Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 08-30-05, 11:05 PM	Hey there I'm doing my head in trying to 'crunch some numbers' and I'd love a fresh perspective... My D&D group is a unique one, in that it's a 3 person show... It actually works nicely at the moment, I'm running my 2 players through the Freeport Triilogy (which I highly recommend) and both players and I are having a blast! Curently at 8th level, they're playing a... Halfling Rogue3/Cleric5 and... Elf Ranger4/Barbarian2/Fighter2. This combo has been very effective though I am concerned that lack of magical punch might effect higher level adventures. Thus far they have endured admirably! However... It's a changing of the guard and one of the crew is about to start running a game in which I will be playing, starting at level 6. That means that we have to find a good 2 man (woman, dwarf, whatever) combination. The afore mentioned players simply designed characters they wanted to play and it was lucky enough to work... however second time around I think we will need to give an effective class combo a bit more thought. I'm thinking of playing a... Bard3/Rogue1/HumanParagon2(Unearthed Arcana). Later on down the track at level 10 I should be... B6/HP2/R1/SublimeChord1(Complete Arcane) Why I made these choices??? Based on the idea of a roguish drifter (and all rounder) I've always wanted to play, I was really hoping to create a human Bard with an emphasis on being a 'jack of all trades' maybe a little bit like Madmardigan from Willow with a touch of Gurney from Dune. I want to maintain a healthy balance between Bardic spell casting and music and the typical rougish skills that an adventuring party is always in need of. With a great sword (martial weapon from Human Paragon) sneak attack and Improved Feint I hope to be able to hold my own in combat, particularly when bolstered with specifc spells and Bardic music. I was considering possibly abandoning the Human Paragon in favor of a fighter (for all martial weapons) and/or futher rogue levels (for sneak attack 2d6 & Evasion) but I'm not sure yet. Additional Feats could include: Able Learner, Combat Expertise/Improved Feint, Extra Music, Song of the Heart, Lingering Song, Arcane Prodigy and Lyrical Song. My companion will probally be playing a Fighter/Cleric or a combatative Druid with the Spontaneous Healer feat. Whilst my charcters 'character' is quite clear in my head, I'm having trouble deciding the best angle (crunch wise) to take him mechanicly... particularly in the hope of creating an effective adventuring duo. Essentially I'm interested in hearing any comments you have on my character specifically... I'd also love to hear of any other 'Duo' combinations you think might work, or even better, you've played with to great effect! Any help much appreciated.
PonTelon 08-30-05, 11:41 PM	Hmm... A Jack of All Trades eh? Sounds like Chameleon from Races of Destiny to me. Rogue[feat from Unearthed Arcana or regular, to taste]5/Chameleon 5 However, since you are starting at level 6... How do you feel about Psionics? Might check out Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) for some manifesting, while still able to be a semi-skill monkey. Bard is fun though. Bard 3/Marshal(from the Miniature's Handbook)3 might be fun/interesting. Though Marshal is more suited to having more people, it could be fun. You have a Druid right? A fun partner might be a Rogue/Thief Acrobat(from Complete Adventurer). Druids can fullfill healer and tank both fairly well by 6th level(thanks to wildshape!), so that leaves you open to many different ideas. Druid and a Warlock are also fun duo combos. I'm going to stop rambling now... I hope something of this was at least a little bit of help. =)
Lilt 08-31-05, 04:33 AM	I also agree that Chameleon is great for a jack of all trades, but I'll suggest to you to look at your base attack bonus and try to stop losing so much of it :) B6/HP2/R1/SublimeChord1 = BAB 5 That is what a wizard would expect at level 10. Character optimisiation dosen't mean just throwing weird classes about left right and center, you have to carefully weigh the benefits of each class or 'dip'. Also, because of the skill requirements, you can't get into Sublime Chord until level 11. If you want to be a jack of all trades, then I'd also agree that Chameleon is a great choice too. I personally am playing a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 1 skill-monkey in a game that's on-hold over the summer, and I've been most happy with him. If you want to stay as a bard but take-on the trap-monkey role and try for Chameleon, then maybe consider something like the following: Rogue 1/Bard 4/Chameleon 1 Thaty gives you 2nd level bard spells and your choice of one of the following: 2nd level divine spells from any class (Paladin/Ranger/Cleric/Druid/Bla/ETC) 2nd level arcane spells from any class (Sorc/Wiz/Bard/Wu-jen/Assasin/ETC), +2 attack and damage all day +2 to trapmonkey and stealth skills +2 on outdoorsy-skills It may only have BAB3 right now, but hey it sure has a range of abilities. Taking that build to 10, maybe go Rogue 1/Bard 4/Chameleon 5 (takes chameleon to 7 at level 12, at which point it gets the ability to adopt 2 aptitude foci and can thus cast 5th level arcane and divine spells. Another option is Rogue 1/Bard 4/Chameleon 2/Bard +3 then start on Sublime Chord if you really want the bardic route. If chameleon's not for you, then maybe go a Rogue 1/Ranger 1/Bard 8/Sublime Chord 10 which gives you Inspire Courage +2, proficiency with all martial weapons, tracking and trapfinding, and BAB 7 at level 10. I'd suggest Able Learner (a feat from Races of Destiny, normally required for Chameleon) for any Bard/Trapmonkey character as otherwise you'll be needing to buy cross-class ranks in Disable Device all the time. Bard is sometimes considered less useful in small groups, however. In a big group, one of about 5 people, the increase in average damage from a bard and their music can be larger than the damage done by some of the other characters. In a 2-man team, however, that difference will be less pronounced. Still, if your heart is set on playing a Bardic skill monkey then by all means play one. You might want to consider taking Leadership (so that your song bonuses also apply to your cohort) and suggesting that your cleric friend does the same (if he goes druid then it'll apply to his animal companion, so it's all good).
Sang-Drax 08-31-05, 05:30 AM	I can't see what a Bard has in common with Madmardigan... IIRC, he's a swordmaster, isn't he? In 3e, I've never actually saw a bard as a jack-of-all-trades. It's barely a spellcaster and it's probably the worse combatant among the 0.75 BAB class. I know that, by choosing that odd combination of classes, you're pursuing a concept... but, since your partner will be a druid, I must advice: he's going to be powerful, even if he doesn't want to. And the game might become quite boring for you because of that, since your build, well... it's not powerful at all! I'm currently playing a character who's both a skill monkey and a swordmaster, which maybe fits what you want, even though he doesn't cast spells. He's currently at 12th level: Gray Elf Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Guild Thief 3/Champion of Corellon 2 and the plan is to go: Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Guild Thief 3/Champion of Corellon 2/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Citadel Elite 5 My DM will let me apply Exotic Weapon Flurry to the Elven Courtblade, as an analogy to Spiked Chain (both are finesseable 2-handed weapons). So, you see, this build nets you +18 BAB, +5d6 SA, Dex+Int to damage, +5 AC, possibly +5 to hit, 7 bonus feats, 15 out 20 levels of 4+ skill points, decent hit points, Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +11. Almost useless in an undead-heavy campaign. I also play in a 2-player party, and he's holding his own quite well... his partner is a BoED Half-Celestial Favored Soul/Prestige Paladin (house ruled he didn't need turn undead), which is quite a powerful build itself. Another good suggestion: Illumian Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Suel Archanamach 4/Harper Paragon 4/Spellsword 3/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Ranger 3 Wield a two-bladed sword. Required feats: EWP: 2-bladed sword, Weapon Focus (2-bladed sword), Improved Sigil (aesh), Improved Favored enemy (evil), not to mention the feats required for the PrCs. This build nets you: - 5th level arcane spells - +18 BAB - Flurry - +6 damage with each attack vs. everyone (Weapon Specialization adds another +2) - 6 bonus feats - 14 levels of 4+ skill points - +5 damage with each attack vs. evil - cast spells in armor (you won't wear anything heavier than light anyway) - Fort +16, Ref +14, Will +10 - can use wand of cure light wounds - good hps (11d8+9d10 HD)
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 08-31-05, 10:39 PM	Thanks for the great replies guys.... Not into Psionics Pon, but I will check out the Marshal, heard a lot about that class in relation to multiclassing with Bards actually... Quite a few votes for the Chameleon... but I must say I'm not a big fan of the PC... very effective but a bit outside of my 'suspension of disbelief'... good suggestion for the Jack of All Trades style of play. Great points Lilt! I actually realised the night after posting that my ambitions for SC were a level or two premature. Good idea about Leadership, I considered that very early on as the perfect compliment for a small team with a Char based class as one of its members... but abondoned it, now I think it would be well worth it, especially a cohort who can be useful but stay out of the fray, like a Rogue. I was aware that my BAB was creeping low, which is why I like your R1/R1/B8/SC10 build, though I think I'll swap out Ranger for Fighter. Perhaps R3/F2/B7/SC8. And sorry for the Madmardigan confusion... I'm not looking to build Mad specifically, but trying create a Bard that captures the essence of the character in Willow a kind of rogueish wanderer who can apply his hand to anything... Thanks guys, keep it coming...especially party combo ideas... might have to look at the Warlock again.
Lord Zeb 09-01-05, 03:16 PM	A nice & simple build would be Paladin 2 / Bard 8 / Sublime Chord 2 / Sacred Excorcist 8 with devoted performer or Paladin of Freedom 2 / Bard 8 / SC 2 / SE 8 You will have middling BAB, but with Snowflake Wardance, Word of Creation Inspire Courage, Haste, Arcane Strike and the rest you'll more than hold your own in combat. You will a tankish role, with a dash of skill monkey and a nice wallop of arcane on top. --- I could see a Mad type with less goodness about him as something like a Bard 7 / (feat) Rogue 2 / Druid 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9 (or the good ole Master Thrower substitute) --- A less spellcasty version, using the FL "interesting variant" of using Ranger: Ranger 9 / Bard 2 / FL 9 Just a few thoughts of reading your ideas. My group currently is a 3 man thing too...1 GM + 2 PCs. In our main campaign we have + 2 cohorts (each player runs the others cohort as well), but in some others we have tried Gestalt, or just sticking with 2 PCs. I am playingthe Sublime Fochlucan in one of those, with great success so far. :)