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Yekoj 11-29-03, 08:14 PM	Bard’s Handbook I. Introduction In the following sections I will offer my advice on how to play your Bard. I tend to play traditional “dungeoneering” style D&D and my suggestions will reflect this. For example, I spend a lot more time thinking about how to use my bard to defeat a room full of monsters and get their treasure than I do about how to use my diplomatic skills to bring the rulers of the Silver March to the bargaining table. To be honest, the most attractive and flavorful features of the bard are the two key bardic music abilities Inspire Courage and Suggestion. If you don't like these abilities you probably should be playing a Sorcerer or Rogue instead. I've included them at the start so you can understand the key mechanics of the bard class and know what you are getting into. ***Inspire Courage*** Any character with 1 level in Bard and 3 ranks in Perform can use this ability at cost of 1 bardic music use. Any Perform (x) will work but Perform (Horn) (SaS) grants an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage in exchange for losing the +2 bonus to charm saves (I think this is well worth it). Additional levels of bard (or other bardic music granting PrC –namely Spellsinger (RoF), Virtuoso (SaS), Warrior Skald (RoF), or Troubadour of the Stars (BoED)) increase this bonus. +1 to hit and damage at 8th, +1 more at 14th, and +1 more at 20th. The feat Words of Creation (BoED) allows the bard to DOUBLE this both to hit and damage bonuses and the save bonuses on fear & charm (i.e. +2 to hit/damage becomes +4) in exchange for 3d4 nonlethal damage per usage. (Nonlethal damage heals at the rate of 1 point/level/hour so, on average, a 8th level character will be fine in an hour; in addition every point of real damage healed also heals one point of nonlethal damage as well). The feat Lingering Song (SaS) allows the bard to DOUBLE the duration of this effect. This means that if you play for one round and then stop the bonuses continue for 10 more rounds. This means that an 8th level bard with Perform (3) and two feats (Words of Creation & Lingering Song) who plays music at the start of a fight gives himself and his allies a +6 morale bonus to hit and damage for that round plus 10 more in exchange for 3d4 points of nonlethal damage. ***Fascinate / Suggestion*** A 6th level bard with Perform (9) can first fascinate and then make a suggestion to 2 creatures (3 at 7th, 4 at 10th, 5 at 13th, 6 at 16th, and 7 at 19th). Fascination takes one round and you can make one suggestion per creature each round thereafter (after 18th level all suggestions can happen simultaneously). The targets must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and be seen by him or her. The bard makes a Perform check. A masterwork instrument increases this by +2. Using Perform (Lute) and the Instrument of the Bard - Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern (MoF) increases this by an additional +4. The feat Word of Creation increases it by an additional +4 for 3d4 nonlethal damage. The feat Skill Focus – Perform increases it by +3. The Perform result is the DC for a Will save by the targets. If they fail it they sit quietly taking no actions for up to 1 round per bard level and have a –4 penalty to spot/listen checks. Potential threats require a new Perform check and a new save. Obvious threats end the effect. They are now ready to be Suggested. Making suggestions does not cost any uses of bardic music. An additional Will save is make with a DC = 10 + ½ bard’s level + Cha modifier. Using Perform (Lute) and the Instrument of the Bard - Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern (MoF) increases this by an additional +4. Failure indicates that the subject will obey a “reasonable” suggestion limited to a sentence or two. Examples: “a pool of acid is actually pure water and a quick dip would be refreshing”, “a red dragon should stop attacking the party so that the dragon and party could jointly loot a rich treasure elsewhere”. The suggestion lasts for 1 hour/level or until completed. You can also make a “triggered” suggestion. Example: “a noble knight should give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets”. The feat Subsonics (SaS) makes it so that the location of the bard’s music is indiscernible (it comes from “everywhere and nowhere”). However, the subjects must still be able to SEE the bard making it impossible to fascinate while invisible or hiding. This means that a 7th level bard with Perform 10 and Charisma 16 with a masterwork instrument can fascinate 3 enemies at once with a Will save of d20+12 (average 22.5). Then, one after another they must make additional Will saves DC 16 or obey a Suggestion for the next 7 hours. All this costs ONE bardic music use. If the Suggestion saves fail you can simply "re-fascinate" them (costing another bardic music use and granting them another save at DC ~22) and try again. If it sounds like fun to give your party +6 to hit and damage for 11 rounds or to make Suggestions to small groups of enemies then the bard is for you. If Suggestions sound like they would require too much brain-work on your part don’t play a bard. II. Sources The three most important books for people who wish to play a bard are: A. Song and Silence – the feats Lingering Song, Subsonics, Disguise Spell, various non-magical instruments, the PrC Virtuoso, the spells Ambient Song, Wail of Doom, Improvisation and the magic item Strings of Spell Storing. B. Book of Exalted Deeds – the feats Vow of Nonviolence, Words of Creation, the spells Refreshment and Empyreal Ecstasy and the magic items Retributive Amulet and Serrenwood. C. Magic of Faerun – the spell G’elsewhere Chant and the magic items Instruments of the Bards (Mac-Furmidh Cithern), Methild’s Harp, Travel Cloak, Instrument of the Winds, and Janthra’s Harp. D. The following books contain small amounts of bard-related material. They make for a more well-rounded bard but are not essential. 1. Savage Species – the spell Sonorous Hum. 2. Forgotton Realms Campaign Setting – Ghostwise Halflings (for telepathic bardic music) and the feat Spellcasting Prodigy. 3. Book of Vile Darkness – the spell Song of Festering Death. 4. Defenders of the Faith – the PrC Contemplative. 5. Races of Faerun – the feats Shadow Song, Talifirian Song, and the PrC Spellsinger. 6. Tome and Blood – the magic item Vest of Resistance and the PrC Mindbender. 7. Unapproachable East – the magic item Mask of True Seeing and the race Star Elf. 8. Complete Warrior, Minature’s Handbook, Underdark - ??? (I don’t own them yet.) III. Ability Scores Bards are fairly stat-intensive. Charisma is of prime importance but having decent scores in Constitution, Dexterity, Strength, and Intelligence is also nice. Wisdom is the only true dump-stat. A. Charisma Having a high charisma is absolutely imperative for a bard. It impacts spellcasting, bardic music, and the skills Bluff, Diplomacy, and Gather Information. B. Dexterity & Constitution I think the next most important stats (because they directly affect your Bard’s survivability) are Dexterity and Constitution. The benefits of each are: - Dexterity: AC, Initiative, Reflex save, skills – Hide, Move Silently, to hit with bows - Consitution: Hit Points, Fortitude save, skill – Concentration C. Intelligence Intelligence is next in importance. It can give you extra skills, impacts your bardic knowledge checks, and if you have a 15 you can take the feat Words of Creation (BoED) which doubles the effects of Inspire Courage. D. Strength Bards have great difficulty surviving in hand-to-hand combat. This means that strength is used primarily to determine whether you can use a strength-modified bow. If you don’t have enough stats for a decent strength you should consider playing a bard with Vow of Non-Violence and foregoing archery all together. (This also allows you to enter a low BaB PrC without fear.) D. Wisdom Wisdom only impacts a bard’s ability to use the class skills Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive. Although these are very attractive skills I avoid them in order to allow wisdom to be a dump stat. (If you roll up a character with 6 14’s for stats feel free to ignore this advice.) IV. Race A. Human The human’s feat & skills make it the most attractive basic race for bards who can make good use of both. B. Gnome, Halfling Gnomes and Halflings are both small. It is a big advantage to use Disguise to make your small bard look like a forlorn goblin with a battered instrument. Consider two scenarios. A room of evil humanoids sees a goblin march towards them yelping a drinking song (Celebration – MoF). The same humanoids see a elf carrying a golden harp singing a song obviously intent on ensorcelling them. The goblin would probably be given the benefit of the doubt long enough for the spell to take effect while the elf would draw an immediate violent response. Between gnomes and halflings, gnomes are probably slightly better bards because they don’t suffer cross-class penalties if they choose to multiclass. (Note: If your DM allows Ghostwise Halflings to use Perform telepathically (i.e. telepathic poetry recital?) then you have a great way to make a very sneaky bard!) C. Half-Elf, Elf Aside from personal role-playing preference there is no real reason to make a elf or half-elf bard. The one exception is the Star Elf (UE) who gets +2 Cha, -2 Con [thanks Stoned Golem]. D. Dwarf, Half-Orc Obviously dwarves (with the exception of Gold Dwarves who make mediocre bards like elves) and half-orcs make lousy bards because they take a penalty to Charisma. E. Aasimar Their +2 Charisma is attractive but ultimately not worth slowing the bard’s already glacial spellcasting progression even further. They are much better Paladins and Clerics where their +2 Wisdom isn’t wasted. F. Other Races I’m too darn lazy to look through all the monsters for ones with bonuses to Charisma. Please post any suggested races—but keep in mind that most bards are spellcasters and so it is very important to avoid ECL penalties. V. Skills A. Perform – In 3.5 you must take mutliple Perform skills if you want to be able to use different instruments. [Thanks Stoned Golem] The big question is: Lute or Flute or both? The answer depends on which set of magic items you want to eventually possess: Option #1: Perform (Lute) 23 Instruments of the Bards - Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern (MoF) [+4 to fascinate DC, +4 countersong, +2 to suggestion DC--the addtional +2's for facinate and countersong come from its masterwork quality; Cure Light Wounds, Mage Armor, Sleep each 1/day] cost 2,900 gp Instrument of the Winds (MoF) [Perform DC 15 check casts Summon Monster VI - Large Air Elemental as often as you like!] cost 11,000 gp Strings of Spell Storing (SaS) [Perform DC 10 check casts up to six levels of spells stored in the lute strings. Storing spells requires a Perform DC 10+spell level check] Option #2: Perform (flute) 23 Cloaker Flute (SS) [Thanks again Stoned Golem] [all DC's are 10+Perform ranks! Fear = 30' spread Will save or flee for 2 rounds. Nausea = 30' cone Fort save or prone unable to defend oneself for d4+1 rnds. Stupor = one creature within 30' Fort save or Hold Person for 5 rounds. Unnerve = 80' spread -2 to hit/damage automatically. If unnerved for 7 consecutive rounds on the 7th Will save or enter trance unable to defend oneself until sound stops. Even successful save must be repeated each round sound continues.] cost 27,225 gp It is also very nice to have Perform (horn) 3 so that you can use a horn for Inspire Courage. This gives an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage (which is doubled as normal by Words of Creation (BoED)). The cloaker flute is the better of the two options although the endless Large Air Elementals is pretty nice too... If at all possible I would max out both skills. B. Concentration – Bards are spellcasters so it is useful as usual. C. Diplomacy, Bluff – Both are tremendously useful. The 3rd level bard-only spell Glibness makes you an insanely effective liar (+30 to bluff when lying!). D. Gather Information – It is my least favorite of the Charisma-based bard skills simply because it is only useful around people who are willing to talk to you. It is uncommon for a bard without an awesome disguise ability to be able to Gather Information from the orcs in the dungeon whereas he can use diplomacy or bluff against them much more readily. E. Hide and Move Silently – It is always a benefit to be sneaky. F. Disguise – Bards must be heard in order to cast their spells and use their bardic music. As noted earlier, in most dungeons if you look like a goblin with a battered drum you are less likely to get immediately assaulted that if you are an elf with a golden lute. There are various bardic spells that enhance this skills: 0th Minor Disguise (MoF) +2 for 1 hour; 1st Disguise Self & 2nd Alter Self are both +10 for 10 minutes/level and 5 ranks in Bluff gives you an additional +2. You can also get/make a Hat of Disguise very cheaply (1800 gp). I like small bards (gnomes, etc.) primarily because when disguised as a small monsterous humanoid musician they are usually laughed at (i.e. the aforementioned goblin) and tend not to be taken seriously by enemies to a much greater degree than a human disguised as an orc (or whatever.) G. Use Magic Device – UMD DC’s are very high (20-45!). This means that if you want to be able to use all sorts of different magic items you’ll want to max-out in the skill. A couple of ranks isn’t useful. H. Other If you have a few skill points laying around the following are all nice skills: Tumble, Appraise, Knowledge (history) 5 ranks (for +2 to Bardic Knowledge checks), and Speak Language G. Summary Since intelligence isn’t of prime importance the average bard will probably get from 5-7 skills per level. My favorites, in order of importance, are: 1) Perform (flute) 2) Bluff 3) Diplomacy 4) Concentration (3 ranks in Perform (horn) 5) Perform (lute) 6) Hide 7) Move Silently 8) Disguise 9) Use Magic Device 10) Gather Information VI. Feats A. Increase Spell DC’s 1. Vow of Nonviolence (BoED) +4 DC spells/bardic music (only vs. humanoids & monsterous humanoids, must abstain from violence) 2. Spellcasting Prodigy (FRCS) +2 DC and Charisma counts as 2 points higher for determining bonus spells (Designers have publicly stated that the DC bonus will be removed in the future.) 3. Spell Focus (Enchantment), Great Spell Focus (Enchantment) +1 DC each 4. Shadow Song (RoF) +1 DC Enchantment & Sonic spells 5. Talifirian Song (RoF) spend bardic music uses to heighten illusion spells (which results in increased DC’s) 6. Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration 7. Summary – I think Vow of Nonviolence and Spellcasting Prodigy are the best of the lot. Other people seem to like Talifirian Song but with Heighten Spell as a pre-req and few bardic illusion spells I don’t really see what’s so great about it. B. Archery 1. Point Blank Shot 2. Precise Shot (it is better to shoot into combat accurately at low levels than shoot two shots) 3. Rapid Shot 4. Many Shot 5. Improved Precise Shot 6. Summary – Bards are generally not tough enough to go toe-to-toe with the enemy. Shooting gives them something to do after their tiny number of spells is used up. C. Subtle Spells & Music 1. Subsonics (SaS) Your bardic music seems to come from everywhere and nowhere. Until you take this feat you can accomplish the same thing with the cantrip Message or the 1st level spell Ambient Song (SaS). This feat works well with the Hide skill or the spell Invisiblity. 2. Disguise Spell (SaS) Take this after taking Subsonics. This feat is probably best outside the dungeon where it is much more important to not get caught Modifying Memory or Charming the princess. D. Miscellaneous 1. Harem Trained (RoF) – Just for the bragging rights. 2. Words of Creation (BoED) Using a horn (SaS) increases the bonus of Inspire Courage to +2 to hit and damage. Words of Creation double this to +4 at the cost of 3d4 nonlethal damage. At low levels this much damage is too likely to just knock you out but at higher levels (especially as the bonus from Inspire Courage increases this becomes a very attractive option.) Using a masterwork harp (SaS) to make suggestions on fascinated opponents increases the fascinate save by 4 and the suggestion save by 2. Using Words of Creation increases the fascinate save by another 4 for 3d4 nonlethal damage. You can also usually afford a Mac-Furmidh Cithern (Instrument of the Bards – MoF) which gives a +6/+4 bonus (rather than the harp’s +4/+2) by 6th level. <<<Create a “Favor of Ilmater” Ring (MoF spell) which would make you immune to subdual damage and use Words of Creation incessantly on everything until everyone gets sick of you calling them by their true name in front of their co-workers.>>> 3. Leadership 4. Improved Initiative 5. Lingering Song (SaS) Doubles the duration of your bardic music. Its very nice to have 10 rounds of Inspire Courage after you finish singing to make sure the benefits last throughout the fight. See the final PrC section for my favored feat progressions (they differ depending on whether you are playing a Generalist, Archer, or Spellcaster bard). 6. Ancestral Relic (BoED) Every bard that focuses on archery should have this build. Since in most campaigns treasure doesn't get its full resale value (if it can even be resold at all) this will give you a very powerful bow very fast (much faster than you can buy or craft one). VII. Bardic Music A. Uses per day A bard gets to use his bardic music once/day per bard level. There are only four prestige classes that give you additional uses of bardic music every level – Spellsinger (RoF), Troubadour of Stars (BoED), Warrior Skald (RoF), and Virtuoso (SaS). This means that if you advance in some other PrC your number of uses of bardic music per day will stop increasing. B. “Unmodified” Abilities Two bardic music abilities are “unmodified.” This means that a 3rd level bard with a Charisma of 4 is just as good as a 20th level bard with a Charisma of 30. They are: 1. Inspire Competence (must be Bard 3rd with Perform 6) +2 to ally’s skill check for 2 minutes while you concentrate on singing 2. Song of Freedom (must be Bard 12th with Perform 15) sing for 1 minute to cast Break Enchantment on another person (not yourself) C. “More bard levels = more people” abilities Two bardic music abilities have the same effect when used by a 9th level bard as a 20th. The only difference is that when you get more bard levels they affect more people. Both of these abilities begin by affecting one ally within 30’ and last as long as you sing (does not require concentration) +5 rounds. Inspire Greatness (must be bard 9th, Perform 12) – +2 HD of hp’s; +2 competence bonus to hit, +1 to fortitude saves 1 ally at 9th, 2 at 12th, 3 at 15th, 4 at 18th Inspire Heroics (must be bard 15th, Perform 18) – +4 morale bonus to saves, +4 dodge bonus to AC 1 ally at 15th, 2 at 18th D. “More bard levels = more bonus” ability A third bardic music ability is like the previous two except that it affects ALL allies within 30’. Moreover, it also increases in power as you gain bard levels. Inspire Courage (must be bard 1st, Perform 3) – +1 morale bonus to hit and damage and fear/charm saves +2 bonus at 8th, +3 at 14th, +4 at 20th <<<Use a horn (SaS)—it increases the bonus to hit and damage to +2 but negates the bonus to charm saves. You will need Perform (horn) 3 in order to gain this benefit.>>> E. “More Perform = more effective” One bardic music ability increases in power as you increase your perform ability. This means that a character with 23 ranks in Perform but only 1 level of Bard is just as good as a 20th level bard. Countersong – perform check replaces saving throw against sound-based spells and effects. You can continue the countersong for up to 10 rounds. F. “More bard levels, perform, and charisma = more effective.” Three interrelated bardic music abilities draw on your bard’s level, perform ability and charisma. Fascinate (must be Bard 1st with Perform 3) – All enemies within 90’ who are not threatened by danger can be distracted by the bard’s music. This lasts for one round / bard level. They must each make a will save with the Perform check as the DC. Suggestion (must be Bard 6th with Perform 9) One after another (for no expenditure of bardic music uses) fascinated enemies must make a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ bard levels + charisma bonus) or suffer the effects of a Suggestion spell. Mass Suggestion (must be Bard 18th with Perform 21) – The suggestion affects all fascinated creatures simultaneously (rather than one after another). <<<Use a masterwork harp which grants a +2 to the Fascinate Perform check and a –2 morale penalty to the Will save for both fascinate and suggestion>>> G. Summary A character with a good Perform ability and 1 level of bard can reliably use Countersong and with 3 levels of bard can use Inspire Competence. Rather than wasting a spell slot on Break Enchantment, bards of 12th level can just use Song of Freedom (although they can’t use it on themselves). Rather than wasting a spell slot on Suggestion, bards at 6th level can just make a Suggestion to each enemy they fascinate. The advantage is that it requires only 1 bardic music use to fascinate a bunch of enemies (rather than 1 second level spell each). The disadvantage is that they get two saving throws—one vs. Fascinate and one vs. Suggestion. However, in order to keep these save DC’s sufficient high you really need to have a good Charisma and continue advancing in bardic music ability. THIS IS A CORNERSTONE BARDIC ABILITY. LEARN TO USE IT OFTEN AND WELL. In short, I think that Suggestion is potentially the most useful of these abilites as you can influence very large numbers of enemies every day. Stay in Bard at least to 6th level to get it. However, if you want to keep your Suggestion DC’s competitive you’ll probably need to keep improving in bardic music levels. The second primary music ability is Inspire Courage, increasing bardic music levels to at least 8 (rather than just 6 for Suggestion) you get a +2 bonus (which can be doubled to +4 with Words of Creation). If you end up trying to keep your Suggestion saves potent I would try to increase to 14th level to get the +3 Inspire Courage ability (doubled by Words of Creation to +6) as well as the handy Song of Freedom at 12th. H. When to give up increasing your bardic music to switch to a PrC? Option #1: 6th-8th If you stop advancing in bardic music at 6th you get Suggestion with a decent but not spectacular Will save. By waiting to move to a PrC until 8th your Inspire Courage increases to a +2 bonus. Option #2: 14th If you are willing to stick it out (or like a PrC that increases bardic music like Virtuoso or Spellsinger) then 14th level with grant you moderately better Suggestion saves, Song of Freedom, and another +1 to Inspire Courage. VIII. Bardic Knowledge There are three ingredients in Bardic Knowledge: Bard level (or PrC level that increases Bardic Knowledge) + Intelligence bonus + 2 (if you have 5 ranks in Knowledge (history) There are four PrC’s that increase your bardic knowledge ability—Royal Explorer (SaS), Harper Scout (FRCS), Harper Priest (MoF), and Harper Mage (MoF). [Note: the Lore ability of a Loremaster is NOT cumulative with Bardic knowledge and thus is worthless for Bards] Even 1 level of Bard grants a character a moderate chance of knowing “Common” information like widely known gossip & legends. ~8 levels of Bard give you a moderate chance of knowing “Uncommon” information like someone’s shady past or legends about a powerful item. ~12 levels of Bard give you a moderate chance of knowing “Obscure” information like the history of some minor person or item. ~17 levels are needed to know “Extremely Obscure” information about a person’s backround or a trivial magic item. Summary: Bardic knowledge is very handy. It is useful all the time. That said, it is NOT worth shaping your character’s PrC choices. Build your character and take whatever level of bardic knowledge you end up with. Its just not worth staying in the core bard class for additional levels JUST to increase your bardic knowledge check by +1 or +2. IX. Unique Spells Bardic magic is essentially weakened Sorcerer magic. However, they have a few spells that are either 1) unavailable to a sorcerer (i.e. Lullaby & Cure Light Wounds) or 2) available as to a Sorcerer as higher level spells (i.e. Otto’s Irresistible Dance). Spells marked with an asterisk* are only available to bards. Spells with cleric, druid, or sorcerer in parentheses are available to these classes at the indicated levels. Since bards are arcane spellcasters it is interesting to note which divine cleric and druid spells are available to them even if the cleric or druid can cast them earlier (i.e. Animal Trance). In contrast, I have only identified wizard/sorcerer spells that can be cast at a lower level by a bard (i.e. Otto’s Irresistible Dance). 0th: *Lullaby *Summon Instrument *Ghostharp (MoF) *Minor Disguise (MoF) *Songbird (MoF) *Easy Math (SaS) *Fine Tuning (SaS) *Percussion (SaS) Know Direction (0th Druid) Detect Crossroads (0th Druid) (MoF) 1st: *Lesser Confusion *Amplify (MoF) *Disquietude (MoF) *Distort Speech (MoF) *Harmony (MoF) *Herald’s Call (MoF) *Ambient Song (SaS) *Focusing Chant (SaS) *Joyful Noise (SaS) *Faerinaal’s Hymn (BoED) Undetectable Alignment (2nd Cleric) Balagarn’s Iron Horn (2nd Sorcerer) (MoF) Magic Mouth (2nd Sorcerer) Obscure Object (2nd Sorcerer) Tasha’s Hideous Laughter (2nd Sorcerer) Ray of Hope (1st Cleric) (BoED) Remove Fear (1st Cleric) Cure Light Wounds (1st Cleric) Sorrow (1st Cleric) (BoVD) 2nd: *Nightmare Lullaby (MoF) *Crescendo (SaS) *Fortissimo (SaS) *Harmonize (SaS) *Song of Festering Death (BoVD) Circle Dance (3rd Cleric) Bridge of Sound (3rd Wizard) (SS) Sonorous Hum (3rd Wizard) (SS) Heroism (3rd Wizard) Rage (3rd Wizard) Suggestion (3rd Wizard) Tongues (3rd Wizard) Animal Messenger (2nd Druid) Animal Trance (2nd Druid) Calm Emotions (2nd Cleric) Cure Moderate Wounds (2nd Cleric) Delay Poison (2nd Cleric) Enthrall (2nd Cleric) Hold Person (2nd Cleric) Silence (2nd Cleric) Sound Burst (2nd Cleric) Elation (2nd Cleric) (BoED) Wave of Grief (2nd Cleric) (BoVD) 3rd: *Glibness *Good Hope *Sculpt Sound *Verraketh’s Shadow Crown (RoF) *G’elsewhere Change (MoF) *Haunting Tune (MoF) *Puppeteer (MoF) *Reveille (MoF) *Wounding Whispers (MoF) *Blunt Weapon (SaS) *Healthful Slumber (SaS) *Hymn of Praise (SaS) (5th Cleric – Hallow) *Infernal Threnody (SaS) (5th Cleric – Unhallow) *Stunning Screech (BoVD) Charm Monster (4th Sorcerer) Confusion (4th Sorcerer) Crushing Despair (4th Sorcerer) Fear (4th Sorcerer) Geas, Lesser (4th Sorcerer) Scrying (4th Sorcerer) Cure Serious Wounds (3rd Cleric) Remove Curse (3rd Cleric) Refreshment (3rd Cleric) (BoED) Speak w/Animals (1st Druid) 4th: *Modify Memory *Zone of Silence *Celebration (MoF) *Speechlink (MoF) *Stone Shatter (MoF) *War Cry (MoF) *Allegro (SaS) *Choir (SaS) *Follow the Leader (SaS) *Harmonious Chorus (SaS) *Listening Coin (SaS) *Spectral Weapon (SaS) Legend Lore (6th Sorcerer) Hold Monster (5th Sorcerer) Break Enchantment (5th Sorcerer) Dominate Person (5th Sorcerer) Blinding Beauty (4th Druid) (BoED) Cure Critical Wounds (4th Cleric) Neutralize Poison (4th Cleric) Freedom of Movement (4th Cleric) Repel Vermin (4th Cleric) Know Vulnerabilities (4th Cleric) (MoF) Speak w/Plants (3rd Druid) Inspired Aim (3rd Cleric) (BoED) 5th: *Song of Discord *Improvisation (SaS) *Otto’s Resistable Dance (SaS) *Wail of Doom (SaS) Mislead (6th Sorcerer) Heroism, Greater (6th Sorcerer) Shadow Walk (6th Sorcerer) Suggestion, Mass (6th Sorcerer) Cure Light Wounds, Mass (5th Cleric) Morality Undone (5th Cleric) (BoVD) Revenance (4th Cleric) 6th: *Sympathetic Vibration *Dirge (MoF) *Fanfare (SaS) *Insidious Rhythm (SaS) *Protégé (SaS) *Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) *Wave of Pain (BoVD) Otto’s Irresistable Dance (8th Sorcerer) Charm Monster, Mass (8th Sorcerer) Shout, Greater (8th Sorcerer) Heaven’s Trumpet (7th Cleric) (BoED) Bestow Greater Curse (7th Cleric) (BoVD) Project Image (7th Sorcerer) Scrying, Greater (7th Sorcerer) Animate Objects (6th Cleric) Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (6th Cleric) X. Recommended Spells Spells between [B] and [B/] (stupid dumb-crap posting...) are Enchantment spells which allow a save. 0th: [B]Lullaby, Daze[B/] Songbird (SaS) - +1 to perform check, useful at high levels for crucial checks Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound – distract the enemy Prestidigitation, Mending – useful in daily life if not in a dungeon Detect Magic, Read Magic Light Mage Hand Message (use it to use bardic music without giving away your location) 1st: Ambient Song (SaS) – your bardic music sounds like crickets chirping (or whatever), great for using it on enemies when you are hidden from view who would investigate the sound of a elvish melody on panpipes. [This becomes redundant at 9th level when you can aquire the feat Subsonics (SaS)] Ventriloquism – ditto Disguise Self – if the enemy has to see you to be affected by your music it is helpful to look like an orc, goblin or some other “friend” [eventually you should buy a cheap 1,800 gp Hat of Diguise so you can use your spells on other things] [B]Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Sleep, Charm Person [B/] [charm becomes redundant at 6th level when you gain the ability to fascinate/suggestion] Cure Light Wounds Silent Image – more distracting illusions 2nd: Song of Festering Death (BoVD) – nasty spell, if they fail their save they take 2d6 damage for as long as you concentrate (cast and then flee! or combine with Sonorous Hum) Tongues – you can’t make a bardic music Suggestion if they can’t understand you Sonourous Hum (SS) – this spell replaces the need to concentrate on one other spell for 1 minute/level [B]Calm Emotions, Hold Person, Daze Monster [B/] Cure Moderate Wounds Silence Invisibility Mirror Image Glitterdust Alter Self – become an Avariel to fly for 10 min/lvl 3rd: Glibness - +30 to bluff for lying is always handy Sculpt Sound – essentially a long-lasting silence and/or ghost sound [B]Puppeteer (MoF), Charm Monster, Confusion, Lesser Geas, Deep Slumber[B/] Scrying, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance Cure Serious Wounds Refreshment (BoED) – heals all nonlethal damage (good w/Words of Creation) Dispel Magic Haste G’elsewhere Chant (MoF) – random direction dimension door 4th: [B]Modify Memory, Celebration (MoF), Hold Monster, Dominate Person[B/] Legend Lore Freedom of Movement Dimension Door Greater Invisiblity 5th: Greater Dispel Magic [B]Mind Fog [B/] Wail of Doom (SaS) – cone of d4 dmg/lvl and -2 to saves & flee for 1 rnd/lvl Improvisation (SaS) – 2 “points” per level that can be used to improve any attack or skill check in the next 1 round/lvl (i.e. 14 points = +7 to hit then +7 to hide) 6th: [B]Mass Charm Monster[B/] Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) – ½ damage from hand-to-hand & ranged, immune to mind influencing effects, but Concentration 15 to cast spells Otto’s Irresistable Dance Project Image Greater Scrying, Analyze Dweomer, Find the Path XI. Maximizing Bardic Magic 1) take some of the following great normally divine spells: Cure Light Wounds, Silence & Freedom of Movement 2) take some of the following great bard-only spells: Song of Festering Death (BoVD), Glibness, [B]Modify Memory![B/], Celebration (MoF), and Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) 3) take some of the following spells that are cast by other arcane-casters at higher levels: Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Tongues, Charm Monster & Mass Charm Monster, Confusion, Lesser Geas, Scrying & Greater Scrying, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Legend Lore, Otto’s Irresistable Dance, and Project Image You still won’t be a core spellcaster’s equal (ESPECIALLY with regard to number of spells/day) but you will have worked to close the gap. XII. Equipment As a bard advances I recommend that he or she acquires some or all of the these magic items. If you make a bard of higher than 1st level this chart can be used as a guide to what sorts of items you might be wise to spend your resources on. (I followed the rule in the DMG that states that a character created above 1st level may not have more than ¼ of her total resources spent on a single item.) 1st: Horn (for Inspire Courage) (5 gp), Component Pouch (5 gp), Backpack – 10 Rations, Waterskin, Bedroll, Tent, Flint & Steel (19.1 gp), Hooded Lantern, 5 flasks of oil (7.5 gp), Shortbow, 20 cold iron arrows, 20 silver arrows, 60 arrows (38 gp) 2nd: 22 Bane Arrows (various—Dragon, Human, Evil Outsider…) (880 gp) 3rd: Disguise Kit (50 gp) 4th: Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750 gp), Travel Cloak (1200 gp) (MoF) 5th: Hat of Disguise (1800 gp), Heward’s Haversack (2000 gp), Brooch of Shielding (1500 gp) 6th: Instrument of the Bards: Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern (2,900 gp) (MoF), Quiver of Ehlonna (1800) 10th: Medallion of Thoughts (12,000 gp), Instrument of the Winds (11,000 gp) (MoF), Goggles of Night (12,000) 11th: Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16,000 gp) 12th: 5 x 5 carpet of flying (20,000 gp) 13th: Cloaker Flute (27,225 gp) (SS) 14th: Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000 gp) 15th: Vest of Resistence +5 (25,000 gp) 16th: Retributive Amulet (BoED) (56,000 gp) 17th: Mask of True Seeing (UE) (75,000 gp) 18th: Ring of Three Wishes (97, 950 gp) 19th: Tome of Leadership & Influence (137,500 gp) 20th: Manuel of Bodily Health +5 (137,500 gp), Mithril Buckler +1 of Heavy Fortitude (36,165 gp) Comments: Ancestral Relic: Bardic Archer builds should include the feat Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 6th or 9th. This allows you to funnel treasure into your magic bow. I don't own the Arms & Equipment guide (yet) so I think the best enchantments to go for are a +1 Holy bow (since the majority of things you will fight are evil; have somebody else cast Greater Magic Weapon on it) made of Serrenwood (+4000 gp for Ghost Touch ability) (BoED) with various elemental damaging effects--i.e. screaming (sonic), corrosive (acid), etc. Obviously you will be dumping some money into your bow rather than buying items like Goggles of Night, perhaps the Retributive Amulet (if you are good at avoiding combat), etc. XIII. Prestige Classes Bards have five basic abilities: 1) bardic music 2) bardic knowledge 3) arcane spellcasting (with the special feature of a few divine spells & bard-only spells) 4) cleric BaB 5) 6+int skills/lvl with a nice selection of class skills There is no PrC which retains this balance of abilities. So unless you play a Bard 20 you will be decreasing at least one of them in order to increase another. A. Classic Bard Here is what I consider the “classic” bard build which attempts to balance all five. Human Bard 20th 1Spellcasting Prodigy (FRCS) 1Point Blank Shot 3Rapid Shot 6Ancestral Relic (BoED) 9Many Shot 12Precise Shot 15Improved Precise Shot 18Subsonics This build offers: 1) full bardic music progression enhanced at high levels by a good feat 2) full bardic knowledge 3) full bardic spellcasting progression enchanced by the best non-pacifist feat 4) cleric BaB enhanced by the best five archery feats and ancestral relic which grants a powerful magic bow 5) 6+int skills for all twenty levels B. Bardic Music There are four classes that include bardic music progression: Virtuoso (SaS), Troubadour of Stars (BoED), Warrior Skald (RoF), and Spellsinger (RoF). 1) Virtuoso Pre-req’s: Perform 10, Diplomacy 6, able to cast arcane cantrips 1) full bardic music progression with good additional abilities at 3rd (calumny), 4th (jarring song), 5th (sharp note), 6th (mindbending melody), 7th (greater calumny), and 10th (revealing melody). 2) no bardic knowledge 3) full spellcasting progression 4) wizard BaB 5) 4+int skills and hide, move silently & UMB are not class skills The bardic music abilities are excellent and the spellcasting progression allows you to make a Sorcerer/Virtuoso, Druid/Virtuoso or whatever who has better bardic music than a normal bard and better spellcasting. I think this is a fair trade for the loss of bardic knowledge, BaB, and skills. Of course the new build will be much more focused on its non-bardic spellcasting and much less on archery. 2) Troubadour of Stars Pre-req’s: CG, Perform 6, Knight of the Stars feat, spontaneously cast 4th level arcane 1) full bardic music progression with mediocre additional abilites at 2nd, 5th, and 9th. 2) no bardic knowledge 3) 50% spellcasting progression 4) cleric BaB 5) 6+int skills *) detect evil at will (1st), starmantle (sorc/wiz 6th) 1/day (3rd), eladrin form (sorc/wiz 7th) 1/day 7th, mediocre ability to cast sanctified spells (6th), native outsider w/DR 10/unholy (10th) Personally, I think the benefits are unimpressive and not worth sacrificing 50% of your spellcasting advancement and a worthless Pre-req feat. 3) Warrior Skald Pre-req’s: Concentration 6, Peform 9, Power Attack, Cleave 1) full bardic music progression with mediocre additional abilities at 3rd, 6th, 7th & 9th. 2) no bardic knowledge 3) no spellcasting progression 4) fighter BaB 5) 4+int skills without Gather Information, Disguise, and UMD as class skills *) better Fort save and worse Will save I think that +3 BaB and a few mediocre bardic music abilities is a TERRIBLE trade for a complete loss of spellcasting progression and being forced to buy two hand-to-hand (rather than archery) feats. Yuck. 4) Spellsinger Pre-req’s: 1/8 elven blood, Know (arcana) 8, Perform 8, Improved Counterspell, Skill Focus – Perform, able to spontaneously cast 1st level arcane spells 1) full bardic music progression with a couple of mediocre bonuses at every level (Compelling Song), especially 3rd (Improved Countersong) and 5th (Amplified Music). 2) no bardic knowledge 3) full spellcasting progression w/the abilitiy to spontaneously cast arcane enchantments (including bard-only ones) at +1 level (i.e. charm person = 2nd level) 4) cleric BaB 5) 4+int skills without Hide or Move Silently as class skills I think that the two feat Pre-req’s make this class unattractive except for one build—Core Spellcaster / Virtuoso (i.e. the Druid/Virtuoso or Sorcerer/Virtuoso mentioned earlier.) This class adds more bardic music levels while continuing to advance the non-bardic spellcasting. It also grants the ability to spontaneously cast arcane enchantments (including the very nice bard-only Glibness, Modify Memory, and Celebration (MoF)). Build #1: Sorcerer / Spellsinger / Virtuoso Bard 1st Sorcerer 2nd-5th Spellsinger 6th-7th Virtuoso 8th-10th Virtuoso 11th-17th Mindbender 18th Spellsinger 19th-20th 1Sacred Vow (BoED) 1Vow of Non-Violence (BoED) 3[Skill Focus – Perform] 6[Improved Counterspell] 9Lingering Song (SaS) 12Words of Creation (BoED) 15Subsonics (SaS) 18Leadership Required Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8, Diplomacy 6, Sense Motive 4, Bluff 4, Intimidate 4 1) full bardic music with tons of bonus Virtuoso & Spellsinger abilities with 3 feats that increase their power 2) virtually no bardic knowledge 3) 19 levels of sorcerer spellcasting (i.e. twice as many spells/day from a broader spell list while retaining access to bard-only enchantments) with a 2 feat chain that increases Enchantment DC’s by +4 and spell penetration 4) terrible BaB (so what, he’s a pacifist), worse Reflex save but better Will save 5) fewer skills *) Mindbender grants skill bonuses and telepathy (which might be used for telepathic bardic music—poetry recitation? and for instructing charmed/dominated opponents) I think that the dramatic increase in spellcasting & bardic music is well worth the losses in bardic knowledge, BaB, and skills. This is definiately a viable alternative to the classic bard. (Note: this character can take the full range of sorcerer spells as well as bard-only enchantments via Spellsong so the “Recommended Spells” section of this Handbook should be ignored. Pick traditionally effective sorcerer spells.) Build #2 Gnome Pseudo-Bard Gnome, Int 11 (for ability to cast cantrips) core spellcaster 1st-5th (i.e. Druid, Wizard, Cleric…) more core spellcaster/PrC? 6th-7th Virtuoso 8th-14th more core spellcaster/PrC? 15th-20th feat progression 1st – Cosmopoliton – Perform (FRCS) Required Skills: Diplomacy 6 1) 7 levels of bardic music with extra Virtuoso abilities 2) no bardic knowledge 3) full core spellcasting progression 4) worse BaB than the classic bard 5) terrible skills compared to the classic bard A gnome core spellcaster with the feat Cosmopolitan can be a pseudo-bard by taking 7 levels of Virtuoso. He is virtually as good at bardic music as the classic bard but has vastly superior core spellcasting abilities. C. Bardic Knowledge Royal Explorer (SaS), Harper Scout (FRCS), Harper Mage (MoF), and Harper Priest (MoF) all increase bardic knowledge normally. Loremaster (DMG) has an identical but non-cumulative ability call Lore (which is worthless to a bard since it is non-cumulative). I.e. there is no way to improve upon the bardic knowledge of a classic bard. At best you can retain it while taking some PrC. However, none of these PrC’s are very attractive (Harper Mage is the best) and losing some bardic knowledge is a trivial loss so I would never take any of them for a bard character. D. Spellcasting The other core spellcasting classes are vastly superior to bardic spellcasting. If you want to increase your spellcasting ability simply take either the Sorcerer/Spellsinger/Virtuoso or the Gnome Pseudo-Bard detailed above. Since we have already sacrificed bardic knowledge & bardic spellcasting the only way to squeeze more spellcasting power out of your bard is to sacrifice bardic music leaving you with… a normal core spellcaster. Thus, barring building a traditional wizard, sorcerer, druid, or cleric I think that the Sorcerer/Spellsinger/Virtuoso and Gnome Pseudo-Bard are the best that can be done. (Note: Players often suggest builds that start in bard and then radically change spellcasting type to Nar Demonbinder & Demonologist or Apostle of Peace & Ur Priest, sometimes followed by Mystic Theurge. In my mind these are not really bard builds as bard and the PrC don’t really mesh at all. They are just two class cobbled together ad hoc. If you play one you aren’t playing a bard build. You are playing a “Some random core class followed by some weird spellcaster class” build.) E. Archery The Classic Bard is already a pretty good archer—he has cleric BaB and the five standard archery feats. To improve we must either increase his BaB or give him other archery-specific special abilities. BaB If we replaced 4 levels of bard with a full BaB class we would net +1 BaB. 8 levels would net us +2, 12 +3, and 16 the maximum of +4. Four levels would be, by far, the most attractive because it would raise our total BaB at 20th to +16 (for the maximum iterated attacks). Archery Special Abilities 3 levels of Peerless Archer (SM) grants Power Shot (Power Attack for bows) 2 levels of Deepwood Sniper (MotW) grants Keen arrows and x4 critical multiplier Human Bard 1st Fighter 2nd Bard 3rd-5th Fighter 6th Deepwood Sniper 7th-8th Peerless Archer 9th-11th Bard 12th-20th 1Point Blank Shot 1Precise Shot 2Rapid Shot (fighter bonus feat) 3Weapon Focus - Composite Longbow 6Far Shot (fighter bonus feat) 6Quick Draw 9Ancestral Relic 12Manyshot 15Improved Precise Shot 18Improved Initiative 1) 13 levels of bardic music including the two best music-improving feats 2) 13 levels of bardic knowledge 3) 13 levels of bardic spellcasting 4) +1 BaB (for +16 at 20th), Power Shot, & Keen Arrows w/x4 multiplier 5) somewhat decreased skills (2+int for 5 lvls, 4+int for 2) Use your own judgment as to whether the increased archery abilities are worth the loss in spellcasting, music, and knowledge. F. Skills The key means of increasing your bards skill ability to: 1) be human 2) have a high Intelligence and 3) take a level of Rogue at 1st. Human Rogue 1st / Bard 19th 1) -1 level of bardic music 2) -1 to bardic knowledge 3) -1 level of bardic spellcasting 4) -1 BaB 5) Trapfinding ability, +8 skill ranks, and disable device, open locks, search, and intimidate are class skills This option is definitely not a good trade-off if there is already a Rogue in your party. However, if your party desperately needs a trap-monkey you may be forced into this. G. Summary There are three primary types of bard build: 1) The Classic Bard does all five things well. No build can top it as far as being a generalist. (Although this doesn’t mean that being a generalist is a good thing…) 2) The Sorcerer/Spellsinger/Virtuoso and Gnome Pseudo-Bard dramatically improve spellcasting & music at the expense of BaB, skills, and knowledge. They are probably the most powerful of the three while still retaining the bardic flavour and they are what I would play if I played a bard. 3) The Archer Bard improves archery at the cost of all four areas—music, magic, knowledge, & skills. This is a flavorful alternative to the Ranger-Archer but can’t compete with the good old Cleric-Archer in terms of power.
Sisyfos 11-29-03, 08:27 PM	I am proud to be (probably unless someone makes it before me) to post the first reply to this thread: Great work again Yekoj! I'll go through this in greater detail later, but it is doubtful that I would have much constructive to say as I have NEVER played a bard during those 15 or so years I have played RPGs... threads like this make me want to finally try one. Sisyfos
Stoned Golem 11-29-03, 09:00 PM	Two minor bard tidbits: Star Elves from UE have +2 Cha, -2 Con, LA +0, and their favored class is Bard. They have a few other quirks too, and most of the usual elven abilities. Also the Cloaker Flute from Savage Species can be useful for a Bard. You can create one of 4 effects with it including Hold Person, with a DC of 10 + Perform Ranks, all for less than 30,000 gp. All in all it's a very useful and versatile item.
Borin 11-29-03, 10:19 PM	In 3.5, you no longer get a new instrument/perform method for every rank in perform, but the methods are treated as seperate skills (PHB 79). Examples given: Perform(Sing), Perform(Percussion Instruments), Perform(Act) etc.... just like Craft. Oh, I forgot to say: keep up the good work!
BlaineTog 11-30-03, 02:25 AM	*"Send in the smileys!"* :bow: :cloud9: :king: :ayyyy!: :thumbsup: :tiphat: :mage: :drool: :OMG! :love: :D This... is... AWESOME! I'm starting my ver first bard soon and this will help me to no end! Subsonics (SaS): What exactly is this? I don't have SaS on me... Harem Trained (RoF). Same question. Spellcasting Prodigy (FRCS). You guessed it: Same question. But seriosuly, great job.
BlaineTog 11-30-03, 11:00 PM	:bump:
Snow Savant 11-30-03, 11:21 PM	As a fellow Bard afficionado, I have to say this is one of the most comprehensive, informative, and creative treatise on Bard structure and play tactics I have ever seen! Nice job, Yekoj! While I may have issues with some of the prioritization and levelling aspects of some of the advice (just personal preference really), everything from top-to-bottom in the post is spot-on *great*. I especially like your evangelizing of the 6th level Bard Suggestion Song ... probably the most under-utilized and best serving Bard combat ability around. Bard Suggestion Song is the primary reason why I think the most effective Bard build is a stealth Bard with Subsonics, magic Invisibility (via spell or item) or an uber Hide score, and singing subsonic Suggestions as the stealthy point-man in the party. For literally, as many times in a day as you need it (assuming 3-5 combat encounters a day per party). Also, I'll second Stoned Golem's assessment of the Cloaker Flute. Once your Bard has one of these, your DM will be having fits at the overpowered nature of using this semi-broken magical wind instrument. And as always, max out that Perform skill! The Cloaker Flute rules! XO, Snow :D
CaoSlayer 12-01-03, 09:36 AM	ummm, it is nice althrough I prefer mine guide (check sig). By the way, you have missed one of the best bard´s spells: the cacophonic burst in Savages Species that allows you to do up to 15d6 of sonic damage, it is the only bard´s spell of that kind. And also take a closer look to elfs.
Zeffan the Fighting Man 12-01-03, 01:55 PM	Again! Awesome work, Yekoj! Great stuff! Bump-- Zeff
kurgaz 12-01-03, 02:07 PM	There is one Bard spell combo that I would like to mention and it depends on whether your GM allows Dragon magz and Savage Species. The first spell is from SS called Sonorous Hum which allows you to maintain concentration duration spells without concentrating so you could do other things even cast other spells. Combine this with the spell Body Harmonic from Dragon Mag which allows you to cause 1d10 ability score dmg to a person per round of concentration. Pretty cool combo I think. Pick the big bad fighter guy at the beginning of the battle and start depleting his abilities whilst you carry on with your other wonderful Bardic goodies for the rest of the battle.
Snow Savant 12-01-03, 02:33 PM	It's worth noting, a while back I made a Bard archetype that is actually *good* at melee fighting (BAB +16).... TWF style ... and can still cast 6th level Bard spells. Here he is updated with the Exotic Weapon Master PrC. Bard16 / Ftr2 / SoldierofLight1 / ExoticWeaponMaster1 01. TWF with Claw Bracers (FRCS book). The dual Claw Bracers cannot be disarmed and can stay in your hands even while you cast spells with somatic components. This freedom of versatility (to cast or melee without making adjustments) and immunity to disarming is worth the EWP feat alone ... for this Bard build archetype. 02. SoL allows you to Turn Undead, coupled with the Divine Might feat and your stupendously high CHA, you get bonus damage as a multiplier to your Claw Bracer attacks. Yes, you have to take Power Attack as a feat pre-req. So keep a spare Greatsword handy as your backup weapon. 03. Your EWM special ability is Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting, to help either reduce your TWF penalty or give you the TWF feat outright. 04. You still have 16 levels of Bard spells, Lore, & Song capability. And the great skill ranks to boot. *** Note, the Soldier of Light PrC is in the Deity & Demigods book. As is common with deity specific PrC's (like SoL & Temple Raider from the S&S book), convert them to be applicable to a deity in your campaign. XO, Snow :cloud9:
catharz 12-01-03, 02:51 PM	Exoticist will give you the EWP for free, and what kind of a Bard uses a Tower shield anyway?
Yekoj 12-02-03, 12:43 PM	Thanks Borin and Stoned Golem: I've integrated the cloaker flute (including a heavily modified "recommended purchases" section), star elf, and correct Perform rules. I also realized that I forgot to include Ancestral Relic in bardic archer builds. Duh. The ability to funnel treasure into your bow is spectacular. Cao - I think your work is excellent. I'm not trying to replace it--I just enjoy writing up this sort of stuff as well (I know bards a lot better now that I've done it which is its own reward!) You say "look more closely at elves." How so? What makes them (aside from Star Elves) good at being bards? Snow - I agree that your hth build has some attractive features--inability to be disarmed, can still cast spells, etc. So, although it may be the best hth bard build I'm still not sure I should recommend it (or any bard hth build for that matter). In my mind its sort of like offering the best TWF druid. Druid's are meant to fight in wildshape if at all and TWF build's just don't work well. I think that the primary reason not to even attempt a bard hth build is MAD. Bard's just can afford to have high enough strengths and constitutions to be able to duke it out up close effectively. But maybe you can convince me otherwise... Yekoj
Snow Savant 12-02-03, 01:23 PM	Yekoj said: Snow - I agree that your hth build has some attractive features--inability to be disarmed, can still cast spells, etc. So, although it may be the best hth bard build I'm still not sure I should recommend it (or any bard hth build for that matter). In my mind its sort of like offering the best TWF druid. Druid's are meant to fight in wildshape if at all and TWF build's just don't work well. I think that the primary reason not to even attempt a bard hth build is MAD. Bard's just can afford to have high enough strengths and constitutions to be able to duke it out up close effectively. But maybe you can convince me otherwise... It's not an optimal Bard, but its a Bard archetype ("Melee Bard") that is consistently asked for on the CO Forum over the last few years. And you are right, you don't want a Bard front-lining ... although they have to frequently in emergency situations. In that context, my above build is arguably the strongest melee "close-to-pure" Bard build you can find. With the Bard's own CHA & STR boosting spells, self-defensive spells, & the appropriate magic items, the damage output can be impressive with TWF & Divine Might. All the while still being tough-to-hit whilst engaged in melee. I actually field tested a variation of it, and it is a lot more robust and melee-viable than you would expect (while still having 6th level spells and near-full Bard Song capability). Regardless, a Bard with martial intentions ought best to stick to archery. Your TWF Druid comparison is really not an accurate benchmark. Never seen a request for one, whereas Melee Bards are in fact a common request. Even so, I agree that the above build is niche oriented, and perhaps not suitable for your Handbook. And as I stated in a prior post, your Handbook is excellent. Nice work! Snow :)
Yekoj 12-02-03, 02:14 PM	That's interesting. I haven't been a member long enough to hear requests for either a TWF druid or a melee bard :). If it is common then perhaps I should at least put a mention in. Thanks Snow.
CaoSlayer 12-03-03, 04:52 AM	sorry, multipost
CaoSlayer 12-03-03, 04:52 AM	ummm, I have made some melee bards, specially in D&D videogames (IWD2 & NWN), the main advantage of the bard in combat isnt the damage output, it is the skill for advoiding being damaged, there are some great clasical combos being the main one: Mirror image + displacement + blink, that allows you to advoid any melee attack (and targered spells) for a while without counting on AC. Of course with the right imagination a bard can deal tons of damage, It is a very know secret the combination bardic songs + power attack, at the highest level with I.C. and I.G. you can exchange that +6 to hit for power attack dealing up to +16 to damage without hurting you basic bab (and everybody else in the party can do this too). People tend to say that the bard´s hp it is too low for standing in combat, but with this untouchabily and also the skill for healing, unless if someone lands a crit in him, he will stand alive. -------------------- About the elfs, first thing: free profience with long bows (bards are only with short ones) second: medium size, this look sily, but if you are playing an archer bard, the +10 move will be usefull against a gnome or a halfling. low light vision: great for scouting at night, if there is not rogue or ranger in the party, you will be the one for the task. keen senses: since neither spot or search are class skills for bards, you will need these bonus. so, moons elfs are great for archers bards (good arc prof, +1 to attack, 30 move and access to arcane archer prc) and for those munch guys who like to get the virtuoso prc raising wizard levels or those who like the spellsinger (class that it is supoused to be for wizards/bards) Subraces: Gold (and grey): +2 int -2con (+2dex -2str for grey): This is the best skilled and bard, you get less hp than a human but all the other benefits for the elvenkin, and also +1 for int skills, it is my favourite subrace. wood: -2 int +2dex This is the best combat bard race, with the +6sp per level you dont need that int. wild: +2 str +2dex -2con -2int This is the perfect archer bard, you get everything and the skill penalty are those who you will miss the least. I have to go out...
CaoSlayer 12-03-03, 04:52 AM	another post, sorry
DeeplyDumbfounded 12-03-03, 01:56 PM	I have a question about melee bards. I hope that it is okay if I use this forum for some advice. What if your DM allows Dragon Magazine Prc's. More specifically the Memory Smith and the Battle Howler of Gruumsh from Issue 311. Now say that your DM allows you to have both of those Prcs if you write up a good back story and you come up with the battle howler of Gond(for e.g.) Not very imaginative but in the end it will be. Anyway..would this build not be a very viable melee bard combatant: Bard 10/Memory Smith 5/Battle Howler of ??? 5 BAB +17 10d6+10d8 HD Full Bardic Music Full Bardic Spells The only thing that gets limited is your Bardic Knowledge: It becomes +10/+15 on weapons, armour and metal items. You can rage 2/day and sing bard songs while raging as well as adding +1 to you Inspire courage bonus. You also get the Divine Power(among others) spell added to your spells known list. For the record...my DM is allowing this. Our party is in need of a Frontliner but I love bards. Is this doable or should we stick to the normal tanks like Barbarian,Fighter, Pally....any suggestions?
Yekoj 12-03-03, 05:48 PM	Snow: I added a section at the start to further "Evangelize" Inspire Courage and Suggestion since IMO these are the primary reasons to play a bard. Caoslayer: (You may want to edit/erase your long triple post just to save space on the thread). You are right that a bard can use spells to make himself very difficult to hit. He can also take advantage of his own Inspire Courage/Greatnees in conjunction with Power Attack to do more damage. So he _could_ be in melee. But these advantages also apply to the archer-bard. Rather than spending the first three rounds of a fight casting Blind/Displacement/Mirror Image he can simply stand far away from his opponants. Likewise, with Peerless Archer 3 my Archer-build can use Power Shot to power up his arrows just as well as a melee bard can use Power Attack on his sword. Its not that melee bards aren't playable. I just think that they have no advantages over archer bards but do have disadvantages. You are correct that elves longbow proficiency is nice. However, I don't beleive that the bonuses to spot & listen + low-light vision are comparable to a human's feat. Wisdom is the bard's one true dump-stat and although both spot and wisdom are class skills they should be avoided in favor of other equally useful skills like bluff, diplomacy, hide and move silently which depend on the bard's better stats Cha and Dex. Humans qualify for Spellsinger since they can be 1/8th elf. With the exception of star elves, the elven stat bonuses and penalties are, at best, a wash if you ask me. +2 Dex / -2 Con is a wash. +2 Int / -2 Con is probably a disadvangtage. Thanks for the input everyone. Yekoj
Mucknuggle 12-04-03, 07:00 AM	Nice thread Yekoj. I was planning on doing something similar after my exams, but you beat me to it (and did a wonderful job). It would be nice if you would link the "3.5 Bard Thread" when you talk about prestige class options. Anyway, I'll try to contribute something to this thread on the 18th after I finish with my Biology Exam.
CaoSlayer 12-04-03, 08:50 AM	Originally posted by Yekoj You are correct that elves longbow proficiency is nice. However, I don't beleive that the bonuses to spot & listen + low-light vision are comparable to a human's feat. Wisdom is the bard's one true dump-stat and although both spot and wisdom are class skills they should be avoided in favor of other equally useful skills like bluff, diplomacy, hide and move silently which depend on the bard's better stats Cha and Dex. Humans qualify for Spellsinger since they can be 1/8th elf. With the exception of star elves, the elven stat bonuses and penalties are, at best, a wash if you ask me. +2 Dex / -2 Con is a wash. +2 Int / -2 Con is probably a disadvangtage. Thanks for the input everyone. Yekoj ummm, being totally objetive,competence with longbow it is a feat, low light vision it is equivalent to a permanent level 1 spell, and +2 to two skills it is a kind feat (there are lots of these). Also add the inmunity to sleep and the +2 vs encharments... all added it is worth various feats and everything have this uses. about the stats, of course -2 con isnt nice, but it is balanced with the +2 to dex (or int) you have rated both dex and con with the same importance, so you must agreed, and usually con have a secondary use if you try to stay away from melee (archer and caster build). of course Im not saying that elves are the ultimate race, Im saying that they have enough pros for being as good election powerwise as an human.
Snow Savant 12-06-03, 01:18 PM	The Arcane Strike feat from the new CW book is tailor-made for a melee-oriented Bard. Your already decent Bard BAB gets excellent attack and damage bonuses to one melee weapon, unarmed strike, or natural weapon for the rest of your round. If 5th and 6th level spells are used, it gets even chunkier. Add that to my Divine Might-fueled Tiger Claw Bard and it gets even stronger. Even if Arcane Strike is only applied to one Tiger Claw. XO, Snow :cloud9:
rich2939 12-06-03, 11:14 PM	Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but I think there's a spell missing from your level 1 selection. Harmony, from MoF - Adds +2 to the morale bonus of inspire courage. So, for example... +1 (normally) +1 (horn) +2 (harmony) = 4, then doubled from words of creation gives a minium of +8/+8 based on the first level bard ability. Even before you can take Words of Creation, +4/+4 at the beginning of the game is extremely useful. -Rich
Arlonnion 02-03-04, 02:45 PM	Is the Warchanter worth taking with Bard and Virtuoso?
nyphoenix79 03-02-04, 07:52 PM	Just a note on something from the first post. Instrument of the winds, from magic of faerun, Can only summon an air elemental ONCE per day. (check the MoF errata) Still, 11k for a large air ele once per day aint too shabby. :smirk:
Psifon 04-11-04, 05:18 AM	5. Lingering Song (SaS) Doubles the duration of your bardic music. Its very nice to have 10 rounds of Inspire Courage after you finish singing to make sure the benefits last throughout the fight. This is incorrect. The feat is much better than you think. It doubles the duration of your bardic music. Your bardic music lasts for as long as you sing (generally), so what this means is that it last for as long as you sing, and for that long afterwards. So if you sing to inspire courage for a half an hour, the base duration is 30 minutes and 5 rounds. With this feat, your inspire courage will last 60 minutes and 10 rounds! BIG difference!
catharz 04-11-04, 05:50 AM	Originally posted by Psifon This is incorrect. The feat is much better than you think. It doubles the duration of your bardic music. Your bardic music lasts for as long as you sing (generally), so what this means is that it last for as long as you sing, and for that long afterwards. So if you sing to inspire courage for a half an hour, the base duration is 30 minutes and 5 rounds. With this feat, your inspire courage will last 60 minutes and 10 rounds! BIG difference! :OMG! :ayyyy!:
ShadowDreamer 04-11-04, 12:09 PM	I know this is more of a rules question, but no one responds to my post at the PrC board... Anyway, i was making a bard that focused on high song DCs, so i needed 5 levels of spell singer because it gives that wonderful +1 per level, but i wanted to keep the build epic ready (since it is a levle 30 campaign), and this is the base build i came up with: bard 5/spell singer 5/virtuoso 10. This keeps full caster progression (for spells like improvisation and the ever so wonderful fanfare which stuns even if they do save (from SaS)), as well as getting full bardic music for great boosts when combined with Words of Creation and a few takings of Epic inspiration. Anyway, the other thing i was trying to figure out is what the range on my songs are.... The 5th level ability of the spell singer (amplified music) boosts the range on songs by a factor based on char level. Now normally when you see this in a PrC it means the number of levels you have in the PrC, but since it is gained at the last level of a 5 level prc (meaning no more advancment in the PrC ever), i was wondering if this meant all bardic music levels because otherwise it would just be a constant. I know that it probably means that you basicly add a constant to your range, because at a bonus fo 5xlevel for most songs and 15xlevel for fasination you could pull some crazy stuff if it was based on bardic music level, but i just wasnt sure due to the fact that there is no point in making it level based if it just means levels in spell singer, since you can never gain anymore after you get this ability? And to be a little more on topic, some great spells that i dont htink people have mentoned yet: Improvisation (i think this was mentioned actually) gives a luck bonus based on caster level you can distribute to a few different rolls Fortisimo: +2 DC to your spells based off of voice Fanfare: Stuns and deafen targets even if they save, do 4d6 damage (as well as stun and deafen) if they dont save all from SaS
mellowship 04-12-04, 06:58 PM	Your Gnome Pseudo-Bard build won't work. The gnomish cantrips (which are Cha-based in 3.5) are spell-like abilities, not spells. So you still need a level of sorcerer, bard, or wizard to meet the Virtuoso spellcasting prereqs. Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Mindbender 1/Virtuoso 10/other PrCs 2 isn't a bad pseudo-bard build, IMO.
Akhenaten 04-14-04, 02:21 PM	My new favorite class is the noncombatant bard. Sure, spells help, but with skills alone, [at level 10] I've got a nonmagical +30 to diplomacy (+40 is only a 10K gp custom item away), and with that I can in one round turn almost any foe (barring undead, constructs, and plants) into, at the very least, someone who doesn't care about me, and, at the very best, a good friend. With the extra +10, rolling 10 or better makes someone who's trying to kill me in one round "take risks to help" me. As for mindless things, I simply wait in the back of the party and buffer them with songs and spells. Of course, I have leadership, so my squad of 15 1st-level rogues and fighers (25 with a +4 cha item) can protect me too, as well as my 8th level cohort. Oh yeah, and I can speak seventeen languages: 2 Racial, three for Intelligence, and thirteen for Speak Language. When you speak someone's language, they're more likely to help you. As of now, I don't speak (from the PHB list) Gnome, Gnoll, or Halfling. And he's a half-elf, the best class for Bard. Why? The skill bonuses. It's all about the skill bonuses. This alone makes them a better choice for a bard than many others. I toyed around with the idea of human for the feat and the skill points, but my philosophy is this: Every +1 or +2 helps.
jiggy_dance 04-23-04, 11:11 PM	This is a great post... but I do have a question about the calculation on Words of Creation(WoC) from (BoED) and getting the +6... in my read of BoED I'm not sure how you are getting +6.... This means that an 8th level bard with Perform (3) and two feats (Words of Creation & Lingering Song) who plays music at the start of a fight gives himself and his allies a +6 morale bonus to hit and damage for that round plus 10 more in exchange for 3d4 points of nonlethal damage. Here is the quote from BoED Inspire Courage: Double the morale bonus on saving throws aginst charm and fear and the morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. (+2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level...) I understand it to mean that it only doubles the original figure, thus at 8th level a bard using WoC with Inspire courage will only be +4 (doubling the standard +2 one would get at 8th) not 2 for the original and then the +4 as stated in the text. I can see possibly getting a +5 if I use a horn (assuming a perform skill of 3) but not 6. Am I just misinterpreting the text??? Btw.. I am currently playing a Bard (level 8 now :) ) and am using WoC, Lingering song etc.. (pretty much a utility guy with a little nuker power.. really little) But I have really only been hit 1 time in 8 levels so I can't complain... I also started the World speaker PrC from Dragon Mag and still get full spell progression and bardic music progression works out nicely... :) One other question if the post is still active enough... I have tried using facinate but the other party members just want to jump in and mix things up.. (meaning that my facinate breaks before I get to do much with it and suggestion rarely gets a chance to work) Is there a better way to use Facinate in a pinch??? The way it has been interpreted is pretty much I can facinate "before battle" but not during (fair enough, its in the description in PhB) .. can you make any Facination suggestions or point me to a thread that has some pointers. I have only been really successful with it a couple times.. Which has been cool, but for the most part its pretty difficult. Facinate ... then suggesting sleep is always a cool trick.. :) *Sigh* Thoughts? Jiggy
Eagle of the Star 05-03-04, 12:08 AM	As far as other options for races go, Feytouched is even better than Aasimar in most respects Cha+2, Dex+2, Con-2, and even has bard and rogue as favored classes to boot. If you really want to min-max and don't like the LA+1, use the level-adjusted progressions from the website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and only take 1 level of Aasimar or Feytouched. That way you get the Cha mod, and a few of the other abilities and stay LA+0 (while still keeping the option open to pick up the other template level later, when immunity to mind effects or a Wis mod is more important). BTW, for those of us who don't have CW yet, what exactly does Arcane Strike do? It sounds perfect for the melee-maniac Orc wizard I've been playing lately :smirk:
Shandrakor 05-05-04, 05:15 AM	Jiggy, I understand your pain. IMC the other PCs just charge in and attack... Using miniatures encourages this, so I've given up playing a bard...for now. However, if things go well, IMnextC I'll be playing a Whip-Based Thri-keen Bard with 2-3 for Whips, and 1 for an instrument. The 4th can hold the aforementioned whip, or a shield, or a Magic Device. FYI, my DM is waiving one of the Racial Hit Dice, allowing me to utilize the UA Level-Buyoff rules to become like all the other chars by 18.
mostholycerebus 05-06-04, 03:57 PM	Starting a Bard in a few months, here's a few ideas I knocked up: A Persistent metamagic wand coupled with Ambient Song can replace the Subsonics feat. A lesser rod should cost about the same as a Quicken wand (both are 4 levels higher), 35,000gp. A few spells from Relics and Rituals I like for Bards: 1 *Salamar’s Quiet Contemplation (Druid, Sorc/Wiz) – One creature stops fighting (still defends himself) and contemplates the pointlessness of combat for 1d4+1hour/level. After that: save or stay pacifistic, saving again every month. GREAT spell for getting rid of guys you just don’t want to kill, and big style points. Rabbit Feet (Persistent-able; Druid, Ranger, Sorc/Wiz) – Up to +18 to Move Silently. Nice, since Silence isn’t our forte. Steal Sleep (Ranger, Sorc/Wiz)– Damage and utility in one. Fatigues a target, you don’t need to sleep that night (but still rest for spells). Raise up Spot, Listen and you can do guard duty alone every other night. 2 Battlecry (Sorc/Wiz, War)– Cone stun *Enkili’s Prank (Sorc/Wiz, Trickery)– Targeted wizard casts random prepared spell instead of what he wanted. Fun and potent. Phantoms Howl (Sorc/Wiz) – Cone that shaken’s, maybe stuns 4 Song of the Gods – Divine casters get their spells back right then, even without rest. 5 Doomwail (Cleric, Sorc/Wiz)– Cone of Shaken, also either Deafened, Paralyzed or both. Song of Champions – Gives target(s) one feat for 1 round. Nice pick for a Quickened metamagic wand (Quick SoC: Whirlwind Attack, etc). Magic Items the UMD way. Unfortunatly, all I have is MoF, DMG and R&R. I hope others can add to this list: - Holy Avenger is a very good buy for melee bards. I’d get it as a rapier (as seen in the NWN module) and Weapon Finesse it. - Sun Blade is another good finessed weapon, in essence a finessable Bastard sword. Makes a good off-hand weapon to the Holy Avenger if you’re doing the TWF thing. - Pretty much any of the Staves turn you into a mini-spellcaster. Many DM’s will let you Weapon Finesse a quarterstaff (as it should be IMO), making the Staff of Power wielding Bard a very versatile character. Both of the above work nice with MoF’s Gloves of the Balanced hands. Hell, do both, see if you can get that Staff of Power upgraded from +2 to a Holy Avenger. - Mithril Breastplate of Command if you’re going for a social bard with the Leadership feat. - Druids Vestments and a Staff of Woodlands make you a passable druid. (The vestments are DM interpretation, but the way I read it you can activate the vestments because you aren’t actually using the Wild Shape class ability. Your are emulating the Wild Shape, and using the magic item). If your GM doesn’t allow it, just get a Wild Shape Amulet (MoF). Do it 3 times a day with Necklace of Natures Teeth (MoF) - If the Paladin always snatches the Book of Exhaulted Deeds, at least you can use the Book of Vile Darkness before he destroys it. - Belt of Greater Priestly Might makes a nice escape if you don’t have a Teleport scroll/wand, as well as providing some nice bonuses. Keep Glibness handy for explaining yourself to the priests at the temple. If nothing else I think this shows that with good use of UMD the Bard does indeed become the “Jack-of-All-Trades”. With the proper equipment the Bard can fulfill any role a party needs, all while still vastly increasing party effectiveness and working in a diplomat and/or scouting role. To a large extent this is dependent on equipment, so a flexible Bard works best with an Item Creation wizard (the Bard can cast any required non-arcane spells from a scroll). A world with a magic-rich economy and a good re-sale market is the Bards wet-dream. I also wanna give a shout out to the Monks Tattoo(MoF). Great item that can’t be taken away, it makes any monk multi-class much better. Makes me seriously look at a Bard14/Monk6 with the druid package and a Wilding Clasped(MoF) Gloves of the Balanced Hands (MoF). Drop a lingering Word of Creation horn performance to give a +8 attack and damage all around, shift to Black Bear and go to town with +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 before mods. Wild Shape means you can mostly ignore Physical Stats, give him Natural Spell and a Wilding Clasped wand of Quicken and you have a potent melee Bard. I’ll close with another neat thing; If it’s your bag, a Bard could take the Quicken Spell-Like ability feat. It would let you jump into a Suggestion in one round, or use Song of Freedom as a free action. Limited application, but like I said could fit the right bard in the right campaign.
Helmed Horror 08-20-04, 08:02 PM	I too have created I min-maxed out bard to focus on Diplomacy... at level 10 as well, I'm going Bard-9 Marshal-1 lets see: By level 10... max ranks: 13 CHA: 20 Cloak of CHA +4 i will take skill focus, and negotiatior as well along with a greater choker of eloquence is another +15 bonus.... so im looking at +35 to diplomacy...If i take a level of Marshal and take the one Minor Aurora of Motivate CHA to double my cha bonus to all skill checks and take a scepter of obedience for another +5... with a circlet of persuasion... add another +3... Diplomacy (cha): +40 =14+13+23 i think i did that right...
jipster 12-09-04, 12:04 PM	Just happened upon this thread, and am really impressed by it. Good comprehensive look at the bard. While the emphasis was placed on a dungeon-crawling bard, I'm looking at more of a social interaction bard. Still, this is a great guide for me and is easy to tweak to my needs. Thanks a bunch! And with that, a couple of questions.... Yekoj said - Fascinate (must be Bard 1st with Perform 3) – All enemies within 90’ who are not threatened by danger can be distracted by the bard’s music. This lasts for one round / bard level. They must each make a will save with the Perform check as the DC. This isn't quite right. It isn't "all" enemies, it is 1 plus 1 per 3 bard levels. Right? second - Akhenaten said - My new favorite class is the noncombatant bard. Sure, spells help, but with skills alone, [at level 10] I've got a nonmagical +30 to diplomacy (+40 is only a 10K gp custom item away), and with that I can in one round turn almost any foe (barring undead, constructs, and plants) into, at the very least, someone who doesn't care about me, and, at the very best, a good friend. With the extra +10, rolling 10 or better makes someone who's trying to kill me in one round "take risks to help" me. First - how do you get a +30 on your dip rolls without magic, at 10th level? Not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking. Second - you are making it sound ("makes someone who's trying to kill me in one round "take risks to help" me") as if you can do this in a fight - does your DM allow that? It typically takes multiple full round actions of talking to get this to work - says so in the skill description.
jipster 12-09-04, 01:21 PM	Just happened upon this thread, and am really impressed by it. Good comprehensive look at the bard. While the emphasis was placed on a dungeon-crawling bard, I'm looking at more of a social interaction bard. Still, this is a great guide for me and is easy to tweak to my needs. Thanks a bunch! And with that, a couple of questions.... Yekoj said - Fascinate (must be Bard 1st with Perform 3) – All enemies within 90’ who are not threatened by danger can be distracted by the bard’s music. This lasts for one round / bard level. They must each make a will save with the Perform check as the DC. This isn't quite right. It isn't "all" enemies, it is 1 plus 1 per 3 bard levels. Right? second - Akhenaten said - My new favorite class is the noncombatant bard. Sure, spells help, but with skills alone, [at level 10] I've got a nonmagical +30 to diplomacy (+40 is only a 10K gp custom item away), and with that I can in one round turn almost any foe (barring undead, constructs, and plants) into, at the very least, someone who doesn't care about me, and, at the very best, a good friend. With the extra +10, rolling 10 or better makes someone who's trying to kill me in one round "take risks to help" me. First - how do you get a +30 on your dip rolls without magic, at 10th level? Not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking. Second - you are making it sound ("makes someone who's trying to kill me in one round "take risks to help" me") as if you can do this in a fight - does your DM allow that? It typically takes multiple full round actions of talking to get this to work - says so in the skill description.
Spungdeeper 01-16-05, 02:05 AM	lullaby is first lvl spell.
amatulic 02-07-05, 05:42 PM	First, thanks Yekoj for the Bard's Handbook. I wish I'd seen it before I created my Bard character, who has been playing the Banewarrens campaign for a while now. In getting my DM to agree to change some aspects of my Bard, I discovered a few problems with this Handbook, specifically with the Song of Festering Death with respect to alignment. But first a comment about Wisdom: D. Wisdom Wisdom only impacts a bard’s ability to use the class skills Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive. Although these are very attractive skills I avoid them in order to allow wisdom to be a dump stat. Will saves have been useful in the game I'm playing now. Will saves require wisdom. For my Classic Gnome Bard who uses skills more than archery, the dump stat is strength, not wisdom. A bard doesn't need strength unless you want a good archer. If your party already has good fighters, then strength is irrelevant; wisdom is more useful for staying alive singing songs for rest of your party. Now, about the Song of Festering Death: X. Recommended Spells 2nd: Song of Festering Death (BoVD) – nasty spell, if they fail their save they take 2d6 damage for as long as you concentrate (cast and then flee! or combine with Sonorous Hum) This is an evil spell, which has a debilitating effect on a non-evil character. It seems that most DMs ignore the effect of evil spell usage causing a character's alignment to slide toward evil. While my DM agreed I could substitute an existing level 2 spell with the Song of Festering Death, he said that using it once per day for a week would slide my character from good to neutral, and after that my character would slide to evil and come under the DM's control. On top of that, he wanted to impose a penalty per use of 10% of the XP earned on the day the spell is used. The point is, if you're making a non-evil Bard, consult your DM before taking this spell! I decided that the benefit wasn't worth the cost; if my character will slide toward evil, let it be due to a higher level spell. For this level-2 slot substitution, I took instead Faerinaal's Hymn from the Book of Exhalted Deeds, which causes all evil creatures in an area to forgo attacks of opportunity, which helps the rest of the party. By the way Yekoj, do you have an updated version of this handbook? -A
Spungdeeper 02-10-05, 01:47 AM	I thought that a certain amount of time need to pass for something to be considered classic. Halfling thief, sexually confused (or curious) elven fighter/mage, dwarven fighter, human character in a leadership position, gregarious gnomish illusionist with a penchant for buggering fey, a coke drinking red robed white beared sleigh riding present slinging conjurer (high on fly agaric) etc.; yes, these things are classic. :D
GrolubFranco 02-10-05, 05:21 AM	Very nice post Yekoj! The really problem I see, and was already mencioned here, is that you can´t fascinate/suggestion in combat, and that´s a great disadvantage. Don´t know how your party or DM is, but in my case the monsters simply appear and is rare the opportunity to actually planning the combat. Also, I think sublime chord fits almost all bard builds. It´s simply broken
amatulic 02-10-05, 01:47 PM	The real problem ... is that you can´t fascinate/suggestion in combat, and that´s a great disadvantage. Don´t know how your party or DM is, but in my case the monsters simply appear....For me that's true too, mostly. In one case our party encountered a giant warthog who was minding its own business grubbing around in the dirt, and my Gnome Bard, using the talk-to-animals ability with fascinate/suggestion, was able to convince the creature to run away and avoid us forever. That counted as a successful encounter and we all got XP for it. I see one other possibility to use fascinate/suggestion to avert a potential combat, and that's when the Bard rolls the highest initiative to make the first action. The DM has to decide whether everybody has drawn weapons yet (which would negate the fascinate/suggestion) and if not, then the Bard can go ahead and attempt it. Also, I think sublime chord fits almost all bard builds. It´s simply brokenWhat's broken about it? I'd like to know for the future, even though the Bard I'm playing now will likely remain a Classic Bard (no prestige class) until death. -Alex
amatulic 02-18-05, 08:22 PM	the Cloaker Flute from Savage Species can be useful for a Bard. You can create one of 4 effects with it including Hold Person, with a DC of 10 + Perform Ranks, all for less than 30,000 gp.I just want to mention that a smart DM may not let you take a cloaker flute as described, because it has two design errors: 1. My own DM wasn't happy about the formula for the save DC of 10 + ranks in Perform (Wind Instrument). On the other hand, there is one other known example of this save DC in all the books: the Burning Melody refrain in the prestige class Seeker of the Song (Complete Arcane), so one can argue that it's a valid save DC. An alternative is to use the save DC of the Haunting Melody feat (Eberron) which is 10 + 1/2 bard levels + Cha modifier. Or 10 + PerformRanks/2 + Cha modifier. Negotiate if your DM objects. 2. The Cloaker Flute has a "hold monster" effect but uses Hold Person as its spell effect. Therefore it's mis-priced. The price should reflect the higher-cost Hold Monster spell. See my derivation of 69,000 gp for the price of a 3.5 Cloaker Flute at http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=469428 -Alex
JosephKell 02-18-05, 09:07 PM	Song of the Heart is a must for any Bard in Eberron or can take feats from Eberron. It increases the bonus from Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics by 1 (it also increases the DC of Song of Mourning by 1).
Angel Black 03-23-05, 07:34 PM	Any ideas for bards that like fight with swords? and those bards that like sing and fight with a rapier or an exotic weapon? Bard/Marshal? Bard/Healer?
gamefiend 06-08-05, 05:20 PM	The one thing I didn't see mentioned is the bard as a buffer/defbuffer. I've been looking at the bard lately myself, and this build seems to be very viable (haven't tested yet). The buff bard is pure support, pumping/maximizing his friends and weakening/minimizing the abilities of their foes. One of the reasons I think it's a good build is that it's effectiveness is measured in how much other benefits, not by how much you strong you are personally (not that there's anything wrong with it, but does anyone care that you have a str 6 and 10 hp if they get a +6 on their rolls and the enemy gets -6?) The other issue is that, as many have noted, that your party has to step aside for oyu to use fascination/suggestion. While nice, it requires a lot more coordination than augmenting everyone's abilities does. General -Lyric Spell + Extra Music - you need these to keep the fun going. This combo give you a "versatile focus" --you can choose whether you need to be spell oriented or music-oriented as the situation demands. -Lingering Song - "Suppressive Fire", laying down a melee buff then going about to more spell coverage. -Leadership - the mass buffs of the bard are force multipliers. The more people you have in a melee role, the more powerful the buff is. Rather than rely on a party with enough frontline fighters to make the buffs good, get your own! a 6th level bard with 18 Cha can get a cohort and 5 followers. The cohort can be fourth level and the followers are first level. Inspire Courage (later inspire greatness/Heroism) dramatically improves their effectiveness. Buffs -Inspirational Boost (CAdv) + Masterwork Mandolin - +2 Attack +1 dmg stacked on top of bardic music, so +3/+4/+5/+6 attack or with WoC (don't have exalted deeds, just going from what I've seen --someone correct me if I've misunderstood) +6/+8/+10/+12 attack. Inspirational Boost is swift, so it's easy to use it with bardic music. Add lingering song so you can play for one round, then go to spell casting. -Heroism (greater)-for the fighter who has everything, +2 attack/saves -Allegro -party speed boost, +30ft for 1 min/level. -Good Hope -another mass buff - +2 to attack/save/damage. -Harmonic Chorus - give +2 caster levels and +2 DC to another caster. The more casters you have, the more pronounced the effect. -Haste -tis good. -stats pumping -Cat's grace, etc. -tactical precision -lets you get the most out of your followers/cohort. also works wonders with phantom threat. DeBuff -Wave of Grief -3 on attack/saves. -Crushing Despair -1-2 combo with wave of grief. -2 atk/dmg/save -Phantom Threat -someone still having a hard time hitting? instant flanking! -Herald's Call -slow a bunch of enemies for 1 round. (1st level) -Distort Speech -can seriously shutdown mages -50% chance to miscast/activate items, and fortitude save, which isn't where mages typically excel. -Mind Fog -set them up for wave and crushing despair at higher levels. -10 wisdom means sets them up for other spellcasters devastating will-saving spells. Gotta go, but curious to see what you guys think. later.
pvrhye 06-23-05, 08:29 AM	Arcane Strike + Inspire Courage makes any bard a melee monster. At 20 you're looking at +11 to hit and + 6d4+11 damage for 1 feat.... instant combat viability.
Atch 07-12-05, 10:59 AM	I apologize for dusting this thread off and messing with it, but I am confused. Is or is not a bard good in a dungeon crawl? Does Suggestion work in combat and if not, what other options does a bard have to considered useful by the rest of the party in combat?
AramilWindwalker 07-12-05, 11:48 AM	considering the stats considered most important, I will suggest a merfolk(barring restrictions for locations of course)LA+1 for +2 dex,con,cha and bard favored class. hope it helps
Caelic 07-12-05, 12:08 PM	Very nice post Yekoj! The really problem I see, and was already mencioned here, is that you can´t fascinate/suggestion in combat, and that´s a great disadvantage. Don´t know how your party or DM is, but in my case the monsters simply appear and is rare the opportunity to actually planning the combat. Also, I think sublime chord fits almost all bard builds. It´s simply broken I'm a bit shocked that nobody seems to have mentioned THE bard-ability-to-end-all-bard-abilities, the ability that truly makes the Diplo-monster broken beyond all repair: Soothing Voice. Gained from the first half-elven racial substitution level of Bard, this ability functions as the Calm Emotions spell, with a DC equal to the bard's Diplomacy check. In short: it allows the bard to stop a fight after it's started and force the enemy to listen to him. Given that a properly built half-elven bard can have a Diplomacy check of +30 or higher by third level, that means most enemies are only going to be saving on a natural 20.
Atch 07-12-05, 12:52 PM	Given that a properly built half-elven bard can have a Diplomacy check of +30 or higher by third level, that means most enemies are only going to be saving on a natural 20. Ok I'll bite. What is properly equiped for a third level bard? :thinks:
Caelic 07-12-05, 01:19 PM	Half-elven bard2/marshal 1 1. Bard 1: Negotiator 2. Marshal 1: Skill Focus: Diplomacy 3. Bard 2: Cooperative Synergy (I may be mistaken on the name--Races of Destiny feat, increases synergy bonuses from +2 to _3) 6 ranks: +6 Charisma: +4 Motivate Charisma aura: +4 Synergy Bonus: +9 Racial Bonus: +2 SF: Diplomacy: +3 Negotiator: +2 That's 30. With a masterwork skill kit and a Friendly Face spell, we're up to 37 with minimal effort.
Aurelius 07-19-05, 07:31 PM	I couldn't find it anywhere, so i just thought it ought to be in here for people to see. The Pala-Bard (6-level base build, 2 versions) This is a melee-oriented bard/paladin multiclass that depends very highly on Cha. Required Feats: Devoted Performer (Complete adventurer: Bard levels count for smite damage, paladin levels count for bardic music uses/day, paladin can multiclass with bard Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn): Cha to hit with a 1h slashingweapon while h Version 1: any race Level/Class/Feats: 1: Bard 1, Power Attack 2: Bard 2 3: Paladin 1, Devoted Performer (Source: Complete Adventurer) 4: Paladin 2 5: Paladin 3 6: Paladin 4, Divine Might 9: Snowflake Wardance (Source: Frostburn) This combines rather well with the Half-Elf Substitution level. This should make Bard 2/Paladin 18 quite playable. Mix in more bards level as you like, at the cost of hit points (hitting should be well taken care of by Snowflake Wardance). The 2nd Bard level can be replaced with a level of marshal for Cha bonus (something) One option (required good wis as well) is the Unearthed Arcana Divine Bard continued into Fist of Raziel or some other paladinish prestige class, for smite on top of all this. The second requires apprentice-level character and human for the feat. I'm not sure of the legality of this build. Race: Human 1: Bard/Paladin Apprentice (Bard Primary): Power Attack, Devoted Performer 2: Paladin 1 3: Bard 2: Snowflake Wardance 4: Paladin 2 5: Paladin 3 6: Paladin 4: Divine Might Straight bard is an option thereafter, though something to improve your survivability is probably a good idea. Many other options are also open though. Addons Mystic Wanderer 1 (Cha to AC) Note: if you can get Soldier of Light from deities and demigods, Soldier of Light 2 is straight-up better than Paladin 4. This also makes it fit into sublime Chord, by for example Bard 7/Soldier of Light 2/Knight Phantom 1/Sublime Chord 1/Knight Phantom 9
amatulic 08-16-05, 12:51 AM	I apologize for dusting this thread off and messing with it, but I am confused. Is or is not a bard good in a dungeon crawl? Does Suggestion work in combat and if not, what other options does a bard have to considered useful by the rest of the party in combat?Suggestion doesn't work in combat. It can be useful if you happen across a potential enemy that doesn't immediately fight. This happens, for example, if your party is walking across an open field and spots an enemy in the distance, in which case you can walk up without drawing weapons or looking threatening, and fascinate/suggest. I did this once to a giant wild boar we encountered, using the Gnome's speak-to-animals ability, and suggested that he'd be better off leaving us alone forever. We got XP for that encounter. To me, bardic feats useful for combat are: Lingering Song (S&S) to cause music effects to last longer, and Song of the Heart (Eberron) to add an additional +1 to the bonuses from these songs, and Haunting Melody (Eberron) to inflict a -2 penalty to all d20 rolls that opponents attempt. The bardic abilities I typically use in combat are: Diplomacy, song of Inspire Courage, song of Inspire Greatness (9th level), and Haunting Melody (the feat is actually an extra bardic music effect, useful at low levels because Inspire Courage is the only other useful song in combat). Diplomacy: It's easy for a bard to have a high diplomacy bonus (see a couple messages above this one). With the Smooth Talk feat, the penalty for a rushed diplomacy check in combat is only -5 rather than -10. Diplomacy can easily stop combat if played by the rules. But the rules are broken. The DMs I know don't agree with fixed DC saves for skills used against others, as with Diplomacy and Tumble. I agree - Diplomacy should get an oppose check with circumstance penalties. Monte Cook (one of the original D&D designers) developed the following variant of Diplomacy, which naturally evolved out of his own game-playing: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_Diplomacy -- I kind of like this; it makes Diplomacy more challenging. My DM won't let the effect be permanent; attacking the enemy shifts his attitude back to hostile, but at least it can buy a round or two for the cleric to heal the wounded before combat resumes. Inspire Courage: The instrumental effects have been updated in 3.5 (see Complete Adventurer). Using a Horn or Trumpet still grants +1 to Inspire Courage, but it only lasts 1 round after playing stops, after which the song effect reverts to normal for the remaining 4 rounds. Double these lengths with the Lingering Song feat. Inspire Greatness: It's good to play this on a lute, because it lets you perform as if you were 1 bard level higher. At certain levels you can target more allies so a lute will let you do this earlier. For that matter, a lute also does this for Inspire Courage, where you get an additional +1 at level 7 (normally it's at level 8). Haunting Melody (Eberron feat): Used like any other bard song; consumes 1 bardic music. Causes everyone within 30' to be shaken for a number of rounds equal to your bard level. For a bard with high Charisma, the save DC is higher than spells (10 + 1/2 bard levels + Cha modifier), so it works against most opponents. A Shaken enemy takes a -2 penalty to all d20 rolls (attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks). This -2 penalty tilts the combat in your party's favor, and can make a big difference. I find "combat" spellcasting (i.e. spell cast against enemies) to be rather useless for a bard. My current bard is level 11 (I've played her since 7th). Her Cha modifier of 8 gives her a high spell DC, but most of her enemies can either save against it or they have spell resistance, so her spells often fail. She casts spells that help the party, or spells that serve as useful tools (like unseen servant). She does have a few spells to cast against enemies, for example Crushing Despair stacks on Haunting Melody (making a total -4 penalty to all d20 rolls), and the 4th level Shout and Stone Shatter are pretty cool. As my bard grows I swap out the lower-level combat spells with more useful things, using the spell swap allowed every 3 levels. A spell is most useful if you can raise its spell DC. The Cloaker Flute from Savage Species is a good example of this; it has a save DC of 10 + Perform Ranks. If you max out perform ranks, this save DC can be higher than a normal spell DC. My DM allowed me to commission the creation of a "horn of stun" using Sound Burst after I calculated the value of this save DC as 2000 gp. See http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=469428 for the derivation (and calculation of the true value of the Cloaker Flute in 3.5). This horn allows my bard to stun opponents where a Sound Burst spell would fail. The other thing a bard can do in combat is archery, but one needs to expend precious feats to do it well, and lots of gold for an effective bow that does more than 1d6 damage. My current bard doesn't fight, but she could if she got herself a decent weapon. We have a party of 6 in our current game, so she generally hangs back and makes everyone else better at what they do, and makes the enemies worse. When we're in town, she's the one who does most of the talking. I don't like to multi-class if I'm playing a bard. A bard needs all the levels he can get. I don't even like any of the prestige classes because they have lousy saves and skill point growth -- two things I feel are important for a bard who concentrates on performance and diplomacy. -Alex
amatulic 08-21-05, 05:06 AM	Half-elven bard2/marshal 1 1. Bard 1: Negotiator 2. Marshal 1: Skill Focus: Diplomacy 3. Bard 2: Cooperative Synergy (I may be mistaken on the name--Races of Destiny feat, increases synergy bonuses from +2 to _3) 6 ranks: +6 Charisma: +4 Motivate Charisma aura: +4 Synergy Bonus: +9 Racial Bonus: +2 SF: Diplomacy: +3 Negotiator: +2 That's 30. With a masterwork skill kit and a Friendly Face spell, we're up to 37 with minimal effort.Good build! However, to me Diplomacy has most use in combat. That 30 goes down to 20 with the -10 penalty for a rushed diplomacy check. If you make this character Human, you can end up with the SAME bonus for rushed diplomacy AND get one extra feat. Here's how. You'll lose the +2 Half-Elf racial bonus and the +3 synergy bonus from the Complementary Insight feat. This leaves +25 bonus to Diplomacy. Take the Smooth Talk feat (PGF, must be taken at 1st level) to have only -5 penalty on a rushed diplomacy check instead of -10, giving you a bonus of +20 for a rushed check, just like with the Half-Elf. So you still have the same Diplomacy for combat -- AND YOU GET AN EXTRA FEAT from being human. You also get more skill points (4 + 1 per level), which quickly make up for losing 7-points worth of Half-Elf skill bonuses. The biggest downside, to me, is that you lose low-light vision. -Alex
IThoughtISawA... 08-21-05, 10:52 AM	If you make this character Human, you can end up with the SAME bonus for rushed diplomacy AND get one extra feat. Here's how. But if you do that, it doesn't work! They key to the HE diplo-Bard is the Soothing Voice (Su) feature granted by the half elf 1st level bard substitution level. Keep in mind that the DC isn't your diplomacy bonus, but your diplomacy check, so our "standard" HE brd2/mshl1's DC for an "in combat" check is d20+30-10- a range of 21-40 AT THIRD LEVEL. This scales even more as the character goes up in level- 1 per level + 2 for each Cha mod increase (motivate CHarisma marshall aura) + spells/additional feats/etc. I don't have the build readilly available, but its fairly easy to do a Bard/Marshal/Stormsinger/Evangalist build that has a well over 120 Diplomacy modifier. I don't remember where it came from, but the best snap shot of this build is something like this this: DM: The colossal red dragon rears back, as if preparying to unleash the maelstrom of its firey breath on the party. Diplo-Bard: Chill! DM: The flame of his breath washes across all of you doing... (reaches for dice) Diplo-Bard: Wait! He has to make his save first- its DC 140ish, and if he fails, he has to "Chill." DM: cries
atlatyl 08-21-05, 11:07 AM	They key to the HE diplo-Bard is the Soothing Voice (Su) feature granted by the half elf 1st level bard substitution level. OK, I've been out of the game for a few years....what book does soothing voice come from?
Delvor 10-01-05, 04:51 PM	Any help with that? I would also like to know the books. Whats' the marshall class? Half-elven bard2/marshal 1 1. Bard 1: Negotiator 2. Marshal 1: Skill Focus: Diplomacy 3. Bard 2: Cooperative Synergy (I may be mistaken on the name--Races of Destiny feat, increases synergy bonuses from +2 to _3) 6 ranks: +6 Charisma: +4 Motivate Charisma aura: +4 Synergy Bonus: +9 Racial Bonus: +2 SF: Diplomacy: +3 Negotiator: +2 That's 30. With a masterwork skill kit and a Friendly Face spell, we're up to 37 with minimal effort.
World Savers Inc. 10-01-05, 05:55 PM	what about Bard 4/ Marshal1/ Evangelist 5/ Seeker of the Song 10 This build will make you a decent support character with the various abilities of the Seeker of the Song combined with Evangelist (for the Diplomacy craziness adn the Stacking with Inspire Courage. However I really like the abiliteis of the Seeker of the Song PRC so a Bard 9/Marshal 1/ Seeker of the Song 10 would also be an interesting build. A marvellous support character. and face man (though the previous build would be a little better). Though i wonder if the Seeker of the Song Abilities can be combined with the Words of Creation since the words of creation were here before the seeker of the song. and concept wise they synergize nicely.
amatulic 10-10-05, 12:33 AM	Any help with that? I would also like to know the books. Whats' the marshall class?Marshal is on p11 of the Miniatures Handbook. At 1st level he gets the Skill Focus Diplomacy feat, and also one minor aura which adds his Cha modifier to something -- in this case you pick the 'Motivate Charsima' aura that adds your Cha modifier to Charisma-based skill checks. The Complementary Insight feat that gives you a +3 synergy bonus on synergistic skills is from Races of Destiny p150. Folks here talk about Words of Creation from BoED. It's an exalted feat; and if you have people in your party who aren't good-aligned, you won't be able to stay exalted for long, if your DM goes by the book. Once you stray from the path of righteousness, even once, you lose the feat and can't get it back. It's pointless to take any exalted features unless your whole party decides to be Good, or better still, you are playing an exalted campaign. The character I'm playing next isn't a bard at all, but a Fighter 2 / Marshal 5 / Dervish 4 human. I was intrigued by the Dervish class (from Complete Warrior) but I love playing a bard, so combining a Dervish with a Marshal offered a way to bestow bard-like benefits on to the party. 5 levels of Marshal is optimal in terms of what he offers. With a +3 magic item and a +3 Motivate Charisma aura, he has a +31 Diplomacy bonus. This fits his backstory since he's kinda lazy and would rather not fight if he doesn't have to. -Alex
amatulic 10-10-05, 12:44 AM	But if you do that, it doesn't work! The key to the HE diplo-Bard is the Soothing Voice (Su) feature granted by the half elf 1st level bard substitution level. Keep in mind that the DC isn't your diplomacy bonus, but your diplomacy check, so our "standard" HE brd2/mshl1's DC for an "in combat" check is d20+30-10- a range of 21-40 AT THIRD LEVEL.The human build I proposed has exactly the same "in combat check" of d20+25-5 - a range of 21-40 at third level. Using the same ability score of 18 for Charisma as Caelic posted in his Msh2/Brd1 build: 6 ranks: +6 Charisma: +4 Motivate Charisma aura: +4 Synergy Bonus: +6 Marshal feat: Skill Focus Diplomacy: +3 1st level feat: Negotiator: +2 Bonus human feat: Smooth Talk 3rd level feat: your choice! (not possible with half-elf build) That's 25. During combat, you subtract -5 instead of -10 due to Smooth Talk. In combat, you end up exactly like the half-elf build but with an extra feat, which you can use to up your combat diplomacy even further than you can get with a half-elf at 3rd level. Possible feats might be Sacred Vow from BoED, Courteous Magocracy from FR, Evil Brand from BVD, Trustworthy from S&S. To me, a feat is more precious than the racial benefits offered by the half-elf from the Races of Destiny book. The advantage to the half-elf is that you get to use fascinate/suggestion during combat, in the form of soothing voice/command. I admit that's useful, but the book doesn't indicate whether this is really a combat ability. Fascinate/suggestion certainly isn't. It would be up to the DM to decide. DM: The colossal red dragon rears back, as if preparying to unleash the maelstrom of its firey breath on the party. Diplo-Bard: Chill! DM: The flame of his breath washes across all of you doing... (reaches for dice) Diplo-Bard: Wait! He has to make his save first- its DC 140ish, and if he fails, he has to "Chill." DM: criesHeh. I like that! But what will really happen is that this bard will make the game not-fun for the rest of the players. Diplomacy becomes an ability that unbalances the game. The DM will decide (and rightly so) that a fixed DC for a successful diplomacy check is broken. I note that Monte Cook, one of D&D's original designers, uses a variable-DC check now, where the opponent gets to make an opposed check. I like this better, myself. The game should be challenging, not a walk in the park. -Alex
SwordOfJustUs 11-08-05, 04:45 PM	whoa this thread is really far back in the list :D
amatulic 11-12-05, 11:38 AM	whoa this thread is really far back in the list :DYup, it's over 2 years old, started back before the 3.5 rules came out. The original Bard's Handbook that started it all is still relevant, though, especially if you take into account the followup postings over the past year. -Alex
Caelic 11-12-05, 12:53 PM	Amatulic, I think you may still be missing the point of taking half-elf. It's not really about the overall bonus to Diplomacy, although that's certainly important. It's all about the Soothing Voice. Here's the thing: just about any bard can get Diplomacy up to a huge bonus. The problem is, there's not all that much to do with that bonus. Once a fight starts, your Diplomacy is worthless. Sure, you can spend a round talking, but the enemy's not listening. Soothing Voice, on the other hand, changes all that. It's not a normal Diplomacy check; it's a Calm Emotions spell with a save DC equal to your Diplomacy skill roll. A normal Diplomacy expert is great up until the fight starts, and then has to get out of the way. A half-elf with Soothing Voice can stop the fight and FORCE the enemy to listen to what he has to say. That's the difference, and it's a collossal one. A half-elf bard with Diplomacy of +30 and Soothing Voice is infinitely more powerful than a human bard with Diplomacy of +50.
dog45 11-13-05, 02:01 AM	edit: wrong button...meant to hit new thread.
True Avatar 11-13-05, 02:20 PM	Actually words of creation is one of the few exalted feats that allow you to possibly atone for misdeads to get it back (pg 39). All the feats that make you lose them once commit an evil act have a special on the feat that says you break your vow you lose the feat for good Words of creation lacks this special section (pg48 for WoC and a few sample vow feats).
amatulic 11-16-05, 12:24 AM	A half-elf with Soothing Voice can stop the fight and FORCE the enemy to listen to what he has to say. That's the difference, and it's a collossal one. A half-elf bard with Diplomacy of +30 and Soothing Voice is infinitely more powerful than a human bard with Diplomacy of +50. I disagree with your last statement, because a +50 diplomacy is only a +45 for the human in combat, with the Smooth Talk feat, which is still better than a +30 -- remember, the fight hasn't really stopped, you're still under initiative, so the DM will still penalize you for a rushed diplomacy check on the calmed creature. This penalty is -10 for the half-elf, but only -5 for my human. I'd still rather have 45 than 20. In any case, I now understand what you're trying to explain. It also occurs to me that if there's other fighting going on, the RoD book implies that the calmed creature will pay attention to the fight rather than the bard -- and of course if he's attacked, the spell is broken. You're right though, it's a good thing to have. -Alex
nihility 11-30-05, 09:21 PM	:plotting:
Dogged 12-23-05, 11:37 AM	I disagree with your last statement, because a +50 diplomacy is only a +45 for the human in combat, with the Smooth Talk feat, which is still better than a +30 -- remember, the fight hasn't really stopped, you're still under initiative, so the DM will still penalize you for a rushed diplomacy check on the calmed creature. This penalty is -10 for the half-elf, but only -5 for my human. I'd still rather have 45 than 20. In any case, I now understand what you're trying to explain. It also occurs to me that if there's other fighting going on, the RoD book implies that the calmed creature will pay attention to the fight rather than the bard -- and of course if he's attacked, the spell is broken. You're right though, it's a good thing to have. -Alex I believe you guys fundamentally have a different idea on how Diplomacy in combat works. I would like to know the answer to this myself. The skill description doesn't say one way or the other if Diplomacy can be used during melee. It does say that you can use a rushed check (at a -10) to "head off" a fight before it begins. It seems to me that once the fight starts, you cannot use Diplomacy.
Drood 01-03-06, 09:11 AM	One feat that I really like as a bard is Nymph's Kiss (BoED). It grants +1 to saves vs spells, +2 to all charisma-related checks, AND 1 bonus skill point per level starting when you take the feat. This is a great 1st-level feat obviously.
amatulic 01-04-06, 01:28 AM	I believe you guys fundamentally have a different idea on how Diplomacy in combat works. I would like to know the answer to this myself. The skill description doesn't say one way or the other if Diplomacy can be used during melee. It does say that you can use a rushed check (at a -10) to "head off" a fight before it begins. It seems to me that once the fight starts, you cannot use Diplomacy.Well, before a fight begins, you don't really need to do a rushed check. That's only necessary once you're under initiative, and then each round lasts 6 seconds, which definitely means rushed checks are needed because changing an NPC attitude usually requires 1 minute or more. Diplomacy during a fight is reasonable, and every DM I know allows it if (a) you can come up with a reasonable argument, and (b) the target understands what you're saying. For example, if a formidable enemy is taking a beating, you could say "it would save us both a lot of trouble if we stopped fighting" or "it's in your best interest to not hinder us" and if you win the diplomacy check, the opponent thinks it's a reasonable suggestion. A good DM will generally not allow you to say "Surrender or die!" as a Diplomacy check -- that's a belligerent threat better suited to an Intimidate check. Diplomacy means negotiation. Caelic and I disagree in two areas: (1) I disagreed that a half-elf with Soothing Voice makes a better "combat diplomat" than a human with Smooth Talk as a bonus feat; I say that during combat, the human has a higher diplomacy check bonus, but Caelic disagrees that this is most important. (2) I disagree that Soothing voice is a combat ability. The book isn't clear on that point. As a DM I would never allow it as a combat ability, or I would place severe limits on its use, otherwise it severely unbalances my game. -Alex
amatulic 01-04-06, 01:36 AM	One feat that I really like as a bard is Nymph's Kiss (BoED). It grants +1 to saves vs spells, +2 to all charisma-related checks, AND 1 bonus skill point per level starting when you take the feat. This is a great 1st-level feat obviously.I'd love to take that feat, but if you're in a party of chaotic/neutral characters, it's really hard to maintain the "exalted" status necessary to keep this feat -- and for a bard, a feat is too precious to lose. The one I like is Song of the Heart from Eberron. It adds +1 to all your song bonuses, which is especially useful for Song of Courage and Inspire Greatness (and it bestows an extra hit die for Inspire Greatness). It also increases the save DC of Haunting Melody if you have that feat. -Alex
Tenken 02-19-06, 04:26 PM	Fascinate: The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Soothing Voice: This ability works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability, with the following differences... I don't want to reprint the rest of what Soothing Voice says, but in no place does it state that one of the differences is that it can stop a battle once it's started. Given that, you have to assume that it "works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability". So I'd have to agree that the human would be much better.
atlatyl 02-19-06, 05:07 PM	Fascinate: The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Soothing Voice: This ability works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability, with the following differences... I don't want to reprint the rest of what Soothing Voice says, but in no place does it state that one of the differences is that it can stop a battle once it's started. Given that, you have to assume that it "works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability". So I'd have to agree that the human would be much better. Soothing voice = calm emotions as the spell. Yes it will stop combat, if the subjects fail their saving throw -- then it gives the cleric a chance to heal without uncurring attacks of opportunity, the wizard and drood to summon allies...and the bard has a chance of using diplomacy now without penalty since 'emotions are calmed' -- of course once the party tank starts swinging his sword again, combat starts all over again.
Amnarii 05-07-06, 06:52 PM	Fascinate: The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Soothing Voice: This ability works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability, with the following differences... I don't want to reprint the rest of what Soothing Voice says, but in no place does it state that one of the differences is that it can stop a battle once it's started. Given that, you have to assume that it "works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability". So I'd have to agree that the human would be much better. Well, you didn't want to reprint the most important part which makes your assumption wrong. Whether that is intentional or not, I will go ahead and reprint the rest of that here... "This ability works in much the same way as the half-elf bard's fascinate ability, with the following differences. The creature to be soothed must be within 30 feet of the bard and must understand the language she is speaking. To use this ability, the half-elf bard makes a diplomacy check. Her check result is the DC for each creature's Will save against the effect. On success, the creature is affected as if by the calm emotions spell. The effect lasts as long as the creature listens to the bard, although the creature may wander off on its own if there is nothing to keep its interest." The calm emotions spell (from the SRD) has the following effects: "This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures. This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime." A successful diplomacy check cannot duplicate all the effects of that ability, no matter how many ranks you have. Also, contrary to the earlier post, my experience is that the majority of DMs do not allow diplomacy to be used in combat. The core rules do not specify one way or the other, and while my personal interpretation is that it should be allowed, few DMs I have played under agree with that.
FiestFan 05-07-06, 09:28 PM	Without putting words in anyone's mouth, I believe the point the non-combat only allowed Soothing Voice camp is making is that, because the wording makes success seem predicated on 'working like a fascinate spell', and because the calm emotions effect only happens on a successful check, you're not allowed to make the check to get to calm emotions in the first place, if combat is going on. This is consistent with how DMs I know have ruled it, also, BTW.
Amnarii 05-07-06, 09:47 PM	I see the reasoning behind that line of thought, but I disagree with it. Not simply because of the Calm Emotions effect, but because the mechanics for performing the check are detailed as part of the difference, and state nothing about combat. As in, "The creature to be soothed must be within 30 feet of the bard and must understand the language she is speaking. To use this ability, the half-elf bard makes a diplomacy check. Her check result is the DC for each creature's Will save against the effect." Perhaps I am misreading it, but with the various DMs I have played under, with the majority of them soothing voice is treated as a primarily combat ability (and they do not allow diplomacy checks in combat at all).
amatulic 05-09-06, 10:13 AM	I see the reasoning behind that line of thought, but I disagree with it. Not simply because of the Calm Emotions effect, but because the mechanics for performing the check are detailed as part of the difference, and state nothing about combat. As in, "The creature to be soothed must be within 30 feet of the bard and must understand the language she is speaking. To use this ability, the half-elf bard makes a diplomacy check. Her check result is the DC for each creature's Will save against the effect." Perhaps I am misreading it, but with the various DMs I have played under, with the majority of them soothing voice is treated as a primarily combat ability (and they do not allow diplomacy checks in combat at all). If a DM doesn't allow diplomacy checks in combat at all, why would a DM allow the diplomacy check necessary to proceed with Soothing Voice? My experience doesn't agree with yours -- the DM's I have played with all allow Diplomacy in combat, but with modifiers, and if successful the lull lasts only one round (enough time for the cleric to move or treat a wound). That is, they (and I) regard the DMG rules as broken, and instead modify it similar to the ways Monte Cook has done it, either from Arcana Evolved (where the oppose check gets a HD bonus) or http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_Diplomacy Done that way, diplomacy is workable in combat, not too unbalancing or powerful. Soothing Voice, on the other hand, IS too unbalancing and powerful, and as a DM I would rule that it's as unworkable as "fascinate" in combat, or impose some bonus on opponents or penalty on the caster, similar to the modified diplomacy check. -A
Amnarii 05-09-06, 10:42 AM	If a DM doesn't allow diplomacy checks in combat at all, why would a DM allow the diplomacy check necessary to proceed with Soothing Voice? My experience doesn't agree with yours -- the DM's I have played with all allow Diplomacy in combat, but with modifiers, and if successful the lull lasts only one round (enough time for the cleric to move or treat a wound). That is, they (and I) regard the DMG rules as broken, and instead modify it similar to the ways Monte Cook has done it, either from Arcana Evolved (where the oppose check gets a HD bonus) or http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_Diplomacy Done that way, diplomacy is workable in combat, not too unbalancing or powerful. Soothing Voice, on the other hand, IS too unbalancing and powerful, and as a DM I would rule that it's as unworkable as "fascinate" in combat, or impose some bonus on opponents or penalty on the caster, similar to the modified diplomacy check. -A I am not saying I agree with the majority of the DMs I play under in all rulings - this topic included; however, from my own extended discussions with various individuals over this, the reasoning between allowing a soothing voice use and not a diplomacy use is primarily the difference between ability types. A skill is extraordinary in use, i.e. it can't be dispelled or countered, functions in anti-magic zones, etc., et al. Bardic Music is a Supernatural (Su) ability. To the majority of DMs I have played under, a skill is not sufficient in any means to take a hostile foe in combat down to even peaceful, much less friendly; that requires magic (including the use of a Supernatural ability). Even though the bard is making a diplomacy check instead of a perform check, it is a Su ability, is based on the bardic music ability, and requires an expenditure of such to enact. So - while I may not entirely agree with that reasoning, it has been repeated to me in many variations over the past few months and I can pass it on to you from them.
amatulic 05-11-06, 12:37 AM	If a DM doesn't allow diplomacy checks in combat at all, why would a DM allow the diplomacy check necessary to proceed with Soothing Voice?Even though the bard is making a diplomacy check instead of a perform check, it is a Su ability, is based on the bardic music ability, and requires an expenditure of such to enact.Yes, that seems logical. Thanks for the explanation. (If it came up when I am a DM I'd still penalize the ability during combat though, similar to a rushed diplomacy check. And I would also modify the rushed check similar to one of Monte Cook's variants.) -A
orco 06-07-06, 01:49 AM	I'd like to point out that the DC check for Soothing Voice is a Will Save check, only for purposes of this particular ability, the "versus" DC check is the Opponents Will save versus the Bard's Diplomacy check. This contrasts the Smooth Talk feat that is a "versus" DC check of Opponent's Diplomacy save versus Bard's Diplomacy check. Furthermore, the Soothing Voice ability allows the Bard to effectively quell a Raged Opponent (using a Will save DC check, as just explained). Rage effects cannot be quelled using Diplomacy as you would be effectively reasoning with a Raged person (Not correct.). Either way, it really doesn't matter as the DM's opinion is the only one that matters. Cheers.