Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Snow Savant 06-22-03, 06:17 PM	Let's say you wanted to play a Bard. And you wanted to make him as potent magically as any other spellcaster. You could care less about his ability to melee or shoot arrows, hence you don't want Holy Liberator levels in his build. His magical emphasis needs to focus on Spells and/or Bard Song. Preferably both, but builds that isolate 1 of the 2 options are welcome also. So if you end up with a Bard with a BAB of +9, that's fine, as long as his spells/songs are powerhouse strong or you have access to a ton of spells. Boosting DC's are important here as well. BTW, all of my *spellcasting* Bard builds try to integrate the wonderful Talfirian Spellsong feat from Pg. 170 of the RoF book. Hence, you need to be a Tethyrian Human and you need the Heighten Spell feat as a pre-requisite. I also recommend Spell Focus (Enchantment & Illusion are the best), GSF, SP, & GSP feats when you can get them. Even in light of the SF/GSF nerfing in 3.5. ........................................ .................... Bard5 / SpellSinger2 / Virtuoso9 / Fatespinner2 / DivineOracle1 / HornedHarbinger1 6th Level Bard Spells (18th Level Spellcasting), 16 Bard Song Uses. Spin helps boost the low DC of "Spell Song" spells. Your Bard spell availability is amazing ... includes ALL the Bard Enchantment spells ("Spell Song"), 6 spells from the Divination PrD, & another 6 spells from the Death Domain (read the Horned Harbinger fine print). You have access to all 9 Virtuoso exclusive Bard songs and you are Epic-ready. Because of HH, you are an evil Bard. :devil: Bard5 / Spellsinger3 / ShadowAdept9 / Fatespinner2 / BloodMagus1 6th Level Bard Spells (19th Level Spellcasting), 8 Bard Song Uses. You get the Spin/SpellSong combo mentioned above. You also get +3 Spell Power (DC +3) with Ill/Ench/Necro spells and Blood Component (DC +1) ... all perfect in combo with Talfirian Song, Spin, Spell Focus, etc. Bard6 / SpellSinger3 / Mindbender1 / UrPriest2 / MysticTheurge8 6th Level Bard Spells (18th Level Spellcasting), 9 Bard Song Uses, 9th Level Ur-Priest Spells (19th Level Spellcasting). I envision this Bard to be a Master Summoner. Using Summon Monster spells 6 thru 9, then using Bard Song & Spells to buff the beasties & his party. The Mindbender level was added to facilitate silent communication between him and the summonees. CHA & WIS are key and need to both be levelled up ... WIS 19 is important. Bard9 / NarDemonbinder1 / Virtuoso10 5th Level Bard Spells (13th Level Spellcasting), 19 Bard Song Uses, 8th Level Nar Demonbinder Spells (20th Level Spellcasting). ND can be achieved after going Bard9/Virt1 (with a CHA of 17+). Virt adds to Bard levels once ND gets 6 extra slots. All 3 clases are CHA-reliant! Bard9 / Ur-Priest2 / NarDemonbinder1 / MysticTheurge8 4th Level Bard Spells (11th Level Spellcasting), 9 Bard Song Uses, 8th Level Nar Demonbinder Spells (19th Level Spellcasting), 9th Level Ur-Priest Spells (18th Level Spellcasting). Tons of spells while still retaining a viable Bard Song capability. CHA & WIS are key and need to both be levelled up to 18 and 19 respectively. MT adds to both ND & Bard levels. To avoid the conundrum debacle of determining SC levels in a build with both ND & UP, I chose Bard as the ND additional spellcaster, then chose the ND result as the UP additional spellcaster. Bard10 / MageArcaneOrder4 / SpellSinger1 / FateSpinner2 / DivineOracle1 / SacredExorcist1 / HornedHarbinger1 6th Level Bard Spells (18th Level Spellcasting), 11 Bard Song Uses. Spell Pool II (up to 6th level spells), 3 Domains (2 of them are Prestige), & Spell Song give you unprecendented access to spells across the arcane spectrum and a little dabble in the divine. Your Bardic peers will be jealous. Bard5 / SpellSinger2 / Virtuoso4 / Heartwarder9 6th Level Bard Spells (20th Level Spellcasting), 20 Bard Song Uses. Your CHA Mod will be spectacular. Bard Song is better than a straight Bard-20 due to the added Songs and the SS's enhancements. Bard7 / DivineOracle6 / Loremaster7 6th Level Bard Spells (20th Level Spellcasting), 13 Bard Song Uses. DO levels get you a minimum of 5 Divination spells for LM's requirements. You chose another 1 of your own accord. Your Bard Lore ability is very strong, especially combined with DO's bonuses to Divinations. INT & CHA are both important stats here. Bard7 / HarperMage3 / Loremaster10 6th Level Bard Spells (20th Level Spellcasting), 17 Bard Song Uses. Wow ... 20 levels of Bard Lore. A variant swaps 3 levels of LM for 3 of Divine Oracle. But this one has you ready for Epic levels and you are a warehouse of knowledge. Bard11 / Demonologist9 4th Level Bard Spells (11th Level Spellcasting), 20 Bard Song Uses, 4th Level Demo Spells (9th Level Spellcasting). This is a dedicated Chaotic Evil Summoner of Demons. With your high CHA, you can cast a bunch of Summon Monster 7 & 8 spells ... and that's impressive. All due to Mastery of Summons +4. Both your classes are reliant on CHA. Lots of Demonologist goodies to boot. Grab a few Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell (Lesser) for a cheap 5,400 GP each to cast your SM 1 through 3 spells. When manifest, those spells "come out" as SM 5 through 8 ... but the Rods don't know that. :smirk: ******* Well, that's all for now. If you have a good Spellcasting Bard build, please post! Also, comments & feedback are welcome. XO, Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell 06-22-03, 06:25 PM	"Red Bard of Enchantment" Bard 10/Master Alchemist 5/Bard 11-15 Make Heightened x4, Extended Potions of Love (Charm Person potions)! (this will increase the DC and the duration) Also, Potion of Heightened x4 Suggestion can get you into a lot of private parties/clubs. Feats to take: Brew Potions, Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Leadership (and have a lot of Expert Followers), anything to increase the DC of enchantment spells (Spell Focus (Enchantment) ). Too bad there isn't a Red Bard of Thay. :devil: Potions allow the Bard to prepare special spells in advance, but other spells can be done on the fly. Not everything has to settled with a Sword. The Cohort should have levels of Devoted Defender and have Chariot Feats Jewelery: Lots of Platium. Lots of glaudy rings. And Puffy fur coats. The cane should be a concealed rapier, with a huge ruby in the hilt. An alternative to a sword/cane, you could use a magic staff. Spells: Focus on Enchantments (Charm, Hold, Enthrall, Dominate...) and spells to get out of dodge fast (Expeditous Retreat, Shield, Mislead, Displacement, Alter Self, Fly, Dimensional Door, Mirror Image...). Sometimes they make their saves... Skills: Bluff, Perform, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Craft (Alchemy) (or Alchemy in 3.0), Tumble, Use Magic Device (Wands, staffs...), Disguise. Fun combos: Bluff and Disguise with Alter Self. "I think he went that way!"
samoosa691 06-22-03, 06:25 PM	it never ends eh snow? these are just great... I was just thinking that maybe the bard shouldn't have any healing spells, since she's an arcane caster..... but that's just my opinion how do you come up with this stuff?
MikeN 06-22-03, 06:29 PM	LordShade modified one of my builds to make it semi-bardic: Shugenja4/Sorcerer2/Virtuoso2/Mystic Wanderer1/Mystic Theurge10/Contemplative1 My original build was just the same but I didn't think to include Versatile or Cosmopolitan for the perform skill and then two levels of Virtuoso.
Snow Savant 06-22-03, 06:55 PM	Thanks, Samoosa. Bards are so badly beat up in the other forums that it is just nice to see them shining in the spotlight. Archery Bards and Bard/Holy Liberator hybrids are very popular as of late ... and very effective to boot. I just wanted to see the Singing & Spellslinging Bard get their due. And they are the best core class to deal with those multitudes of PrC's like Pale Master & Acolyte of the Skin whose spellcaster progression is every other level. I did not include those 2 PrC's because they both are not powerful spellcaster ... their powers are more based on physical attributes and non-spellcasting goodies. *** MikeN, You need the following 2 feats to really make that build strong in Bard Song: Cosmopolitan: Perform Extra Bard Music At least you will then have 7 uses of Bard Song (instead of 3 from Virt & MW) a day. More than enough to cover your average 3 combat encounters per day. Your build is very cool too! BTW, I have not seen LordShade lately since the move. Has anybody? Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell 06-22-03, 07:13 PM	You're just jealous that you didn't think of it first. :D And it is an interesting take on spellcasting... It was idea I was tossing around for a while... and after seeing the Potion of Love (and its pathetic save DC) I had to figure out how to raise it (and Master Alchemist proved just the way!) So a Master Alchemist 5 can make 3 potions a day of up to 6th level!
Snow Savant 06-22-03, 07:40 PM	BTW, I know Bard20 is a possible variant as well ... which is all fine and good. So if you have an interesting Bard20 build with uncommonly good spell selection & feat synergy, that will be welcome too. Snow :cloud9:
JosephKell 06-22-03, 08:07 PM	You are right, I will edit my post to conform to the code of conduct.
not-a-ninja 06-22-03, 08:27 PM	hmm... snow, how about some metamagic silliness... brd7/harper mage3/incantatrix10 also, due to energy substitution working to change sonic subtype spells to electricity, here's some weirdness... brd7/harper mage3/elemental savant10 you'd have to use the splat books and frcs to have enough damaging spells in time. it's not the most powerful character, but it is different. or how about... brd7/shadow adept3/mindbender10 okay, okay, so none of these are terribly inspired. i just got off work, and i'm tired. word.
Chosen of Shar 06-22-03, 11:35 PM	Bard6 / SpellSinger3 / Mindbender1 / UrPriest2 / MysticTheurge8 6th Level Bard Spells (18th Level Spellcasting), 9 Bard Song Uses, 9th Level Ur-Priest Spells (19th Level Spellcasting). Ur-Priest caster level is 15, with access to 9th level cleric spells with no domains. UrP2 + MyT8 + 1/2(Brd6 + Spe3 + Min1) = 15th level (Ur-Priest) Bard9 / NarDemonbinder1 / Virtuoso10 5th Level Bard Spells (13th Level Spellcasting), 19 Bard Song Uses, 8th Level Nar Demonbinder Spells (20th Level Spellcasting). ND can be achieved after going Bard9/Virt1 (with a CHA of 17+) Nar-Demonbinder caster level is 17, with access to a limited selection of 4th through 8th level arcane spells. Nar1 + Vir6 + Bar9 = 17th level (Nar-Demonbinder) Bard9 / Ur-Priest2 / NarDemonbinder1 / MysticTheurge8 4th Level Bard Spells (11th Level Spellcasting), 9 Bard Song Uses, 8th Level Nar Demonbinder Spells (19th Level Spellcasting), 9th Level Ur-Priest Spells (18th Level Spellcasting). Ur-Priest caster level is 15, with access to 9th level cleric spells with no domains. Nar-Demonbinder caster level is 16, with access to a limited selection of 4th through 8th level arcane spells. UrP2 + MyT8 + 1/2(Bar9 + Nar1) = 15th level (Ur-Priest) Nar1 + MyT6 + Bar9 = 16th level (Nar-Demonbinder) And the rest look ok... :)
LordShade 06-23-03, 12:06 AM	Under the current rules, I don't see why you would actually WANT to be a bard and focus on magic. I think it's much better to be a sorcerer at your core and just pick up bard-type PrCs. You'll act like a bard, look like a bard, sing like a bard (with virtuoso), but have the kick-ass spells of a sorcerer. A while back we talked about some Heartwarder builds. Those characters had the magic power of a sorcerer (19 levels of casting) as well as strong musical and interpersonal abilities. They were essentially 2-for-1 deals, able to fill in as an arcane spellcaster as well as a bard. Would you rather be a bardic sorcerer, or be a magical bard? Your special abilities are very similar, your attacking is similar, except you can use bard music a few extra times a day, and they can cast 7th, 8th and 9th level spells. Which do you think is more useful to a party? I think with any character you need to stick to your strengths. The bard wasn't meant to be a core caster and will never be one. You're trying to do something the class wasn't built for - focusing exclusively on one ability, that even when maxed, is still subpar compared to other characters with a similar focus. The strength of the bard is mixing music, fighting, and spellcasting into a versatile whole. You can't afford to neglect 1/3rd of your character's abilities when the tradeoff doesn't give you enough of a power boost to make up for that 1/3rd. The analogy is like being a thief with heavy armor and a bastard sword. Sure, with enough PrCs you could be good at it, but why not be a fighter?
LordShade 06-23-03, 12:11 AM	Thanks for your concern Snow :) I didn't realize the boards had moved for a while. After about 4 days of not being able to post ("where are the new topic and reply to topic buttons? something must be wrong with my web browser") and then realizing that nobody else had posted, I figured out that the boards were locked. I made a halfhearted attempt to find minmax under the D&D boards, but didn't see anything, so I gave up. I tried again today but looked around more thoroughly, and found it under d20. So basically, it boils down to the fact that I'm an idiot :embarrass:
Snow Savant 06-23-03, 12:23 AM	Chosen, thanks for checking the math. I'll go over them again later. The real complications come from the ND/UP builds. Ugh. LordShade, good to see you here! :) You are *not* an idiot by the way. Yeah, I'm still learning all the new buttons myself. I see your points, but I also see that Bards can still provide a viable spellcasting capability in addition to 3 other areas that Sorcs and Wizs can't compete with them in .... skill diversification, Bard Lore, and more importantly, Bard Song. That's why I emphasized in the builds above a capable secondary functionality in Bard Song. I'm still amazed to this day how many Bard-playing people overlook their Bard Song capability. They either shoot arrows or cast spells. The combination of amped Spellcasting and Spell Song is not equal to a Wiz or Cleric amped for DC-maxing ... but my exercise was meant to show that it can come close, still stay versatile, while still offering so many other benefits. So the objective here is to accept and relish the role as a JOAT, but still hurt your foes with spells with more efficacy than a standard Bard. For example, a simple Bard level 4 (using new 3.5 rules), can now cast Suggestion, a Wiz/Sorc level 3 spell, on a Fascinated target with no additional wasted action, just the Suggestion DC roll. Seeing as how his CHA will be amped, and WILL saves are notoriously weak for monsters encountered at level 4, that Suggestion *will* work a good %age of the time. In addition, this character still has his 2nd level & 1st level spells, his BAB +3, his Bard Lore, his Light Amor with no ASF, his tons of skills, & decent selection of weaponry. Snow :cloud9:
LordShade 06-23-03, 12:45 AM	Snow, I'd like to cite some specific examples in order to support my argument. Out of the builds you posted above, will you select your most "plausible" build? I'll post a sorcerer-based build in response. Your points regarding bardic knowledge, skill points, and bardsong are well taken. However, since the "bardic sorcerer" builds are composed mostly of PrC levels, they only come out slightly behind in the skill point and bardsong areas. For example, just about any build that uses at least Bard5 as a prefix can just as easily use Bard1/Sorc4 instead. You come off behind in bardsong, skills, and knowledge, but from here on out, you are taking the same PrCs the straight bard would take. That means you're four levels behind in song, skills, and knowledge, but THAT'S IT. From now on, however, your spellcasting keeps getting stronger and stronger, and before long will far outstrip anything the pure bard can do. At level 20, in an optimal case, that means I have 19 levels of sorc casting, and you have 20 levels of bard casting. My DCs are the same, because I have the same PrCs and stats as you, but my magic is far stronger. Sure, you can heal, but I do have a bard level, so I can use CLW wands. You have 8 more skill points (possibly more, as I may have had to cross class a little), 4 more bard song uses a day, and more bardic knowledge. But again, since I've taken the exact same PrCs as you, I'm really not that far behind. You can use bardsong 20 times a day, I can use it 16 times. Sure, you'll be singing 4 rounds longer than me, but when I finish, I'll cast 4 9th level spells. See my point? Now, I think what you are doing is good - it's a great exercise to see how far the bard can go. What I am trying to point out is that a magic-based bard is, in my opinion, a suboptimal choice for a player character. For an NPC, several of your builds are great - it's ok for a nonplayer character to absolutely shine at one specific thing but have *glaring* gaps elsewhere. A PC should be minmaxed, but needs to be minmaxed for overall power, not one specific task. (if you can make an overall powerful PC that is also the best in the world at one task, great.) P.S. If there was a strong PrC that gave "+1 caster level of bard" the magical bard would be a whole 'nother animal. As it stands, a sorcerer can take every bard PrC and get the full benefits, and therein lies the problem.
Chosen of Shar 06-23-03, 12:57 AM	Chosen, thanks for checking the math. I'll go over them again later. The real complications come from the ND/UP builds. Ugh. Heh, I do what I can when I can... :)
Snow Savant 06-23-03, 06:11 AM	The following build is simple. And the PrC is mechanically a strong fit for Bard. The only caveat here is that it is an OA PrC. Bards, per Pg. 32 of the OA book are a "banned class". But in the 2nd paragraph of the lower left quadrant of the page, a clause does leave open the possibility that a DM could integrate Bards into his campaign by claiming the Bard is from a new, undiscovered, or far-away origin (a gaijin if you will). Bard14 / Eunuch Warlock6 An evil Bard-14 can cast 5th level Bard spells. Once you get 1 Spell Focus feat (say Illusion or Enchantment), you've met the EW pre-requirements. The beauty of this PrC is that it top-loads a bunch of extra spell slots into your higher level spells via "Bonus Spells". And EW-5 then grants you level 6 spells - the Bard's highest. This is a common reason why this PrC is usually looked upon as sub-optimal for Wiz/Sorc/WuJen builds ... it just doesn't advance spellcasting levels at a time when said classes are entering their "power" stages. Any 3 of your Bard spells are "Mighty Spells". Meaning they get Empower Spell for free. You get a grand total of 15 extra spell slots in this build. Most in levels 4 and 5. Wail of Doom is an excellent 5th level spell to Empower. All your Spell Focus feats become Greater Spell Focus feats. And, you get the Leadership feat for free. ****** Since technically, you can take this PrC at Bard-13, (you get "0" 5th level spells castable per day), you may wish to use this level up as a Horned Harbinger to get more spells to cast (via the Death Domain) even though your spellcaster level does not increase. As always, you can put those EW extra spell slots to work with the addition of more PrD's via taking at least 1 level in Divine Oracle and/or Sacred Exorcist. I'll be curious to see if we get any eunuch jokes from this post. :razz: Snow P.S. Kudos to Stoned Golem for the EW idea awhile back with his EW/Nar Demobinder build.
LordShade 06-24-03, 03:38 PM	How about.. Bard1/Sorc6/Virt7/Eunuch Warlock6. All else being equal (namely EW6) I'd say that 13 levels of sorc casting > 14 levels of bard magic. Song and skill wise, you have a 6 level advantage, but I know more spells and better spells. How do you think that stacks up? (I'd actually prefer to work with a more traditional bard build, but for argument's sake...)
Snow Savant 06-24-03, 03:57 PM	I like it, LordShade. That's still 8 uses of Bard Song although unfortunately only 8 levels of core-class Perform. Easily fixed by the ubiquitous Cosmopolitan feat. I guess it does fight the base concept of this thread being so Sorc-heavy ... but I sure dig it regardless!:D I would post more, but this lag time is killing me over here. I'll finish this post up and another then check things out later today. I'll also look at your comment you made on my Bard10/TR10 thread .... I can't get to that post. :b: Take care. Snow
Robert N. 06-24-03, 08:38 PM	wug... Snow, you out fox me on this stuff as is, so it's a bit odd to suggest a build, but you asked for it :cool: We have an Elf, fresh from the lands of Elminster and Dritz. If you're worried about making the skill requirements, be a sun elf - +2int rather than +2dex. Sun Elf from Evermeet. 1st lvl Bard feat: Improved Counterspell Knowledge (arcana):4 perform:4 Diplomacy 4 concentration 4 tumble 4 2nd lvl Bard Knowledge (arcana):5 perform:5 Diplomacy:5 3rd lvl Bard feat: Skill Focus (perform) Knowledge (arcana):6 perform:6 Diplomacy:6 4th lvl Bard Knowledge (arcana):7 perform:7 5th lvl Bard Knowledge (arcana):8 perform:8 6th lvl Spellsinger feat: Combat Casting perform:9 7th lvl Spellsinger perform:10 8th lvl Spellsinger 9th lvl Spellsinger feat: dodge 10thlvl spellsinger 11thlvl spelldancer 12thlvl spelldancer 13-20lvl Virtuoso Let's see what we have here... We have the full 20 levels of Bardic spell progression. We have the full 20 levels of Bardic music development. We have all the Virtuoso performances (except for song of fury and revealing melody) We have Spelldance (free metamagic effects on spells - just dance for 'em) We have Evasion We have Compelling Song (+[# class level] to bardic music fascinate and suggestion abilities. We have Improved Countersong (+10 to perform when attempting countersong) We have Amplified Music (All bardic music effect ranges increase by 5x[class level]. That range is tripled for the bardic fascinate) I like it ;) It would be a better spellcaster if 4 bard levels were replaced by wizard levels, but then it wouldn't be a spellcasting based bard, it'd be a wizard with a level of bard. Tell me what you think. -Robert
Snow Savant 06-24-03, 09:39 PM	Very cool. :) You know, I specifically avoided Spelldancer in my builds because of the overwhelming majority of regulars here in this board (including myself) really abhor the broken mechanic of Level-1 Spelldance. The rest of the PrC is a mixed bag of good (Evasion) and horrible (Sleep Dance - good luck getting it off in serious combat). But within the context of your build, it flows nicely, both thematically and mechanically. I like! The wacky thing about your build is it only gets 5 levels of Bard Lore. Which seems criminal ... and as DM, I might reward a well-constructed character like this with a small bonus to Bard Lore since the build theme is so tight. Also, don't underestimate the power of low-level Bard spells like Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, etc. They are some of the most esoterically powerful spells in the game (from a comparative level standpoint). But you need to be cunning, creative, and highly knowledgeable of Illusion magic mechanics (read Pg. 158 in the PHB until you know it backwards and forewards). Studying the illusions carefully and/or interacting with them requires time and actions spent by your opponent. That's time spent away from hitting you and your party. And that's also time for your party to attack said foes without getting counterattacked. Talk about efficient uses of spells. And it all falls in the theme of a Bard's role as a "party enhancer". His illusion spells are not intended to kill ... they are intended to occupy the enemy while his party safely dispatches the enemy from afar (archery, spells, etc.). More synergy occurs when your party's attacks delay or disrupt the "careful" interacting of your foes with the illusionary squad of grunting Orcs, thereby buying you more time to set-up the battlefield to suit your party's tactical needs. Fun fun fun. God bless Minor Image. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Robert N. 06-24-03, 09:49 PM	bard lore? Reads all the fine print.... Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge... hmm.... Spellsinger has bardic music, but no bardic knowledge... Virtuoso... hmm... same thing. Spell dancer levels aren't good for Bardic Knowledge and it doesn't have bardic music stackability :-/ But it does have Spelldance and Evasion (The only reason I added in two levels of this) Well, they say you have to make a compromise when you leave the host class, and I guess Bardic Knowledge is that sacrafice. As for Spelldancer, I guess you just have to figure out of SpellDancing and Evasion is a better deal than 2 more levels of bardic music stackability, song of fury and revealing melody. -Robert
Snow Savant 06-24-03, 10:10 PM	As for Spelldancer, I guess you just have to figure out of SpellDancing and Evasion is a better deal than 2 more levels of bardic music stackability, song of fury and revealing melody. Correct. You figure the average DM runs 3 combat encounters per gaming session "day" for the party. A Bard will probably use 3-6 Bard Music uses within those encounters if properly played (and taking into consideration archery and spellcasting). Your build has way more than enough Bard Song usages. As you may use some more of them in non-combat scenarios such as when you are in town interacting with the locals. ***** And never underestimate the power of Bardic Knowledge (I call it Bard Lore - sorry about that). DM's hate Bard players who overuse it, but they have to abide by the intent of this gaming mechanic since its power is very esoteric and critical for dealing with some of the easily bypassable aspects of a scenario/campaign. Knowledge is everything. Not_A_Ninja has some nice Loremaster/DivineOracle/HarperMage builds around on these boards that emphasize Bard Lore from a different perspective. BTW, LordShade, I'll get to your issues here shortly. Thanks for your patience. :) Snow
Robert N. 06-24-03, 10:21 PM	Snow, I think you miss something though. The two levels of missing bardic music stackability isn't the major loss, it's song of fury and revealing melody. So, is dancing for free metamagical effects and evasion better than singing to give the whole party barbarian rage and/or true seeing? Other than that, you hit it right on the head. -Robert
Snow Savant 06-25-03, 12:15 AM	LordShade, The objective of this post was not to show that the Bard "Spellcaster" could trump the other arcane spellcasters. It was to show that a spellcaster-emphasized Bard could exponentially outperform a traditional straight Bard in spellcasting efficacy. Which I think we all accomplished by showing with a slight tweaking, we can get 8th level spells or a ton of extra spell slots or selections. Common perception is that the straight Bard is the best Bard and it needs to be 40% archer, 30% singer, & 30% spellcaster. And that's pretty dead on. But some people wish to play a more martial Bard. Or a more sing-songy Bard. And hopefully, this thread had some impact on people who wanted a more potent arcane Bard. I personally have never had a problem with the so-called "weak" Bard spell selections. I have killed just as efficiently with 5th and 6th level Bard spells as I have with 7th and 8th level Wiz/Sorc spells. Especially with the illusion spells. And again, I go back to the overall power of the Bard comes from its multiple mechanics components combining to form its total power base. Yes, Sorc can outspell Bard. And Bard1/Sorc6/VirtX is an awesome build (I played one within 2 weeks of getting the S&S book). But I know myself and other Barsd out there know how to milk the best abilities out of a Bard's awesome skill ranks/selection, Song, and Knowledge. Something the Sorc could never do in its dreams. Yes, it might be able to accomplish emulating these abilities with spells. But would have to allocate so many of its limited spell slots to doing so that it would dilute its combat potential way below that of a Bard's spell capability. One Bard build that you cannot touch with your Sorc challenge is this: Bard13 / NarDemonbinder1 / Virtuoso6 By sole virtue of its immense skill capability, 16 ranks of UMD (Virt gets none), 13 levels of Bard Knowledge (your Sorc build gets 1), Inspire Greatness on *2* people (Virt levels do not help here), better saves/HD than the Sorc build, BAB +12, 5th level Bard & 8th level ND spells (you get 9th level spells, but the gap still is not that huge). Remember Virtuoso is a great PrC (and best suited for Sorcs), but it is not a mirror reflection of the full range of Bard abilities. And for those folks who know how to really milk the Bardic Knowledge ability, kudos to you ... it has game-breaking potential and is has as much impact as Legend Lore and similar spells. Anyway, me getting sleepy. :twitch: Hope I didn't typo too much or get cranky. Have a good night. And thanks for the issues LordShade. XO, Snow:cloud9:
Taliesin52 06-25-03, 12:21 AM	Do you want an actual bard or someone who can act as a bard. IN other words do you want the bard spell list or just a bard with powerful spells. If you want the later I'd suggest: Brd4/Wiz3/Virt10/(PrC or Brd)3 with all prc spellcasting adding to wiz. It still gives some bard spells but mostly wiz spells and all the bardic music you can get. Of course you can replace wizard with sorcerer if you don't have enough attrib points to make cha and int high. Im not sure what I'd suggest for a build focusing on the bard spell list. Perhaps a bard/virtuoso/loremaster
Robert N. 06-26-03, 03:42 AM	Hey snow, are there any PrC's that stack for bardic (or equivalent) knowledge ability? -Robert
Snow Savant 06-26-03, 09:17 AM	Yes, Robert. Harper Mage and Loremaster are 2 very good ones. HM fits nicely into Bard ... and is best taken for just 3 levels if you want the uber-Extend Spell ability. 5 levels is good too, for the Bard Lore reason you mentioned above. LM is tough for a Bard to get into, but preceeding it by taking Divine Oracle (the Divination PrD adds Divination spells to your "spells known") is a great panacea to that problem. As many levels as you can get in LM is great. You will notice in my primary post that all 3 of the PrC's I mentioned above have a represented build. Hope that helps. Snow:)
Wilhelm 06-26-03, 05:14 PM	I'm a bit confused. What is the difference between a spellsinger and a spelldancer? Also, I prefer simplicity. Who really cares as much if you get 9 different classes? I know it may give you a huge power boost and other helpful things, but why are you people concentrating on complex builds that work instead of the simple builds that work just as good?
Snow Savant 06-26-03, 05:29 PM	I'm a bit confused. What is the difference between a spellsinger and a spelldancer? Also, I prefer simplicity. Who really cares as much if you get 9 different classes? I know it may give you a huge power boost and other helpful things, but why are you people concentrating on complex builds that work instead of the simple builds that work just as good? Wilhelm, you may wish to re-read the intent and focus of this thread. You may also want to re-assess why you are visiting the C.O. forum and also your perception as to what fully entails the primary emphasis of "character optimization". If what you see here irks you, you may wish to stop reading it. Nobody is breaking any rules, instead, they are pushing the legal boundaries of the rules to ensure that a specific character archetype is optimally structured in regards to game mechanics to achieve a specific power balance. Your issues of what entails "complex" may or may not be the same as the next person. Also, your exaggeration about "9 different classes" does not help to lend credibility to your issue. It shows that potentially any logical rebuttal we may have to present to you may be accepted by ears/eyes that are biased in opinion. We have fielded a number of inquiries like yours over the years. And to my knowledge, sound rational inquirers have walked away feeling satisfied with the answers they received. So until I can get 100% clarification from you that you are open-minded, understand both the standards and extremes of character optimization & development, and have a keen understanding of 3.0 rules & mechanics, I'll hold off giving you a fairly lengthy diatribe that will not only answer your questions but give you a keen insight into the plumbings of our modus operandi and objectives here at C.O. Snow
Wilhelm 06-26-03, 05:32 PM	I didn't mean to give you impression that I don't like this thread. I must say that bards are my favorite class. I never said that you were breaking the rules. First, I was wondering what the difference was between the spellsinger and the spelldancer, and Second, I was wondering why someone would want to have so many classes. It just seems to me that it would be harder to RP. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.
Robert N. 06-26-03, 05:37 PM	You know, I must say, upon re-reading this thread, I'm wondering, are you wanting builds for a bard who fully uses his spells, or a spellcaster (wizard/sorc/etc.) who has the majority of bardic abilities? -Robert
Wilhelm 06-26-03, 05:44 PM	Reasonable question to ask. 10 points for you. Get enough and I'll buy you a coffee mug for the low low price of 10,000,000 points. Anyway, I think that the best bard is one who retains his BM and BK (Bardic Music an Bardic Knowledge). Those are probably the two most class defining things for a bard. And when I say class defining, I mean something that differentiate themselves from most other classes. While it is not nesscesary to work these skills high, I believe you should. Otherwise it was kind of a waste being a bard. Just my opinion. Anyway, can anyone tell me the difference between a Spell Singer and a Spell Dancer?
Robert N. 06-26-03, 05:53 PM	Spelldancer: Main Prestige Class ability - Dance (1 round per spell level negated) to apply metamagic feats to spells (cast after dancing). Evasion. The others suck. Spellsinger: Main Prestige Class ability - New Bardic Songs: Compelling song: +class level to all perform checks for bardic music and +class level to the DC of fascinate and suggest abilities. Spellsong: Give up a prepared spell to spontainously cast an enchantment at least one level lower - singing and instrument playing replaces verbal, somatic, (non-expensive) material, and focus requirements. Pretty much worthless for anyone except wizards, assuming you've learned whatever enchantment spells from your list that you're going to use. +10 to perform on countersong checks. Amplified music: better range on bardic music effects. -Robert
Wilhelm 06-26-03, 06:04 PM	I like the sound of that spellsinger. Which book is it in? I may have to buy it.
Otto the Bugbear 06-26-03, 06:18 PM	Wihelm A Spelldancer can dance (perform check) to increase the amount of metamagic added to a spell without actaully increasing the spell's level. Spelldancer has some other things, but that's the main focus. A Spellsinger can spontaneously cast any enchantment spell in place of any spell. Much like a cleric can spontaneously cast curing magic. Spellsinger also gains Improved Countersong and the ability to double the range of his bardic music. Now, on to the topic at hand. I stumbled across something like this today. It was something that I posted on the old board's favorite builds thread. Now that I've modified it a bit, I really like this. Sorcerer 5 / Spellsinger 5 / Harper Mage 5 / Arcane Devotee 5 I'm pretty sure the feats will work only for a human or strongheart halfling, with cosmopolitan being a must to qualify for spellsinger. 20 casting levels of sorcerer spontaneous casting of enchantment spells 10 levels of bardic music 5 levels of bardic knowledge many uses of Extend and Enlarge spell Eschew Materials free double range for bardic music good SR once per day free feat (short but okay list) Behind in power compared to some of the other lists, but still not bad. Looking at it also shows that the classes mesh together very well from a RP standpoint too. The other way is Bard 7 / Harper Mage 3 / Spellsinger 5 / Arcane Devotee 5 -- but I haven't checked the feat progression on that one yet. Probably won't either. Cheers Otto :)
AznLyte 06-27-03, 04:23 AM	Hey Snow, Interesting builds. I was thinking of playing a bard for the upcoming RPGA Legacy of the Green Regent campaign, for a great many reasons, some which include: 1) Bards are often considered the "suckiest" class. I want to be able to survive a living campaign was one :). 2) They offer fun and interesting RP opportunities. 3) They're fairly unique, you don't see many of them... ANYWAY, back to the point at hand. Currently, there is no character creation guide, but I'm suspecting that only PrC's from the DMG, FRCS, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, and Faiths and Pantheons will be allowed. I was thinking of going either Heartwarder or Spellsinger, but the Spellsong thing really boggles my mind. Why is the DC that low? Who would use Spellsong? Do you HAVE to use spellsong? can you cast normally? If not, the low DC may not work out for me. I want to go crazy-go-nuts on the enchantment casting. I want to suggest, charm, hold, and dominate left and right. :) I know bards aren't as powerful as wizards or sorcerers are, but I just want to know how far I can take it. If you can answer my questions and give me any more suggestions on how to min/max it, I'd be grateful. -AznLyte
Snow Savant 06-27-03, 01:16 PM	Lots of things to address here: 1. Wilhelm, thanks for clarifying your position re: this thread. "...I was wondering why someone would want to have so many classes. It just seems to me that it would be harder to RP... ". Valid point. But it all depends on your campaign's respective starting level (in the event you need to write up a background story), your DM's flexibility to accomodate multiple PrC's, and your own creative ability to storytell in play & off-camera. Many, many of the posters here in C.O. are able to integrate multiple core class and PrC's into the life of a 20-character build. If you need some assistance, help is right around the corner. The "Character Development" forum are experts at this and love helping people put together background stories or find ways to make your new PrC's seamlessly slide into your current campaign. 2. Robert N. - "You know, I must say, upon re-reading this thread, I'm wondering, are you wanting builds for a bard who fully uses his spells, or a spellcaster (wizard/sorc/etc.) who has the majority of bardic abilities?" What we are looking to accomplish in this thread is to create Bard-20 alternatives that are stronger in the spellcasting arena (i.e. more spells, more spell selections, more powerful spells) whilst still retaining a sizeable portion of their BK and BS capabilities. Potent Melee/Archery capability is not essential, but nice if you can retain it. The guidelines are loose, as the permutations of such builds vary wildly. For example, look at the CHA-synergy of the Bard11 / Demonologist9 build (or its variant: Bard14 / Demonologist6). 3. Wilhelm - "Anyway, I think that the best bard is one who retains his BM and BK (Bardic Music an Bardic Knowledge). Those are probably the two most class defining things for a bard." True, but the objective of this build is stated above and in the primary post. Melee and Archery Bard build posts are common in this forum. This thread is all about Spellcasting-emphasis Bards. For those of you that like trad Bards, feel free to start a post evangelizing that concept. I'll be glad to contribute. 4. Otto, thanks for the contribution. :) Yeah, LordShade was looking at the Sorceror "Quasi-Bard" builds earlier too. And I agree, you can create a better spellcasting Bard going the Sorc > Virt/SS/HM route ... but then the dilution of BS, BK, skills, & BAB becomes exponentially worse. Very cool builds though ... 5. AznLyte, Spell Song is immensely powerful in its spellcasting selection for a Bard ... and yes, the DC's blow. But check out my builds with Fatespinner and SS. They help compensate. Even 2 levels of Blood Magus or a full 9 levels of Shadow Adept can help boost that -8 to DC to make it more manageable. Play with the mechanics of those respective builds ... and if none appeal to you, just holler and I'll help you make a good custom build to pump up Spell Song. XO, Snow:)
AznLyte 06-27-03, 02:46 PM	It's not that they don't appeal to me, it's that the campaign won't allow splat books. They're only gonna allow the Core, FRCS, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, and Faiths and Pantheons. Heartwarder seemed to increase spellcasting a lot, but honestly, 1) I don't want to be tied down to a patron, and 2) you lose all the BM and BK. Not cool. SS seemed like the best option, but I don't see how spellsong increases arcane spell selection if you're a bard. All it does is allow you to trade your higher lvl spells for low lvl enchantments that you already have access to (it says, on your spell list). This removes Blood Magus and Fatespinner as options. I guess, a lot of it depends on what 3.5 does to the bard. I have ordered a copy, and we'll see in about a week or two, how to get things going. Personally, I don't understand why they use DC's to punish bards in a bard PrC. It helps wizards I guess, but other than that, I see no benefit for bards. Anyway, tell me what ya think. -AznLyte
Otto the Bugbear 06-27-03, 02:59 PM	"On your spell list" means that any that appear on the spell list for bards. It's not referring to your spells known for that character. It's the same wording for why wizards and sorcerers can activate an arcane wand (fireball for example), even if it doesn't appear in their spellbook or on their list of spells known. If it only refered to spells known, then it's just a restatement of the rules concerning casting a higher level spell in a lower level slot for sorcerers and bards. Like giving up a 9th level spell slot to cast read magic. Hope that helps Cheers Otto :)
Snow Savant 06-27-03, 03:01 PM	I do not have my books with me, but I could swear that the Spell Song ability says Enchantment spells on the Bard Spell List, not your Spell List. Hence, it applies to all Bard Enchantment spells. So the selection is huge ... but the odds of successful casting one of those spells without boosted assistance is slim. The *exact* verbiage of that line in the Spell Song description will be key here ... anybody have the book in front of them? Snow EDIT - Dangit, Otto ... we posted simultaneously! :)
AznLyte 06-27-03, 04:01 PM	Spellsong: Spellsingers can "lose" a prepared arcane spell in order to cast any arcane enchantment spell of one or more levels lower that is on their spell list. This works just as a cleric's spontaneous casting class feature. Arcane spells that do not need to be prepared can also be "lost" in this fashion, although spellsong simply grants the ability to replace a spell slot with a lower lvl arcane enchantment spell from the character's spell list. All spellsongs require verbal (singing) and somatic (playing an instrument) components, regardless of whether the spell was prepared or not. Those components replace the spells normal verbal, somatic, material, and focus components, but not any experience point costs or expensive material components. The saving throw DC for spellsongs is equal to the caster's Cha modifier + the enchantment's level + 2, regardless of whether the spell was originally prepared or not. My point is, I thought 1) Bard's have all the spell's on their list already, and 2) They don't need to prepare any spells. hence, bards can cast any spell any time if they haven't yet that day. Spellsong lowers the DC, but provides no benefit. Can you choose not to use spellsong? that's the real question. -AznLyte
Snow Savant 06-27-03, 04:42 PM	My point is, I thought 1) Bard's have all the spell's on their list already, and 2) They don't need to prepare any spells. hence, bards can cast any spell any time if they haven't yet that day. Spellsong lowers the DC, but provides no benefit. Can you choose not to use spellsong? that's the real question. Bards do not have all the enchantment spells on their list already. Re-read the Bard section in the PHB. You chose "spells known" from the pool of the Bard list. Spell Song allows you access to all the Bard Enchantment spells ... whether you chose them as a "spell known" (for your character) or whether you have not. Bard "spells known" is just like the way a Sorceror spell list works, but with its own unique operating parameters. You can chose when to activate Spell Song ... and you only really want to activate it when en enchantment spell you really need (and do not have as a "spell known") is: 1. The perfect spell not known by you (say, Charm Monster) for the perfect target (i.e. low WILL save creature). 2. Complented by DC boosting capabilities at your disposal (i.e. Spin, DC-lowering spells or [Sp] affecting the target). 3. Backed-up with alternative viable sources of dealing with the monster if your Spell Song fails. :P Snow
Matt Neuman 06-27-03, 06:22 PM	Undead Fighter Bard Human Bard 7/Divine Oracle 3/Sacred Exorcist 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 Levels 1-7 Bard, 8-10 Divine Oracle, 11-16 Sacred Exorcist, 17-20 Mage of the Arcane Order Level 6 Bard spells (Caster Level 20) Spellpool II (6th level spells) 2 Prestige Domains 11+Cha Modifier Turn attempts per day. Feats: 1 Arcane Preparation 1 Enlarge Spell 3 Cooperative spell 6 Skill Focus (Scry) 9 Disguise Spell 12 Requiem 15 Power Attack 18 Divine Might 20 Divine Vengance Spell Selection: Lots of Healing Spells Plus 4th Dismissal (for Sacred Exorcist), Spectral Weapon (+4 ghost touch weapon)
AznLyte 06-28-03, 06:14 AM	You're right Snow, hehe. I did read it wrong. Hrmm... that's a good point. Still... the -8 really hurts the spellsongs. But yeah, I guess it's pretty cool. I dunno... I'll post more when 3.5 comes out, and I decide what I want. :) Thanks again for you pointing out my goofiness. Gratefully, AznLyte
Ahriman Tenebris 06-29-03, 10:39 PM	duplicate post :rolleyes:
Ahriman Tenebris 06-29-03, 10:42 PM	Originally posted by Snow Savant Let's say you wanted to play a Bard. And you wanted to make him as potent magically as any other spellcaster. You could care less about his ability to melee or shoot arrows, hence you don't want Holy Liberator levels in his build. Bard 7/Spellsigner 5/Strifeleader of Cyric 8 6th level bard spells (18th level spellcasting) 12 bard song uses compelling song, spell song, improved countersong, amplified music, from strifeleader automatically add ghost sound, invisibility, silent image, minor image, mirror image, major image, phantasmal killer to your spells known. Lastly, whom wouldn't want to play Bard of the Prince of Lies? :devil:
dragonlensmanjm 06-30-03, 12:53 AM	Originally posted by Matt Neuman Undead Fighter Bard Human Bard 7/Divine Oracle 3/Sacred Exorcist 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 Levels 1-7 Bard, 8-10 Divine Oracle, 11-16 Sacred Exorcist, 17-20 Mage of the Arcane Order Level 6 Bard spells (Caster Level 20) Spellpool II (6th level spells) 2 Prestige Domains 11+Cha Modifier Turn attempts per day. Feats: 1 Arcane Preparation 1 Enlarge Spell 3 Cooperative spell 6 Skill Focus (Scry) 9 Disguise Spell 12 Requiem 15 Power Attack 18 Divine Might 20 Divine Vengance Spell Selection: Lots of Healing Spells Plus 4th Dismissal (for Sacred Exorcist), Spectral Weapon (+4 ghost touch weapon) What is the point of Divine Oracle in this build? It slightly enhances the spellcasting abilities by adding the divination domain, and prescient sense is nice, but for a person who is mainly about fighting undead, why add it? Is there some benefit that I'm overlooking? It's a nice build, not trying to put it down, just curious as to what your reason was.
HammerFist 10-04-03, 03:41 PM	I really like Matt's build. The Divine Oracle isn't as powerful as a Sacred Exorcist IMHO, but I think it works for a Bard better.
Mad_Hatter 10-04-03, 09:31 PM	I'm surprised more people haven't been integrating the great new Bardic prestiege classes from Dragon 311. I don't have any of my books with me, so I can't post an expanded build, but here's the basic progression (a compromise between a build I posted in the 3.5 Bard thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67002&perpage=30&pagenumber=3) and one that was posted by Ranthanas in the same thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67002&perpage=30&pagenumber=3)): Bard 5/World Speaker 4/Green Whisperer 5/World Speaker 1/Mourner 5 This character would have trained with an order of Worldspeaker bards in his youth and return to take on the prestiege class. At Worldspeaker 4 when he gains the ability to speak with the elements he'll feel so much closer to nature that he'll abandon his Worldspeaker training and take Green Whisperer. When he returns to finish his training as a Worldspeaker and gains the ability to speak with the dead, he'll begin to view undead in a much more negative light than he previously did and dedicate himself thereafter to hunting such abominations (Mourner 5). I think you end up with 20th level bard casting, 5th level druid casting, 20th level bard song, super abilities vs. undead and an in-character reason to take the oodles of prestiege classes. The only real hit taken is in Bardic lore (you get the equivalent of 13th level), and it gets bonuses when dealing with undead or nature. Also, I think there's a feat in Song & Silence that gives you a bonus to bard lore.
Ranthanas 10-05-03, 10:47 AM	Bard 5/Green Whisperer 5/Mystic Theurge 10 10th level Bardic Music 20th level Bardic Magic 15th level Druidic Magic BAB +11/+6/+1 Variants on theme: Druid 4/Bard 1/Green Whisperer 5/Mystic Theurge 10 Summoner from Hell: Druid 4/Bard 1/Green Whisperer 5/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Virtuoso 3 18th level Druidic Magic (9th level spells) 6th level Bardic Magic (2nd level spells) 9th level Bardic Music (Inspire Greatness, Inspire Courage +2) 25th level Nar Demonbinder Magic (8th level spells) Note: Mystic Theurge 9 rather than Virtuoso 3 will give 8 levels of bardic magic, giving spells like Glibness and Good Hope at the cost of inspire greatness and one point of Inspire Courage. Also the first two epic feats should go on epic casting and a 9th level slot for the Demonbinder (allowing a second batch of epic spells)
helicopter 10-29-03, 04:52 PM	The Exalted Arcanist from BoED's is a good addition to spellcaster bards. really expands your spell selection and gives you extra feats that dont hurt your metamagic casting.
JosephKell 10-29-03, 05:00 PM	Originally posted by helicopter The Exalted Arcanist from BoED's is a good addition to spellcaster bards. really expands your spell selection and gives you extra feats that dont hurt your metamagic casting. Yes, with Exalted Arcanist a Bard or Sorcere can qualify for Thaumaturgist. Imagine a Semi-Martial Bard with a bad *** Planar cohort!
ed209 04-13-05, 02:47 AM	Under the current rules, I don't see why you would actually WANT to be a bard and focus on magic. I think it's much better to be a sorcerer at your core and just pick up bard-type PrCs. You'll act like a bard, look like a bard, sing like a bard (with virtuoso), but have the kick-ass spells of a sorcerer. ... Not trying to agree, since I've developed a recent fascination with bards, but this may be as close as it gets for the bard wannabe: Wizard or Sorc 7/Heartfire Fanner 4/Virtuoso 9 Heartfire Fanner is from Dragon Magazine #314. Prereqs: Diplomacy & Perform 10 ranks, Negotiater & Skill Focus(Perform) feats & membership in Brotherhood of the Burning Heart. At level one gain bardic music ability of a 5th level bard (if you don't already have bardic music) and access to ALL bardic music effects, limited only by level and ranks in Performance. [what were they thinking?!?] So, be a human and get the Able Learner feat (or trade 3 levels of wiz\sorc for human paragon), and you'll have 18 bardic music uses per day (if I interpret HF correctly; bardic music of a 5th level bard, and the PRC stacks for bardic music), Inspire Courage of a 14th level bard (almost maxed), and access to all other bardic music effects, if you've kept Performance up high enough. Only thing missing is bardic lore. Yikes!
Delvor 10-01-05, 04:23 PM	Anyone tried Apostle of peace Bard?
Rara Avis 10-28-05, 01:47 PM	I felt that this builds deserves special mention on this thread. Bard7/Master Thrower2 or Shadowdancer2/Druid1/Sublime Chord1/Fochlucan Lyrist9 -8th lvl Bardic caster (3rd lvl spells) -10th lvl Druidic caster (5th lvl spells) -10th lvl Sublime Chord caster (9th lvl spells) -17th lvl Bardic Music (up to and including Inspire Courage +3 and Inspire Heroics) -17th lvl Bardic Knowledge -BAB +16 (MT) or +15 (SD) -Archery extensive feat requirment and bonuses for MT (always a good thing for Archer Bards) or Mobility feat requirements along with Hide in plain sight and Darkvision for SD (good for stealthy Bards and Subsonics) -Skill Monkey (average is 6 to 4+Int with access to the majority of the skills list) -Decent Hp for spell caster (average is d6) -Fort +7,Ref +12,Will +16 (good Will) -Unbound (no penalties if you want to be a Gnome for the +2 Con bonus which you need for example) -A riding dog (which is awesome if your a Strongheart Halfling or a Gnome...Yeehah!) [if you take the Natural Bond feat, especially at Bard2/ Druid1/Bard3, you qualify for the Fleshraker Dinosaur as a animal companion early in the game. This is great if you're Medium size and need a Hit-and-run meat shield] This Build can also be played 1-20 (if you have the Archer version) unlike many builds I've seen that could only be played at high levels. Slap some Words of Creation, Lingering, Subsonic, or even Songs of the Heart and Telfirian Song (thanks Snow) and you got a simple yet powerful build that everyone could enjoy. Taste great with sugar too. Thanks to Lord Zed and Mommy is an Orc for this one. [Edit] Eventhough not alot of people like the build Bard7/Rog2/Drd1/SC1/FL9, I find that I like it only because I couple it with Able Learner and max out Disable Device only when my party likes a rogue. Some say that its not as optimized but to each his own. I recently started one off like so. Human 1-Rog1-Able Learner, Point Blank Shot 2-Brd1 3-Drd1-Natural Bond 4-Brd2 5-Brd3 6-Brd4-Precise Shot
VedicDragon 10-28-05, 03:01 PM	How would this train of thought evolve when we add the Bardic PrCs from Complete Arcane? One focused on song to the exclusion of spells, and one focussed on spellcraft to the exclusion of songs. Am interested, as I have a former 2nd edition human Paladin/Mage swashbuckler kit that has been converted into 3rd for the purposes of a campaign I am playing in. He had a Tressym familiar in 2nd, but it was decided I should go arcane-focus bard for the "feel" of the character, and current outlook is going to be Swashbuckler/Bard, Devoted Performer feat, Lawfull good, then add Paladin as a 3rd class and either Knight of the Chalice Prestige class or one of the Bardic Prestige classes, or just focus on pal. Yes I realize that is -waaaaaay- lot of classes, but the Devoted perfomer feat should offset that. I Think. Is there a way to get a Tressym familiar in 3.5 without having to take TWO feats as a bard? Back in 2nd it was a spell, now it's class-specific or Feat, and to get an improved one (closest logic I can justify for the Tressym) is ANOTHER feat. Sick. :-( Halp!
nihility 11-30-05, 09:22 PM	:bump:
VedicDragon 01-03-06, 03:26 PM	A brief update to this thread for a narsty bard spellcaster build. 7 Bard/9 Paladin/2 Sublime Chord/ x Silver Pyromancer w/ Devoted Performer feat, Then choose Sword of the Arcane Order to convert Paladin spells into Sorceror/Wizards spells, and takes Sublime Chord at the next 2 Levels before jumping to Silver Pyromancer. All your character levels count as caster levels for fire-based magic. Sublime chord replaces your bardic casting progression for 4th level spells and up, and Silver Pyromancer advances it to supplement the theme of Holy-channelled arcane magics smiting evil outsiders and the like. Sword of the arcane order provides you with 1-3rd level spells using your Paladin casting progression.
WendigoMonk 01-03-06, 04:43 PM	Lots of things to address here: What we are looking to accomplish in this thread is to create Bard-20 alternatives that are stronger in the spellcasting arena (i.e. more spells, more spell selections, more powerful spells) whilst still retaining a sizeable portion of their BK and BS capabilities. Potent Melee/Archery capability is not essential, but nice if you can retain it. The guidelines are loose, as the permutations of such builds vary wildly. For example, look at the CHA-synergy of the Bard11 / Demonologist9 build (or its variant: Bard14 / Demonologist6). Snow:) Ok bearing what you want in mind. I put Bard 10/sublime chord 10 into play. Full BK and BM as well as up to 9th level spells. sounds sweet to me. probably could be optimized from here but i am new to that part. :D
PonTelon 01-03-06, 11:34 PM	Wow, talk about night of the living Threads. This came out of no where. Yes, The Sublime Compilation (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340926) should be able to fill all of your Spell Casting Bard's needs. Ever.
Becks 09-23-06, 08:48 AM	What about Marshall and Warlock does it fix with bard?