Bard 11 versus Bard 10/Seeker 1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard 11 versus Bard 10/Seeker 1 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zilvar
06-20-05, 10:01 AM I'm torn, truely.

I am playing the party face-man in an oversized (7-man) group and we've just hit level 11. I've been planning on taking Seeker of the Song for my 11th level, but I hadn't realized how many of the bard's special abilities I'd be giving up in order to branch out the bardic music.

I'm new to bards, this being my first, and I'm comfortably aware of just how powerful the class can be (failing the save against fascinate is nearly a given with a good bard). I haven't played, or seen, a Seeker of the Song in practice, though. Is the class good enough to compensate for all of the bardic goodies that you give up? 2 skill points, a good save, bardic knowledge advancement, spellcaster advancement, and standard bardic music advancement seems to be a steep price to pay for getting 18 or so new songs.

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
sCRuLooSe
06-20-05, 11:15 AM The seeker is basicaly a wannabe warmage with fewer and weaker damaging effects. For optimization purposes, the seeker is not. Most of your "new songs" are the same song with a different element attached, growing in power each level. The same concept can be made with the resist energy spell and any orb spell with the elemental substitution feat. 2 spells duplicate 10 of your songs. Moreover you will only have 20 uses of those songs (less any bardic music you do use plus 4 for extra music feat). It truly is not worth the loss of the upper level bard songs, the skill points, and the spell progression.

That said, if you can persuade the DM to allow the spell effecting song to not be mind effecting and get the dispel harmony to have a cap of +20 instead of +10, the seeker may be worthwhile to take as a mage killer. If you cannot get the DM to make this modification, you gain 2 other nearly useless songs at high levels.

If you have the prerequisites, the chord makes a much better option than the seeker for designing a blaster type character, and makes avaiable a couple of new songs. Since you are a face character, the virtuoso is also a decent choice.

Oooh peanuts.
Zilvar
06-20-05, 11:54 AM Ouch.

Seeker == owned.

How about taking two levels of the class for the double song ability?
sCRuLooSe
06-20-05, 09:52 PM That is better although still not great. The loss of 2 caster levels and a few skills will still hurt (not to mention slower progression of the normal bardic song). In exchange you can mnaintain two bardic songs at the same time. Which 2 though. The loss might be worth it but only in one of two conditions

1) Maintaining your songs continuously (and thus attracting attention) is an option

2) You virtually never have the extra round it takes to start up a new song or combats regularly last 6+ rounds.

Even then ask yourself three questions.

1) Did I take any bardic buffing spells with long durations?

Remember, spells like good hope have decent durations that may overwrite effects such as inspire courage. Such spells make singing two songs less worthwhile.

2) What 2nd bardic music effect do I consider so important that I need to be able to activate it?

Both inspire heroics and inspire greatness only effect a few targets at best and may not be worth the loss. If you are playing a low level game or feel the benefits are limited, combined song is less worthwhile.

3) Will my party be immune to mind-affecting powers?

If the answer is yes and a local sorcerer casts mind blank on your party at the beginning of each day, do not bother gaining combine song; the benefits are not worth anything.

An option that is probably more optimal for gaining combined song is 5 levels of War Chanter. You will lose 5 levels of bardic casting, 2 skill points per level, good saves in both ref and will, and your typical bardic music progression. In return, you boost your BAB up to 16, make up some of your poor fort save, get slightly better hp, and gain one decent song and one fairly powerful war song. Inspire recklesness is rather powerful for a front line bard with arcane strike and power attack. Mind, the warchanter's true power is in their 10th level power in conjunction with a summoner or army (leadership feat maybe). However, straight bard is probably better from an optimized standpoint if you can stand losing the combined song ability. Optionally, a 1 level dip in rogue (for trapmonkey goodness), ninja (with ascetic mage to add your Cha to AC), or Marshall (Cha to initiative and Dex skills) may be well worth it.

Oh, and sublime chord 2/Virtuoso 8 is still probably the most optimnized choice (9th level arcane spellcasting=good).

Good luck
cvazi
06-23-05, 12:34 PM The seeker turns the bard away from a social character and more into an offensive powerhouse.

The seeker is basicaly a wannabe warmage with fewer and weaker damaging effects. For optimization purposes, the seeker is not. Most of your "new songs" are the same song with a different element attached, growing in power each level. The same concept can be made with the resist energy spell and any orb spell with the elemental substitution feat. 2 spells duplicate 10 of your songs. Moreover you will only have 20 uses of those songs (less any bardic music you do use plus 4 for extra music feat). It truly is not worth the loss of the upper level bard songs, the skill points, and the spell progression.

Seeker kicks warmage in the teeth! Sure they only have TWENTY uses of thier highest level ability. That would include a 10d6 4 jump chain lightning (lvl 4?5?), a 15d6 sonic attack (lvl 9) and a 10d6 acid attack THAT DOES ANOTHER 10D6 THE NEXT ROUND (lvl 7). Did I forget to mention that they are all swift actions? Oh and one more thing, they are all supernatural abilities which are therefore no affected by SR or spell immunity. Point #3, they have no saves either-but they do require a touch attack. The only upper level bard song worth anything is the mass charm. Most of the spells you lose are mind affecting. As for healing ability, you can use a bardic music slot to heal a perform check worth of HP's- which is much better than a cure critical.

That said, if you can persuade the DM to allow the spell effecting song to not be mind effecting and get the dispel harmony to have a cap of +20 instead of +10, the seeker may be worthwhile to take as a mage killer. If you cannot get the DM to make this modification, you gain 2 other nearly useless songs at high levels.

There is no limit to you +bonus. And you do that as a swift action.
sCRuLooSe
06-23-05, 08:27 PM The seeker turns the bard away from a social character and more into an offensive powerhouse.

Have you read some of the recent bard builds around here. Combine Snowflake wardance with arcane strike, for example. Bards are already offensive powerhouses; inspire courage alone lets each of your companions hit up to 20% more often.

Seeker kicks warmage in the teeth! Sure they only have TWENTY uses of thier highest level ability. That would include a 10d6 4 jump chain lightning (lvl 4?5?), a 15d6 sonic attack (lvl 9) and a 10d6 acid attack THAT DOES ANOTHER 10D6 THE NEXT ROUND (lvl 7).

Yawn 20d6 damage at level 17, 15d6 damage at 19th. Come on, this is the optimization board. Fireball works better than the jump chain lightning (more creatures affected). The 20d6 alone can be duplicated by a repeating fireball spell by a 11th level wizard (12th level warmage) and it effects an area. The fireballs are subject to SR and saves but are still more likely to do more damage in total than the seeker is and I am not even using some of the rarer spells.

Did I forget to mention that they are all swift actions?

If you have the seeker song the refrain is attached to active, yes it is swift. That is a big if. Activating the normal song requires the standard action, and wastes one of those precious 20 bardic musics. This is a bonus to seeker songs though, if you plan on going gish.

Oh and one more thing, they are all supernatural abilities which are therefore no affected by SR or spell immunity. Point #3, they have no saves either-but they do require a touch attack.

In return, you need that touch and cannot apply metamagic. This is nice, but hardly makes the prestige class.

The only upper level bard song worth anything is the mass charm. Most of the spells you lose are mind affecting.

True, upper bardic spells are nowhere near as explosive. But of the things you can do with them. (Find the path, heroes feast, permanent image, greater shout, and sympathetic vibration are a couple of decent non-mind affecting 6th level bard spells) At the least the bard has more spells available both known and castable. This adds majorly to flexibility. Add in extra skill points, a better inspire courage (which is major), inspire greatness, a feat that does not need to be wasted for prerequisites, a BAB 1 higher, and better saves. Hmm, for a bard build, I would rather take pure bard. But that is noth the point. The point is that there are more optimized ways to make what is essentially explosion expert.

As for healing ability, you can use a bardic music slot to heal a perform check worth of HP's- which is much better than a cure critical. Threis no limit to you +bonus. And you do that as a swift action.

Hmm, 23 ranks of perform, say a +10 charisma modifier (high), +3 from a circlet of persuasion, +3 from a cloak of charisma +6, +2 from a masterwork instrument. Total heaing 41 damage to a person you touch as a swift action. Or, mass cure light wounds for 24.5(avg) damage to your entire party at range. Sounds like the bard heals more damage if they catch two or more party members.

In addition, in most encounters, the standard action it takes to activate the non-refrain part of the song of life, the move equivalent to touch the friend, and the swift action to activate the refrain takes more than the standard action the bard needs to use to cast mass cure light wounds. Therefore the seeker only wins on speed if he already had the song of life running. The seeker can only have two songs up at one time, was the song of life one of the two.

Overall, IMHO an optimized warmage can do a better job blowing things up, and with the right prestige classes (contemplative 1) can heal better. What does the seeker have to offer a party that is not easily duplicated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zilvar 06-20-05, 10:01 AM	I'm torn, truely. I am playing the party face-man in an oversized (7-man) group and we've just hit level 11. I've been planning on taking Seeker of the Song for my 11th level, but I hadn't realized how many of the bard's special abilities I'd be giving up in order to branch out the bardic music. I'm new to bards, this being my first, and I'm comfortably aware of just how powerful the class can be (failing the save against fascinate is nearly a given with a good bard). I haven't played, or seen, a Seeker of the Song in practice, though. Is the class good enough to compensate for all of the bardic goodies that you give up? 2 skill points, a good save, bardic knowledge advancement, spellcaster advancement, and standard bardic music advancement seems to be a steep price to pay for getting 18 or so new songs. Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
sCRuLooSe 06-20-05, 11:15 AM	The seeker is basicaly a wannabe warmage with fewer and weaker damaging effects. For optimization purposes, the seeker is not. Most of your "new songs" are the same song with a different element attached, growing in power each level. The same concept can be made with the resist energy spell and any orb spell with the elemental substitution feat. 2 spells duplicate 10 of your songs. Moreover you will only have 20 uses of those songs (less any bardic music you do use plus 4 for extra music feat). It truly is not worth the loss of the upper level bard songs, the skill points, and the spell progression. That said, if you can persuade the DM to allow the spell effecting song to not be mind effecting and get the dispel harmony to have a cap of +20 instead of +10, the seeker may be worthwhile to take as a mage killer. If you cannot get the DM to make this modification, you gain 2 other nearly useless songs at high levels. If you have the prerequisites, the chord makes a much better option than the seeker for designing a blaster type character, and makes avaiable a couple of new songs. Since you are a face character, the virtuoso is also a decent choice. Oooh peanuts.
Zilvar 06-20-05, 11:54 AM	Ouch. Seeker == owned. How about taking two levels of the class for the double song ability?
sCRuLooSe 06-20-05, 09:52 PM	That is better although still not great. The loss of 2 caster levels and a few skills will still hurt (not to mention slower progression of the normal bardic song). In exchange you can mnaintain two bardic songs at the same time. Which 2 though. The loss might be worth it but only in one of two conditions 1) Maintaining your songs continuously (and thus attracting attention) is an option 2) You virtually never have the extra round it takes to start up a new song or combats regularly last 6+ rounds. Even then ask yourself three questions. 1) Did I take any bardic buffing spells with long durations? Remember, spells like good hope have decent durations that may overwrite effects such as inspire courage. Such spells make singing two songs less worthwhile. 2) What 2nd bardic music effect do I consider so important that I need to be able to activate it? Both inspire heroics and inspire greatness only effect a few targets at best and may not be worth the loss. If you are playing a low level game or feel the benefits are limited, combined song is less worthwhile. 3) Will my party be immune to mind-affecting powers? If the answer is yes and a local sorcerer casts mind blank on your party at the beginning of each day, do not bother gaining combine song; the benefits are not worth anything. An option that is probably more optimal for gaining combined song is 5 levels of War Chanter. You will lose 5 levels of bardic casting, 2 skill points per level, good saves in both ref and will, and your typical bardic music progression. In return, you boost your BAB up to 16, make up some of your poor fort save, get slightly better hp, and gain one decent song and one fairly powerful war song. Inspire recklesness is rather powerful for a front line bard with arcane strike and power attack. Mind, the warchanter's true power is in their 10th level power in conjunction with a summoner or army (leadership feat maybe). However, straight bard is probably better from an optimized standpoint if you can stand losing the combined song ability. Optionally, a 1 level dip in rogue (for trapmonkey goodness), ninja (with ascetic mage to add your Cha to AC), or Marshall (Cha to initiative and Dex skills) may be well worth it. Oh, and sublime chord 2/Virtuoso 8 is still probably the most optimnized choice (9th level arcane spellcasting=good). Good luck
cvazi 06-23-05, 12:34 PM	The seeker turns the bard away from a social character and more into an offensive powerhouse. The seeker is basicaly a wannabe warmage with fewer and weaker damaging effects. For optimization purposes, the seeker is not. Most of your "new songs" are the same song with a different element attached, growing in power each level. The same concept can be made with the resist energy spell and any orb spell with the elemental substitution feat. 2 spells duplicate 10 of your songs. Moreover you will only have 20 uses of those songs (less any bardic music you do use plus 4 for extra music feat). It truly is not worth the loss of the upper level bard songs, the skill points, and the spell progression. Seeker kicks warmage in the teeth! Sure they only have TWENTY uses of thier highest level ability. That would include a 10d6 4 jump chain lightning (lvl 4?5?), a 15d6 sonic attack (lvl 9) and a 10d6 acid attack THAT DOES ANOTHER 10D6 THE NEXT ROUND (lvl 7). Did I forget to mention that they are all swift actions? Oh and one more thing, they are all supernatural abilities which are therefore no affected by SR or spell immunity. Point #3, they have no saves either-but they do require a touch attack. The only upper level bard song worth anything is the mass charm. Most of the spells you lose are mind affecting. As for healing ability, you can use a bardic music slot to heal a perform check worth of HP's- which is much better than a cure critical. That said, if you can persuade the DM to allow the spell effecting song to not be mind effecting and get the dispel harmony to have a cap of +20 instead of +10, the seeker may be worthwhile to take as a mage killer. If you cannot get the DM to make this modification, you gain 2 other nearly useless songs at high levels. There is no limit to you +bonus. And you do that as a swift action.
sCRuLooSe 06-23-05, 08:27 PM	The seeker turns the bard away from a social character and more into an offensive powerhouse. Have you read some of the recent bard builds around here. Combine Snowflake wardance with arcane strike, for example. Bards are already offensive powerhouses; inspire courage alone lets each of your companions hit up to 20% more often. Seeker kicks warmage in the teeth! Sure they only have TWENTY uses of thier highest level ability. That would include a 10d6 4 jump chain lightning (lvl 4?5?), a 15d6 sonic attack (lvl 9) and a 10d6 acid attack THAT DOES ANOTHER 10D6 THE NEXT ROUND (lvl 7). Yawn 20d6 damage at level 17, 15d6 damage at 19th. Come on, this is the optimization board. Fireball works better than the jump chain lightning (more creatures affected). The 20d6 alone can be duplicated by a repeating fireball spell by a 11th level wizard (12th level warmage) and it effects an area. The fireballs are subject to SR and saves but are still more likely to do more damage in total than the seeker is and I am not even using some of the rarer spells. Did I forget to mention that they are all swift actions? If you have the seeker song the refrain is attached to active, yes it is swift. That is a big if. Activating the normal song requires the standard action, and wastes one of those precious 20 bardic musics. This is a bonus to seeker songs though, if you plan on going gish. Oh and one more thing, they are all supernatural abilities which are therefore no affected by SR or spell immunity. Point #3, they have no saves either-but they do require a touch attack. In return, you need that touch and cannot apply metamagic. This is nice, but hardly makes the prestige class. The only upper level bard song worth anything is the mass charm. Most of the spells you lose are mind affecting. True, upper bardic spells are nowhere near as explosive. But of the things you can do with them. (Find the path, heroes feast, permanent image, greater shout, and sympathetic vibration are a couple of decent non-mind affecting 6th level bard spells) At the least the bard has more spells available both known and castable. This adds majorly to flexibility. Add in extra skill points, a better inspire courage (which is major), inspire greatness, a feat that does not need to be wasted for prerequisites, a BAB 1 higher, and better saves. Hmm, for a bard build, I would rather take pure bard. But that is noth the point. The point is that there are more optimized ways to make what is essentially explosion expert. As for healing ability, you can use a bardic music slot to heal a perform check worth of HP's- which is much better than a cure critical. Threis no limit to you +bonus. And you do that as a swift action. Hmm, 23 ranks of perform, say a +10 charisma modifier (high), +3 from a circlet of persuasion, +3 from a cloak of charisma +6, +2 from a masterwork instrument. Total heaing 41 damage to a person you touch as a swift action. Or, mass cure light wounds for 24.5(avg) damage to your entire party at range. Sounds like the bard heals more damage if they catch two or more party members. In addition, in most encounters, the standard action it takes to activate the non-refrain part of the song of life, the move equivalent to touch the friend, and the swift action to activate the refrain takes more than the standard action the bard needs to use to cast mass cure light wounds. Therefore the seeker only wins on speed if he already had the song of life running. The seeker can only have two songs up at one time, was the song of life one of the two. Overall, IMHO an optimized warmage can do a better job blowing things up, and with the right prestige classes (contemplative 1) can heal better. What does the seeker have to offer a party that is not easily duplicated.