Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mkred23 10-21-03, 11:21 AM	Need some help with a Bard / Rogue. we are level 7 a few xp from 8th. I wanted to try the new bard which looks much better than the 3.0... But our party did not have a rogue so I had/have to take at least one rank in rogue to get the skill useage of traps and seach. Because of this I am also in the lead most of the time.. So I need some combat ability. The restrictions are the core books... PHB, DMG, MM, and the supppliments..ie song and silence. defeneders ect from 3.0... I got a really good list of eq that boosted my ac to 25. But feats and other build Ideas would be GREATLY appreciated. Mike
Grim Sage 10-21-03, 12:56 PM	The bard/rogue i'm currently playing is going Rogue 3 / Bard 7/ Arcane Trickster 10; taking rogue as 1st, 5th and 10th lvls. For feats one might consider PBS/ Rapid Shot (you don't want to go melee with d6 and d4 HD), but if you insist on going into close combat, the Arcane Strike feat (Dragon #310) might be something to consider, especially against undead, constructs and other such creatures, where your charms don't work. As for survivability; I prefer charming opponents into defending me; after all that's what bards are good at.
mkred23 10-21-03, 01:09 PM	I was thinking more mind bender or Dragon deciple than trickster...though thy do look fun as heck...
Mommy was an Orc 10-21-03, 01:48 PM	Who else is in your party?(reason being - why is your bard being expected to be both Trap Disarmer and Front-line Fighter)
mkred23 10-21-03, 01:52 PM	We have 2 rangers 1 cleric of st Culthrth(sp sothing like that). A druid. and a monk..Then my Bard/rogue very un balaced..but that what they wanted to play...
Mommy was an Orc 10-21-03, 01:56 PM	Okay. You want as much bard song as humanly possible as well as making sure to get haste as a spell choice. In a party such as that, the Bard is inhuman in 3.5. I'd go Rogue 4/Bard 16, putting off the Rogue levels as much as possible. With the spell haste, doing Bard Song Inspire Courage/Greatness, you can literally double the damage inflicted by the Rangers and Monk. Another thing to try is to point out how one of the Rangers could pick up an eventual 4 levels of Rogue - it isn't a bad investment, particularly when you promise that Ranger he'll be the first recipient of Inspire Greatness always... Originally posted by mkred23 We have 2 rangers 1 cleric of st Culthrth(sp sothing like that). A druid. and a monk.. very un balaced..but that what they wanted to play...
Mommy was an Orc 10-21-03, 02:22 PM	Here's the basic math: You start off with the spell Haste in pretty much every combat - this gives everyone a +1 to hit, +1 to AC, and gives each of the Rangers/Monks an extra full base attack. A Rogue 2/Ranger 8 at level 10(as an example) is only getting +7/+7/+2/+2 - now he gets +9/+7/+7/+2/+2. This also improves the abilities of the Druid's animal companion and if the either the Cleric/Druid decide to wade into combat or use touch attacks. Then do Inspire Courage - this gives everyone an additional +2 to hit/damage at 8th level. That catapults that to +11/+9/+9/+4/+4 Then Inspire Greatness on that Ranger, putting him up to +13/+11/+11/+6/+6. His worst attacks are almost as good as his original attacks. He's also got an additional +2d10+con bonus*2 hp, meaning he actually will have more hit points by round 3 than he would had he just been a pure Ranger. Just ask the Rangers which they'd rather have: you worrying about fighting in the first rounds, with them at +8/+8/+3/+3 or them kicking butt with +13/+11/+11/+6/+6 with bonus movement, AC, and damage? It should be no contest.
mkred23 10-22-03, 11:37 AM	That should be a no brainer...as of right now I have 5 levels bard 1 rogue...and a level to use.. I was thinking rogue for evasion.. but bard gives a few more spells... I have a natural cha of 18 and a temp of 23 from point raise and cloak of cha.... giving me a +6 modifier...love the DC hike... So what do ya think rogue for evation or more music and spells?
rilem 10-22-03, 12:08 PM	Mommy was an Orc is spot-on; you have a real melee-heavy group and you should be focusing on making them better, which means lots of bardsong levels. Don't bother with Dragon Disciple; your party scarcely needs another swing-and-chop guy. That said, you might be best served by taking Rogue2 now; you don't have the hit points the rest of the party does, so you'll be less able to handle reflex-save spells from opponents. Evasion could be a big help. After that, I wouldn't touch another rogue level until you get inspire greatness.
mkred23 10-22-03, 12:27 PM	Sounds good to me the more I read the better I like the bonuses to the hack and slashers and the images and illusions for the rogue side.. Mike
Mommy was an Orc 10-22-03, 03:59 PM	I'd really try to get one of those Rangers to pick up a level(s) in Rogue, so as to be able to hold off getting evasion until at least 11th level. Sure, the thing's helpful, but if you're hanging back in combat, you're no worse off than an ordinary wizard - and your Reflex saves/hp are substantially better. Sneak attack damage is one of the most effective ways to increase the damage done by TWF - with 3 levels of Rogue, they sacrifice one BAB in exchange for +7 damage. Haste makes it a lot easier to move into flanking position. Uncanny Dodge eventually solves the big problem Rangers have - being surprised and losing their dex bonuses while wearing light armor. To top it off, I forgot to add in the +1 to hit from Haste. That's +8/+8/+3/+3 vs +14/+12/+12/+7/+7(while including the -1 from picking up levels in Rogue) I'm not saying you shouldn't eventually pick it up, but the value added when you're near doubling the damage output of the entire party(things die real fast) vs the benefits of evasion(things which could have been dead keep casting spells) is pretty extreme. There are situations where I would recommend going for the Rogue level a lot faster, but the classes which benefit most from 3.5 Bardsong/Haste are Rangers and Monks... (edit: and you're a few experience points away from the 1st main piece of the puzzle - haste, a level + a few exp from +2 from Inspire Courage, and 2 levels + a few exp from Inspire Greatness) Originally posted by mkred23 Sounds good to me the more I read the better I like the bonuses to the hack and slashers and the images and illusions for the rogue side.. Mike