create our characters and pit them against each other. The guidlines for character creation were as follows: 1. We play pure level 20 classes - i.e. Barbarian 20 and Fighter 20. 2. More or less ANY material is available for use. 3. Standard gold for a 20th level character (760k) :smirk: 4. No leadership or cohorts. 5. No buffing time for either character. 6. Both players use the following rolled stats: 11,14,14,16,16,12 7. Race can be any without an ECL I need some suggestions for race, feats, items and tactics. I think my best bet may be to simply get an abominably high armour class and wait til his rage runs out (probably in somewhere approaching 15 rounds :S) His damage output is going to be pretty fierce with +8 Strength when he rages with a Great Axe. What would happen if I took Imp. Unarmed Strike and Imp. Natural Attack (and perhaps some items to enhance my unarmed damge?) , would I use the Monks table to work out my damage as if I were a 1st level monk? This seems like a great alternative to being disarmed. Can I use a shield and Unarmed strike? Any other suggestions would be great. Thanks in advance. I have some questions about raging too: 1. Can he try disarm or trip me when raging?
newblar32 08-19-04, 05:31 PM	I have some questions about raging too: 1. Can he try disarm or trip me when raging? The fighter will be the one tripping/disarming. He'll have all the feats, whereas the barbarian will not. As the fighter you should have improved trip, improved grapple, improved disarm, jotunbrud, improved sunder. Then pick up gloves of fearsome grip, the sweeping weapon property, boots of steadfast, adamantine weapon. As the fighter you can easily cover ALL your bases in these areas, whereas the barbarian can not, he will have a weak point (he'll have 8 feats max, whereas you will have up to 20). Elusive target (CW) is a feat you should also pick up. It'll negate ALL of his power attack, when he realizes it he'll stop power attacking, but you'll also be hit for less damage per attack. Use that versatility to your advantage. Also, trying to outlast his rage is suicide. That's 15 rounds he gets to beat on you, and in those 15 rounds he is going to score hits. Your best bet is to rely on tripping/grappling/disarming and take advantage of what he does not cover.
CompleteSatori 08-19-04, 06:28 PM	Can I design his Barbarian since you are getting help here? See, most of the base classes have their niche, and this is the classic versatility vs. power fight, and I would love to help counterbalance the excellent advice I am sure you will get here. Tell him to PM me or start a thread here, and we will see what we can do to optimize both of your characters, and then see who comes out on top.
allenchan 08-19-04, 06:44 PM	If I were doing it, it'd probally come down to fighter spiked chain/tripper cheese, versus barbarian greatsword+armor spikes twf cheese. Would be fun to see :D
R 08-19-04, 06:51 PM	Talosan: Check out Snow Savant's Gattling Chain Gun Tripper (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=163005) The base build is 20 levels of Fighter. You'll need 17 Dex to qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, a prereq for Double Hit, but neither ITWF or Double Hit is required. You can get a +Dex item to qualify for it, though. In short: * 10' reach, also threatens at 5' * Can switch to Two-Weapon Fighting with the same weapon (losing reach) to hit 7 times on a full attack * Gets Attacks of Opportunity when opponent enters threatened area * 5' step after an Attack of Opportunity (1/round) * Hits twice (two weapons/heads of double-weapon) on an Attack of Opportunity * Gets an Attack of Opportunity if the opponent hits you * Trips without provoking an AoO Each of those 7 attacks, and all of the AoOs can be trip attempts. Also, when you take your 5' step after an AoO provoked by an opponent charging into your threatened area... the charge fails!
newblar32 08-19-04, 07:19 PM	If I were doing it, it'd probally come down to fighter spiked chain/tripper cheese, versus barbarian greatsword+armor spikes twf cheese. Would be fun to see A trip build is 100% countered by buying boots of steadfast (immune to tripping).
allenchan 08-19-04, 07:21 PM	And thats why the barbarian needs to be optimized, too. Not just the fighter. :D
Talosan 08-19-04, 08:54 PM	Thanks alot for all the input so far. Im pretty sure that he's going to some effort to optimize his Barbarian. I'm pretty wary about going for the tripping route, when he's raging his strength is probably going to be in the region of 35ish. He's going to be pretty tough to trip.
R 08-19-04, 09:43 PM	I want to clarify that Snow Savant's build, while capable of tripping, is by no means crippled without tripping. It's a full BAB build that gets 7 attacks a round and, at 10', as many attacks of opportunity as you get your Dex bonus. Twice as many attacks of opportunity as your Dex bonus at 5'. And it can take an attack of opportunity every time your opponent hits you. Damage alone, that's not insignificant. If you don't want to try tripping, no problem. And the Knock-Down means you get to try tripping for free every time you do at least 10 damage on a hit.
SuperThread 08-19-04, 11:13 PM	Also, trying to outlast his rage is suicide. Not necessarilty. Sidestep, which is an absolutely essential feat for this fighter, means that the Barbarian will never get off a full attack (and if you add a nice item of +X to Tumble you can be taking ten-foot steps [see Epic SRD]). Alternatively, you could cheese out and buy an item of Rope Trick, which you could hide in. Ultimately, the Fighter is at a disadvantage in straight melee because of his lower damage output, so you're going to have to focus on something else. Sunder and Disarm are both options, though you can bet that the Barb will have backups in this sort of battle. By the way, if you're going to use Snow Savant's build, use Kawanagas (from OA) instead of the chain, because they allow you to use both of the build's strengths at the same time.
lonewar 08-20-04, 12:19 AM	If going with a chain reach fighter get an item with constant enlarge on it, it gives you a 20' threatened area. Then get Combat Expertise and Improved Combat expertise to drop 20 BAB into AC while hes raging. (20) Spiked Chain +5 Defending (5) Improved Buckler Defense for shield goodness while using the chain. Mithril, +5 (6) Mithril Full Plate of Greater Fortification +5. (14) Ring of Protection +5 (5) Necklace of Natural Armor +5 (5) Dex 16 (3) Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 insight to AC) (1) Cloak of Major Displacement Dust of Disappearance Amulet of Non- Detection So when hes raging you will have an AC of about 10+20+5+6+14+5+5+3+1 = 69 and a 50% miss chance if he does connect. Meanwhile he should have about a +42 to hit you. Use the rest of your 16 someodd feats however you see fit.
Elgonn 08-20-04, 12:33 AM	Ditch the buckler. Use an animated tower shield.
Black Sheep 08-20-04, 04:47 AM	If you fear that tripping will be difficult, you could also use Stand still from the XPH. With that you force your opponent to make Ref saves if they allow you AoOs for moving. From the SRD: STAND STILL [GENERAL] You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing. Prerequisite: Str 13. Benefit: When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round. Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one). Remember that anyone can try to tumble to avoid AoOs for moving.
Timely Drought 08-20-04, 07:44 AM	Originally posted by Black Sheep Remember that anyone can try to tumble to avoid AoOs for moving. I thought you couldn't tumble outside of light armor? Edit: Checked the SRD: You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.
Largegnome 08-20-04, 10:31 AM	Assuming neither of you is using ranged weapons, you could try a human fighter with Str16 (21 with level advancement) Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Char 11 Feats: Improved Sunder Power Attack Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Sidestep [Miniatures Handbook] Combat Expertise Karmic Strike[Complete Warrior] Improved Bullrush Improved Trip Jotunbrud Combat Brute[CW] Shock Trooper[CW] Combat reflexes Improved Initiative Hold the Line[CW] Stand Still[ExPsiHB] Improved Combat Expertise Elusive Target[CW] Skills: Tumble 11 ranks Carries a greatsword and a Guisarme; Wears a Chain Shirt. Wield your guisarme. If you win initiative (likely, since you have decent dex and improved initiative), declare "negate power attack" (Elusive target) against him, declare you're activating Karmic Strike, declare a full Heedless Charge (-20 AC, +40 damage), leave your guisarme, draw the greatsword, charge him and smash him. Now it's up to him. If he full-attacks you, you're going to make any AoO due to Karmic Strike at full attack bonus with +40 damage per hit. You have declared "negate power attack" on him, so he' s not going to power attack you. If he only hits once and moves, you're hitting him back and AoO him 'cause he' s moved away. If you feel evil, you could even try to sunder his weapon (+4 due to Jotunbrud, +4 because you're wielding a TH weapon) and "sundering cleave" him(Combat Brute). If he doesn't attack and only moves, you've dealt at least 50 damage and have not been hit. If he only moves, and he moves more than 5 feet, he's ready for another charge next round, and this time you can even combine "heedless charge" with "momentum swing" and "karmic strike". Trying to trip or grapple you is not a good idea (the touch attack causes an AoO if it hits, due to Karmic Strike, and you can move out of reach with sidestep as soon as he hits), sundering your weapon is difficult if both of you are using magic ones (if you aren't, just sunder his weapon as soon as you charge during your round: you're likely to win the opposed check since you're at full attack bonus due to heedless charge, +2 due to the charge itself, +4 'cause of Jotunbrud and he's not raging yet; all the damage from your power attack should suffice to destroy a non-magical weapon; then you can use "sundering cleave" and smack him too...) and overrun is really a poor idea (it causes another AoO, again at full AB and +40 damage...) even if it works. (If he wins Initiative and charges you, you are in the worst situation, but you still have some options: you can AoO him with your guisarme as soon as he enters your threatened area (combat reflexes); try to trip him. If you don't manage to trip him, don't leave your guisarme to avoid being tripped yourself: even if you're prone, you still threaten the area he's leaving, so, unless he has high tumble, you're going to AoO him. Use "stand still"; he has to pass a reflex save of 22+ magical enhancements to damage and strenght (average) to finish his charge.) When it's your turn, if he is within reach, attack him once ( declaring you're using "momentum swing" , "karmic strike" and "negate power attack" on him this round) and then move away making a tumble check. If he's not adjacent to you, again declare "momentum swing", "karmic strike", and "negate power attack"; then, either spring attack once and get out of his reach, or charge him again combining "heedless charge", "momentum swing" and "karmic strike". From now on, the idea is to keep attacking him more often than he attacks you. Always finish your turn at least 5 feet away from him: the "karmic strike + sidestep" combo won't work if you're within his reach at the beginning of his turn, as per FAQ (he can make a 5 feet step between his attacks). So, just move away from him as much as you can. If he tries to charge you you get to AoO him once for 'cause of hold the line, and an additional time if you're hit ("karmic strike"). Hit back, and don't use "sidestep". Full attack him as soon as it is your turn, then move 5 feet away. If he tries to move and full attack, hit & move back as soon as he hits you: he's already used his 5 feet step for the round. Then spring attack again. Repeat. He's only hitting once per round, you're attacking 5 or 2 times a round. Use Power Attack wisely (in conjunction with "spring attack" and "karmic strike") and you should win (he's not likely to have "elusive target" himself; if he has it, you still have an adventage (you attack more often than him) and he' s wasted 2 feats (dodge and mobility)). If he has a reach weapon, just use your guisarme instead of the greatsword. I' m sure there's something I haven't covered, but it seems I can't remember what it is at the moment ^^''. Oh, well, anyway that' s just my 2 cents...