Barbarian: Bugbear vs. Golliath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian: Bugbear vs. Golliath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SpartanMD
03-10-05, 11:18 AM Creating a 10th level Barbarian character, and must decide between a Bugbear with a Large sized Warmace used with two hands (taking -2 penalty)and a Golliath who wields the Exotic Golliath Hammer (and has to take the Feat). I was planning on following the Power Attack tree, and definitely using Leap Attack. Which is better for optimization?

Bugbear +4 STR +2 Dex +2 Con -2 Cha and 3 monster HD +3 Natural Armor

Golliath +4 STR -2 Dex +2 Con may use Large weapons, access to cool racial substitutions such as mountain rage and ability to get 4/amatadine.

(I can guess Otto's response :) )

....at work so excuse any gaffs with the rules..... :rolleyes:
Lakom
03-10-05, 11:51 AM Well definitly golliath..racial HD hurts soo much.
lokkesmadr
03-10-05, 11:55 AM Monstrous humanoid hit dice aren't too bad for a melee character, really. You get +1 BAB per hit die and good saves in Reflex and Will.
carnivore
03-10-05, 12:29 PM Not quite...........notice

from the SRD:

BUGBEARS AS CHARACTERS
Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.

+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.

Medium size.
A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.

Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.

+3 natural armor bonus.

+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.

Favored Class: Rogue.
Level adjustment +1.

so a 10th lvl character Bugbear has:

BAB +8(assuming all Barbarian lvls)
saves FRW= +6/+5/+3
HD= 3d8+6d12

1oth lvl Barbarian Goliath
BAB +9
saves FRW +6/+3/+3
HD= 9d12

:D
SpartanMD
03-10-05, 12:31 PM any other suggestions for a race of big barbarian with a large blugeoning weapon if those two aren't optimized?

I really like Leap Attack, as it's not unreasonable to have a 26 Str while raging with a large blugeoning weapon! 3d6 + 12 + 30!

so a 10th lvl character Bugbear has:

BAB +8(assuming all Barbarian lvls)
saves FRW= +6/+5/+3
HD= 3d8+6d12

Worse hp (52 hp) as Con bonus is same, slighly better saves, in addition better dex,
Worse BAB (which is an additional -2 worse due to using large Warmace with two hands),
4 Better AC (due to +3 Natural Armor and +2 Dex)
Better Skills? minor Stealth
4 Feats (2 monster, 1 at 3rd Barb, 1 at 6th Barb)
Power Attack
Leap Attack
???wasn't there a feat to increase Natural Armor???
???

1oth lvl Barbarian Goliath
BAB +9
saves FRW +6/+3/+3
HD= 9d12

Better HP (60hp), slightly worse saves, reflex even worse due to Dex
Better BAB (but must take Exotic Feat for weapon), abiltiy to have reach thru Mountain Rage racial variant, ability to have minor fortification
Worse AC, but ability to get 2/Admantine thru racial variant

4 Feats
Power Attack
Leap Attack
Exotic Weapon (Golliath Warhammer)
??
lokkesmadr
03-10-05, 12:56 PM Not quite...........notice
*SNIP*
Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid

Ah.... Bugbears are just plain humanoids. My point remains valid, but unrelated to bugbears. Silly bugbears.

any other suggestions for a race of big barbarian with a large blugeoning weapon if those two aren't optimized?

Savage Species Half-Ogres are often a good choice. Anthropomorphic African Elephants are quite good too, though ECL 5 with LA +2 will hurt your hitpoints a bit.
carnivore
03-10-05, 01:00 PM half ogres.....excellent idea :D
DM Denubis
03-10-05, 01:00 PM Goliath, in my opinion, is just better. The bugbear levels are horrible for melee characters.

And your damage, when power attacking for full, would be 1d12 + 54 + (Strength * 1.5).

Don't forget that when leap attacking with a two handed weapon, you triple the power attack damage, not double it. Which is why a Frenzied Berserker could potentially power attack for a 1/12 ratio, or if he's a miunted charge type, a 1/36 ratio.

Leap Attack really is a very powerful feat... But only terrible when paired with other multipliers.
Griff_Goodbeard
03-10-05, 01:01 PM I'd go with goliath so you can grab Mountain Rage.

10' reach=sweet :D
Lakom
03-10-05, 01:07 PM IIRC half ogre got nerfed in races of destiny..now it has LA+2

anyway I suggest two levels of soldier of light to take care of the problematic saves.
SpartanMD
03-10-05, 02:15 PM And your damage, when power attacking for full, would be 1d12 + 54 + (Strength * 1.5).

Leap Attack really is a very powerful feat... But only terrible when paired with other multipliers.

How did you get +54? I get +45...

With a str of 26, I would be using a large WarMace in two hands (3d6) + 15 (Str (1.5 x +10) )+ 30 (leap attack) =+45

Now this attack would be at BAB + 10 (str) +2 (charge) -5 (power attack) = BAB + 7

So with a Bugbear, using leap attack, + 16 to hit doing 3d6+45 (max 63) at -2 AC
Khazra Reborn
03-10-05, 03:09 PM I suggest playing a goliath using a large maul 2-handed. Take stone blessed 3 (dwarf), hammer of moradin3 & EWM1 for 2.5 str to damage :eek:
oh, whatever you decide, take monkey grip aswell :P
DM Denubis
03-10-05, 03:16 PM How did you get +54? I get +45...

With a str of 26, I would be using a large WarMace in two hands (3d6) + 15 (Str (1.5 x +10) )+ 30 (leap attack) =+45

Now this attack would be at BAB + 10 (str) +2 (charge) -5 (power attack) = BAB + 7

So with a Bugbear, using leap attack, + 16 to hit doing 3d6+45 (max 63) at -2 AC

I was talking about the goliath. I apologize for not being clear. See, you'd have a +9 BAB.

(9 * 2) * 3 yields 54. But I should've been more specific.
SpartanMD
03-10-05, 04:22 PM I was talking about the goliath. I apologize for not being clear. See, you'd have a +9 BAB.

(9 * 2) * 3 yields 54. But I should've been more specific.

:confused: I'm confused...you're multiplying the BAB by 2 then tripling it? That's not for a Power attack, it's for one of those Greater Power attack type thing, no? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Otto the Bugbear
03-10-05, 07:23 PM You're forgetting the most important reason to go with Bugbear: style.

And floppy ears.

;)

Seriously, looking at everything laid out like that, it'll really end up being a matter of personal preference. The hit points and +1 BAB helps make the goliath more attractive. The dex, natural armor and saves make the bugbear more attractive.

You should also go with bugbear just to avoid my wrath. I can get pretty wrath-ish when you dis me. ;)

I also tend to have a really big aversion to races that are created just to fill space in a supplement. Goliaths aren't as bad as raptorians :rolleyes:, I guess. I'm just strange that way.

Cheers

Otto :)
DM Denubis
03-10-05, 07:36 PM :confused: I'm confused...you're multiplying the BAB by 2 then tripling it? That's not for a Power attack, it's for one of those Greater Power attack type thing, no? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Leap Attack.
ancalimohtar
03-10-05, 07:57 PM Two things.

1) Denubis, one of these days some kid in Idaho reading your posts is going to go ballistic and hunt you down for your tiny font size. There is truly no reason for you to do that.

2) Half-Ogre is LA+2, no racial HD, and is still extremely powerful. I gave one of my players the bright idea of playing the LA+1 SS version, and he sort of destroyed everything. The Goliath has Medium space and Medium reach, but the Half-Ogre has LARGE space and LARGE reach. Meaning, for that extra LA you have to pay, he's significantly more powerful. No size adjustment in the game is as significant as Medium => Large. The character increases his battlefield control area to 400% of the original--he threatens an area of NINE HUNDRED SQUARE FEET. Buy yourself Large and in Charge, Combat Reflexes, and pound away.
DM Denubis
03-10-05, 08:24 PM Two things.

1) Denubis, one of these days some kid in Idaho reading your posts is going to go ballistic and hunt you down for your tiny font size. There is truly no reason for you to do that.

Idaho? I hope he makes a Potato Powered Shotgun (You know I wish I knew the code for the trademark symbol.) and kills me with that. I mean, could there BE a more interesting way to die?

Listen, man, it's just small font. And it's not even that small. If you can't read it, get your eyes checked, or change your resolution, eh?
neilthrun
03-10-05, 08:35 PM Ogre isn't a bad choice. +10 strength, +4 con, +5 natural armor. An ogre barbarian has a land speed of 50. Not to mention making the jump checks for leap attack will be much easier as a large creature with such a large strength.

The obvious draw backs are the bab and hd. +3 bab over 6 levels is harsh to a power attacking character early on. Although a huge great sword(monkey gripped) dealing 5d6 damage is nice.
And of course as a large creature your free to enter into the warhulk prc.

Personally I feel a bab of 13-16 is fine for a power attacking character assuming his strength can stay at 26+(which should be very easy with items, level boosts,class abilities, and racial modifiers) for most of combat.

Other good choices are trolls(which doesnt leave much room for prcs or class levels), Orcs, or Centaurs.
Jeremymc
03-10-05, 10:23 PM Gwaha. Warhulk always makes me laugh. A Spring attacking warhulk is just gross. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack.

You could make an anthropomorphic Giant Frog Warhulk and destroy armies.

Actually... I think I will!
Otto the Bugbear
03-10-05, 11:11 PM Listen, man, it's just small font. And it's not even that small. If you can't read it, get your eyes checked, or change your resolution, eh?

I explained this once before. People will start ignoring all your posts. That would be a shame considering the thought you put into most of them. (The only exception that I've seen is this ridiculous defense of font size=1 posts.)

Your choice though. Be stubborn about it if you want. Nobody can force you to be reasonable.

Cheers

Otto :)
DM Denubis
03-10-05, 11:54 PM Alright, if it really annoys people that much, I won't do it anymore...

Damned bugbear and his logic... Always trying to take the shinies... :twitch:
Kuroi Kenshi
03-11-05, 12:58 AM Yay! <3
Shandrakor
03-11-05, 04:14 AM I also tend to have a really big aversion to races that are created just to fill space in a supplement. Goliaths aren't as bad as raptorians :rolleyes:, I guess. I'm just strange that way.

I do too. However, since I saw the Goliath Barbarian with the big axe they're putting out in plastic mini format, I decided to throw one at my PCs. For you WILL buy all our hardcover supplements! I'm with you on the Raptorian issue -- any player that comes to my game with that book meets a King of Smack...or a discretionary lightning bolt. ;)

Gwaha. Warhulk always makes me laugh. A Spring attacking warhulk is just gross. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack.

You could make an anthropomorphic Giant Frog Warhulk and destroy armies.

Actually... I think I will! I think I'm going to get one of those myself...heh... Revenge for what those silly PCs did with my Rain of Frogs (sniffle). Sorry -- random DM anguish.
scrollreader
03-11-05, 08:05 AM Like any other multiplier in D&D, you don't get to multiply the multiplier.

So if FB gets you 4x PA, and Leap Attack gets you 3x, you end up with a total modifier of 6x PA. But don't stop there. Anything that multiplies your total damage (Spirited Charge, Valorous Weapon Enhancements) will double it /after/ PA.

So. If I have Spirited charge and Leap Attack, and a +1 Valorous Lance (Used two handed, of course) (PA penalty * 6)*4 is my payoff, just for Power Attack.
SpartanMD
03-11-05, 12:19 PM How about a 9th level human barbarian reincarnated into a Bugbear? Would all of the attribute modifiers apply? Would you re adjust con for all of the old levels?

Just a thought.

I apologize if this thought is blasphemous to Otto :)
allenchan
03-11-05, 12:57 PM Like any other multiplier in D&D, you don't get to multiply the multiplier.

So if FB gets you 4x PA, and Leap Attack gets you 3x, you end up with a total modifier of 6x PA. But don't stop there. Anything that multiplies your total damage (Spirited Charge, Valorous Weapon Enhancements) will double it /after/ PA.

So. If I have Spirited charge and Leap Attack, and a +1 Valorous Lance (Used two handed, of course) (PA penalty * 6)*4 is my payoff, just for Power Attack.

gah.

This has been discussed before, and by the RAW, FB doesnt multiple PA. It doesnt even make it 400%, it changes a static number to another static number.
Harry
03-11-05, 01:27 PM any other suggestions for a race of big barbarian with a large blugeoning weapon if those two aren't optimized?
IMHO one of the best races for a barbarian:
Feral Proto Anthropomorphic Beleen Whale (3HD, 1LA= ECL 4)
- Large size
- Rage
- Str +16 (not including rage)
- Hit Dice of Monstrous Humanoids (+3BAB)
- Pounce and all the Feral stuff

Proto Template is from Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn it gives you +4Str, no LA and rage if you have racial HD, only at a cost of losing special abilities and some mental ability reduction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SpartanMD 03-10-05, 11:18 AM	Creating a 10th level Barbarian character, and must decide between a Bugbear with a Large sized Warmace used with two hands (taking -2 penalty)and a Golliath who wields the Exotic Golliath Hammer (and has to take the Feat). I was planning on following the Power Attack tree, and definitely using Leap Attack. Which is better for optimization? Bugbear +4 STR +2 Dex +2 Con -2 Cha and 3 monster HD +3 Natural Armor Golliath +4 STR -2 Dex +2 Con may use Large weapons, access to cool racial substitutions such as mountain rage and ability to get 4/amatadine. (I can guess Otto's response :) ) ....at work so excuse any gaffs with the rules..... :rolleyes:
Lakom 03-10-05, 11:51 AM	Well definitly golliath..racial HD hurts soo much.
lokkesmadr 03-10-05, 11:55 AM	Monstrous humanoid hit dice aren't too bad for a melee character, really. You get +1 BAB per hit die and good saves in Reflex and Will.
carnivore 03-10-05, 12:29 PM	Not quite...........notice from the SRD: BUGBEARS AS CHARACTERS Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits. +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. Medium size. A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision out to 60 feet. Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1. Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot. Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats. +3 natural armor bonus. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. Favored Class: Rogue. Level adjustment +1. so a 10th lvl character Bugbear has: BAB +8(assuming all Barbarian lvls) saves FRW= +6/+5/+3 HD= 3d8+6d12 1oth lvl Barbarian Goliath BAB +9 saves FRW +6/+3/+3 HD= 9d12 :D
SpartanMD 03-10-05, 12:31 PM	any other suggestions for a race of big barbarian with a large blugeoning weapon if those two aren't optimized? I really like Leap Attack, as it's not unreasonable to have a 26 Str while raging with a large blugeoning weapon! 3d6 + 12 + 30! so a 10th lvl character Bugbear has: BAB +8(assuming all Barbarian lvls) saves FRW= +6/+5/+3 HD= 3d8+6d12 Worse hp (52 hp) as Con bonus is same, slighly better saves, in addition better dex, Worse BAB (which is an additional -2 worse due to using large Warmace with two hands), 4 Better AC (due to +3 Natural Armor and +2 Dex) Better Skills? minor Stealth 4 Feats (2 monster, 1 at 3rd Barb, 1 at 6th Barb) Power Attack Leap Attack ???wasn't there a feat to increase Natural Armor??? ??? 1oth lvl Barbarian Goliath BAB +9 saves FRW +6/+3/+3 HD= 9d12 Better HP (60hp), slightly worse saves, reflex even worse due to Dex Better BAB (but must take Exotic Feat for weapon), abiltiy to have reach thru Mountain Rage racial variant, ability to have minor fortification Worse AC, but ability to get 2/Admantine thru racial variant 4 Feats Power Attack Leap Attack Exotic Weapon (Golliath Warhammer) ??
lokkesmadr 03-10-05, 12:56 PM	Not quite...........notice SNIP Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid Ah.... Bugbears are just plain humanoids. My point remains valid, but unrelated to bugbears. Silly bugbears. any other suggestions for a race of big barbarian with a large blugeoning weapon if those two aren't optimized? Savage Species Half-Ogres are often a good choice. Anthropomorphic African Elephants are quite good too, though ECL 5 with LA +2 will hurt your hitpoints a bit.
carnivore 03-10-05, 01:00 PM	half ogres.....excellent idea :D
DM Denubis 03-10-05, 01:00 PM	Goliath, in my opinion, is just better. The bugbear levels are horrible for melee characters. And your damage, when power attacking for full, would be 1d12 + 54 + (Strength * 1.5). Don't forget that when leap attacking with a two handed weapon, you triple the power attack damage, not double it. Which is why a Frenzied Berserker could potentially power attack for a 1/12 ratio, or if he's a miunted charge type, a 1/36 ratio. Leap Attack really is a very powerful feat... But only terrible when paired with other multipliers.
Griff_Goodbeard 03-10-05, 01:01 PM	I'd go with goliath so you can grab Mountain Rage. 10' reach=sweet :D
Lakom 03-10-05, 01:07 PM	IIRC half ogre got nerfed in races of destiny..now it has LA+2 anyway I suggest two levels of soldier of light to take care of the problematic saves.
SpartanMD 03-10-05, 02:15 PM	And your damage, when power attacking for full, would be 1d12 + 54 + (Strength * 1.5). Leap Attack really is a very powerful feat... But only terrible when paired with other multipliers. How did you get +54? I get +45... With a str of 26, I would be using a large WarMace in two hands (3d6) + 15 (Str (1.5 x +10) )+ 30 (leap attack) =+45 Now this attack would be at BAB + 10 (str) +2 (charge) -5 (power attack) = BAB + 7 So with a Bugbear, using leap attack, + 16 to hit doing 3d6+45 (max 63) at -2 AC
Khazra Reborn 03-10-05, 03:09 PM	I suggest playing a goliath using a large maul 2-handed. Take stone blessed 3 (dwarf), hammer of moradin3 & EWM1 for 2.5 str to damage :eek: oh, whatever you decide, take monkey grip aswell :P
DM Denubis 03-10-05, 03:16 PM	How did you get +54? I get +45... With a str of 26, I would be using a large WarMace in two hands (3d6) + 15 (Str (1.5 x +10) )+ 30 (leap attack) =+45 Now this attack would be at BAB + 10 (str) +2 (charge) -5 (power attack) = BAB + 7 So with a Bugbear, using leap attack, + 16 to hit doing 3d6+45 (max 63) at -2 AC I was talking about the goliath. I apologize for not being clear. See, you'd have a +9 BAB. (9 * 2) * 3 yields 54. But I should've been more specific.
SpartanMD 03-10-05, 04:22 PM	I was talking about the goliath. I apologize for not being clear. See, you'd have a +9 BAB. (9 * 2) * 3 yields 54. But I should've been more specific. :confused: I'm confused...you're multiplying the BAB by 2 then tripling it? That's not for a Power attack, it's for one of those Greater Power attack type thing, no? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Otto the Bugbear 03-10-05, 07:23 PM	You're forgetting the most important reason to go with Bugbear: style. And floppy ears. ;) Seriously, looking at everything laid out like that, it'll really end up being a matter of personal preference. The hit points and +1 BAB helps make the goliath more attractive. The dex, natural armor and saves make the bugbear more attractive. You should also go with bugbear just to avoid my wrath. I can get pretty wrath-ish when you dis me. ;) I also tend to have a really big aversion to races that are created just to fill space in a supplement. Goliaths aren't as bad as raptorians :rolleyes:, I guess. I'm just strange that way. Cheers Otto :)
DM Denubis 03-10-05, 07:36 PM	:confused: I'm confused...you're multiplying the BAB by 2 then tripling it? That's not for a Power attack, it's for one of those Greater Power attack type thing, no? :confused: :confused: :confused: Leap Attack.
ancalimohtar 03-10-05, 07:57 PM	Two things. 1) Denubis, one of these days some kid in Idaho reading your posts is going to go ballistic and hunt you down for your tiny font size. There is truly no reason for you to do that. 2) Half-Ogre is LA+2, no racial HD, and is still extremely powerful. I gave one of my players the bright idea of playing the LA+1 SS version, and he sort of destroyed everything. The Goliath has Medium space and Medium reach, but the Half-Ogre has LARGE space and LARGE reach. Meaning, for that extra LA you have to pay, he's significantly more powerful. No size adjustment in the game is as significant as Medium => Large. The character increases his battlefield control area to 400% of the original--he threatens an area of NINE HUNDRED SQUARE FEET. Buy yourself Large and in Charge, Combat Reflexes, and pound away.
DM Denubis 03-10-05, 08:24 PM	Two things. 1) Denubis, one of these days some kid in Idaho reading your posts is going to go ballistic and hunt you down for your tiny font size. There is truly no reason for you to do that. Idaho? I hope he makes a Potato Powered Shotgun (You know I wish I knew the code for the trademark symbol.) and kills me with that. I mean, could there BE a more interesting way to die? Listen, man, it's just small font. And it's not even that small. If you can't read it, get your eyes checked, or change your resolution, eh?
neilthrun 03-10-05, 08:35 PM	Ogre isn't a bad choice. +10 strength, +4 con, +5 natural armor. An ogre barbarian has a land speed of 50. Not to mention making the jump checks for leap attack will be much easier as a large creature with such a large strength. The obvious draw backs are the bab and hd. +3 bab over 6 levels is harsh to a power attacking character early on. Although a huge great sword(monkey gripped) dealing 5d6 damage is nice. And of course as a large creature your free to enter into the warhulk prc. Personally I feel a bab of 13-16 is fine for a power attacking character assuming his strength can stay at 26+(which should be very easy with items, level boosts,class abilities, and racial modifiers) for most of combat. Other good choices are trolls(which doesnt leave much room for prcs or class levels), Orcs, or Centaurs.
Jeremymc 03-10-05, 10:23 PM	Gwaha. Warhulk always makes me laugh. A Spring attacking warhulk is just gross. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack. You could make an anthropomorphic Giant Frog Warhulk and destroy armies. Actually... I think I will!
Otto the Bugbear 03-10-05, 11:11 PM	Listen, man, it's just small font. And it's not even that small. If you can't read it, get your eyes checked, or change your resolution, eh? I explained this once before. People will start ignoring all your posts. That would be a shame considering the thought you put into most of them. (The only exception that I've seen is this ridiculous defense of font size=1 posts.) Your choice though. Be stubborn about it if you want. Nobody can force you to be reasonable. Cheers Otto :)
DM Denubis 03-10-05, 11:54 PM	Alright, if it really annoys people that much, I won't do it anymore... Damned bugbear and his logic... Always trying to take the shinies... :twitch:
Kuroi Kenshi 03-11-05, 12:58 AM	Yay! <3
Shandrakor 03-11-05, 04:14 AM	I also tend to have a really big aversion to races that are created just to fill space in a supplement. Goliaths aren't as bad as raptorians :rolleyes:, I guess. I'm just strange that way. I do too. However, since I saw the Goliath Barbarian with the big axe they're putting out in plastic mini format, I decided to throw one at my PCs. For you WILL buy all our hardcover supplements! I'm with you on the Raptorian issue -- any player that comes to my game with that book meets a King of Smack...or a discretionary lightning bolt. ;) Gwaha. Warhulk always makes me laugh. A Spring attacking warhulk is just gross. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack. LEAP - 360 degree attack. You could make an anthropomorphic Giant Frog Warhulk and destroy armies. Actually... I think I will! I think I'm going to get one of those myself...heh... Revenge for what those silly PCs did with my Rain of Frogs (sniffle). Sorry -- random DM anguish.
scrollreader 03-11-05, 08:05 AM	Like any other multiplier in D&D, you don't get to multiply the multiplier. So if FB gets you 4x PA, and Leap Attack gets you 3x, you end up with a total modifier of 6x PA. But don't stop there. Anything that multiplies your total damage (Spirited Charge, Valorous Weapon Enhancements) will double it /after/ PA. So. If I have Spirited charge and Leap Attack, and a +1 Valorous Lance (Used two handed, of course) (PA penalty * 6)*4 is my payoff, just for Power Attack.
SpartanMD 03-11-05, 12:19 PM	How about a 9th level human barbarian reincarnated into a Bugbear? Would all of the attribute modifiers apply? Would you re adjust con for all of the old levels? Just a thought. I apologize if this thought is blasphemous to Otto :)
allenchan 03-11-05, 12:57 PM	Like any other multiplier in D&D, you don't get to multiply the multiplier. So if FB gets you 4x PA, and Leap Attack gets you 3x, you end up with a total modifier of 6x PA. But don't stop there. Anything that multiplies your total damage (Spirited Charge, Valorous Weapon Enhancements) will double it /after/ PA. So. If I have Spirited charge and Leap Attack, and a +1 Valorous Lance (Used two handed, of course) (PA penalty * 6)*4 is my payoff, just for Power Attack. gah. This has been discussed before, and by the RAW, FB doesnt multiple PA. It doesnt even make it 400%, it changes a static number to another static number.
Harry 03-11-05, 01:27 PM	any other suggestions for a race of big barbarian with a large blugeoning weapon if those two aren't optimized? IMHO one of the best races for a barbarian: Feral Proto Anthropomorphic Beleen Whale (3HD, 1LA= ECL 4) - Large size - Rage - Str +16 (not including rage) - Hit Dice of Monstrous Humanoids (+3BAB) - Pounce and all the Feral stuff Proto Template is from Dragonlance Bestiary of Krynn it gives you +4Str, no LA and rage if you have racial HD, only at a cost of losing special abilities and some mental ability reduction.