Bard Optimization for Party/Dmg? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard Optimization for Party/Dmg? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mark1975
09-20-06, 05:43 PM I looked in Search (unless its Broken) and could'nt find anything todo with a Bard being Optimized for the Party and/or Dealing dmg. My group memebers all say the Bard is the Worst class bar none for dealing dmg and Adding to the Party. I wanna prove them Wrong. Any Book in 3.5 Print is available but can't use Dragon MAgazine. Any Race (RA +1 MAX), and starting at 3rd level.

Stats

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 18

Any Suggestions would be Great.

Thanks

Mark
rilem
09-20-06, 06:22 PM My group memebers all say the Bard is the Worst class bar none for dealing dmg and Adding to the Party.

This is tired old thinking. The bard, probably more than any other class, has been dramatically boosted by splatbooks.

Bard8/Pal2/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/SacredExcorcist4/KnightPhantom3 gets BAB+16, 9th level spells, Cha to Saves, Damage and to hit (with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance).

Even a regular bard20, with Song of the Heart, Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost gives EVERYBODY +10 to hit/damage (minimum, this assumes a conservative interpretation of Words of Creation). This gets nuttier with WarChanter. And they'll cast haste on everyone as well.

A Bard/Warblade can to splendid things with Song of the White Raven. Check out the Tome of Battle threads.
mark1975
09-20-06, 07:44 PM This is tired old thinking. The bard, probably more than any other class, has been dramatically boosted by splatbooks.

What Splatbooks are you refering to?

Bard8/Pal2/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/SacredExcorcist4/KnightPhantom3 gets BAB+16, 9th level spells, Cha to Saves, Damage and to hit (with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance).

How can a Bard (Non-Lawful Align) be able to take Paladin (LawfulGood Align) levels?

Thanks Mark
mark1975
09-20-06, 08:31 PM Any where does that build get to use 9th level spells? certainly 2 levels in Sublime Chord doesnt warant 9th level spells?

Thanks Mark
LogicNinja
09-20-06, 08:38 PM The Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer allows a bard to be lawful good.

Knight Phantom And Sacred Exorcist are used to advance Sublime Chord spellcasting, not Bard spellcasting.
jstorrie
09-20-06, 08:41 PM That build uses other prestige classes to progress the Sublime Chord casting. Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer) allows a character to multiclass bard and paladin levels, and to take bard despite being of lawful good alignment.

Another simpler build, if you'd consider swapping stats to
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 12
is Bard 5 / Barbarian 1 / Warchanter 10 / Barbarian 3 / Bard 1. Make sure to take Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior and you can charge people for some massive damage thanks to Shock Trooper / Inspire Recklessness. Use a two handed weapon, rage when necessary, and drop Combine Songs: Inspire Recklessness + Inspire Legion to whip your entire party into a berserker frenzy.
rilem
09-20-06, 10:51 PM Right, that was the nutty bit.

The key splatbooks for Bard optimization:

Eberron (song of the heart, swapping that for suggestion)
Frostburn (snowflake wardance, Cha to Hit)
Complete Arcane (sublime chord)
Complete Warrior (arcane strike)
Complete Adventurer (Devoted Performer)
Races of Destiny (half-elf sub levels -- best for noncombat bard)
Miniatures Handbook (marshal for synergy with half-elf sublevel)
Tome of Battle (For swift-action music)
LogicNinja
09-20-06, 11:05 PM My problem with Snowflake Wardance is that it limits you to a weapon used in one-hand, and as we all know, THF is really the way to go.
AZNsupermarket
09-20-06, 11:13 PM My problem with Snowflake Wardance is that it limits you to a weapon used in one-hand, and as we all know, THF is really the way to go.
IMO For a bard, ranged fighting is the way to go (longbows for elves, shortbows for everyone else)
HamHam
09-20-06, 11:16 PM Wouldn't just getting insane Diplomacy and Bluff checks and simply convincing every monster that it is in their best interest to not only not fight you but in fact serve you be more... Bard-like?
AZNsupermarket
09-20-06, 11:17 PM Inspirational Boost
where's that from?
AZNsupermarket
09-20-06, 11:18 PM Wouldn't just getting insane Diplomacy and Bluff checks and simply convincing every monster that it is in their best interest to not only not fight you but in fact serve you be more... Bard-like?
With the glibness spell, you don't need any ranks in bluff (+20 to bluff checks I think)
Blade2718
09-20-06, 11:55 PM Wouldn't just getting insane Diplomacy and Bluff checks and simply convincing every monster that it is in their best interest to not only not fight you but in fact serve you be more... Bard-like?Which is why the Half-Elf racial substitution level comes in. They trade music for the ability to try a Diplomacy check even after hostilities have broken out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mark1975 09-20-06, 05:43 PM	I looked in Search (unless its Broken) and could'nt find anything todo with a Bard being Optimized for the Party and/or Dealing dmg. My group memebers all say the Bard is the Worst class bar none for dealing dmg and Adding to the Party. I wanna prove them Wrong. Any Book in 3.5 Print is available but can't use Dragon MAgazine. Any Race (RA +1 MAX), and starting at 3rd level. Stats Str 16 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 18 Any Suggestions would be Great. Thanks Mark
rilem 09-20-06, 06:22 PM	My group memebers all say the Bard is the Worst class bar none for dealing dmg and Adding to the Party. This is tired old thinking. The bard, probably more than any other class, has been dramatically boosted by splatbooks. Bard8/Pal2/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/SacredExcorcist4/KnightPhantom3 gets BAB+16, 9th level spells, Cha to Saves, Damage and to hit (with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance). Even a regular bard20, with Song of the Heart, Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost gives EVERYBODY +10 to hit/damage (minimum, this assumes a conservative interpretation of Words of Creation). This gets nuttier with WarChanter. And they'll cast haste on everyone as well. A Bard/Warblade can to splendid things with Song of the White Raven. Check out the Tome of Battle threads.
mark1975 09-20-06, 07:44 PM	This is tired old thinking. The bard, probably more than any other class, has been dramatically boosted by splatbooks. What Splatbooks are you refering to? Bard8/Pal2/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/SacredExcorcist4/KnightPhantom3 gets BAB+16, 9th level spells, Cha to Saves, Damage and to hit (with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance). How can a Bard (Non-Lawful Align) be able to take Paladin (LawfulGood Align) levels? Thanks Mark
mark1975 09-20-06, 08:31 PM	Any where does that build get to use 9th level spells? certainly 2 levels in Sublime Chord doesnt warant 9th level spells? Thanks Mark
LogicNinja 09-20-06, 08:38 PM	The Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer allows a bard to be lawful good. Knight Phantom And Sacred Exorcist are used to advance Sublime Chord spellcasting, not Bard spellcasting.
jstorrie 09-20-06, 08:41 PM	That build uses other prestige classes to progress the Sublime Chord casting. Devoted Performer (Complete Adventurer) allows a character to multiclass bard and paladin levels, and to take bard despite being of lawful good alignment. Another simpler build, if you'd consider swapping stats to Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 12 is Bard 5 / Barbarian 1 / Warchanter 10 / Barbarian 3 / Bard 1. Make sure to take Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior and you can charge people for some massive damage thanks to Shock Trooper / Inspire Recklessness. Use a two handed weapon, rage when necessary, and drop Combine Songs: Inspire Recklessness + Inspire Legion to whip your entire party into a berserker frenzy.
rilem 09-20-06, 10:51 PM	Right, that was the nutty bit. The key splatbooks for Bard optimization: Eberron (song of the heart, swapping that for suggestion) Frostburn (snowflake wardance, Cha to Hit) Complete Arcane (sublime chord) Complete Warrior (arcane strike) Complete Adventurer (Devoted Performer) Races of Destiny (half-elf sub levels -- best for noncombat bard) Miniatures Handbook (marshal for synergy with half-elf sublevel) Tome of Battle (For swift-action music)
LogicNinja 09-20-06, 11:05 PM	My problem with Snowflake Wardance is that it limits you to a weapon used in one-hand, and as we all know, THF is really the way to go.
AZNsupermarket 09-20-06, 11:13 PM	My problem with Snowflake Wardance is that it limits you to a weapon used in one-hand, and as we all know, THF is really the way to go. IMO For a bard, ranged fighting is the way to go (longbows for elves, shortbows for everyone else)
HamHam 09-20-06, 11:16 PM	Wouldn't just getting insane Diplomacy and Bluff checks and simply convincing every monster that it is in their best interest to not only not fight you but in fact serve you be more... Bard-like?
AZNsupermarket 09-20-06, 11:17 PM	Inspirational Boost where's that from?
AZNsupermarket 09-20-06, 11:18 PM	Wouldn't just getting insane Diplomacy and Bluff checks and simply convincing every monster that it is in their best interest to not only not fight you but in fact serve you be more... Bard-like? With the glibness spell, you don't need any ranks in bluff (+20 to bluff checks I think)
Blade2718 09-20-06, 11:55 PM	Wouldn't just getting insane Diplomacy and Bluff checks and simply convincing every monster that it is in their best interest to not only not fight you but in fact serve you be more... Bard-like?Which is why the Half-Elf racial substitution level comes in. They trade music for the ability to try a Diplomacy check even after hostilities have broken out.