Bard and Wizard ideas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard and Wizard ideas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Merlion
08-15-04, 12:25 PM I may actually finally be getting to play again soon, and I am probably going to play either a bard or a wizard.

I'd just like some general ideas on building these sorts of characters.

If Bard, I'd probably mostly focus on support and social stuff but I'd kind of like to be able to skirmish a bit without dying. Melee not ranged as I think we're already going to have an archer.

For the wizard I am thinking basic magic swiss army knife.

I dont know what if any splatbooks are being allowed, so I want to stick to all-core for purposes of this thread.

With the Bard I'd probably want to stay single classed or maybe a few fighter levels. The Wizard would probably take Archmage as soon as possible.

Mainly, I'd just like a little advice on good feat and spell choices for these broad goals. I'm not super good at optimization.
Ithilorien
08-15-04, 07:47 PM Why not do both?

Bard 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsinger 5/ Virtuoso 10

Or you could make a Bard 16/ Warrior Skald 4 to be a combat bard.

I'm personally becoming very fond of Bard 10/ War Chanter 10.

Check the 3.5 Build FAQ sticky for some useful links regarding all the classes. Mucknuggle's Bard builds thread and Yekoj's handbooks for both the bard and wizard should give you a lot of ideas.
Merlion
08-15-04, 08:21 PM While I apreciate the input, as I mentioned I am looking for core only. War Chanter, Virtuso, Spell Singer etc I dont know if any of these things are going to be allowed.

I'm not really interested in Sorcerer.

I am mainly looking for feat/spell/skill etc advice for a Bard or perhaps Bard/Fighter who is mostly support but can fight some to, and for a very basic Wizard (eventually Archmage).

I did a search for Bard threads in this area of the forum but they were all too prestige class centered.
Lakom
08-15-04, 08:56 PM Bard 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsinger 5/ Virtuoso 10

I am afraid you can't do this, spellsinger needs 8 ranks in perform so you have to do bard1/sorc3/bard1 or go sorc4/bard1 and have a 14 inteligence if not human and you don't want to cc skills...IMO both options seriously weaken the char.
Kingside_Bishop
08-16-04, 02:11 AM I've found that the whip and whip dagger are two overlooked skirmish weapons, which the bard is automatically proficient with. If you play a human, you can take Expertise and Improved Disarm at first level, and at third take Improved Trip or Weapon Finesse. At sixth level, take whatever you didn't take at third. THen go the Spring Attack route, to negate any advantage the enemy had with attacks of opportunity. Taking those levels of fighter would speed the feat progression up. I know it's core only, but let me just mention a level or two of lasher (really potent when mixed with spring attack).

Tumble is always nice, and Use Magic Device is a must.

Hope this was helpful.
Kingside_Bishop
08-16-04, 02:16 AM Curses... it's... finally... hapenned... to me... <<<Gasp, Hack>>>
Merlion
08-16-04, 11:00 AM Hmm...I was thinking bards had lost whip profciency in 3.5, but I was wrong.

Yes a whip could be interesting. Along with a rapier and Weapon Finesse for damage.

I'd probably take Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative at first level (my bard will be human)

Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and the Doge/Mobility/Spring Attack would probably be nice at some point and like you said a few fighter levels would make it easier to aqquire them.

With whip and rapier I could actually fight with weaker enemies and use the whip to inconvience the bigger ones from a distance

Any ideas for Wizard?
nikademus
08-16-04, 01:11 PM Hello,
you want to have a utility character.
Why not an arcane trickster ?

Rogue 3
Wizard 5
Arcane Ttrickster 10
Archmage 2

or
Wizard 7
Loremaster 10
Archmage 3

Nikademus
Merlion
08-16-04, 01:15 PM ~sigh~

Theres already going to be one Arcane Trickster in the party

Besides which...as I said...I want a Bard or a Bard/Fighter who's a support/combat character.

If I did Wizard/Archmage I might do some Loremaster too, if the DM allows taking more than one prestige class.
Gerdreg
08-16-04, 01:30 PM If you were thinking of taking a few levels of fighter anyways go Eldritch Knight to get your BAB a little higher. One example would be...

Sylvan Elf Bard 15/Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 4

Pros
- BAB +16, extra attack at level 20
- 2 Extra Feats, from F1 and EK1

Cons
- Casts as 18 Bard, losing 2 caster levels
- Doesn't get Mass Suggestion or Inspire Courage+4

Also, to make this build work you will need to be a Human, Half-Elf, Dwarf, or Gnome.

If you wanted to substitute Ranger for Fighter, you could be a Sylvan Elf (+2 Str and Dex, -2 Con and Int).

If you wanted to substitute Barbarian for Fighter, you could be an Orc (+4 Str, -2 Int, Wis and Cha) or a Half-Orc (+2 Str, -2 Int and Cha). The -2 Cha may not be optimal, but if you are melee oriented, a whopping +4 Str can make a difference at low levels.

Both the Sylvan Elf and Orc are 0 ECL.
Aramil Liadon
08-16-04, 02:03 PM What's a sylvan elf? If you mean wood elves, they got +2 Dex and Str, buut -2 Con, Int AND CHA! I think both the Int and Cha penalties are bad for a bard...

Aramil
Merlion
08-16-04, 02:07 PM I'm pretty sure he's refering to something different.

I would be Human most likely

Yea some Eldritch Knight might not be a bad idea

Still I am mainly looking for feat/spell/skill suggestions...I am familiar with most of the avaible class options.

Basic mage, combaty bard, or possibly something involving fighter/wizard (if I could get it aproved maybe Spellsword or Bladesinger).

Mostly I am looking to see what people feel are good choices for feats, spells, ability score allocation, any particular magic items etc.
UMiskatonic
08-16-04, 02:08 PM For bard, sometimes it's what you do, and not who you are that matters.

A bard can be a useful skirmisher without really doing any damage. Tumble into flanking for your fighters, turn up the combat expertise, and fight defensively to aid another. If you sing while you do it, you add +5 to thier hit rolls, and +1 to their damage. Meanwhile, your AC is improved by +4 or higher.

Lasher is a good prestige class for a bard. Eldritch Knight is not. You don't gain much, and lose a good deal more.

One level of fighter or barbarian will help your meager fort save, and allow all weapons, which is also useful.

For a real utility character, you could try bard 8/holy liberator 3/mystic theurge 9 (no books, sorry if that isn't quite it)

Cheers,
UMiskatonic
Scandal
08-16-04, 04:24 PM Bard 20 makes a decent stealthy archer frontman (not best just decent)

Feats obviously Point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot
also think of subsonics if you can and words of creation if you are good and allowed use of book of exalted deeds. Lingering song is great also..

with rapid shot and haste you will have 5 attacks, 4 with haste 5 with rapid shot..

With a 14 in int you will be loaded with skills so you should be okay..

-Scan
SolitudeSeraph
08-16-04, 05:01 PM Sorc 6/Prestiege Bard (from UA) 14 will give you 16th level Sorc casting..and all the little bard class abilities...although you miss out on inspire courage +4...

Wizard 6 would work also..but you miss out on all the cha synergy
Merlion
08-16-04, 05:34 PM Bard will be a normal class not a prestige class in this campaign.

I know which feats to use for Archery, but I was going to go with melee combat not archery
SolitudeSeraph
08-16-04, 05:40 PM Too bad..you really should look at the prestiege bard from unearthed arcana..gives 11/15 spellcasting progression..and all the bardic abilities in 15 levels..
Merlion
08-16-04, 06:46 PM I really prefer the bard as a core class overall.

The DM of this perspective game reccently got very shy about using stuff I'd written or variants because some of the people that may be playing are newish too 3.x, and he's afraid of confusing them.

Otherwise I'd want half the stuff in UA to be in play.
catharz
08-16-04, 07:16 PM Well, your party already has an Arcane trickster, so you'll definately either be stuck in the role of primary spellcaster (Wizard) or melee skirmisher or tank (:eek: Bard).

For the wizard, I think Loremaster is an awesome PrC.

If you end up playing a Bard, max constitution to offset your HD. Dwarf Barbarian 1/Bard might be the safest bet. You get the fast movement to offset your slow speed, and great HP at first level. Remember to buy lots of arcane Cure light wounds wands!
PhoenixInferno
08-16-04, 08:10 PM Being a Dwarven bard as catharz mentioned also opens up the Memory Smith PrC from Dragon Magazine, which is cool.
Merlion
08-16-04, 09:01 PM I am now sort of leaning toward Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage

Starting at 3rd level. Human, got Skill Focus in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) free scribe scroll, and Spell Focus (Evocation)
Cold Napalm
08-16-04, 09:13 PM Well as far as core goes...a fighter 2 wizard 8 EK 10 isn't too bad a build.

Loremaster rocks and is one of my favorite prestige class.

As for feats...umm take craft wonderous if your the swiss army knife character. Umm are you in FR at all? If so some of the regional feats would be great like mind over matter or luck of the heros or spell casting prodigy(okay this one isn't a regional). Otherwise, I'd say get quicken spell, maximize spell and empower spell if at all possible with craft rod. While you'll almost never use the meta magic due to it's obcenely high modifiers to spell level...you can make meta magic rods to actually break the game at high levels.
Merlion
08-16-04, 09:17 PM Eh...I will be taking Empower and Quicken. Might well take Wonderous Item. I wish we were using the much more flexible Arcana Unearthed item creation feats

If I found out Metamagic Rods are actually allowed I might take Craft Rod.

I dont think we're in FR

The Wizard is a lot easier for me. Anything having to do with melee combat is where I'd need a little advice...with magic I am pretty comfortable.

Although who knows, I could change my mind at any moment lol.
Cold Napalm
08-16-04, 09:23 PM Meta magic rod is now in core DMG...muahaha the fools :smirk: .

For fighting...as a fighter mage...expertise combined with some of the buff spells = one near untouchable character.

Improved trip rocks now...attack when they go down and stand up is so nice.

TWF with improved shield bash is fun too...mithral shield means no arcane failure too.
Merlion
08-16-04, 10:08 PM Oh I forgot about that. I dont have a 3.5 DMG yet.
Thannin
08-16-04, 10:23 PM Originally posted by Kingside_Bishop
Curses... it's... finally... hapenned... to me... <<<Gasp, Hack>>>
yo Kingside, check your sig, your character casts at 6th level, not 7th :-/. Just figure Id point it out. Cler 3/sacred fist 2/contemplative 1 is six caster levels.
Gerdreg
08-17-04, 07:38 AM Originally posted by Aramil Liadon
What's a sylvan elf? If you mean wood elves, they got +2 Dex and Str, buut -2 Con, Int AND CHA! I think both the Int and Cha penalties are bad for a bard...

Aramil

Yes, I did in fact mean Wood Elves, which are referred to as Sylvan Elves in their description. In the 3.5 MM they no longer have a -2 Cha.
Kingside_Bishop
08-17-04, 11:25 AM Thanks Thannin, but my DM is one of the few fans of mongoose press, and he allows any feat from their feat book. One is multiclass spellcaster, which allows me to boost my caster level by one. I also convinced him to allow me to add levels of sacred fist to me cleric caster level.

Yeah, I know, it's munshkinish. I normally don't, but I did in this case because he munshkins too. And we all know how dangerous a munschkin DM can be.
SolitudeSeraph
08-17-04, 04:33 PM If you're mainly going for bardic knowledge..but don't want the abilities/casting you can get bardic knowledge from cloistered cleric..it's called "lore" but it's virtually the same thing
Rocco
08-17-04, 09:09 PM If you're still open for a bard/fighter build, you could opt for
1 barbar
4 bard
2 rage mage
3 spellsword (later ones both in complete divine)

At lvl 10 this build has only lost 1 BaB so far, but 3 spell levels. From here, you could go anywhere. You got a -25% on ASF by this time, which enables you to wear breastplate without penalties.
You could take 10 dragon disciple after that, which is very nice for combat prowess. But you really could go anywhere from there.

Waah, just read that the spellsword needs proficiency with all types of armour, so this build doesn't work this way. You'd probably have to throw in 1 level of fighter and then dragon disciple might not be the best option for 9 levels...
Ithilorien
08-17-04, 11:36 PM For a core-only battle bard you could try the basic "bardbarian" build (bard 16/barbarian 4). I only played this up to level 10, but he seemed to fare pretty well, and ahs a fun 'Nordic Skald' feel . . .

4d12 hit points is a decent boost, you also get +16 BAB for four iterative attacks, a couple uses of rage, and a higher fort save.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Merlion 08-15-04, 12:25 PM	I may actually finally be getting to play again soon, and I am probably going to play either a bard or a wizard. I'd just like some general ideas on building these sorts of characters. If Bard, I'd probably mostly focus on support and social stuff but I'd kind of like to be able to skirmish a bit without dying. Melee not ranged as I think we're already going to have an archer. For the wizard I am thinking basic magic swiss army knife. I dont know what if any splatbooks are being allowed, so I want to stick to all-core for purposes of this thread. With the Bard I'd probably want to stay single classed or maybe a few fighter levels. The Wizard would probably take Archmage as soon as possible. Mainly, I'd just like a little advice on good feat and spell choices for these broad goals. I'm not super good at optimization.
Ithilorien 08-15-04, 07:47 PM	Why not do both? Bard 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsinger 5/ Virtuoso 10 Or you could make a Bard 16/ Warrior Skald 4 to be a combat bard. I'm personally becoming very fond of Bard 10/ War Chanter 10. Check the 3.5 Build FAQ sticky for some useful links regarding all the classes. Mucknuggle's Bard builds thread and Yekoj's handbooks for both the bard and wizard should give you a lot of ideas.
Merlion 08-15-04, 08:21 PM	While I apreciate the input, as I mentioned I am looking for core only. War Chanter, Virtuso, Spell Singer etc I dont know if any of these things are going to be allowed. I'm not really interested in Sorcerer. I am mainly looking for feat/spell/skill etc advice for a Bard or perhaps Bard/Fighter who is mostly support but can fight some to, and for a very basic Wizard (eventually Archmage). I did a search for Bard threads in this area of the forum but they were all too prestige class centered.
Lakom 08-15-04, 08:56 PM	Bard 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsinger 5/ Virtuoso 10 I am afraid you can't do this, spellsinger needs 8 ranks in perform so you have to do bard1/sorc3/bard1 or go sorc4/bard1 and have a 14 inteligence if not human and you don't want to cc skills...IMO both options seriously weaken the char.
Kingside_Bishop 08-16-04, 02:11 AM	I've found that the whip and whip dagger are two overlooked skirmish weapons, which the bard is automatically proficient with. If you play a human, you can take Expertise and Improved Disarm at first level, and at third take Improved Trip or Weapon Finesse. At sixth level, take whatever you didn't take at third. THen go the Spring Attack route, to negate any advantage the enemy had with attacks of opportunity. Taking those levels of fighter would speed the feat progression up. I know it's core only, but let me just mention a level or two of lasher (really potent when mixed with spring attack). Tumble is always nice, and Use Magic Device is a must. Hope this was helpful.
Kingside_Bishop 08-16-04, 02:16 AM	Curses... it's... finally... hapenned... to me... <<<Gasp, Hack>>>
Merlion 08-16-04, 11:00 AM	Hmm...I was thinking bards had lost whip profciency in 3.5, but I was wrong. Yes a whip could be interesting. Along with a rapier and Weapon Finesse for damage. I'd probably take Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative at first level (my bard will be human) Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, and the Doge/Mobility/Spring Attack would probably be nice at some point and like you said a few fighter levels would make it easier to aqquire them. With whip and rapier I could actually fight with weaker enemies and use the whip to inconvience the bigger ones from a distance Any ideas for Wizard?
nikademus 08-16-04, 01:11 PM	Hello, you want to have a utility character. Why not an arcane trickster ? Rogue 3 Wizard 5 Arcane Ttrickster 10 Archmage 2 or Wizard 7 Loremaster 10 Archmage 3 Nikademus
Merlion 08-16-04, 01:15 PM	~sigh~ Theres already going to be one Arcane Trickster in the party Besides which...as I said...I want a Bard or a Bard/Fighter who's a support/combat character. If I did Wizard/Archmage I might do some Loremaster too, if the DM allows taking more than one prestige class.
Gerdreg 08-16-04, 01:30 PM	If you were thinking of taking a few levels of fighter anyways go Eldritch Knight to get your BAB a little higher. One example would be... Sylvan Elf Bard 15/Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 4 Pros - BAB +16, extra attack at level 20 - 2 Extra Feats, from F1 and EK1 Cons - Casts as 18 Bard, losing 2 caster levels - Doesn't get Mass Suggestion or Inspire Courage+4 Also, to make this build work you will need to be a Human, Half-Elf, Dwarf, or Gnome. If you wanted to substitute Ranger for Fighter, you could be a Sylvan Elf (+2 Str and Dex, -2 Con and Int). If you wanted to substitute Barbarian for Fighter, you could be an Orc (+4 Str, -2 Int, Wis and Cha) or a Half-Orc (+2 Str, -2 Int and Cha). The -2 Cha may not be optimal, but if you are melee oriented, a whopping +4 Str can make a difference at low levels. Both the Sylvan Elf and Orc are 0 ECL.
Aramil Liadon 08-16-04, 02:03 PM	What's a sylvan elf? If you mean wood elves, they got +2 Dex and Str, buut -2 Con, Int AND CHA! I think both the Int and Cha penalties are bad for a bard... Aramil
Merlion 08-16-04, 02:07 PM	I'm pretty sure he's refering to something different. I would be Human most likely Yea some Eldritch Knight might not be a bad idea Still I am mainly looking for feat/spell/skill suggestions...I am familiar with most of the avaible class options. Basic mage, combaty bard, or possibly something involving fighter/wizard (if I could get it aproved maybe Spellsword or Bladesinger). Mostly I am looking to see what people feel are good choices for feats, spells, ability score allocation, any particular magic items etc.
UMiskatonic 08-16-04, 02:08 PM	For bard, sometimes it's what you do, and not who you are that matters. A bard can be a useful skirmisher without really doing any damage. Tumble into flanking for your fighters, turn up the combat expertise, and fight defensively to aid another. If you sing while you do it, you add +5 to thier hit rolls, and +1 to their damage. Meanwhile, your AC is improved by +4 or higher. Lasher is a good prestige class for a bard. Eldritch Knight is not. You don't gain much, and lose a good deal more. One level of fighter or barbarian will help your meager fort save, and allow all weapons, which is also useful. For a real utility character, you could try bard 8/holy liberator 3/mystic theurge 9 (no books, sorry if that isn't quite it) Cheers, UMiskatonic
Scandal 08-16-04, 04:24 PM	Bard 20 makes a decent stealthy archer frontman (not best just decent) Feats obviously Point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot also think of subsonics if you can and words of creation if you are good and allowed use of book of exalted deeds. Lingering song is great also.. with rapid shot and haste you will have 5 attacks, 4 with haste 5 with rapid shot.. With a 14 in int you will be loaded with skills so you should be okay.. -Scan
SolitudeSeraph 08-16-04, 05:01 PM	Sorc 6/Prestiege Bard (from UA) 14 will give you 16th level Sorc casting..and all the little bard class abilities...although you miss out on inspire courage +4... Wizard 6 would work also..but you miss out on all the cha synergy
Merlion 08-16-04, 05:34 PM	Bard will be a normal class not a prestige class in this campaign. I know which feats to use for Archery, but I was going to go with melee combat not archery
SolitudeSeraph 08-16-04, 05:40 PM	Too bad..you really should look at the prestiege bard from unearthed arcana..gives 11/15 spellcasting progression..and all the bardic abilities in 15 levels..
Merlion 08-16-04, 06:46 PM	I really prefer the bard as a core class overall. The DM of this perspective game reccently got very shy about using stuff I'd written or variants because some of the people that may be playing are newish too 3.x, and he's afraid of confusing them. Otherwise I'd want half the stuff in UA to be in play.
catharz 08-16-04, 07:16 PM	Well, your party already has an Arcane trickster, so you'll definately either be stuck in the role of primary spellcaster (Wizard) or melee skirmisher or tank (:eek: Bard). For the wizard, I think Loremaster is an awesome PrC. If you end up playing a Bard, max constitution to offset your HD. Dwarf Barbarian 1/Bard might be the safest bet. You get the fast movement to offset your slow speed, and great HP at first level. Remember to buy lots of arcane Cure light wounds wands!
PhoenixInferno 08-16-04, 08:10 PM	Being a Dwarven bard as catharz mentioned also opens up the Memory Smith PrC from Dragon Magazine, which is cool.
Merlion 08-16-04, 09:01 PM	I am now sort of leaning toward Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage Starting at 3rd level. Human, got Skill Focus in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) free scribe scroll, and Spell Focus (Evocation)
Cold Napalm 08-16-04, 09:13 PM	Well as far as core goes...a fighter 2 wizard 8 EK 10 isn't too bad a build. Loremaster rocks and is one of my favorite prestige class. As for feats...umm take craft wonderous if your the swiss army knife character. Umm are you in FR at all? If so some of the regional feats would be great like mind over matter or luck of the heros or spell casting prodigy(okay this one isn't a regional). Otherwise, I'd say get quicken spell, maximize spell and empower spell if at all possible with craft rod. While you'll almost never use the meta magic due to it's obcenely high modifiers to spell level...you can make meta magic rods to actually break the game at high levels.
Merlion 08-16-04, 09:17 PM	Eh...I will be taking Empower and Quicken. Might well take Wonderous Item. I wish we were using the much more flexible Arcana Unearthed item creation feats If I found out Metamagic Rods are actually allowed I might take Craft Rod. I dont think we're in FR The Wizard is a lot easier for me. Anything having to do with melee combat is where I'd need a little advice...with magic I am pretty comfortable. Although who knows, I could change my mind at any moment lol.
Cold Napalm 08-16-04, 09:23 PM	Meta magic rod is now in core DMG...muahaha the fools :smirk: . For fighting...as a fighter mage...expertise combined with some of the buff spells = one near untouchable character. Improved trip rocks now...attack when they go down and stand up is so nice. TWF with improved shield bash is fun too...mithral shield means no arcane failure too.
Merlion 08-16-04, 10:08 PM	Oh I forgot about that. I dont have a 3.5 DMG yet.
Thannin 08-16-04, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by Kingside_Bishop Curses... it's... finally... hapenned... to me... <<<Gasp, Hack>>> yo Kingside, check your sig, your character casts at 6th level, not 7th :-/. Just figure Id point it out. Cler 3/sacred fist 2/contemplative 1 is six caster levels.
Gerdreg 08-17-04, 07:38 AM	Originally posted by Aramil Liadon What's a sylvan elf? If you mean wood elves, they got +2 Dex and Str, buut -2 Con, Int AND CHA! I think both the Int and Cha penalties are bad for a bard... Aramil Yes, I did in fact mean Wood Elves, which are referred to as Sylvan Elves in their description. In the 3.5 MM they no longer have a -2 Cha.
Kingside_Bishop 08-17-04, 11:25 AM	Thanks Thannin, but my DM is one of the few fans of mongoose press, and he allows any feat from their feat book. One is multiclass spellcaster, which allows me to boost my caster level by one. I also convinced him to allow me to add levels of sacred fist to me cleric caster level. Yeah, I know, it's munshkinish. I normally don't, but I did in this case because he munshkins too. And we all know how dangerous a munschkin DM can be.
SolitudeSeraph 08-17-04, 04:33 PM	If you're mainly going for bardic knowledge..but don't want the abilities/casting you can get bardic knowledge from cloistered cleric..it's called "lore" but it's virtually the same thing
Rocco 08-17-04, 09:09 PM	If you're still open for a bard/fighter build, you could opt for 1 barbar 4 bard 2 rage mage 3 spellsword (later ones both in complete divine) At lvl 10 this build has only lost 1 BaB so far, but 3 spell levels. From here, you could go anywhere. You got a -25% on ASF by this time, which enables you to wear breastplate without penalties. You could take 10 dragon disciple after that, which is very nice for combat prowess. But you really could go anywhere from there. Waah, just read that the spellsword needs proficiency with all types of armour, so this build doesn't work this way. You'd probably have to throw in 1 level of fighter and then dragon disciple might not be the best option for 9 levels...
Ithilorien 08-17-04, 11:36 PM	For a core-only battle bard you could try the basic "bardbarian" build (bard 16/barbarian 4). I only played this up to level 10, but he seemed to fare pretty well, and ahs a fun 'Nordic Skald' feel . . . 4d12 hit points is a decent boost, you also get +16 BAB for four iterative attacks, a couple uses of rage, and a higher fort save.