Bard build help is needed. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard build help is needed. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
boytbpc
03-20-04, 12:34 AM I'm trying to build my first bard. We are using v 3.5 . All rules from all books are allowed. The bard is going to start out at first level, with a rapid progression most likely until 4th or 5th. The initial thougts are outlined below.

Gnome/Bard 1st lvl
STR 10
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 11
Cha 17

Skills (maxed unless otherwise posted)
Craft (Alchemy)
Decipher Script
Diplomacy
Gather Information (thinking about changing to Disguise self)
Sleight of hand (thinking about changing to move silently)
Spell craft
Use magic device
Perform (stringed instrument)

Feat
Extra Music (is this a bad idea?)

Spells
Fine tuning
Summon instrument
Read magic
lullaby

If something isn't listed it's because I haven't done it yet. Thanks for any help or ideas you may have. By the way, this is only my second V3.x character, so if you see any obvious flaws or concept errors please help.

Boytbpc
JosephKell
03-20-04, 12:43 AM If you think you are going to need to use Inspire Courage a lot, then Extra Music is great.

Skill Focus (Perform - Sing) and Combat Expertise are decent alternatives.

Bard -> War Chanter is effective. But only if you plan to use a lot of songs per day.

But straight Bard is also good. If you use your bardic musics, you'll fall in love with the class and never want to multiclass (and thus slow your acquisition of better/other music powers)

Perks of Inspire Courage: easy +1 to hit and damage for all your buds.
boytbpc
03-20-04, 08:09 AM I think I have decided to change the Sleight of Hand skill to Bluff, then at second level put another rank in it to get the synergy bonus to Diplomacy. Also at second level, adding 1 rank to the following skills to get synergy bonus'

Decipher script - +2 to Use Magic Device (Scrolls)
Spellcraft -+2 to Use Magic Device (Scrolls)

Add one to Perform (keep it maxed)
Then dump the rest between Disguise and Move silently.

I'm still thinking about changing Gather Information to Disguise self now, then at second start putting some ranks in Gather Information. Any ideas about that?
Su Ge
03-20-04, 09:27 AM You don't need extra music yet, as inspire courage is good but not very good yet. I would suggest an archery feat, so you can be useful in the back ranks at the low levels.

As for skills you will need to focus. I would agree with spellcraft, use magic device, and diplomacy. I would also suggest picking up a wide variety of languages so you can use your diplomacy. Don't fuss with disguise, change self can more or less take care of that. Bluff is not terribly good.

Finally, you need to take a look at Yekoj's Bard guide - it perhaps has some viewpoints I wouldn't agree with but on the whole it is pretty useful. Bards are underpowered overall, and you will need to fine tune your min-maxing to pull your weight in the party, so don't be shy.
TinManFan
03-20-04, 11:24 AM Since a lot of their useful spells (At least as I play it) are Enchantment, why not Spell Focus Enchantment as your 9th or 12th level feat? I agree using it early to benefit one or two spells is pretty meaningless but later on, can really put the DC's up nicely.
boytbpc
03-20-04, 02:34 PM I'm not to worried about being a threat to our enemies yet, because the party is of mixed levels. The other four members are 5th lvl; they are a Cleric, Rogue, Monk, and Wizard. Starting up with me will be a hexblade (we got killed last session). The DM just told us that we can start out at second level with the appropriate resources (900 gp). Also, being a gnomish bard, I want my character to use his pistol, and his alchemy a lot. That being said, do you still believe that Archery feats are the way to go?

Boytbpc
Aramas
03-20-04, 02:43 PM Do not change Gather Information to Disguise.
Gather Information is a very good skill. Whereas Disguise can easily be emulated with spells. Keep Diplomacy, Use Magic Device, and at least one Perform skill maxed each level. Gather Info is another good one to keep maxed as is Bluff. Sense Motive is a good one as well.
I wouldn't bother with Hide and Move Silently, leave that to the rogues and rangers, focus on your people skills.
Blade2718
03-20-04, 03:00 PM Bards make decent archers, or in your case, marksmen. Sing inspiration for a round or two, draw your gun and let 'em have it. I'm guessing the Craft(alchemy) is to keep you in gunpowder?

Gather Information can be emulated with Bardic Knowledge checks, but its good to have an alternate source of intel. Don't go nuts with ranks in it, though. Disguise is useless to keep maxed as a bard because the spell Disguise Self gives a HUGE boost to Disguise. Put in a few points if you think you're REALLY gonna need it; otherwise, leave it alone.

Use every availible means to keep Diplomacy high. As the most likely party frontman, you'll definitely need it. Five ranks of Knowlege(nobility) will give you a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy when used against the noble class. Similarly, Bluff and Sense Motive also give synergy bonuses to Diplomacy.

Spellcraft would only be useful if you intend to primarily be a bardic spellcaster. Five ranks does give a synergy bonus to UMD, as does Decipher Script. Five ranks each, and leave it alone.

Any extra skill points should go into langauges (can't employ diplomacy if you can't speak to 'em) and Knowlege skills. Don't max the Knowlege skills, but just a point or 2 so you can make Knowlege checks in case they come up. You ARE the Bard, after all.
boytbpc
03-20-04, 10:39 PM Here are my current skill list, and a short description of my plan.
Currently all of these skills are maxxed (still at 1st level).

Bluff - five ranks for synergy with Dimplomacy.
Craft (Alchemy) - get high enough to make gun powder.
Decipher script - five ranks for synergy with Use Magic Device.
Diplomacy - Maxxed.
Perform (String) - Maxxed, but thinking about changing to a new inst.
Spellcraft - five ranks for synergy with Use Magic Device.
Use Magic Device - Get high enough to fire off mid-level scrolls.

I've added two ranks to the following skills.

Concentration
Gather Information.

Now with feats. I still haven't given up my extra music. I think how usefull it will be to be able to sing FIVE times at first level, six at second, etc. I guess I just don't know how many times a day an average bard uses his music. If I change it, maybe to Spell casting prodigy or Skill focus-perform. I was thinking of taking Ancesteral Relic as my second feat and Words of Creation as my third.

I hate choosing feats. :twitch:

Boytbpc

P.S. Did you get my PM Su Ge?
JosephKell
03-20-04, 10:57 PM Actually Su Ge is right about languages.

Bards get it as a class skill that means they spend one skill point on a language.

I suggest taking as many as possible.

A cantrip spell that is great is Light.

My Level 3 Bard uses Light on his Sword to free up a hand... (or now so that he can use his hand to use his weapon... he was recently punished for attempted thievery...)
boytbpc
03-20-04, 11:23 PM My plan is to dump a point or two in languages ever level, until I can't find anymore. Languages are very important in our campaign, because my DM has made common VERY limited (as it should be as a trade language).
I'm still freaked about feats.
Talking about spells, I'm taking Read Magic, Detect Magic, Lullaby, and Message at first. Any thougts?

Boytbpc

P.S. - The party has a candle obera construct and an everburing torch with vocal activation. :)
Grim Sage
03-21-04, 05:23 AM Take a look at Dragon #311 for some very good Bard PrC's.

If you don't mind being Exalted, Nymph's Kiss and Words of Creation (BoED) might be worth taking.
boytbpc
03-21-04, 12:54 PM A question about concentration; how does it work? No seriously, I don't understand what I can do in a round while singing a song (not initiating). If I'm singing does that mean I can only take a move action, or can I take a standard action, or can I take both?
JosephKell
03-21-04, 02:30 PM I know what you mean. Continuing Bardic Music is a bit confusing.

All BM's require a standard action to start. And all require just a free action to continue with the exception of:
- Fascinate (and its derivative Suggestion) still require a standard action to continue.

I suggest you don't plan too far ahead. Things change and it sucks to have a good (and even a decent) plan go to waste.
boytbpc
03-21-04, 10:05 PM How about counter song? Also, does starting a BM provoke an attack of oppurtunity?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boytbpc 03-20-04, 12:34 AM	I'm trying to build my first bard. We are using v 3.5 . All rules from all books are allowed. The bard is going to start out at first level, with a rapid progression most likely until 4th or 5th. The initial thougts are outlined below. Gnome/Bard 1st lvl STR 10 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 11 Cha 17 Skills (maxed unless otherwise posted) Craft (Alchemy) Decipher Script Diplomacy Gather Information (thinking about changing to Disguise self) Sleight of hand (thinking about changing to move silently) Spell craft Use magic device Perform (stringed instrument) Feat Extra Music (is this a bad idea?) Spells Fine tuning Summon instrument Read magic lullaby If something isn't listed it's because I haven't done it yet. Thanks for any help or ideas you may have. By the way, this is only my second V3.x character, so if you see any obvious flaws or concept errors please help. Boytbpc
JosephKell 03-20-04, 12:43 AM	If you think you are going to need to use Inspire Courage a lot, then Extra Music is great. Skill Focus (Perform - Sing) and Combat Expertise are decent alternatives. Bard -> War Chanter is effective. But only if you plan to use a lot of songs per day. But straight Bard is also good. If you use your bardic musics, you'll fall in love with the class and never want to multiclass (and thus slow your acquisition of better/other music powers) Perks of Inspire Courage: easy +1 to hit and damage for all your buds.
boytbpc 03-20-04, 08:09 AM	I think I have decided to change the Sleight of Hand skill to Bluff, then at second level put another rank in it to get the synergy bonus to Diplomacy. Also at second level, adding 1 rank to the following skills to get synergy bonus' Decipher script - +2 to Use Magic Device (Scrolls) Spellcraft -+2 to Use Magic Device (Scrolls) Add one to Perform (keep it maxed) Then dump the rest between Disguise and Move silently. I'm still thinking about changing Gather Information to Disguise self now, then at second start putting some ranks in Gather Information. Any ideas about that?
Su Ge 03-20-04, 09:27 AM	You don't need extra music yet, as inspire courage is good but not very good yet. I would suggest an archery feat, so you can be useful in the back ranks at the low levels. As for skills you will need to focus. I would agree with spellcraft, use magic device, and diplomacy. I would also suggest picking up a wide variety of languages so you can use your diplomacy. Don't fuss with disguise, change self can more or less take care of that. Bluff is not terribly good. Finally, you need to take a look at Yekoj's Bard guide - it perhaps has some viewpoints I wouldn't agree with but on the whole it is pretty useful. Bards are underpowered overall, and you will need to fine tune your min-maxing to pull your weight in the party, so don't be shy.
TinManFan 03-20-04, 11:24 AM	Since a lot of their useful spells (At least as I play it) are Enchantment, why not Spell Focus Enchantment as your 9th or 12th level feat? I agree using it early to benefit one or two spells is pretty meaningless but later on, can really put the DC's up nicely.
boytbpc 03-20-04, 02:34 PM	I'm not to worried about being a threat to our enemies yet, because the party is of mixed levels. The other four members are 5th lvl; they are a Cleric, Rogue, Monk, and Wizard. Starting up with me will be a hexblade (we got killed last session). The DM just told us that we can start out at second level with the appropriate resources (900 gp). Also, being a gnomish bard, I want my character to use his pistol, and his alchemy a lot. That being said, do you still believe that Archery feats are the way to go? Boytbpc
Aramas 03-20-04, 02:43 PM	Do not change Gather Information to Disguise. Gather Information is a very good skill. Whereas Disguise can easily be emulated with spells. Keep Diplomacy, Use Magic Device, and at least one Perform skill maxed each level. Gather Info is another good one to keep maxed as is Bluff. Sense Motive is a good one as well. I wouldn't bother with Hide and Move Silently, leave that to the rogues and rangers, focus on your people skills.
Blade2718 03-20-04, 03:00 PM	Bards make decent archers, or in your case, marksmen. Sing inspiration for a round or two, draw your gun and let 'em have it. I'm guessing the Craft(alchemy) is to keep you in gunpowder? Gather Information can be emulated with Bardic Knowledge checks, but its good to have an alternate source of intel. Don't go nuts with ranks in it, though. Disguise is useless to keep maxed as a bard because the spell Disguise Self gives a HUGE boost to Disguise. Put in a few points if you think you're REALLY gonna need it; otherwise, leave it alone. Use every availible means to keep Diplomacy high. As the most likely party frontman, you'll definitely need it. Five ranks of Knowlege(nobility) will give you a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy when used against the noble class. Similarly, Bluff and Sense Motive also give synergy bonuses to Diplomacy. Spellcraft would only be useful if you intend to primarily be a bardic spellcaster. Five ranks does give a synergy bonus to UMD, as does Decipher Script. Five ranks each, and leave it alone. Any extra skill points should go into langauges (can't employ diplomacy if you can't speak to 'em) and Knowlege skills. Don't max the Knowlege skills, but just a point or 2 so you can make Knowlege checks in case they come up. You ARE the Bard, after all.
boytbpc 03-20-04, 10:39 PM	Here are my current skill list, and a short description of my plan. Currently all of these skills are maxxed (still at 1st level). Bluff - five ranks for synergy with Dimplomacy. Craft (Alchemy) - get high enough to make gun powder. Decipher script - five ranks for synergy with Use Magic Device. Diplomacy - Maxxed. Perform (String) - Maxxed, but thinking about changing to a new inst. Spellcraft - five ranks for synergy with Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device - Get high enough to fire off mid-level scrolls. I've added two ranks to the following skills. Concentration Gather Information. Now with feats. I still haven't given up my extra music. I think how usefull it will be to be able to sing FIVE times at first level, six at second, etc. I guess I just don't know how many times a day an average bard uses his music. If I change it, maybe to Spell casting prodigy or Skill focus-perform. I was thinking of taking Ancesteral Relic as my second feat and Words of Creation as my third. I hate choosing feats. :twitch: Boytbpc P.S. Did you get my PM Su Ge?
JosephKell 03-20-04, 10:57 PM	Actually Su Ge is right about languages. Bards get it as a class skill that means they spend one skill point on a language. I suggest taking as many as possible. A cantrip spell that is great is Light. My Level 3 Bard uses Light on his Sword to free up a hand... (or now so that he can use his hand to use his weapon... he was recently punished for attempted thievery...)
boytbpc 03-20-04, 11:23 PM	My plan is to dump a point or two in languages ever level, until I can't find anymore. Languages are very important in our campaign, because my DM has made common VERY limited (as it should be as a trade language). I'm still freaked about feats. Talking about spells, I'm taking Read Magic, Detect Magic, Lullaby, and Message at first. Any thougts? Boytbpc P.S. - The party has a candle obera construct and an everburing torch with vocal activation. :)
Grim Sage 03-21-04, 05:23 AM	Take a look at Dragon #311 for some very good Bard PrC's. If you don't mind being Exalted, Nymph's Kiss and Words of Creation (BoED) might be worth taking.
boytbpc 03-21-04, 12:54 PM	A question about concentration; how does it work? No seriously, I don't understand what I can do in a round while singing a song (not initiating). If I'm singing does that mean I can only take a move action, or can I take a standard action, or can I take both?
JosephKell 03-21-04, 02:30 PM	I know what you mean. Continuing Bardic Music is a bit confusing. All BM's require a standard action to start. And all require just a free action to continue with the exception of: - Fascinate (and its derivative Suggestion) still require a standard action to continue. I suggest you don't plan too far ahead. Things change and it sucks to have a good (and even a decent) plan go to waste.
boytbpc 03-21-04, 10:05 PM	How about counter song? Also, does starting a BM provoke an attack of oppurtunity?