Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mistwell 04-01-06, 02:02 PM	So, I want to optimize the Bard's Inspire Courage ability. Here is what I have so far: Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting, pg. 60). Prereq: Bardic music class feature, inspire competence ability, Perform 6 ranks; Benefit: When you use inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics, any bonus granted by your music increases by +1... and... Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds, pg. 48). Prereq: Good Alignment, Granted by powerful agent of good (such as deity, celestial, etc...), Special DM approval, Int 15, Chr 15, base Will save bonus +5; Benefit: You can use Words of Creation to enhance bardic music...A bard who has the Words of Creation feat can use these powerful words to enhance his bardic music ability as detailed below. When a bard uses the Words of Creation in this manner, it is extremely draining, and the bard takes 1d4 points of nonlethal damage for each rank in Perform required to produce the bardic music effect he is enhancing. For example, if Devis uses the Words of Creation to double an inspire courage effect (minimum 3 ranks in Perform), he takes 3d4 points of nonlethal damage....The Words of Creation doubles the effect of several bardic music abilities...Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level, +8 at 20th level)... and... Inspirational Boost Spell (Spell Compendium, pg. 124). Level: Bard 1 Componants: V, S Casting Time: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round or special; see text Text: While this spell is in effect, the morale bonus granted by your inspire courage bardic music increases by 1. The effect lasts until your inspire courage effect ends. If you don't begin to use your inspire courage ability before the beginning of your next turn, the spell's effect ends. There is a masterwork instrument in Song and Silence that gave another +1/+1 but that was 3.0. I do not know of any masterwork instrument in 3.5 that grants +1/+1. In fact, given how Complete Adventurer treats masterwork items, I think it's pretty clear that it would take a magic item to grant that big a bonus. +1 to attack, or +1 to damage, could be masterwork (and is listed for various instruments in Complete Adventurer). But not both. The Lingering Song feat from Complete Adventurer would also be useful for this build. It makes the effect of your inspire courage ability last for a full minute after your allies stop hearing you play (instead of just 5 rounds). Does anyone know of any magic items that increase the effect of your Inspire Courage ability? What do you think about the Doubling effect of Words of Creation - would it apply just to the base bonus, or to the other bonuses as well?
Mistwell 04-02-06, 03:14 AM	+5 Attack and +5 Damage for a minute for pretty much every combat in a day, and nobody has any thoughts on this tactic? Seems to me to make the bard into a respectable choice. I'm hoping some folks have additional input...
maltravois 04-02-06, 03:45 AM	Masterwork Horn in Complete Adventurer gives further bonuses.
Mistwell 04-02-06, 05:02 PM	Masterwork Horn in Complete Adventurer gives further bonuses. Cool, thanks. Anyone else know of any other way to get Inspire Courage pumped?
Otto the Bugbear 04-02-06, 06:32 PM	Level 8 bard with Lingering Song, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation and Extend Spell Round 1: Inspire Courage = +2/+2 Masterword Instrument = +1/+1 Song of the Heart = +1/+1 Inspirational Boost = +1/+1 Cast Extended Crescendo = +0/+0 Words of Creation = double the bonus Round 1 total: +10 to hit / +10 to damage Round 2: Cast Haste Party now fights at +12/+11 Round 3: Party now fights at +13/+12 Repeat until 11th round, increasing by +1/+1 every round, ending at +20/+20 (haste ended at 9th round). Plus bard can still cast spells in the meantime! Party is a Druid (with animal companion, and summons 1d4+1 animals to fight) and a GTWF guy. With a 4th party member too (how about a cleric that also summons 1d4+1 of something.) Ouch. Cheers Otto :)
maltravois 04-02-06, 06:49 PM	Isn't the general opinion Words of Creation doubles before additions? Also, Masterwork Instrument is +0 hit / +1 Dam and Fear Saves And where is Crescendo from? It sounds familiar. Forgot about Lingering Song, which is a no-brainer, so now I have no brain. Still a beautiful thing though. ;) I love bards.
allenchan 04-02-06, 06:52 PM	Masterwork Horn in Complete Adventurer gives further bonuses. The masterwork drums are better, imo.
maltravois 04-02-06, 06:58 PM	The masterwork drums are better, imo. Umm Drums are + 0 hit / +1 Dam / -1 Charm and Fear. Horn is + 0 / +1 Dam / +1 Fear / + 0 Charm lasts for 1 round (except when you Linger, then 10 rounds) Fiddle is +2 to Charm and Fear Mandolin is +1 Hit / -1 Dam / -1 Charm and Fear Sounds like Horn for the win. ;)
Otto the Bugbear 04-02-06, 07:01 PM	Could be, I just threw it together as I was typing; so about 4 minutes worth. The example for WoC does seem to indicate it doubles the base amount, which is fine actually. And, my numbers would be wrong anyway with WoC acting the other way. New numbers would be... [Inspire Courage = +2/+2] Words of Creation doubles Inspire Courage = +4/+4 Masterword Instrument = +0/+1 Song of the Heart = +1/+1 Inspirational Boost = +1/+1 Cast Extended Crescendo (song and silence) = +0/+0 Round 1 total: +6 to hit / +7 to damage Round 1: +6/+7 Round 2: +8/+8 (haste added) Round 3: +9/+9 Round 9: +15/+15 (haste is gone and crescendo is gone after this, leaving +6/+7 for remaining rounds.) And let's face it, if something is alive after that long, and taking that much extra punishment, the party is likely in trouble. Still a pretty good boost for any party. Cheers Otto :)
Tenken 04-03-06, 01:03 AM	Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but Inspire Courage gives a morale bonus, as does Crescendo, which means that they don't stack.
Mistwell 04-03-06, 12:17 PM	Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but Inspire Courage gives a morale bonus, as does Crescendo, which means that they don't stack. And isn't Crescendo from 3.0?
Otto the Bugbear 04-03-06, 12:24 PM	Crescendo improves the morale bonus of inspire courage. +0 first round, increasing by 1 each round. I've said it 100 times, and I'll say it again. There is nothing about something being 3.0 that makes it illegal for builds. 3.0 and 3.5 are compatible. If it hasn't been updated, then it's fine to use. Even WotC said that at the time 3.5 came out. Sure, some DMs are sticklers and make the crappy ruling that "all 3.0 cannot be used in my game!!!1!". As a DM myself, I prefer to actually be reasonable when dealing with issues like this. Cheers Otto :)
Mistwell 04-03-06, 01:31 PM	Crescendo improves the morale bonus of inspire courage. +0 first round, increasing by 1 each round. I've said it 100 times, and I'll say it again. There is nothing about something being 3.0 that makes it illegal for builds. 3.0 and 3.5 are compatible. If it hasn't been updated, then it's fine to use. Even WotC said that at the time 3.5 came out. Sure, some DMs are sticklers and make the crappy ruling that "all 3.0 cannot be used in my game!!!1!". As a DM myself, I prefer to actually be reasonable when dealing with issues like this. Cheers Otto :) Well, most DMs I know believe that feats that have not been updated for 3.5 after this many WOTC books and web updates were intentionally left out. Same with prestige classes.
Kuroi Kenshi 04-03-06, 02:09 PM	Well, most DMs I know believe that feats that have not been updated for 3.5 after this many WOTC books and web updates were intentionally left out. Same with prestige classes.That line of logic can go both ways, I think. Were they intentionally left out, or just well balanced enough to not warrant a revision? Besides, as Otto mentioned, I'm pretty sure there's mention of the 3.0-3.5 compatability in one or more 3.5 sourcebooks.
gabrion 04-03-06, 02:27 PM	I've said it 100 times, and I'll say it again. There is nothing about something being 3.0 that makes it illegal for builds. 3.0 and 3.5 are compatible. If it hasn't been updated, then it's fine to use. Even WotC said that at the time 3.5 came out. Sure, some DMs are sticklers and make the crappy ruling that "all 3.0 cannot be used in my game!!!1!". As a DM myself, I prefer to actually be reasonable when dealing with issues like this. Cheers Otto :) I fully agree. The only hard part is that we also have to look for cases where the writers tell us that "X" class is suppossed to replace something from a 3.0 book, even when they don't have the same name. I could be wrong, but it seems like an example of this was the Ninja of the Crescent Moon. Anyway, on the topic of optimizing inspire courage, the greater harmonize spell from Races of Stone should be thrown into the mix. It doesn't directly affect the numbers that go along with inspire courage, but it makes maintaining it a move action, which opens up spellcasting, attacking, etc.
Mistwell 04-03-06, 04:04 PM	That line of logic can go both ways, I think. Were they intentionally left out, or just well balanced enough to not warrant a revision? Besides, as Otto mentioned, I'm pretty sure there's mention of the 3.0-3.5 compatability in one or more 3.5 sourcebooks. They ported over even well balanced feats and prestige classes into 3.5, sometimes with no changes at all. I feel that's a pretty strong indication that some stuff was left out intentionally.
Otto the Bugbear 04-03-06, 04:16 PM	I fully agree. The only hard part is that we also have to look for cases where the writers tell us that "X" class is suppossed to replace something from a 3.0 book, even when they don't have the same name. I could be wrong, but it seems like an example of this was the Ninja of the Crescent Moon. Thanks gabrion. Frankly, whatever house rules DMs use for denying the usage of 3.0 items in a 3.5 game don't interest me. However, when WotC says 3.5 is compatible with 3.0 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040801x), it does interest me. Also, this is the link you're looking for. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x)This is the one that shows where and how everything was updated, even when they don't have the same name. Notice how they still say"not yet updated"? Cheers Otto :)
Mistwell 04-03-06, 04:47 PM	I'll tell you what. Why don't you post your optimized Forsaker 3.0, using 3.5 books for feats like vow of poverty, on this board and see if others agree with you that it's a "house rule" to not allow 3.0 stuff in 3.5 games. You might as well add some items from Arms & Equipment guide while you are at it. :waits:
xanadu 04-03-06, 06:09 PM	Umm Drums are + 0 hit / +1 Dam / -1 Charm and Fear. Horn is + 0 / +1 Dam / +1 Fear / + 0 Charm lasts for 1 round (except when you Linger, then 10 rounds) Fiddle is +2 to Charm and Fear Mandolin is +1 Hit / -1 Dam / -1 Charm and Fear Sounds like Horn for the win. ;) Take the drums, save the feat. Most combat is over in 5 rounds in any event.
Thanatos42 04-03-06, 06:11 PM	That's obviously not necessary, since he jost posted an offical WoTC site that specifically says that 3.0 is compatible with 3.5. What you have issues with isn't 3.0/3.5, but using multiple books to gain amazing bonuses. This is the same issue that you run into with Pun-Pun; he doesn't break any rules, but he uses material from many different books. It's the reason why GM's are encouraged to limit the books allowed for campaigns. That being said, the purpose of the Char Op board is to exploit these exact loop-holes. He's done nothing wrong or against the rules, regardless of what your personal viewpoint on the subject may be.
Riodrian 04-03-06, 06:46 PM	Considering the beliefs of a Forsaker, I don't really see one swearing Vows to higher beings for benefits that emulate magical abilities. That goes against the grain of the class AND the feat. My opinion anyway. And most sane DMs hold onto VoP like it was a national treasure...loathe to share it. heh Wasn't exalted deeds printed before 3.5 anyway?
allenchan 04-03-06, 07:41 PM	Considering the beliefs of a Forsaker, I don't really see one swearing Vows to higher beings for benefits that emulate magical abilities. That goes against the grain of the class AND the feat. My opinion anyway. And most sane DMs hold onto VoP like it was a national treasure...loathe to share it. heh Wasn't exalted deeds printed before 3.5 anyway? Wow. Just... wow. Im sorry, but all of that is completely wrong. The consensus on the CO boards is that VoP is increasingly weak from the mid levels onwards, its only good in low levels. Secondly, nothing in the Forsaker's descriptions alludes to their dislike in supernatural abilities (which exalted feats are). And finally, exalted deeds was published oct. 03, after 3.5 which was july 03. And on another note, the forsaker/vop has been done before, and isnt really on-topic. Fact is, Mistwell is incorrect.
Tenken 04-04-06, 08:25 AM	Crescendo improves the morale bonus of inspire courage. +0 first round, increasing by 1 each round. Unless you're looking at a different/updated book, the one in Song and Silence doesn't say that at all. It simply states that you gain a morale bonus from the spell.
_J_ 04-04-06, 08:26 AM	IMO, a DM shouldn't just look at the edition of the book where a PrC/feat/ability/item/etc comes from, but at the PrC/feat/ability/item/etc itself. There are some pretty broken things in 3.5 alone, just as much as there were in 3.0. An indicator that says the material is 3.0 doesn't automatically say it's broken. There are some really good things in 3.0 that work just as well in 3.5. Combining 3.0 with 3.5 doesn't necessary make things broken, combining PrC/feat/ability/item/etc X with PrC/feat/ability/item/etc Y might. And remember, some of the most broken rules ever come from 3.5 books (Manipulate form, Hulking hurler etc.) Every DM that outright disallows something, without even looking at what the thing is, is not doing his job that well. People just tend to have prejudices. And people don't want to change, nor admit they are/were wrong. WoTC say 3.0 is compatible with 3.5, that's the rule we should live with. But that doesn't mean everything in 3.0 is balanced, just like with 3.5 material, look at the PrC/feat/ability/item/etc first, judge then. Edit: I believe Crescendo was updated either in Spell compendium or Complete adventurer, but can't check it out at the moment. J
Tytalus 04-04-06, 11:53 AM	Crescendo improves the morale bonus of inspire courage. +0 first round, increasing by 1 each round. Unless you're looking at a different/updated book, the one in Song and Silence doesn't say that at all. It simply states that you gain a morale bonus from the spell. Not only that, the spell only lasts 4 rounds (not the 10 rounds indicated by Otto). By the way, according to the spell list (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/spells), Crescendo hasn't been updated yet.
AlienFromBeyond 04-04-06, 01:59 PM	Otto was extending it.
Mistwell 04-04-06, 02:51 PM	That's obviously not necessary, since he jost posted an offical WoTC site that specifically says that 3.0 is compatible with 3.5. What you have issues with isn't 3.0/3.5, but using multiple books to gain amazing bonuses. This is the same issue that you run into with Pun-Pun; he doesn't break any rules, but he uses material from many different books. It's the reason why GM's are encouraged to limit the books allowed for campaigns. That being said, the purpose of the Char Op board is to exploit these exact loop-holes. He's done nothing wrong or against the rules, regardless of what your personal viewpoint on the subject may be. Being an experienced CO poster myself, you lecturing me on what the board is all about seems a bit silly. This isn't about using many books. It's about using 3.0 material that was excluded for 3.5. Pointing to a WOTC website doesn't make it official any more than the claim on the front of Dragon Magazine that it is "official" makes it official for these boards. Heck, many folks don't even think the FAQ is "official" since it's not pointed to in the core books as being a source (while the errata is pointed out). It would be like using 3.0 masterwork instruments, which gave +1 attack and +1 damage during an Inspire Courage, instead of replacing that with the specific masterwork instruments in 3.5 that make it very obvious (without ever spelling it out for you) that masterwork instruments now function differently and do not give a blanket bonus. Those bard feats, much like the masterwork instruments in Song and Silence, were overridden or replaced or intentionally left out in 3.5. And I feel like 3.0 doesn't really have a place on these boards any more. MANY people who post in this forum agree with that opinion, and as the years go on many more will join that opinion.
gabrion 04-04-06, 04:52 PM	Being an experienced CO poster myself, you lecturing me on what the board is all about seems a bit silly. This isn't about using many books. It's about using 3.0 material that was excluded for 3.5. Pointing to a WOTC website doesn't make it official any more than the claim on the front of Dragon Magazine that it is "official" makes it official for these boards. Heck, many folks don't even think the FAQ is "official" since it's not pointed to in the core books as being a source (while the errata is pointed out). It would be like using 3.0 masterwork instruments, which gave +1 attack and +1 damage during an Inspire Courage, instead of replacing that with the specific masterwork instruments in 3.5 that make it very obvious (without ever spelling it out for you) that masterwork instruments now function differently and do not give a blanket bonus. Those bard feats, much like the masterwork instruments in Song and Silence, were overridden or replaced or intentionally left out in 3.5. And I feel like 3.0 doesn't really have a place on these boards any more. MANY people who post in this forum agree with that opinion, and as the years go on many more will join that opinion. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but the website isn't the only place that supports using stuff that was printed for 3.0. As a matter of fact... This is an upgrade of the d20 system, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with existing products and these products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
Zaxby 04-06-06, 08:23 AM	my bard isnt good so anything else besides words of creation ?
Psifon 04-06-06, 11:17 AM	This is a character that I built to maximize Inspire Courage. The idea is that he is built to have as many summoned/bound creatures as possible, he has a druid as a cohort (for even more summoning), and he also charms foes, and uses diplomacy to move their attitude from friendly to helpful (or fanatical at higher levels). His name is Legion Human, 18 charisma. No other stats really matter. 1) Bard 1 Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Lingering Song, Nymph’s Kiss 2) Bard 2 3) Bard 3 Inspire Competence Song of the Heart 4) Bard 4 5) Bard 5 6) Bard 6, Suggestion, Leadership 7) Mindbender 1, Telepathy 8) Virtuoso 1, Persuasive Song 9) Virtuoso 2, Inspire Courage +2, Words of Creation 10) Bard 7 11) Sublime Chord 1 12) Sublime Chord 2, Song of Arcane Power, Versatile Performer 13) Virtuoso 3, Sustaining Song 14) Virtuoso 4 15) Virtuoso 5, Jarring Song, Lyric Spell 16) Virtuoso 6 17) Virtuoso 7, Song of Fury, Inspire Courage +3 18) Virtuoso 8, Music of Growth 19) Virtuoso 9, Mindbending Melody 20) Virtuoso 10, Revealing Melody Level-0 spells (6): Ghost Sound Dancing Lights Message Detect Magic Read Magic Prestidigitation Level-1 Spells (4): Silent Image Inspirational Boost Charm Person Ambient Song Level-2 Spells (4): Alter Self Tactical Precision Invisibility Elation Level-3 Spells (3): Charm Monster Haste Major Image Level-4 Spells (4): Dimensional Anchor Magic Circle Vs. Chaos Shadow Conjuration/Dominate Person Summon Monster IV Level-5 Spells (4): Improvisation Shadow Evocation Lesser Planar Binding/Dismissal Fire Shield, Mass Level-6 Spells (4): Planar Binding/Bull's Strength, Mass Mass Suggestion Mislead Summon Monster VI Level-7 Spells (4): Limited Wish Summon Monster IV Greater Teleport Shadow Conjuration, greater Level-8 Spells (3): Greater Planar Binding Polymorph Any Object Shadow Evocation, Greater Level-9 Spells (2): Dominate Monster Shapechange
Bloodlust_the_Bold 04-06-06, 06:00 PM	for a BAB and damage increase, check out warchanter PRC from Complete Warrior at high levels it trumps inspire courage esp. if you have low-level followers or summoned creatures
Mistwell 04-06-06, 11:39 PM	Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but the website isn't the only place that supports using stuff that was printed for 3.0. As a matter of fact... Fair enough. Regardless, having read the spell Crescendo, it doesn't stack with Inspire Courage anyway (since they are both independant morale bonuses). So, moot point now anyway.
Vaelan 04-07-06, 01:39 AM	lasts for 1 round (except when you Linger, then 10 rounds) You have no reasonable basis for claiming that Lingering Song subsumes the penalty of using a horn.
Otto the Bugbear 04-07-06, 08:12 PM	I was going from memory for Crescendo. Even though it provides the same bonus as a regular ole inspire courage, it's still good to list both, giving the bard that much more options to choose from. Cheers Otto :)
maltravois 04-08-06, 12:45 AM	You have no reasonable basis for claiming that Lingering Song subsumes the penalty of using a horn. Luckily, I am unreasonable. ;) Inspire Cour (from PH): 'The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard and 5 rounds thereafter.' Horn(CAdv): '.. but the effect only lasts 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform.' Lingering Song(CAdv): 'If you use bardic music to Inspire Courage,etc., the effect lasts for 1 minute after an inspired ally stops hearing you play.' Hmm.. Lingering song replaces the lingering effect of Insp Cour, Insp Great and Insp Heroices, seems to subsume just fine to me. ;)
thugsb 04-08-06, 01:12 AM	Of course you'll want Battlefield Inspiration from MH so that you can inspire as a free action. I think it adds +2 to fear saves also.
maltravois 04-08-06, 01:41 AM	Of course you'll want Battlefield Inspiration from MH so that you can inspire as a free action. I think it adds +2 to fear saves also. You know I was about to say this was wrong, but I'm not so sure. I think Battlefield Insp is written poorly. 'As a free action, you can inspire courage in your allies...' Maybe they should have chosen different descriptive words. ;) They then go on to describe the effect, but seems like RAW, it gives you the ability to use Insp Cour as a free action when taken out of context.
Glanoric 04-08-06, 03:51 AM	Am I the only one who thinks using a horn and words of creation is utterly impossible?
Tenken 04-08-06, 10:53 AM	Inspire Courage LASTS for 5 rounds AFTER the ally STOPS hearing the bard's performance. All Inspire Courage does is let you gain the benefit for 5 rounds after it has STOPPED. Lingering Song makes it last for 1 minute after the bard STOPS the performance. The horn's effect lasts 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform. The key word is "perform". It doesn't matter that the Inspire Courage is still going even after the bard stops the performance. The fact still stands that the horn will only work for 1 extra round after the end of the performance, not the end of Inspire Courage. You could house-rule it to work whatever way you want, but that's not RAW.
FabulousRex 04-08-06, 11:21 AM	Perhaps I'm just silly, but I've always thought that a Bard with a massive Inspire Courage bonus should probably be mixing it up in combat as well. I came up with a Spellscale Bard20 build that could use a bit more work, but seems OK for now. Spellscale Bard20 Only the feats are really important here. Remember also that if using Song of the Heart, Eberron bards have the option of losing a bardic music effect to gain that feat (and a few others from EBCS). That said, I always drop Inspire Competence, because it fits my 'selfish' Bard style, and I find it to be pretty worthless at the much higher levels. A free feat is a free feat, no matter what. Every other song is really too good to drop, however. 1-Quicken Spell 3-Snowflake Wardance, (Song of the Heart) 6-Rapid Metamagic 9-Words of Creation 12-Easy Metamagic 15-Arcane Strike 18-Open Feat The Rapid and Easy metamagics are from RotDragon, as is the Spellscale race itself. The idea is a little forward-thinking, but works great at lvl12, the magic level. Being able to Inspire Courage for a massive bonus and quicken a low-level buff spell before you open up with a full attack of Doom is pretty sweet. And while this is a very combat-intensive build, you're still a Bard20, so social interaction is nailed.
Tenken 04-08-06, 12:59 PM	I assume you meant Practical Metamagic instead of Easy Metamagic (which I believe is from a Dragon Magazine, and does the same thing)... and also Accelerate Metamagic instead of Rapid Metamagic...
maltravois 04-08-06, 01:56 PM	Inspire Courage LASTS for 5 rounds AFTER the ally STOPS hearing the bard's performance. The horn's effect lasts 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform. You could house-rule it to work whatever way you want, but that's not RAW. So the difference between these is four rounds. There is no mechanical difference here, despite bold and capitalized words, beyond that.
maltravois 04-08-06, 01:58 PM	Am I the only one who thinks using a horn and words of creation is utterly impossible? Nope, seems pretty silly to me, too.
Tenken 04-08-06, 01:59 PM	So the difference between these is four rounds. There is no mechanical difference here, despite bold and capitalized words, beyond that. Actually, the difference is 9 rounds, because he was talking about using Lingering Song as if it affected the use of the Horn, which it does not. And even if it was just 4 rounds, that's still 4 extra rounds, which is an advantage over just one round. Seems like you're saying "okay, it was wrong.. but not THAT wrong"
maltravois 04-08-06, 02:06 PM	Actually, the difference is 9 rounds, because he was talking about using Lingering Song as if it affected the use of the Horn, which it does not. And even if it was just 4 rounds, that's still 4 extra rounds, which is an advantage over just one round. Seems like you're saying "okay, it was wrong.. but not THAT wrong" Heh. When you say he, you say me. But.... I'm saying that it is indeed okay to use it because the mechanic replaces any duration of the Inspire Courage and replaces it with 10 rounds. Pretty clear to me. I still haven't seen any proof, other than assertions that it does not. Whereas Lingering Song says it extends Insp Cour to 10 rounds, it doesn't say spoken Insp Cour, Insp courage with a fiddle, etc. It says Inspire Cour. Simplest answer being the correct one, that would mean that Inspire courage is extended to 10 rounds, regardless. I posted it to Ask Wizards, but I'm assuming that will be a crap shoot on whether we ever get an answer.
Tenken 04-08-06, 02:33 PM	Inspire Courage: The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. Lingering Song: ...the effect lasts for 1 minute after an inspired ally stops hearing you play. Horn: ...the effect lasts for only 1 round after the ally stops hearing the bard perform. So, let's do a hypothetical situation: round 1: Bard uses Inspire Courage with Lingering Song feat and the Horn. round 2: Bard still using Inspire Courage. round 3: Bard stops using Inspire Courage. round 4: All of the Inspire Courage effect still going on. round 5: Inspire Courage is still going on, but the effect of the horn no longer works because it has been over 1 round since the bard stopped the performance. That's all I'm saying. If you want to argue with me that it's still going right there at round 5, then I don't even know how else to prove to you that it shouldn't. It clearly states in the quotes that the horn effect lasts for 1 round after the performance stops, not after the EFFECT of the performance has stopped.
Nofux 04-09-06, 04:47 AM	:bump:
Mistwell 04-12-06, 03:53 PM	Anyone have a specific source for the "Masterwork Instrument = +1/+1 to Inspire Courage" citation?
maltravois 04-12-06, 11:18 PM	Anyone have a specific source for the "Masterwork Instrument = +1/+1 to Inspire Courage" citation? It's not +1/+1, but all of the Instruments that give bonuses to Inspire Courage are in Complete Adventurer and replace anything published previously.
Mistwell 06-26-06, 06:41 PM	For what it is worth, I agree that: 1) The horn's effects last one round, and the other effects do not impact that. It's the difference between "after the Bard stops singing" and "after the Bard stops playing the horn". Pretty clear to me. 2) I agree you cannot use Words of Creation and a Horn in the same action. You could perhaps use them in different actions and still impact the bardic music, I'd have to check the language. There is also another good thread on this topic here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=579074 Also, a single level of Dragon Shaman from PHB II might combine well with this build. You can have the +1 damage aura up, the healing aura up out of combat, and the diplomacy/bluff/intimidate aura up when interacting out of combat. Drop in the two levels of Marshall, and you have a lot of synergistic bonuses going.
Heartless Seance 06-27-06, 11:34 AM	What about the spell harmony from Magic of Faerun? Harmony Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sonic] Level: Brd 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Variable (see below) When you play your instrument, sing you song, recite your epic poem, or speak your words of encouragement, you fill your allies with greater confidence than normal. When under the effect of this spell, you grant a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls when you use your inspire courage bardic ability. The effect lasts as long as the effect of your inspire courage lasts. If you don't begin to inspire courage within 1 minute of casting the spells, the effects of harmony end.
eRaz0r 06-28-06, 08:10 PM	I'm sorry, but the build earlier can't combine Words of Creation (an exalted feat) with Mindbender (requires non-good). Interestingly, I've got a bard and with Song of the Heart and with Inspirational Boost up, the +3/+3 I give my party (at 3rd leve)l can sometimes seem quite broken. I can only imagine trying to mix in some of these other options - my DM would have kittens.
Tytalus 06-28-06, 10:11 PM	What about the spell harmony from Magic of Faerun? Harmony has been folded into Inspirational Boost with the appearance of the Spell Compendium (so you can't use both together any more).
Mistwell 02-08-07, 04:31 PM	So the Dread Pirate prestige class, from Complete Adventurer, might combine with this build. Rally the Crew (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, an honorable dread pirate can inspire his allies (including himself) to great bravery in combat once per day. This inspiration grants them a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. To be affected, an ally must be able to see or hear the dread pirate. The effect requires a free action to activate and lasts for 1 minute per class level, even if the dread pirate moves out of range or loses consciousness. This is a mind-affecting ability. At 7th level, a dread pirate can use this ability twice per day, and the bonus increases to +2. If a dread pirate has the inspire courage bardic music ability, he can add the morale bonus gained from that ability to the morale bonus gained from this ability to determine the total morale bonus granted. For example, an 8th-level bard/3rd-level dread pirate would provide a +3 morale bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls.
Mistwell 02-08-07, 04:34 PM	Harmony has been folded into Inspirational Boost with the appearance of the Spell Compendium (so you can't use both together any more). Not only can you not use boh together...but they are the same exact thing. The Spell Compendium just changed the name from Harmony to Inspirational Boost, and declared that they are the same spell in the beginning of the book. So you can call it by either name, but it's the same spell and not two different spells.
Pryor 02-08-07, 06:21 PM	Also, just to point out a common misconception: it is sadly not possible to substitute Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart in Eberron, as Song of the Heart lists Inspire Competence as a prerequisite.