Bard as combat medic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard as combat medic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Running Bear
02-12-04, 01:16 PM After playing a bard a few times I began to appreciate a new roll for the bard that I havent really seen talked about explicitly.

Maybe it is just the group I play with but the Clerics dont really want to stand in the back and heal the fighters. They would rather buff up and wade into the fight. And in most cases they fight as good or better than the fighters.

This has led to me taking the roll of combat medic. If someone goes down my Bard is the one that stabilizes and tries to get them back up. Bards certainly dont have the magical healing omph of a Cleric, just not enough spells a day. But bards do have enough to try and keep someone from checking out for good.

In our gaming group I think the bard has saved more peoples lives than all the rest combined and absolutely is in the lead for most pickups.

With this in mind I was wondering what builds and or tricks for being the medic people have used.

Finally I believe that saying "everyone" knows that bards make good support characters really does the class a disservice. The truth is there are better buffers.

But anyone that has been making stabilization checks each round as their character slowly bleeds to death doesnt care that its not a Cleric saving thier life. I really do think that Combat Medic is a good niche for a bard to fill and welcome everyones tips, tricks, feats etc to help play up this potential.
KShaver
02-12-04, 02:20 PM I'm kinda playing a medic bard. The party needed a healer and I had planned on playing a barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple (don't groan, this is the one and only time I've considered it). I rearranged the character a little to heal, most notibly I switched my sorcerer levels over to bard levels.

Bard healing spells are actually pretty good, its got to do with the fact that bards get full caster level, even if though they get a slow spell progression. Heres the important part though:

I picked up a wand of cure light wounds as part of the character's starting gear, and maxed out my use magic device skill as well as took magical aptitude. This gave the character a +11 (7 ranks, +2 charisma, +2 magical aptitude) use magic device check at 4th level, and meant that the character might in some instances be able to use personal spells for something besides healing. Using a wand is DC 20, so I only need to roll a 9 to get the wand to function, and it also means I can't fail 10 or more and suffer a mishap with it.

In only 3 game sessions that wand has saved our but more times than I care to count. It'll run out soon the way we're blowing charges on it, but I'm pretty sure the party is going to chip in to replace it...actually they kind of have to or there won't be much healing to go around for the next adventure.
Snow Savant
02-12-04, 02:29 PM Summon Monster III summons you 1 Protectar (Miniature's Handbook). SM IV gets you 1-3, SM V gets you 2-5.

I like to summon these guys, whether as a Bard, Cleric, or Mage when I know I have a tough fight coming up to both cure wounds and make stabilization checks (with they do well).

Literally, keep these guys in the background to perform these healing services ... or alternately, to give bonuses to the party members via Aid Another Ally. If the enemy chooses to target these guys, great ... that's one less attack on my party-mates. And Protectars have decent AC to boot, so it's not like a walk in the park for said opponents.
PhaedrusXY
02-12-04, 02:37 PM You don't even need to use the Use Magic Device skill to use a wand of Cure ### Wounds. The spells are on your spell list as a bard, so you can use the wands with no problems.
CompleteSatori
02-12-04, 02:45 PM Actually Phaedrus, hes got to buy an Arcane wand of CLW to cast it without UMD, and since Bards are the only arcane casters who get CLW, the wand has to be made by one, thus higher caster level, thus higher wand price... I think these are the right numbers... CLW from a Cleric as a first level wand/first level caster is only 375 gold, whereas first level wand/first level caster Bard is base price 1500 gold. Makes a big difference in character creation.
KShaver
02-12-04, 03:05 PM Originally posted by CompleteSatori
Actually Phaedrus, hes got to buy an Arcane wand of CLW to cast it without UMD, and since Bards are the only arcane casters who get CLW, the wand has to be made by one, thus higher caster level, thus higher wand price... I think these are the right numbers... CLW from a Cleric as a first level wand/first level caster is only 375 gold, whereas first level wand/first level caster Bard is base price 1500 gold. Makes a big difference in character creation.

Correct as far as why UMD was needed. The standard wand of CLW is considered to be divine. Arcane versions are possible, but they would be rare and more expensive.

Your costs are off a little, base cost for a wand is caster level x spell level x 750:

Divine wand of CLW (1st level min) - 750 - heals d8+1
Arcane wand of CLW (2nd level min) - 1500 - heals d8+2

Wands of cure minor are only 375 and will stabilize people, but the CLW is much more efficient. Since there were no party clerics, and because my money was limited, efficiency was my top concern.
Druid Roxors
02-12-04, 03:16 PM I don't have my books with me, but im pretty sure that you can get a prestige class (specially with all those spare skillpoints bards get) which would give you access to a Prestige domain. You could get Divine Disciple or Contemplative and Adquire the healing Domain. That way you can cast all healing spells from wands, staves and scrolls, AND add all those spells into your spell list. (although this can be used to do other intresting stuff like making your bard shoot disintegrate or destruction)

Note: you get to cast all cure spells at their apropriate level (CLW-1, CMW-2 etc. and "Heal"!!

Edit: Well, after some thought I found that these spells would still be arcane (although, if a wizard adquired this domain he could create arcane wands and staffs with a decent minimum CL) The only advantage it would give you is the ability to cast Heal and mass heal (if you can find a wizard who did this AND crafts staffs)
Artexerxees
02-12-04, 03:54 PM A Bards healing spells are nice to have but you are putting your character at one disadvantage if all you do is wait to heal - you don't get to do the 'killing blow.' Having the two feats like point blank shot and precise shot work great with that composite short bow while you sing for inspiration. You're not using spells, your wounding your enemies, and you can wait for the opportune time to cure. However, Bard spells do not do damage like a flash in the pan and you have to cast again. Bard spells tend to linger, they tend to last from one round to another so you don't have to keep casting spells. This gives the Bard leeway to cast glitterdust or sleep and the like then use the bow on the appropriate enemies. Thus saving your spells and abilities from one encounter to another. If you play a Bard support character, you have to have the Haste spell. This of course is in conjunction with magical devices that heal so you can use spells for other things besides healing.
KShaver
02-12-04, 04:27 PM Originally posted by Artexerxees
Bard spells tend to linger, they tend to last from one round to another so you don't have to keep casting spells.

The extra duration on bardsongs is definately an advantage. Inspire courage will last most of an encounter even if you stop the song the 2nd round of a fight. Which is very usefull when you've suddenly found you need to heal your compatriots on round 2.
Snow Savant
02-12-04, 05:21 PM The problem with the "Combat Medic" concept, is that it tends to have more of a reactive angle than a proactive angle. Which tactically, is weaker, for a Bard. Art's prior post is hitting a similar nerve.

I don't like my single-classed Bards to have Cures as chosen spells. I find more use for them to be Diviners (Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, etc.). Via divinations, I can anticipate upcoming combat. That's when I summon 1 or more Protectars (via a Wand usually) prior to combat to use their Heal checks and cast Cures, since I really don't want to be healing in combat. I want to either be dishing out the beats (Archery), amplifying the beats (Song), or Charming/Illusioning.

Bards are best used in their 5th man capacity to finish fights faster and with more impact. The Divination/Summoning tactic mentioned earlier is more viable around levels 6-7 and above, but it consistently pays off and I've never regretted not taking a Cure spell as a result. I understand your point about liking the Bard to play Medic and be capable at providing those all-important heal checks, but I don't neccessarily see that as a role best played for a PC. Cohorts, summonees, NPC's and the like are best for such actions. Especially when they can provide those heal checks while you are turning the tide of the battle with a well-timed Glitterdust or Charm Monster spell.

Keep in mind, those intel-gathering Divinations allow other good prep actions for your party as well ... swallowing potions, buffing, etc. Leaving Round 1 of the combat to be assertive, proactive hard-core attack instead of posturing to buff and re-position.

XO,
Snow :cloud9:
zudbash
02-12-04, 06:38 PM KShaver wrote: Correct as far as why UMD was needed. The standard wand of CLW is considered to be divine. Arcane versions are possible, but they would be rare and more expensive.

Not true in 3.0, as the FAQ clearly states that wands do not come in arcane or divine versions. And I've never seen anything in 3.5 to suggest that this rule was changed.
CompleteSatori
02-12-04, 07:49 PM Righto, just looked on the wrong row for price list, 375 is 0 level spells.
PhaedrusXY
02-12-04, 08:56 PM Originally posted by zudbash
Not true in 3.0, as the FAQ clearly states that wands do not come in arcane or divine versions. And I've never seen anything in 3.5 to suggest that this rule was changed. I didn't think they did either, but I'm not sure. I've never seen anyone make the distinction in the games I've played in, but then again, I don't think it's ever came up.

Edit: The only thing I know of that addresses this in the SRD is the following: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
There is nothing in there to indicate the separation of Arcane and Divine wands and staves, and there is nothing in the descriptions of wands and staves that I could find either. As far as I know, the distinction between arcane and divine is only done with scrolls.
Druid Roxors
02-12-04, 09:07 PM Intresting... this might prove useful... Ill try to check on it on the Faqs and other sources
Balthanon
02-12-04, 09:55 PM As others have said, your bard shouldn't need to bother with Use Magic Device in order to use a wand of cure light wounds. However, if you have a ranger or paladin in the group, even if they don't have spells yet, you might want to pick up wands for them as well. They can also use wands of cure light wounds (and other spells on their spell lists) without bothering with Use Magic Device.

Also, it's generally accepted that the only way you can add spells to an arcane spell list through domains is if you have no divine classes. Thus, divine disciple, contemplative, and many other classes aren't legitimate means of doing this as they require divine spellcasting in the first place and/or only advance divine spellcasting. There are classes that allow you to do it (sacred exorcist for exorcism, horned harbinger for death, and divine oracle for divination), but as far as I know, there are none that allow you to pick a new domain on your own.
KShaver
02-13-04, 09:17 AM Originally posted by Balthanon
As others have said, your bard shouldn't need to bother with Use Magic Device in order to use a wand of cure light wounds.

Hmm, it seems you are correct.

However, if you have a ranger or paladin in the group, even if they don't have spells yet, you might want to pick up wands for them as well.

We have one of each, but as they're the two main tanks it doesn't make much sense to have them hold onto the party's main source of healing. We haven't had a chance to pick up more yet, and no one else was quite forward thinking enough to buy one. Thus the one wand we have is on the utility bard. Not having to roll will help, I'll bring this up this Sunday when we play again.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Running Bear 02-12-04, 01:16 PM	After playing a bard a few times I began to appreciate a new roll for the bard that I havent really seen talked about explicitly. Maybe it is just the group I play with but the Clerics dont really want to stand in the back and heal the fighters. They would rather buff up and wade into the fight. And in most cases they fight as good or better than the fighters. This has led to me taking the roll of combat medic. If someone goes down my Bard is the one that stabilizes and tries to get them back up. Bards certainly dont have the magical healing omph of a Cleric, just not enough spells a day. But bards do have enough to try and keep someone from checking out for good. In our gaming group I think the bard has saved more peoples lives than all the rest combined and absolutely is in the lead for most pickups. With this in mind I was wondering what builds and or tricks for being the medic people have used. Finally I believe that saying "everyone" knows that bards make good support characters really does the class a disservice. The truth is there are better buffers. But anyone that has been making stabilization checks each round as their character slowly bleeds to death doesnt care that its not a Cleric saving thier life. I really do think that Combat Medic is a good niche for a bard to fill and welcome everyones tips, tricks, feats etc to help play up this potential.
KShaver 02-12-04, 02:20 PM	I'm kinda playing a medic bard. The party needed a healer and I had planned on playing a barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple (don't groan, this is the one and only time I've considered it). I rearranged the character a little to heal, most notibly I switched my sorcerer levels over to bard levels. Bard healing spells are actually pretty good, its got to do with the fact that bards get full caster level, even if though they get a slow spell progression. Heres the important part though: I picked up a wand of cure light wounds as part of the character's starting gear, and maxed out my use magic device skill as well as took magical aptitude. This gave the character a +11 (7 ranks, +2 charisma, +2 magical aptitude) use magic device check at 4th level, and meant that the character might in some instances be able to use personal spells for something besides healing. Using a wand is DC 20, so I only need to roll a 9 to get the wand to function, and it also means I can't fail 10 or more and suffer a mishap with it. In only 3 game sessions that wand has saved our but more times than I care to count. It'll run out soon the way we're blowing charges on it, but I'm pretty sure the party is going to chip in to replace it...actually they kind of have to or there won't be much healing to go around for the next adventure.
Snow Savant 02-12-04, 02:29 PM	Summon Monster III summons you 1 Protectar (Miniature's Handbook). SM IV gets you 1-3, SM V gets you 2-5. I like to summon these guys, whether as a Bard, Cleric, or Mage when I know I have a tough fight coming up to both cure wounds and make stabilization checks (with they do well). Literally, keep these guys in the background to perform these healing services ... or alternately, to give bonuses to the party members via Aid Another Ally. If the enemy chooses to target these guys, great ... that's one less attack on my party-mates. And Protectars have decent AC to boot, so it's not like a walk in the park for said opponents.
PhaedrusXY 02-12-04, 02:37 PM	You don't even need to use the Use Magic Device skill to use a wand of Cure ### Wounds. The spells are on your spell list as a bard, so you can use the wands with no problems.
CompleteSatori 02-12-04, 02:45 PM	Actually Phaedrus, hes got to buy an Arcane wand of CLW to cast it without UMD, and since Bards are the only arcane casters who get CLW, the wand has to be made by one, thus higher caster level, thus higher wand price... I think these are the right numbers... CLW from a Cleric as a first level wand/first level caster is only 375 gold, whereas first level wand/first level caster Bard is base price 1500 gold. Makes a big difference in character creation.
KShaver 02-12-04, 03:05 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Actually Phaedrus, hes got to buy an Arcane wand of CLW to cast it without UMD, and since Bards are the only arcane casters who get CLW, the wand has to be made by one, thus higher caster level, thus higher wand price... I think these are the right numbers... CLW from a Cleric as a first level wand/first level caster is only 375 gold, whereas first level wand/first level caster Bard is base price 1500 gold. Makes a big difference in character creation. Correct as far as why UMD was needed. The standard wand of CLW is considered to be divine. Arcane versions are possible, but they would be rare and more expensive. Your costs are off a little, base cost for a wand is caster level x spell level x 750: Divine wand of CLW (1st level min) - 750 - heals d8+1 Arcane wand of CLW (2nd level min) - 1500 - heals d8+2 Wands of cure minor are only 375 and will stabilize people, but the CLW is much more efficient. Since there were no party clerics, and because my money was limited, efficiency was my top concern.
Druid Roxors 02-12-04, 03:16 PM	I don't have my books with me, but im pretty sure that you can get a prestige class (specially with all those spare skillpoints bards get) which would give you access to a Prestige domain. You could get Divine Disciple or Contemplative and Adquire the healing Domain. That way you can cast all healing spells from wands, staves and scrolls, AND add all those spells into your spell list. (although this can be used to do other intresting stuff like making your bard shoot disintegrate or destruction) Note: you get to cast all cure spells at their apropriate level (CLW-1, CMW-2 etc. and "Heal"!! Edit: Well, after some thought I found that these spells would still be arcane (although, if a wizard adquired this domain he could create arcane wands and staffs with a decent minimum CL) The only advantage it would give you is the ability to cast Heal and mass heal (if you can find a wizard who did this AND crafts staffs)
Artexerxees 02-12-04, 03:54 PM	A Bards healing spells are nice to have but you are putting your character at one disadvantage if all you do is wait to heal - you don't get to do the 'killing blow.' Having the two feats like point blank shot and precise shot work great with that composite short bow while you sing for inspiration. You're not using spells, your wounding your enemies, and you can wait for the opportune time to cure. However, Bard spells do not do damage like a flash in the pan and you have to cast again. Bard spells tend to linger, they tend to last from one round to another so you don't have to keep casting spells. This gives the Bard leeway to cast glitterdust or sleep and the like then use the bow on the appropriate enemies. Thus saving your spells and abilities from one encounter to another. If you play a Bard support character, you have to have the Haste spell. This of course is in conjunction with magical devices that heal so you can use spells for other things besides healing.
KShaver 02-12-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Artexerxees Bard spells tend to linger, they tend to last from one round to another so you don't have to keep casting spells. The extra duration on bardsongs is definately an advantage. Inspire courage will last most of an encounter even if you stop the song the 2nd round of a fight. Which is very usefull when you've suddenly found you need to heal your compatriots on round 2.
Snow Savant 02-12-04, 05:21 PM	The problem with the "Combat Medic" concept, is that it tends to have more of a reactive angle than a proactive angle. Which tactically, is weaker, for a Bard. Art's prior post is hitting a similar nerve. I don't like my single-classed Bards to have Cures as chosen spells. I find more use for them to be Diviners (Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, etc.). Via divinations, I can anticipate upcoming combat. That's when I summon 1 or more Protectars (via a Wand usually) prior to combat to use their Heal checks and cast Cures, since I really don't want to be healing in combat. I want to either be dishing out the beats (Archery), amplifying the beats (Song), or Charming/Illusioning. Bards are best used in their 5th man capacity to finish fights faster and with more impact. The Divination/Summoning tactic mentioned earlier is more viable around levels 6-7 and above, but it consistently pays off and I've never regretted not taking a Cure spell as a result. I understand your point about liking the Bard to play Medic and be capable at providing those all-important heal checks, but I don't neccessarily see that as a role best played for a PC. Cohorts, summonees, NPC's and the like are best for such actions. Especially when they can provide those heal checks while you are turning the tide of the battle with a well-timed Glitterdust or Charm Monster spell. Keep in mind, those intel-gathering Divinations allow other good prep actions for your party as well ... swallowing potions, buffing, etc. Leaving Round 1 of the combat to be assertive, proactive hard-core attack instead of posturing to buff and re-position. XO, Snow :cloud9:
zudbash 02-12-04, 06:38 PM	KShaver wrote: Correct as far as why UMD was needed. The standard wand of CLW is considered to be divine. Arcane versions are possible, but they would be rare and more expensive. Not true in 3.0, as the FAQ clearly states that wands do not come in arcane or divine versions. And I've never seen anything in 3.5 to suggest that this rule was changed.
CompleteSatori 02-12-04, 07:49 PM	Righto, just looked on the wrong row for price list, 375 is 0 level spells.
PhaedrusXY 02-12-04, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by zudbash Not true in 3.0, as the FAQ clearly states that wands do not come in arcane or divine versions. And I've never seen anything in 3.5 to suggest that this rule was changed. I didn't think they did either, but I'm not sure. I've never seen anyone make the distinction in the games I've played in, but then again, I don't think it's ever came up. Edit: The only thing I know of that addresses this in the SRD is the following: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. There is nothing in there to indicate the separation of Arcane and Divine wands and staves, and there is nothing in the descriptions of wands and staves that I could find either. As far as I know, the distinction between arcane and divine is only done with scrolls.
Druid Roxors 02-12-04, 09:07 PM	Intresting... this might prove useful... Ill try to check on it on the Faqs and other sources
Balthanon 02-12-04, 09:55 PM	As others have said, your bard shouldn't need to bother with Use Magic Device in order to use a wand of cure light wounds. However, if you have a ranger or paladin in the group, even if they don't have spells yet, you might want to pick up wands for them as well. They can also use wands of cure light wounds (and other spells on their spell lists) without bothering with Use Magic Device. Also, it's generally accepted that the only way you can add spells to an arcane spell list through domains is if you have no divine classes. Thus, divine disciple, contemplative, and many other classes aren't legitimate means of doing this as they require divine spellcasting in the first place and/or only advance divine spellcasting. There are classes that allow you to do it (sacred exorcist for exorcism, horned harbinger for death, and divine oracle for divination), but as far as I know, there are none that allow you to pick a new domain on your own.
KShaver 02-13-04, 09:17 AM	Originally posted by Balthanon As others have said, your bard shouldn't need to bother with Use Magic Device in order to use a wand of cure light wounds. Hmm, it seems you are correct. However, if you have a ranger or paladin in the group, even if they don't have spells yet, you might want to pick up wands for them as well. We have one of each, but as they're the two main tanks it doesn't make much sense to have them hold onto the party's main source of healing. We haven't had a chance to pick up more yet, and no one else was quite forward thinking enough to buy one. Thus the one wand we have is on the utility bard. Not having to roll will help, I'll bring this up this Sunday when we play again.