Post/Author/DateTime	Post
calebjyoung 01-24-05, 02:22 AM	Our Personalized Feat Tree Looks something like this : LvL 1 1*-- Human Bonus Feat 1**-- My DM gives one bonus feat to everyone 3 6 9 12 15 18 I have been trying to think of feats that I would actually use in almost any encounter. Here's what I came up with. Words of Creation : Book of Exaulted Deeds Frequency : Often Prerequisite : Good Alinged, Base Will save : +5 (Bard lvl 6) Effect : Doubles Base Bardic effects Cost : Subdual Dammage Lingering Song : Complete Adventurer Frequency : Often Prerequisite : -None- Effect : Extends the duration of Bardic Effects Cost : -None- Extra Music : Complete Adventurer Frequency : Often, at low levels & with some prestiege class's Prerequisite : -None- Effect : Self Explanitory Cost : -None- Song of the Heart : Eberon - pg 60 Frequency : Often Prerequisite : ** I think you need to be LvL 3 ... Effect : Increases multiple aspects of Bardic Music Cost : -None- Disguise Spell : Complete Adventurer Frequency : Varies Prerequisite : Perform 9 - 6th lvl Effect : Cast Spells as part of a Performance (there are more dynamics to it than this.. but ya'll get the idea) Cost : -None- SubSonics : Complete Adventurer Frequency : Varies Prerequisite : Perform 10 - 7th lvl Effect : People can hear the music but don't know where its comming from & eliminates need for sight - see text for full description. Cost : -None- The following are Non-Bard Specific, but a good suggestion for most characters. Improved Init : PHB Quick Reconnoiter : Complete Adventurer (prereq : 5 listen&spot) - for a Bard, unavailble until after 7th lvl And for those of us with a high dex Weapon Finess : PHB Prerequisite : BAB +1 So My personal master list for optimizing a Bard with Feats : Lvl - Feat 1 - Lingering Song 1 - Weapon Finess 1 -Improv Initive 3 - Song of the Heart 6 - Words 9 - Quick Reconniter 12 - Disguise Spell 15 - Sub Sonics 18 - ?? - maybe extra music So if you can think of a better progression that gives feats used in just about every encounter for a Bard, please feel free to voice your opinion. Suggestions and Other Optimizations Accepted. Please note, some feats are not accesible in just any order. Please make sure your suggestion is in compliance with the prerequsites. -- Edit -- Even I have made mistakes and big thanks to all you great guys and gals for pointing out any indescrections my weak mind has made.
Eyeless Blond 01-24-05, 02:33 AM	Forget Weapon Finesse, at least if that's all the combat feats you're going for. Bards generally have no business being in melee range for any reason. The two exceptions are when there's truly noone else--in which case you're screwed anyway--or you're using a whip and standing just behind the fighter helping out with some battlefield control--in which case you should spend some feats on Combat Expertise and either Improved Trip or Disarm. Also, using Words of Creation really is a bad idea before level 6 or so, when you can actually absorb all that subdual and still stand up afterwards. By level 18, you usually have no reason taking Extra Music, unless you're a Seeker of the Song.
acvar 01-24-05, 10:05 AM	You can and should take song of the heart at level 3 (prereq = 6 levels perform). You can not take words of creation until level 6 (prereq = base will save +5). Unless you have a high point buy you will also find it dificult to meet the 15 int/15 cha at level 6 also. Improved inititave is great at low levels since buffers need to go first. Great fortitude is a must for a bard unless you like just dying to all the save or die spells or unless you are going to multi class a bit (soldier of light/paladin). If you go with the SoL/Paladin then power attack and divine might are musts as well as is devoted performer if you go paladin. Expertise and disarm make a good early set of feats for the bard that wants to contribute something once combat starts. You can expand on them with improved expertise and goad although this can be very dangerous. Improved toughness is great at mid levels. Arcane strike can allow the higher level bard to be a force in combat. Snowflake Wardance is neat, but generally just overkill unless you have power attack. I do not believe that Quick Reconnoiter is worth what it takes to get it. Extra song is really ony good at level 1 or 3 and you will be kicking yourself for taking it after a while unless you go for Seeker of Song. Words is powerfull, but not as powerfull as many think since it only doubles the base inpire courage, and it has all the downsides of an exalted feat. I have never seen a truelly exalted bard roleplayed, and lord knows my bards could never take the feat. They smoked, drank, and *****d all the time as well as lying cheating and ocasionally stealing, Uhhh... convincing people to give him thier money. There are plenty of great roleplaying feats for the bard as well. Negotiater is great for a low level bard. Disguise spell is great for the higher level bard that wants to cast a few spells without being noticed while playing for the king. ;-)
Kuroi Kenshi 01-24-05, 01:27 PM	Words is powerfull, but not as powerfull as many think since it only doubles the base inpire courage, and it has all the downsides of an exalted feat. I have never seen a truelly exalted bard roleplayed, and lord knows my bards could never take the feat. They smoked, drank, and *****d all the time as well as lying cheating and ocasionally stealing, Uhhh... convincing people to give him thier money. True, it has its downsides in the RP aspect, but in terms of power...well, it's not great if your IC is +1. But if you're a 7th or 8th level bard, you get to have your inspire courage function like a lv20 bard. I'd say anything that applies to multiple class abilities (since it can affect all songs) and lets you function at a far higher level is pretty powerful. Not to mention since it doubles the base, rather than adds a value to it, it scales in power as you level up. Very few feats are like that. I think that's what makes it so powerful for a feat.
calebjyoung 01-24-05, 03:17 PM	{Is} Quick Reconnoiter worth what it takes to get it. With a high int, it gives +2 to initive ... worth a +4 dex item.I have never seen a truelly exalted bard roleplayedthe Bard certainly has the oportunity to go evil in so many ways, but its just a mind set that establish's alingment. RolePlaying with a L/G or C/G alingment can be challenging and fun! ... free your mind Improved toughness is great at mid levels. ... Negotiater is great for a low level bard. IMHO something that grants +2 to a skill check that takes up the slot of something I only get every three levels - the equivilant in those three lvls I could just put 3 more ranks in that skill ..And a feat that grants +3 hit points - even if I roll a 1 on all HD rolls, thats still not a signifacant improvment (if that makes anysenes) - these type of feats are not worth their cost. I brought up the Quick Regonitioner and Weapon Finess up as I was running out of Bard feats that would be used on a regular basis. By the way ... which book is the SnowFlake feat from ? Revised Feat Tree : Lvl - Feat 1 - Lingering Song 1 - Weapon Finess - only a few songs per day - and a few spells, the raipeir/scimitar/whip will be at hand far more often than singing... 1 -Improv Initive 3 - Song of the Heart 6 - Words 9 - Quick Reconniter 12 - Disguise Spell 15 - Sub Sonics 18 - ?? - Pretty much this is the best feat tree I can think of that is Bard focused with one applicable feat missing.
acvar 01-24-05, 11:35 PM	Exalted is not just NG or CG. It involves a much stricter aplications of good. There are so many things you can not do or you lose all your stuff. It is not just a challange it is also rather boring in my opinion. Ahh... improved toughness grants +1 HP per level not +3 HPs (its basically +2 con). Negotiator gives you +2 to 2 skills and alows you to have a maximum that exceeds what you could normally have. A 3rd level bard with a diplomacy of 14+cha can do amazing things. Admitadly in the later levels the +skill feats start to lose thier potency. Snowflake wardance is from frostburn. Again you can not take song of the heart untill level 3. It has a prereq of 6 levels of perform. If I were you I would go with Improved inititave, combat expertise, and disarm at 1st level. 3rd level song of the heart, 6th lingering song, 9th words of creation, and the rest is up for grabs.
calebjyoung 01-25-05, 01:49 AM	Exalted is not just NG or CG. It involves a much stricter aplications of good. There are so many things you can not do or you lose all your stuff. It is not just a challange it is also rather boring in my opinion. Ok, the Exalted and Vile features things that make playing your alingment a requirement. If you don't choose any of the Vile/Exalted features, there is no repercusion over choosing actions that are against your alignment. And its not like if you should make a minor act of evil that you instantly lose your Words of Creation ... also there is always an atonement, keep in mind its only One feat, not like the VoP.... What thread should I post the question "why is it so hard to play Anything / Good ?" ... There are good ways to effectively use the Bards facinate and suggestion ... Ahh... improved toughness grants +1 HP per level not +3 HPs (its basically +2 con). I must have mis-read this feat, I thought it only granted +3 each time you aquired the feat. Why I didn't choose : Combat Expertise - A Bard is not effective in face to face battle. Proven time and time again, if a Bard even could do decent dammage, s/he can't take the hits. With ASF in medium + armor - they are certainly not the best in the A/C department if you want your Bard to cast. Why I might select : Imprv disarm - +4 to disarm checks ... actually might be a good choice. 15 ft reach - I disarm my fighters oponent. Great until you get into mid range / high lvl Beast's that just claw you to death... but hey - you will more than likely always make the DM scream when the forget you have that feat with their brand new shiny humaniod NPC.
Timespike 01-25-05, 03:23 AM	There are good ways to effectively use the Bards facinate and suggestion ... . Some Suggestions: Taking prisoners without violence or a struggle of any kind, really. Calming an unruly mob that hasn't rioted just yet. Distracting evil guards so the stealthy guy can get past them. Comforting people who have been horribly traumatized (fascinate). Sing some soothing music and let them forget what they just went through for a while.
acvar 01-25-05, 10:46 AM	Yes minor evil acts will make you lose the feat though you can atone for it. If you want to play an exalted character go ahead I just find it too restrictive. Toughness gives you +3 hp each time you take it. Improved toughness adds your level to your HP total. They are 2 different feats. The fact that bards are bad up close and personal is the reason to take expertise. No matter how hard you try enemies will get close to you and an extra +5 (+8 if you also fight defensivly and have 5 ranks of tumble) to AC is real handy, and of course expertise is a prereq of improved disarm and improved trip.
Zzasrix 01-25-05, 01:14 PM	Words really is that strong. A Maxed out human fighter will have a +6 to hit (18STR +1BAB and Weapon Focus) and +4 to Damage (or +6 with a great sword). At first level you give him a 33% boost to hit and damage. The levels before you get an increase in inspire you'll probably notice your song lacking, but what character doesnt want that hefty increase in melee? I really cant say enough about Inspire Courage, especially in groups with 3+ melee fighters. I definatly agree that the only place to take Extra Music is at low levels, perferably lvl 1. If you choose Words as a feat Extra Music will mean that in every one of the four encounters a day you will be able to pump up the party. I would suggest Imp Init Words Extra Music as your first three feats. If you have a sizable group 5+ you shouldnt worry about combat much because you will be causing the fights to go on faster. I personally dont like lingering song. Its nice to have the songs last a minute, but what are you going to do with your full round action? Make a full attack? I hope not else something went horribly wrong for you to stop singing to get off a weak second attack. The only place i can see this being strong is if you get attacked by other bards or clerics (or other creatures with natural silence abilities). Even then you should be ok with your good Will save. Weapon finess... only if you are in a small party. You should concentrate on your casting and singing. Buff, support, and help the other members as much as you can.
acvar 01-25-05, 01:37 PM	Would everybody please read the prereqs on the feats. One last time you can not take words of creation until level 6 as a bard. You must have a base will save of +5. Now you obviously have not read bard music. It takes a standard action to start it and a free action to continue it unless it specifically says that it requires concentration (fascinate/song of freedom), but that is not the reason to take lingering song. You take it so you can inspire courage round 1, inspire greatness on round 2, inspire heroics on turn 3, cast a spell turn 4...... and have all those early songs last the whole battle. It is not important at lower levels, but it is an absolute must at higher levels. Please people get the rules down before you start giving suggestions.
calebjyoung 01-26-05, 05:54 AM	Would everybody please read the prereqs on the feats. One last time you can not take words of creation until level 6 as a bard. You must have a base will save of +5. This unfortunately is true. But there has to be a way around that cuz it specifally lists the abilities from lvl 1 up as boosted ... look at the examples of the effects ... it lists " at lvl 1 inspire courage 1 is increasted to +2... +2 is increasted to +4 ..." ect ect .. that aside so, a Bard at lvl 1 to benefit from this feat would need to be multi classed.
Eyeless Blond 01-26-05, 08:45 AM	er, perhaps that's because they wrote it in case a cleric2/bard1 takes the feat? *shrug* Anyway, Words still isn't good for low level bards because the nonlethal damage will almost certainly knock them out, which is no good at all. I still think it's a better idea to go for Expertise/Improved Disarm at level 1, unless you either don't have the Int for it or your Dex bonus is at least 3 greater than your Str bonus (Str 8 to Dex 14, for instance), otherwise Finesse really isn't all that worth it. But again it's your character.
Azinor 01-26-05, 09:12 AM	If you consider taking some metamagic feats then you should also look into Metamagic Song (Races of stones) allowing you to spend bardic music use instead of increasing spell level to apply a metamagic feat (like a lesser Divine Metamagic).
acvar 01-26-05, 09:30 AM	Unfortunatly the spell level is still caped by the metamagic being applied, and since bards have a maximum spell level of 6 they still suck at metamagic. Most metamagic sucks unless it comes from a rod, is devine metamagic, or is the persistant metamagic feat (and then only if you are using devine metamagic to apply it).
calebjyoung 01-26-05, 04:04 PM	Unfortunatly the spell level is still caped by the metamagic being applied, and since bards have a maximum spell level of 6 ... Without looking at the above feat to meta-magic through Bard songs, it is hard to evaluate wether or not they are truly worth it. Assuming this information is correct. A maximized mass, cure moderate seems well worth an equvilant number of songs per day that the normal metamagic would have required in level adjustment. But I need to look at the source material to confirm how it operates. Meta Magic related effects and the Bard are a hot-ly debated issue regarding effectiveness.
calebjyoung 01-26-05, 04:14 PM	.. Words still isn't good for low level bards because the nonlethal damage will almost certainly knock them out.. BoED pg 32 "1d4 points of non leath dammage for each rank in perofm required to produce the bardic music effect. {snip} For exapmple : {using the words} to double an inspire courage {snip} takes 3d4 pints of non leathal dammage." What I am trying to point out, it is not per round, its just on activation of the ability. -- Edit -- Words clearly require a base save of +5. With a core Bard - that isn't gonna happen until 6th lvl.
acvar 01-26-05, 10:44 PM	Yeah as long as you have a base will save of +5 at level 3 which you will not if you are a straight bard. But that aside a 3rd level bard with about 13+(3xCon) hps can not afford to take 3d4 before anything else in combat. You will get attacked, and taking about half your hp to activate inspire courage is suicide. If you want to take it take it at level 9 where you have a good buffer of hp and it gives you a +2 (oh and you actually meat the prerequisites for it).
Devant 01-26-05, 11:10 PM	Dragonsong from the Draconomicon is purely awesome. It effects nearly all your spells and your music if I remember correctly. Also, Ability Focus (Bardic Music: Suggestion) I have found to be more than useful. Again, also, one of the best spells in the game is a bard spell. But it's in a book we're not supposed to talk about outside of the Mature Supplements Line forums.
calebjyoung 01-26-05, 11:41 PM	Well, what do you know... on page 48 it does say "base will save +5" - I still maintain this is still contraditory. Why would anyone take levels of any other class then to take one lvl as bard? In that situation you wouldn't get access to all the bardic music ... this feat is broken. Either there needs to be no lvl 1 aplicible bonus's or the requirements need to change. My main objective was to get a Bardic feat tree based on usefulness. I feel that this is one of the few powerful feats for any Good (as limiting as this alingment is precieved to be) Bard. Thanks for point out my lazy reading.
acvar 01-27-05, 12:16 AM	Why don''t you try to read the book. It says "base Will save bonus +5". What part of that do you not understand. How can I spell it out to you any more clearly. You do know how to read don't you. What part of "base" Will save do you not understand. Learn to read. Learn the rules.
calebjyoung 01-27-05, 12:44 AM	acvar :I can apreciate it when someone points out where I have mis-read something. Mis-reading something does not give anyone the right to belittle or act in an un-professional mannor. As you have allready demonstrated your ability to read things and comprehend their meaning with great skill, may I now encourage you to review the Code of Conduct related to these boards.