Bard Assassin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard Assassin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Exileman
11-22-06, 04:40 PM I've been wanting to make this character for a while. A bard assassin. I'm just not sure the best way to do it. I have some ideas, but i wanted to see what you guys/girls/possibly non-gender specific individuals have to say. I want the focus to be on the bard levels and eventually assassin, but some multiclassing i can live with. What i don't want is "take 1 level of bard and X levels of rogue". So, if you individuals can think of some good thoughts, i'd REALLY appreciate it.
Doomed_Penguin
11-22-06, 04:48 PM I think it's cool, double the modify memory, hehehe... but i don't really know how to help you. Whatever you do, it'll be underpowered, but you probably knew that. Maybe try focusing on things to max out your people skills, like bluff and charm spells. Maybe some combat help, like Imp. Feint and bladeweave and distract assailant and such. And be cunning, lead your victims into traps and such. You know what, I'm going to go make my own bard/assassin now. I'll help you more later. It's underpowered, but the flavor is DELICIOUS!!!
Doomed_Penguin
11-22-06, 04:50 PM Sorry about the last post, God I'm so ADD. But focus on combat and people skills. You don't even need hide and move silently. It would be really fun to go gestalt Bard//Rogue/Assassin. And make sure you look at every square inch of Comp. Adv.
Mordamir
11-22-06, 05:02 PM Well it depens on what do you want to focus. You can try with a simple: Bard 5/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8.
BAB:14, plenty of skills, Lvl 9 Spells from sorcerer and bard list, lvl 3 Assassin spells, use poison, uncanny dodge, 6d6 sneak attack, and with unseer seen you can pick Hunter's Eye (swift 1rnd) from PHII to get caster/3 sneak attack so it can be an extra 6d6 maybe 8d6 with song of arcane power.

Also you get a nondetection and free silent spell to enhance your assassin role. Good luck.
FriendlyFrog
11-23-06, 03:41 AM Well it depens on what do you want to focus. You can try with a simple: Bard 5/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8.
I might change that build into Rogue 3/Bard 2/Assassin 5/Sublime chord 2/Unseen seer 8. You don't need those Bard level for anything, so why not take Trapfinding and some more sneak attack and skill points?
Mordamir
11-23-06, 09:12 AM You are right FriendlyFrog but Exileman wanted to focus more on bard than one or 2 lvls so that's what i proposed that build but i know it's suboptimal :P

With the 5 lvls of bard you can pick Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn to add CHA to attacks with slashing weapons. Also going with Bard 5 you get lvl 2 spells from bard like invisibility, blindness, hold person or silence all of them very useful when playing an assassin.

Also you can drop 1 lvl of bard to get one of Rogue and still get lvl 2 spells 1D6 SA, more skills and trapfinding or drop 2 to get Rogue and Spellthief for 2d6 SA in 2 lvls.

Rogue 1/Bard 4/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8 7D6 SA
Bonzai
11-24-06, 11:52 AM I had a Bard Assasin as a villian in a campaign once, and he was GREAT. I don't remember the exact build, I think it was something like Bard 10/Assasin 3/Zhent Spy 2. The guy used his reputation as a bard to waltz into a local lords keep, and perform for a celebration. After seducing a minor noble woman, he left her a sleep in her room, disguised himself as a guard (ring of the chameleon), Charmed/suggested/Dominated the Lords own bodyguard into slaying the lord. He then sounded the alarm, and in the confusion slipped right back into the Lady's room with none the wiser.

The party had to solve the murder mystery, and find out who was behind it. All the while, they had to deal with random people trying to kill them. All with memories of different people getting them to do it (the Bard in disguise). Eventually they tracked him down and defeated him. He wasn't a combat specialist, but the way he could manipulate people and infiltrate was incredible. Made for a great villian.
rilem
11-24-06, 02:46 PM Bard and Assassin classes don't synergize that well. You can make a bard that's an assassin, or an Assassin that sings, and probably do better. But here's another option:

Paladin2/Bard8/ImaskariVengeanceTaker10
BAB: 15 Saves: 8/13/13 + Cha
Casting: As 13th level Bard (5th level spells)
Music: As 10th level Bard (Devoted Performer)
Smite: As 10th level Paladin (Devoted Performer)
Sneak Attack +4d6 (I think)

Imaskari Vengeance Taker is from Underdark and is one of the few Death Attack classes that continues Arcane Spell Progression. It gets sneak attack, the ability to scry on targets, etc. It also gets some spectacular bonuses vs. specific enemies — +10 damage per hit, etc.

The Paladin levels can be replaced, BTW. They're there so you can take Devoted Performer and thus be lawful — Vegeance Takers must be lawful — without resorting to an alignment shift.

On balance, the Unseen Seer Build gets much better casting (but only 13 BAB, not 14) and skills (Unseen Seer really should have 4/level). This one has the advantage of simplicity (2 classes, 1 PrC), is better in melee against a specific foe and avoids that Sublime Chord stuff.

The real downside is that IVT inexplicably doesn't get Death Attack until Level 10 — what an awful capstone ability (Black Flame Zealot, which is essentially the Divine Version of this class, gets it at level 1). That means that you can't pull off a Death Attack in this build until Bard7/Pal1/IVT10. But since Death Attack kind of bites anyway, it's not that big a loss.

Speaking of BFZ, Here's another alternative:

DivineBard8/Ninja2/BlackFlameZealot10
Uses the Divine Bard variant from Unearthed Arcana (available through the System Reference Document sites) BAB 14, Caster level 13, Wis-based Casting, Wis to AC, Ghost Step, Sudden strike +1d6, Sneak +3d6, much earlier Death Attack/Poison use and gets trapfinding. If you don't want trapfinding, you could use Swordsage (and shadow hand maneuvers) instead.
Hanniball
11-24-06, 06:46 PM Bard 3/Rog 2/Assassin 8/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 6

BAB +12, saves 6/17/12, +8D6 sneak attack, 8th level sor/bard spells, 4th level assassin spells, evasion, HiPS, Imp. uncanny dodge, Impromptu sneak attack, ranged legerdemain, Inspire courage/competance, and Death attack

This uses the Bard's 0th level spells (Mage Hand) and the Assassin's 3rd level arcane spells combined to qualify for SC and AT. The Arcane Trickster adds more damage potential and 2 guaranteed SA's/day but reduces the Bardic aspect without access to SC's songs.

Either way...just my 2 cp
FallFromGrace
11-24-06, 07:36 PM By "assassin", do you mean the actual prestige class? I suppose that you want it for its sneak attack dice and/or death attack... But in that case I think that using the Nightmare Spinner prestige class (from Complete Mage), as I think that Rogue 2 / Assassin 1 / Nightmare Spinner 5 / Arcane Trickster 2 gains more benefits than Assassin 10, all things considered.

Or perhaps something like Bard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Lyric Thaumaturge 1/ Nightmare Spinner 5 / Lyric Thaumaturge 2-9, for an extreme focus on barding.

:)
EldonG
11-24-06, 07:49 PM hmmm...maybe a Bard/Assassin/Chameleon?
X-Codes
11-24-06, 08:28 PM IMO Bard and Assassin synergize plenty well, you just have to think about it differently. Instead of being completely invisible to everyone, you let people see you and just not give you any thought by using innocuous disguises (aided by the Alter Self spell, of course) and subtle spellcasting.

You will end up with a very broad base of spells, with about 6 spells both known and per day from levels 1 to 4. If you can get to 26 charisma without costing you any Intelligence, then go for it. Otherwise, max-out Intelligence. Don't worry so much about Dexterity, since you should be avoiding combat, although decent Strength and Constitution scores still help out as always.

Use your Bard spells known to get buffs and utility spells, while using your Assassin spells to get save-or-sucks and maybe one or two more utility spells that the Bard levels don't cover. As for Bardic Music, you would probably do well to get Ability Focus (Suggestion) and use your Bardic Music uses to fascinate and implant suggestions instead of inspiring courage, although you can do pretty good at that, too, if you pick up a Vest of Legends and Song of the Heart (replacing Inspire Greatness) to get +5 with Inspirational Boost. Either way, Subsonics is also a must.

Other than that, just reduce MAD with Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality. Don't bother with Weapon Finesse.
Exileman
11-25-06, 01:30 AM X-codes, you pegged why i wanted to make a bard/assassin. And all of your suggestions were great. THank you very much.
Bonzai
11-25-06, 01:43 PM I just double checked, and I think the build I used was Bard 10/Assasin 3/ Zhent Spy 2. Bard 10 for dominate person, assasin 3 for death attack, sneak attack, and uncanny dodge, and Zhent Spy for Cover Identity, and a sneak attack.

Like I said, he made for a great villian. Being able to bluff, disguise himself, and charm and compell people to do his work for him. When forced to fight, guerrila tactics were his preference. Disguised, sneak and death attacks with with a poisoned blade and an arcane strike.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Exileman 11-22-06, 04:40 PM	I've been wanting to make this character for a while. A bard assassin. I'm just not sure the best way to do it. I have some ideas, but i wanted to see what you guys/girls/possibly non-gender specific individuals have to say. I want the focus to be on the bard levels and eventually assassin, but some multiclassing i can live with. What i don't want is "take 1 level of bard and X levels of rogue". So, if you individuals can think of some good thoughts, i'd REALLY appreciate it.
Doomed_Penguin 11-22-06, 04:48 PM	I think it's cool, double the modify memory, hehehe... but i don't really know how to help you. Whatever you do, it'll be underpowered, but you probably knew that. Maybe try focusing on things to max out your people skills, like bluff and charm spells. Maybe some combat help, like Imp. Feint and bladeweave and distract assailant and such. And be cunning, lead your victims into traps and such. You know what, I'm going to go make my own bard/assassin now. I'll help you more later. It's underpowered, but the flavor is DELICIOUS!!!
Doomed_Penguin 11-22-06, 04:50 PM	Sorry about the last post, God I'm so ADD. But focus on combat and people skills. You don't even need hide and move silently. It would be really fun to go gestalt Bard//Rogue/Assassin. And make sure you look at every square inch of Comp. Adv.
Mordamir 11-22-06, 05:02 PM	Well it depens on what do you want to focus. You can try with a simple: Bard 5/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8. BAB:14, plenty of skills, Lvl 9 Spells from sorcerer and bard list, lvl 3 Assassin spells, use poison, uncanny dodge, 6d6 sneak attack, and with unseer seen you can pick Hunter's Eye (swift 1rnd) from PHII to get caster/3 sneak attack so it can be an extra 6d6 maybe 8d6 with song of arcane power. Also you get a nondetection and free silent spell to enhance your assassin role. Good luck.
FriendlyFrog 11-23-06, 03:41 AM	Well it depens on what do you want to focus. You can try with a simple: Bard 5/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8. I might change that build into Rogue 3/Bard 2/Assassin 5/Sublime chord 2/Unseen seer 8. You don't need those Bard level for anything, so why not take Trapfinding and some more sneak attack and skill points?
Mordamir 11-23-06, 09:12 AM	You are right FriendlyFrog but Exileman wanted to focus more on bard than one or 2 lvls so that's what i proposed that build but i know it's suboptimal :P With the 5 lvls of bard you can pick Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn to add CHA to attacks with slashing weapons. Also going with Bard 5 you get lvl 2 spells from bard like invisibility, blindness, hold person or silence all of them very useful when playing an assassin. Also you can drop 1 lvl of bard to get one of Rogue and still get lvl 2 spells 1D6 SA, more skills and trapfinding or drop 2 to get Rogue and Spellthief for 2d6 SA in 2 lvls. Rogue 1/Bard 4/Assassin 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8 7D6 SA
Bonzai 11-24-06, 11:52 AM	I had a Bard Assasin as a villian in a campaign once, and he was GREAT. I don't remember the exact build, I think it was something like Bard 10/Assasin 3/Zhent Spy 2. The guy used his reputation as a bard to waltz into a local lords keep, and perform for a celebration. After seducing a minor noble woman, he left her a sleep in her room, disguised himself as a guard (ring of the chameleon), Charmed/suggested/Dominated the Lords own bodyguard into slaying the lord. He then sounded the alarm, and in the confusion slipped right back into the Lady's room with none the wiser. The party had to solve the murder mystery, and find out who was behind it. All the while, they had to deal with random people trying to kill them. All with memories of different people getting them to do it (the Bard in disguise). Eventually they tracked him down and defeated him. He wasn't a combat specialist, but the way he could manipulate people and infiltrate was incredible. Made for a great villian.
rilem 11-24-06, 02:46 PM	Bard and Assassin classes don't synergize that well. You can make a bard that's an assassin, or an Assassin that sings, and probably do better. But here's another option: Paladin2/Bard8/ImaskariVengeanceTaker10 BAB: 15 Saves: 8/13/13 + Cha Casting: As 13th level Bard (5th level spells) Music: As 10th level Bard (Devoted Performer) Smite: As 10th level Paladin (Devoted Performer) Sneak Attack +4d6 (I think) Imaskari Vengeance Taker is from Underdark and is one of the few Death Attack classes that continues Arcane Spell Progression. It gets sneak attack, the ability to scry on targets, etc. It also gets some spectacular bonuses vs. specific enemies — +10 damage per hit, etc. The Paladin levels can be replaced, BTW. They're there so you can take Devoted Performer and thus be lawful — Vegeance Takers must be lawful — without resorting to an alignment shift. On balance, the Unseen Seer Build gets much better casting (but only 13 BAB, not 14) and skills (Unseen Seer really should have 4/level). This one has the advantage of simplicity (2 classes, 1 PrC), is better in melee against a specific foe and avoids that Sublime Chord stuff. The real downside is that IVT inexplicably doesn't get Death Attack until Level 10 — what an awful capstone ability (Black Flame Zealot, which is essentially the Divine Version of this class, gets it at level 1). That means that you can't pull off a Death Attack in this build until Bard7/Pal1/IVT10. But since Death Attack kind of bites anyway, it's not that big a loss. Speaking of BFZ, Here's another alternative: DivineBard8/Ninja2/BlackFlameZealot10 Uses the Divine Bard variant from Unearthed Arcana (available through the System Reference Document sites) BAB 14, Caster level 13, Wis-based Casting, Wis to AC, Ghost Step, Sudden strike +1d6, Sneak +3d6, much earlier Death Attack/Poison use and gets trapfinding. If you don't want trapfinding, you could use Swordsage (and shadow hand maneuvers) instead.
Hanniball 11-24-06, 06:46 PM	Bard 3/Rog 2/Assassin 8/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Trickster 6 BAB +12, saves 6/17/12, +8D6 sneak attack, 8th level sor/bard spells, 4th level assassin spells, evasion, HiPS, Imp. uncanny dodge, Impromptu sneak attack, ranged legerdemain, Inspire courage/competance, and Death attack This uses the Bard's 0th level spells (Mage Hand) and the Assassin's 3rd level arcane spells combined to qualify for SC and AT. The Arcane Trickster adds more damage potential and 2 guaranteed SA's/day but reduces the Bardic aspect without access to SC's songs. Either way...just my 2 cp
FallFromGrace 11-24-06, 07:36 PM	By "assassin", do you mean the actual prestige class? I suppose that you want it for its sneak attack dice and/or death attack... But in that case I think that using the Nightmare Spinner prestige class (from Complete Mage), as I think that Rogue 2 / Assassin 1 / Nightmare Spinner 5 / Arcane Trickster 2 gains more benefits than Assassin 10, all things considered. Or perhaps something like Bard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Lyric Thaumaturge 1/ Nightmare Spinner 5 / Lyric Thaumaturge 2-9, for an extreme focus on barding. :)
EldonG 11-24-06, 07:49 PM	hmmm...maybe a Bard/Assassin/Chameleon?
X-Codes 11-24-06, 08:28 PM	IMO Bard and Assassin synergize plenty well, you just have to think about it differently. Instead of being completely invisible to everyone, you let people see you and just not give you any thought by using innocuous disguises (aided by the Alter Self spell, of course) and subtle spellcasting. You will end up with a very broad base of spells, with about 6 spells both known and per day from levels 1 to 4. If you can get to 26 charisma without costing you any Intelligence, then go for it. Otherwise, max-out Intelligence. Don't worry so much about Dexterity, since you should be avoiding combat, although decent Strength and Constitution scores still help out as always. Use your Bard spells known to get buffs and utility spells, while using your Assassin spells to get save-or-sucks and maybe one or two more utility spells that the Bard levels don't cover. As for Bardic Music, you would probably do well to get Ability Focus (Suggestion) and use your Bardic Music uses to fascinate and implant suggestions instead of inspiring courage, although you can do pretty good at that, too, if you pick up a Vest of Legends and Song of the Heart (replacing Inspire Greatness) to get +5 with Inspirational Boost. Either way, Subsonics is also a must. Other than that, just reduce MAD with Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality. Don't bother with Weapon Finesse.
Exileman 11-25-06, 01:30 AM	X-codes, you pegged why i wanted to make a bard/assassin. And all of your suggestions were great. THank you very much.
Bonzai 11-25-06, 01:43 PM	I just double checked, and I think the build I used was Bard 10/Assasin 3/ Zhent Spy 2. Bard 10 for dominate person, assasin 3 for death attack, sneak attack, and uncanny dodge, and Zhent Spy for Cover Identity, and a sneak attack. Like I said, he made for a great villian. Being able to bluff, disguise himself, and charm and compell people to do his work for him. When forced to fight, guerrila tactics were his preference. Disguised, sneak and death attacks with with a poisoned blade and an arcane strike.