Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duncs 12-05-06, 11:53 AM	Hey guys. I come before you today for help. I have (possibly foolishly) made the claim that an optimised bard could beat a wizard in a fight. My friend said that there was no way that this could happen. Thus, we made the bet: 20 Bard vs 20 Wizard. Core books only (PHB, DMG, MM1), 25 point buy, standard lvl 20 starting money. Straight fight, roll initiative and go. I was thinking of going for something like opening with Otto's Irresistable Dance and closing in, but I am scared of a few things: Disintegrate. With Maximise spell. Power Word: Kill. You know, the small things. He is going to be optimising his wizard, however he wants, but it not allowed your help (I think the odds are stacked against me enough as it is). I am allowed your input. There will be no buff time although long duration buffs (hours long) may be allowed. Can you do this, or do I not have a commoner's chance against a Balor on this one? EDIT: Other ideas would be to Dominate him and then get him to go to sleep, and coup de grace him, or something like that, or to focus on ways to grapple him and keep him like that. I dont reckon he will pack many stilled spells, although maximised and quickened spells may well feature prominently.
FriendlyFrog 12-05-06, 12:05 PM	Well, the only thing that a Bard can do better is the use of Use magical device. If you can use that skill to end the battle, the Bard is better. Otherwise a Wizard is a lot stronger. But which class is stronger actually has nothing to do with winning the other one. At high levels the only thing that matters is initiative, unless you have free time to buff. The first character that fails a save against a save-or-be-very-screwed effect loses, as simple as that. Even a Fighter (the weakest of core classes) can beat a Druid (the strongest of core classes) if he gets to do a full attack when the opponent hasn't yet prepared himself for the battle. First I'd try to maximize my initiative, second I'd try to get the save DC od one of my spells high enough to screw the Wizard big time. Other than that, there is not much chance of winning. When the Wizard gets off a Time stop and fully buffs himself, you have a very little chance of beating his superior spells. Hell, he could easily beat you by casting only one spell: Gate to call in a Solar.
Yorath_theWolf 12-05-06, 12:06 PM	if you try and play to the Wiz's strengths (Will Saves and greater and more powerfull spell selection) then yeah you're well and truely screwed here. if you play to your strengths, are sneaky, skilled and lucky enough then you might stand a chance in hell of surviveing and either drawing or maybe winning. as I dn'na have the books in front of me, me thinks your best bet here is to go for self buffing spells (Invis, Gr. Invis if ya get it, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance[cause more HP is ALWAYS a good thing], possible Greater Magic Weapon[to further inprove you lots of +1 upgrades on your weapon], See Invis[do bards get that?] and the like... hopefully set up so you can can rapidly cast them) and of course pump your intiative cause if he goes first, well it's all over and waiting for the fat lady to quick wailing. really your best bet is a pumped up distance hitter... and saddly as you're limited to core materials only you can't get yourself a wonderfull Mage Bane composite longbow here. but no, without quite a bit going for you, in a pure duel a lvl 20 Wiz vs a lvl 20 Bard, well it just won't go well for the bard unless you find a way to really and truly cheat for all you're worth.
rilem 12-05-06, 12:15 PM	Mage Bane isn't core. In core, most of the bard's spells will do nothing vs. a wizard (nearly all your offensive spells are will-based). Your best bet is to twink out Dexterity and use a Staff of Disintegrate (or something else requiring a weak save) for when you when initiative. (Maybe pick a less obvious spell, as he could easily have a contingency spell against that tactic). Or you could just UMD a gate scroll.
Doodle 12-05-06, 12:28 PM	The Bard's fascinate DC is based on your perform check. No way the wizard is going to make that. You can then use a suggestion, whose DC at level 20 is 20+ charisma modifier, which should be difficult for the wizard to make. Fascniate lasts 24 hours, suggest that the wizard forget all his spells. Done. Me.
bungo_underhill 12-05-06, 12:30 PM	How far apart will you start? What type of terrain will you be in?
rilem 12-05-06, 12:35 PM	Fascinate's great, but this contest assumes a straight-up fight — an obvious threat, so the effect won't work.
Empirate 12-05-06, 12:38 PM	I like Doodle's idea, but I still think the UMD road is probably quite good. Wiz20 can easily have a very high Will Save. As others have pointed out: Max Initiative. UMD a Scroll of Antimagic Field, move up, kill him by slapping him to death if you need to, there's nothing he can do in an AMF. Not that that is very sporting... he could claim that AMF is on HIS spell list not yours, so effectively a Wizard beat a Wizard here. Oh, and you should probably go for something like best of three or even best of five. Try to think up different strategies for several matches then. Otherwise nothing will be proven.
nnnnn 12-05-06, 12:43 PM	The Bard's fascinate DC is based on your perform check. No way the wizard is going to make that. You can then use a suggestion, whose DC at level 20 is 20+ charisma modifier, which should be difficult for the wizard to make. Fascniate lasts 24 hours, suggest that the wizard forget all his spells. Done. Me. the wizard knows he's going to face a Bard. If he doesn't have Mind Blank up he deserves a long, slow, embarassing death. nnnnn
Darhelion 12-05-06, 12:59 PM	Candles of Invocation > Scrolls of Gate. No need to UMD. Cheaper by 425 gp a piece. This, however, is not playing to your strengths; a 20th level commoner could use this tactic. To truly emphasize the Bard's strengths, especially knowing the fight you're going into, let's take a look at what you can do both the same and differently than the wizard. 1) You're both spellcasters. You're spontaneous, while he's prepped, which is a smidgen of an advantage if you can find a way to throw off his carefully planned set of spells to cast. The wizard's versatility will not play in here (except in any staves or scrolls he's crafted...that could be a problem) as much as yours will, because the "I can do it...tomorrow" will not cut it. 2) He -will- have more spells to cast than you. Despite a full caster progression, you're not really a primary caster. You only have up to sixth level spells. However, your caster level can be as high as his. Make sure one of your fifth level known spells is Greater Dispell Magic, and zot him with it once or twice if you suspect he's got buffs or contingent spells hanging around. If you know sort of where he is, Glitterdust or GDispell can make an invisible wizard visible. A flying wizard hit with GDispell had better hope he's got Featherfall. (Remember, GDispell saturates at a +20 bonus due to your caster level, and you -are- a 20th level caster.) 3) A bard is at his heart a support character. His songs are designed for buffs and making groups of allies stronger. Consider Leadership. Your Cha should be your skyrocket stat (a +5 tome and a +6 cloak of Cha should be on your shopping list), so your leadership score should be great. Obviously, your lowest-level followers won't be terribly useful. Consider having a high-level follower, if not your cohort, as a rogue who helps your low-level followers hide. In addition, a scroll of Mass Invisibility - or a wand - to UMD and use on them would be useful. Remember to GDispell the wizard's invisibility-piercing buffs. The best use for the hidden low-level followers is to arm them with bows or crossbows and have them ready to spring up and launch a volley at the wizard when you think you have him at his most vulnerable. If you can afford some magic ammo to load into their weapons to increase damage, do so. Cohort as a counterspell-master sorcerer could really ruin the wizard's day. Just make sure your cohort isn't your only trick; this is to showcase the Bard's strengths, so the cohort should support those. High-level follower rogues with good hide/move silently can try to pickpocket the wizard and steal his more useful magic items. Heck, steal his spell component pouch if you can. Take away his more obvious foci. It won't cripple all his spellcasting, but it can severely limit his options. Use your own Inspire Competance and other buffing musics to aid them, and gear your spell selection towards keeping the wizard's attention on you while you buff and enable your followers. In short, harry, annoy, disable, and otherwise force your wizard foe to use up his resources. Bardic knowledge will be next to useless in a head-on confrontation like this. Bardic music (especially with followers to buff) and bardic magic are both useful tools. Have Cure * Wounds spells in your repretoir; the wizard can't do that, so you can increase your total hp in the battle. Have haste, and make it a battle of physical attacks, if you can. Carry a Rod of Absorption; laugh when his Disintegrate and other save/lose spells simply fail, and then power your own spells. Or hand it off to your sorc cohort, so he can use his spells more often. Hope this helps; the cohort/followers may not be allowed in this duel (not sure on the rules), but even if not, use them to get discounted items. Surely they're willing to give you items at cost, to support their beloved leader as he duels for his (and by extention their) honor.
FeceMan 12-05-06, 01:17 PM	Yeah, you're pretty well screwed in a one-on-one fight. Personally, I'd try to get in range ASAP and use greater shout to hurt his spellcasting. Maybe summon a group of lower-level monsters and cast veil on them so they look like you. Maybe animate a covered wagon and have it hurl itself at him? (You might consider doing so to a sheet and having it grapple him. Animate a huge-sized tapestry and have it grapple him for hilarity.)
MaximumHavoc 12-05-06, 01:30 PM	simply put, he who wins initiative, wins the fight. if he has celerity, then you cannot win. assuming that he does not have celerity, and that you win initiative, then i would recommend the following: with the following feats: Melodic Casting Subsonics Nymph's Kiss you fascinate the wizard. he is certain to fail his save because . . . Perform example (20th level bard) 23 ranks in Perform +5 abilty modifier bonus from 20 charisma +2 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks from Nymph's Kiss feat +3 ability modifier enhancement bonus from +6 Cloak of Charisma +3 competence bonus on charisma-based checks from circlet of persuasion +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks from use of masterwork instrument ___ +38 on your Perform check (this easily could be higher) you can maintain the fascination for up to 20 rounds, each round attempting to suggest that he expend all of his spells harmlessly (in descending order of spell level). he should fail his save vs suggestion before you have reached the 10th round of fascination. after he starts harmlessly casting his spells, you, using the melodic casting feat, can start casting a spell(s) while you continue to concentrate on fascinating the wizard. the subsonics feat will prevent him from detecting your spell casting, so the fascination would not be interrupted by your spell casting. then , i would suggest casting otto's irresistable dance, followed by a few castings of summon monster vi (celestial polar bears for the grapple and the win!).
Duncs 12-05-06, 01:38 PM	Some absolutely fantastic suggestions there. I especially want to thank Darhelion for his heap of great suggestions. I love the idea of a rod of absorbtion. He *will* use disintegrate. He will. So thats a good thing. I also like the idea of cohorts stealing his items, although he will probably say that cohorts are out of the fight as well as followers. I find it a bit unfair, as it is a legitimate Bard strength, but oh well. More suggestions! He must learn to fear bards!!
FeceMan 12-05-06, 01:54 PM	Some absolutely fantastic suggestions there. I especially want to thank Darhelion for his heap of great suggestions. I love the idea of a rod of absorbtion. He *will* use disintegrate. He will. So thats a good thing. I also like the idea of cohorts stealing his items, although he will probably say that cohorts are out of the fight as well as followers. I find it a bit unfair, as it is a legitimate Bard strength, but oh well. More suggestions! He must learn to fear bards!! Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate seems, to me, to be fair game. Assuming a starting CHA of 15... 23 ranks in perform Skill focus: perform: +3 Tome, level-ups, cloak: +10 Circlet of persuasion: +3 Candle of invocation: +2 Total DC: 41 + d20 (assuming using only one's feet or one's voice; add +2 if using an instrument)
Empirate 12-05-06, 02:15 PM	What about mind blank, silence (or equivalent) and the like? The wizard knows he is going to face a bard, so if he doesn't protect himself against mind-affectin effects and sound-based stuff, well... he doesn't deserve to live! Besides, you might like the Sculpt Sound spell yourself to totally screw everything he's likely to cast with a Verbal component.
starrius 12-05-06, 02:25 PM	blindness and silence are you friends vs a wiz
MaximumHavoc 12-05-06, 02:41 PM	blindness and silence are you friends vs a wiz silence would protect the wizard from the bard's music. but then, i suppose, the bard could use his whip for a trip attempt.
Doodle 12-05-06, 03:10 PM	re: the fascinate option: 1) The OP said core only so a lot of feats/spells/items suggested are out. 2) The OP said buffs may or may not be allowed (so maybe no Mind Blank). In any case, with a 25 point buy in a core only situation I'm happy to let the wizard blow spells slots of buffs rather than damage, summons, etc. 3) Fascinate will work if you are not threatening the wizard - there may be some DM interpretation here, but if you win initiative, or lose initiative and don't attack I think you are fine. The real power is the suggestion follow-up, fascinate by itself is useless. Me.
GaffeR 12-05-06, 03:20 PM	UMD seems to be the popular vote here. Doesn't it seem a bit silly to beat a Wizard with the Wizard's own class abilities? That was a main point of contention in the Wiz 20 vs Fighter 20 thread a while back. A well prepared Wizard shoud sh*tkick your Bard. The Rod of Absorbtion is a cute trick until he casts a Quickened Maximized(via rods?) Timestop and unleashes a few 40 HD celestial gold dragons to beat you into a bloody pulp. The Wizard in the aforementioned contest had something along the lines of: Prismatic Sphere Wall of Stone shaped inside the prismatic sphere (for melee) Wall of iron on the ground (for burrowing) Two Celestial gold dragons with Ring Gates on their heads, the other ends on the wall of iron (for line of sight) 10 rounds of Timestop
MaximumHavoc 12-05-06, 03:31 PM	simply put, he who wins initiative, wins the fight. if he has celerity, then you cannot win. assuming that he does not have celerity, and that you win initiative, then i would recommend the following: with the following feats: Melodic Casting Subsonics Nymph's Kiss you fascinate the wizard. he is certain to fail his save because . . . Perform example (20th level bard) 23 ranks in Perform +5 abilty modifier bonus from 20 charisma +2 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks from Nymph's Kiss feat +3 ability modifier enhancement bonus from +6 Cloak of Charisma +3 competence bonus on charisma-based checks from circlet of persuasion +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks from use of masterwork instrument ___ +38 on your Perform check (this easily could be higher) you can maintain the fascination for up to 20 rounds, each round attempting to suggest that he expend all of his spells harmlessly (in descending order of spell level). he should fail his save vs suggestion before you have reached the 10th round of fascination. after he starts harmlessly casting his spells, you, using the melodic casting feat, can start casting a spell(s) while you continue to concentrate on fascinating the wizard. the subsonics feat will prevent him from detecting your spell casting, so the fascination would not be interrupted by your spell casting. then , i would suggest casting otto's irresistable dance, followed by a few castings of summon monster vi (celestial polar bears for the grapple and the win!). alternatively, if no pre-buffing is allowed, then those 20 rounds of fascination could be spent, via melodious casting, buffing up the whazoo . . . and then doing the same thing i already suggested. i reiterate, among smart, experienced players, he who wins initiative wins the fight. so, your method must not allow the wizard a single round of action.
Duncs 12-05-06, 05:02 PM	Yes, I agree - as soon as he gets a spell off it may be game over for me. However, the Rod of Absorption may be my saving grace, as most save vs die spells etc are single target, as is disintegrate, his favorite spell. I think that Silence and some way to grapple him could have a degree of success, as could most suggestions here. I don't actually expect he will Mind Blank himself, or buff himself much at all. Looking at my opponent, he seems the type to use all slots in damage spells. He is expecting a quick, 3-5 round fight MAXIMUM. Thus, fascinate and later suggestions could work in one fight. I would like if possible to beat him in a multitude of ways if we play 5 fights or something like that, so he knows that the bard is actually a multi-threat monster ;) Thanks for the suggestions so far. Sleep now awaits... (I will post a build once i have made it)
solbergb 12-05-06, 05:22 PM	from experience - silence+grapple is very potent even against very high level wizards. Most will at best have one contingency for that, and many won't have anything at all, especially if as you say, he's a kind of offense-oriented guy. *WE* know that he absolutely needs contingency-blink to fix up any grapple issues, a ring of counterspells to stop the first round of dispelling, blah blah. But HE may not know that. We also know that silent spell is a good idea, especially things like silent dimension dooors, or greater rods of silence to get off that time stop vs the bard.... But a startling number of high level wizards don't have those things when they need them, and it's even more true of folks doing a one-shot adventure with no experience of actually being threatenened by anti-spellcaster types. And if you're talking a no-buff situation, if you win init, move up and ready to counterspell with silence the first non-quickened spell he casts. That will usually stuff his time-stop right there and then, and mess up his whole game plan. Keep counterspelling with silence until you are close enough to grab him. Then use your 3/4 BAB to beat him down :) You probably have enough silence slots to burn out most of his top tier spells even if you can't close the range. (for mobility, nothing beats the phantom steed, and it's on your list. If you are allowed buffing, start out with one of those)
Zendu 12-05-06, 05:26 PM	Some fun could be had with Leadership and Veil. I think the basis of this fight is rather flawed. Your pitting a support class against a damage class, he holds all the cards. Like others have mentioned, even if you win, you will probably do it by using one of your main abilities ;versitility, by using his own spelllists. You need to decide if you want to fight the duel as it stands (win no matter the method, accepting its a flawed fight) or duel as it SHOULD be (most notably a perform check) accepting you might lose. Also, its silly that you dont even know all the rules(namly the buffs or the geography of the place) I'd strongly suggest 'ling for race, youll need the dex. The free ac and saves cant hurt either. I wish i had more to suggest, but I dont even know where to begin other than you must win init.
Duncs 12-05-06, 05:37 PM	Ok, it seems painfully obvious that Initiative is paramount. To that end, how do i get the most out of it? With 25 Point buy, and a lot going into charisma, My dex will be 14 most likely. 16 at a push, 18 with halfling at a push. So, how else can I boost it? Improved Initiative is good, are there any other ways? Beyond that, I will suggest to him what you guys have suggested about buffing and location differences. The way I see it, the settings should be a few different locales, some with buff rounds some with none, but hours long buffs should be allowed all the time. Time to read my PHB in bed in depth ;)
Zendu 12-05-06, 05:46 PM	i should mention another aspect of geography, starting distance. If the dm drops you in a 100' circle vanillia arena at the same time, you have to spend a round getting to him (either by spells or moving or whatever) Thus insuring his win because he doesnt have to move at all to hit you. Gloves and a book should give you +4(.5). Even pumping it hardcore youd be lucky to get more than 4 ahead of him. Hed be clueless if he doesnt get improved inititive.
Ithamar 12-05-06, 07:17 PM	Well if you know he is likely to play as a human, or you know in advance what race he will choose, buy a whole a lot of Greater Slaying Arrows. With Rapid Shot you can get off 4 shots per round. His Fort save will maybe be +13 or so, which is a 50% chance he'll miss the DC 23 save. Eventually he'll fail. Not really relying on the bard's strengths, but it is a viable tactic.
solbergb 12-05-06, 07:48 PM	stupid initiative boosting tricks. we can't mix in Marshall but... core high dex & gloves+6 and book of dex+5 improved initiative (+4) luck blade with no wishes (reroll one roll/day) complete adventurer Quick Reconnoiter (+2 and free spot/listen check every round) Danger Sense (reroll initiative check) There are also regional/background feats such as "Blooded" in various sourcebooks & Dragon that you take at level 1 which can boost init by +2. Somewhere there is an "Eager" weapon enhancement that boost initiative even if you are just carrying the thing. I think by +2. I don't remember which sourcebook. That's about it that I can think of. If leadership is allowed, a high charisma marshall with motivate dexterity is also a common approach.
X-Codes 12-05-06, 07:59 PM	Focus on blocking his highest spells with Mind Blank, Death Ward, Rods of Absorbtion and a Ring of Evasion. If he uses buffs, dispel them when you get the opportunity. Once he exhausts his top-level spells and you get most of his buffs, cast Mind Fog and use a scroll of Feeblemind.
Empirate 12-05-06, 08:21 PM	You could also make sure the Wiz beats himself with his own spells, by using a ring of spell turning or simply a scroll of spell turning (which you'd have to UMD). Then when he fires his Disintegrate (whose DC will have been pumped...), let him eat it!
Tomada 12-05-06, 08:43 PM	UMD seems to be the popular vote here. Doesn't it seem a bit silly to beat a Wizard with the Wizard's own class abilities? That was a main point of contention in the Wiz 20 vs Fighter 20 thread a while back. A well prepared Wizard shoud sh*tkick your Bard. The Rod of Absorbtion is a cute trick until he casts a Quickened Maximized(via rods?) Timestop and unleashes a few 40 HD celestial gold dragons to beat you into a bloody pulp. The Wizard in the aforementioned contest had something along the lines of: Prismatic Sphere Wall of Stone shaped inside the prismatic sphere (for melee) Wall of iron on the ground (for burrowing) Two Celestial gold dragons with Ring Gates on their heads, the other ends on the wall of iron (for line of sight) 10 rounds of Timestop and the wizard got a one round of buffing, something VERY, REALLY advantageous to him. Will post my suggestions in a moment 1- buy 2x gloves of storing, 1x metamagic rod of extend and 1x rod of absorbition. Start with both rods on hand, (at least the absorbition) if he casts anything, you absorb, if it's your turn and you can get to him otto's irresistable dance is good. 2- If he has mind blank on: cast darkness on him so he can't see you, prepare to dispell from cover, to summon some monsters to grapple him, to something... (what kind of wizard, with so few slots is going to prepare a light spell?) 3- If he has mind blank on: get up and personal (or use ranged weapons) to prepare some smackdown when he tries to cast. Even prepare a trip attempt with a whip if you so desire. 4- If he summons anything: Dominate, fascinate, charm, suggest or BLUFF his summons. You can bluff then to believe YOU actually sumoned then. Or you can just ignore the summons and get to the wizard. You actually have all these ranks in tumble for a reason. 5- if he polymorphs: 5.1- Into something big: Irresistable dance him, dominate him or something similar. 5.2 - into something small: trip/grapple, irresistable dance, dominate or any other thing you want. I think that all I got for now
Roscoe 12-05-06, 09:47 PM	okay. the OP said: 1. hour buffs are fair game. that means mind blank is up. 2. core rulebooks only = only PHB and DMG and MM1!!! with that in mind fascinate is out of the question. why is using UMD not a bard strenght??? to calc up the wizards will save: he has 12 from class... then he has bonus from Wisdom... not necessarily high. then he has magical bonus of +2 (assuming he bothered) this means that his bonus is +14 (though the OP knows the player better and should feel free to discard this if the OP knows that that player will stack up on will saves.) +14 means that he should fail on numerous will saves. (dc 10+ spell lvl + stat mod of main stat of char) the dc for a 1st lvl spell as bard could easily be 21 moded only by stat... with the dc feats up then it gets boosted to 22 for a 1st lvl spell. for a 6th lvl spell that would be dc 27... he fails on a roll of 12 or lower. I say in your first round (assuming you win initiative cause otherwise you are screwed) you should use "shout, greater". Not only 10d6 dam but also 1 round stun and deaf for 4d6 rounds = you get to cast a spell and if he fails the fort save then you get turn again before he does. (don't forget if he is holding vulnerable items that could get damaged) second round if it was succesful then keep doing it. I know it sounds tame but why change what works? after 40d6 of damage the wizard should be toast. (assuming that he fails everything of course. But come on.... the wizzie has a fort save of at best around +12 (assuming a con mod of 4 and magical bonus) if he does succeed on his save then you aren't totally screwed... you simply hope that he doesn't get his spell through or that you can save against it if it is hostile). All in all remember to buff (with hour long buffs) yourself through the use of UMD (fair game imo because UMD is a bard class skill) then go in win initiative you should have a mod of AT LEAST +8 (+4 from improved initiative AND +4 from dex... boost it by magic items if not high enough) just my view In any case you present the case as an unequal battle and you somewhat already acknowledge the truth of the matter that bards vs wizards in 1 on 1 is inferior. Bards are not meant to be alone in combat. They are the very example of party buffers.
fil kearney 12-05-06, 09:55 PM	core only ... silence + grease his shoes (reflex save vs SPELL DC hehe) zone hits him, then if he tries to walk, reflex vs bard's high cha dc or be prone... tries to stand, repeat. then stab him to death with a long spear, or rock to mud-- mud to rock. for the coup de grace have silent spell so you can operate in the silence zone. here's A cheap trick: win initiative, send trained monkeys and/or parrots with silent and/or darkness traps to spring when within range, grapple (or not). take silent spell (and blindfighting if preferred) for the win. load up on harm scrolls, be casual about casting before walking into zone.
Roscoe 12-05-06, 09:58 PM	Oh I forgot something... as a bard your spells have a low count (what I mean is your 3rd lvl spell is more powerfull than the wizzies or you get the spell on lower lvl spell slot) this means that metamagic rods are your very best friend. consider buying a lesser quicken rod and kick in with hold person in every round where the wizzie makes his save against the shout spell. Which means that there should be a fair probability that he fails either the fort save and in effect is stunned loosing the round or he fails the will save which stuns him making him loose his round... In fact just throw hold person each round (on top of the shout). if he fails on multiple hold person's he will have to make multiple will saves to be mobile. The key to winning this fight is to never let the wizzie get his turn. Once he fails a save against the hold person you are golden because he will have to make a will save each round to see if he is held. you could even buy multiple rods of quicken so that you can keep casting that nasty hold person.
Thomas_Covenant 12-05-06, 10:27 PM	Yeesh....you really asked for it here. You're playing against a Wizard's strengths... (high level situation where he KNOWS he's going to go full NOVA) And you're going CORE Bard in one a situation where he is honestly at his worst. (Bard is a Jack of all Trades and Party buffer, duels favor specialization, and this duel is solo....both bad for the Bard) Basicly, max Initiative, prep some UMD tricks, and hope/pray the Wizard Player is a moron. In Core, if the Wizard gets initiative in a Solo, NOVA duel, he should cast Time Stop. He then starts looking at Shapechange, Forcecage, Dimensional Lock, Acid Fog, Cloud Kill, and almost certainly quickened spells in the meantime. Even an unoptimized Wizard 20, if I was running him, if I get one standard action, I'll auto-win in CORE, no contest. Hmm...if for some baffling reason he doesn't have Mind Blank up, Otto's Irrestible Dance should be nearly auto-win, either way max movement as much as possible, you don't want this fight to stay at range. Max Init, Rod of Absorption, Wings of Flying just might work. If again, he's stupid...if he starts off blasting you may win 50%+
Arem_K 12-05-06, 11:15 PM	You're a skillmonkey, use them skills. Remember, you have hide and move silently. He has neither spot nor listen. You should not be that worried about intiative. You have a surprise round. That being said, I am not sure how you can finish this. Candle of invocation might work, but I don't think you can rely on your summon winning the match for you before he kills. Irresistable dance would work, but he almost certainly has mindblank. Basically, you need a non-mind affecting attack which can absolutely kill something in a round.
DarkotheDarkGod 12-05-06, 11:31 PM	Well, Bards get Finger of Death as a 6th level spell, if you boost the DC maybe. If you use steath to get off a surprise round and boost the DC (spell focus, greater spell focus), invest heavy in cha-boosts, etc., and win intiative, you might be able to win. Maybe. He' have a mind blank up, so this is the best thing I could think of.
altpersona 12-06-06, 12:10 AM	core only, so no celery right? (misspelled on purpose). halfling +2 dex, lvl +5 dex, base dex 18 =+7 init +4 imp init = +11 spells that last an hour that add more init. its got to be pretty easy to find... got to be something, or not, not to many in core. rod of alertness +1 init, 85k gp.... manual of quickness of action , 137 kgp. inherent bonus deep red ioune stone, 8kgp +2 enhancment to dex gloves of dex +4 16kgp 760 kgp to spend? templates? or the like? those would reallly help..... buff gasious form, needs extend feat or the like, 2min/lvl is the base duration. buff reduce person, hour per lvl dont know if you can get a tensors transformation that lasts over an hour, base is 1min / lvl, maybe an item? i searched phb and dmg, not mm1... mm1 would be all about the alternate playable races. lvl 1 bard, +19 LA from race and templates. pure bard, oy. init and enfeeble. init and AMF
Hanniball 12-06-06, 01:29 AM	Charisma: 15 base (8 pts) +5 levels +5 Inherent (Tome) +6 Enhancement (Cloak) +3 Age = 34 (+12) Hold a Rod of Absorption and cast Greater Shout out of it every round until he's dead. A Fort save DC 28 should be fairly difficult for him to make reliably and if he fails one of them, he's Stunned for a round and deafened for 4D6 rounds (imposing a 20% spell failure on verbal component spells) If you win initiative, open with an Otto's Irresistable Dance and then blast away. Either way...just my 2 cp
Zendu 12-06-06, 09:38 AM	Tomada, this is somewhat unrelated, but you know that you cant roll bluff against other PC's right? (the page in the dmg escapes me)
Kamikaze Chicken 12-06-06, 09:56 AM	All the suggestions that have staye din the core thus far are very spot on. I think the best bet thus far is the Rod of Absorption+Greater shout combo. If possible you should do your best to make him run out of spells. this is the opne place a bard can win. He is a much better caster than you. but you are much better at skills, and much better inc ombat, and should have almost twice the hit points. Use those strengths. Do what ever it takes to outlast all his offensive spells. Drop his defenses, sneak in, and give him a surprise he won;t be able to handle. Try to have multiple tactics to use. A bard's truest strength lies in his versatility. A core wizard lacks this, and as such i is your one main advantage. Use it, abuse it, love it. KAMIKAZE! :chicken:
WizO_Autumn 12-06-06, 10:11 AM	This may take too much to be worth it- but he'll definitely have rods too. You could try to sunder them or disarm him. He'll still be rocking, but it may be a bit of a hit if he's relying on the rods.
Darhelion 12-06-06, 10:21 AM	I think some people are misunderstanding my comments about UMD/magic item tricks. By all means, take advantage of your UMD skill; it's on your class list, and you are a skill monkey. Just don't rely exclusively on it. Doing so pits faux wizard against wizard. Remember, too, that UMD can let you use divine items and evil items and other normally-restricted things. Relying on UMD alone, though, would be foolish when you are a jack of all trades. The comment about not beating him with pure magic item choices is simply an attempt to ensure you're proving a BARD can beat a WIZARD, and not that YOU can beat HIS WIZARD with a commoner who spends money wisely. (A candle of invocation is a very cheap Gate spell, for example, but the aforementioned commoner could use it as easilly as your bard. So such tricks, while valid, should not be the sum total of your repretoir.) Greater Shout's a good idea, but you want to ensure range won't be an issue. One place where UMDing to beat a wizard at his own game would be to pick up a scroll or staff of Time Stop to UMD. Now, winning init gives you as much advantage as it would give him. Interesting divine buffs might include the standard Clericzilla suite (Divine Might, Divine Favor, etc.) in scroll form. If you want to be more than a little silly (and feel you've a prime opportunity to go melee on him in a brutal fashion), pick up a Druid's Vestment to UMD. If your DM allows this interpretation, you can UMD to trick it into thinking you have the Wild Shape ability, and it will then give you 1 more per day than normal (0+1 = 1). Since you can almost certainly UMD for at least an 8th level druid, large size should be no problem. Dire Bears are brutal in melee. (Or just pick up a wand of polymorph; probably cheaper and more effective, since you don't care about expending limited-shot items in a duel.) You've got quite the challenge; don't limit yourself. Just remember that you're a bard, and play to what strengths you can. If you can't have cohorts, perhaps summoning in some allies may help. ...oh, wait. Here's a trick (though your foe may cry foul)... If you can't bring your cohort and followers in at the get-go, can you summon them in magically? A bracelet of friends with well-chosen minions tied to it could be cool. Find ways to use your buffing abilities. Hide and move silently from you wizardish foe. If it's a true arena, go ahead and find some core spells that create cover, illusory or (preferably) real, so you can hide from a true-seeing mage. Because you are so much stronger with allies, you may even consider attempting to get Handle Animal and buy some pets.
FeceMan 12-06-06, 10:56 AM	Learn his race and alignment and get some bane/alignmed weaponry. Use your music to make yourself ultra strong. Unfortunately, the bard is not a powerful class on its own. However, when you've a group of characters whom you can give a +4 (or higher) morale bonus on their attacks...well... lol pwned And stuff.
Duncs 12-06-06, 11:31 AM	Ok, been talking to him today, and He was saying he might be doing Time Stop + Summon Monster IX, Summon Monster VIII etc etc. May be a bluff, but If this happens - what can I do? Thanks for the further suggestions - build coming sometime relatively soon I hope ;)
rilem 12-06-06, 12:13 PM	Ok, been talking to him today, and He was saying he might be doing Time Stop + Summon Monster IX, Summon Monster VIII Summon Monster IX? He has to be kidding. If he's that dense, you may have a shot.
solbergb 12-06-06, 12:42 PM	As a side note. He can't hurt you with targeted spells if he can't see you. Loeomund's hut is hour/level and defeats even true seeing. Furthermore unless he guesses right which square you are in, he can't hurt you with rays either. Area spells, yeah, those can still sting. Make sure you have dim door and freedom of momement on your spell list. They help you cope with all the grapple spells and the forcecage trick. prot evil will keep you save from most things he can summon and make you immune to dominate type tricks. Use UMD or, since hour/level stuff is allowed, consider a horn of evil/good. DO assume he'll have overland flight running and will never be anywhere near the ground. (ie, make no plans based on grease, or anything else that implies a "surface")
Bonzai 12-06-06, 01:02 PM	To bad it's core only. Otherwise, winning initiative, casting silence, and then using arcane strile could have been an option. As for him waisting his Time Stop with summon monster.... hey your a friggin bard, Mass Charm Monster. Turn them against him. Heh, again if it wasn't core, and I was a wizard, I would have cast Time Stop (with a rod of maximize spell), delayed avasculate, delayed avasculate, Delay blast fireball ( or some other nasty spell), a nice buff, and a short range teleport. Time stop ends, and the opponent has his hp halved twice (no save), and then boom! If you some how live, I am buffed, and not where you thought I was. Best advice I can give is to max out spell resistance, get some spell turning items, and see if you can max out the DC for your silence spell.
Duncs 12-06-06, 01:11 PM	Best advice I can give is to max out spell resistance, get some spell turning items, and see if you can max out the DC for your silence spell. Good advice - but how? Any core-only ways to get decent SR and some good spell turning? Summon Monster IX? He has to be kidding. If he's that dense, you may have a shot. Yes, I fear you may be somewhat overestimating his preparation and ability to optimise. In all seriousness, I do not expect Mind Blank, or indeed most of the things you guys have suggested he might do. However, always good to over-prepare ;) I am expecting a lot of disintegrates, quickened fireballs, power word: kills and the like. Thats more his game.
FeceMan 12-06-06, 01:54 PM	I am expecting a lot of disintegrates, quickened fireballs, power word: kills and the like. Thats more his game. A blaster, eh? You've more HP than him. Use it against him. Make sure to boost your CON score and reflex saves, not to mention your touch AC. I'd suggest a ring of evasion and a ring of spell turning. Maybe two rings of spell turning, even--if you can afford it. Think about a ring of deflection for when the spell turning is used up. Put elemental resistances on your armor. I can't stress enough trying to see if you can use fascinate on him. It seems as though, by RAW, it will work, but check with your DM in advance (or whomever is overseeing this fight).
Darhelion 12-06-06, 06:24 PM	Be very careful; I think charming/bluffing summons won't do much good. The summon spell itself gives the caster control of his summoned critters; they're magically compelled to obey him. You -might- successfully dominate them, if you've got the spell for it, but I think you'd need to beat the wizard out on a CL check to get control that way. The big weakness of summon monster spells against you (a fellow full caster) is that they're tremendously vulnerable to Greater Dispell Magic.
Hanniball 12-06-06, 07:41 PM	Ok, been talking to him today, and He was saying he might be doing Time Stop + Summon Monster IX, Summon Monster VIII etc etc. May be a bluff, but If this happens - what can I do? Cast Mislead. Just because the Wizard has True Seeing doesn't mean his summons do to. Alternatively, use Song of Discord and move out of the area to keep them busy and possibly turn them on the Wizard. DO assume he'll have overland flight running and will never be anywhere near the ground. Agreed. Since hour/level spells are allowed, enter the battle with Phantom Steed cast. This will allow you to combat him normally should he choose to make it an aerial battle. Good advice - but how? Any core-only ways to get decent SR and some good spell turning? I disagree that this is good advice. The Mantle of Spell Resistance is only SR 21, so he simply cannot fail his caster level check and there are very few other Core-only ways of getting any SR at all. A ring of Spell Turning would be a great idea if it didn't require you to spend a standard action activating it. Without access to Quicken spell, you'll need every action you can get to wear away his HP and Dispel his buffs. I'd spend the majority of your wealth on saving throw boosting items and a ring of evasion (as others have mentioned). If he drops your HP to a dangerous level, Dimension Door as far away as possible and Cure yourself. He will likely spend his round(s) re-buffing, but his hit point total will remain the same without access to curative magics. Your best bet is a cat-and-mouse game with Greater Shout for the win.
Darhelion 12-06-06, 07:57 PM	Also, if you've room, pick up Improved Counterspell and have a selection of spells of each level from as many schools as possible, with a maxed Spellcraft. Greater Dispell Magic for spells 7th level or higher. Keep a Rod of Abosorption (or two) around. Spellcraft to ID every spell you observe him casting. If he's targetting you, let the Rod absorb it. If he's casting something it can't absorb, counterspell (with a spell of the appropriate school if possible; with GDispell - riskier but doable, as long as he's not raised his CL to much beyond 20 - if not). His spells targetting you can fuel your spellcasting and counterspelling attempts. Keeping him from casting anything until you've worn him down reduces it to at worst (for you) a physical-on-physical battle. As a bard, you win v. a wizard at this. How much you want to devote to this tactic vs. others presented is a balancing act; keep an eye on your gp reserves and spells known/feat slots. Have a solid (peferably not too requirement-intensive) fighter-like ability to fight (i.e. be competant with a weapon and maybe have one mean trick with it). Greater Shout's a nice offensive spell - abuse it if it works. Oh! And if you're UMDing ANYTHING, make sure you have UMD'd a scroll of Mind Blank. Don't discount that he -could- have hold person or dominate monster prepped and just fling it at you on the off chance you're unprepared for it.
Gyrofthewastes 12-06-06, 08:07 PM	Couple Issues: * Sadly, spell turning is all but useless in 3.5; for some reason wholly unbeknownst to sanity the game writers decided that it would be a good idea to exclude touch spells and effect spells from working with it. Area spells never were reflected. What this means: Ray spells are not turned. In fact, VERY few spells are actually turned. * Immediate Actions cannot be used while flat-footed. Celerity (and greater) are decent spells...but they WILL not substitute for winning initiative. * Mind Blank protects against mind-affecting spells and effects. That includes both Fascinate and Otto's Irresistable Dance.
altpersona 12-06-06, 08:34 PM	once init is out of the way, a fight is a fight. the whole of the thing is init. you have to win init, you have to destroy or disable him before his first action. he has more options than you do. if not gate, then summon, or tensor or timestop or any host of nasty things.... once he gets his first action, i cant think of a good reason why you should get any opportunity to get a second usefull action. i would also consider, declaring before the init that you ready for counterspell or the like, and you might get to cheat his first casting.
ChristopherGroves 12-06-06, 08:37 PM	Celerity isn't core, so that's a non-issue.
Gyrofthewastes 12-06-06, 09:12 PM	Core only means no quickened spells for the Bard. Ugh.
Hanniball 12-06-06, 09:33 PM	i would also consider, declaring before the init that you ready for counterspell or the like, and you might get to cheat his first casting. You would, indeed, be cheating as you cannot ready an action outside of combat. once he gets his first action, i cant think of a good reason why you should get any opportunity to get a second usefull action. If he is prepared for the initial barrage, he should survive long enough to get an action. Entering the battle with a Contingency active (via a purchased scroll) should be enough to prevent a first turn kill. the whole of the thing is init. you have to win init, you have to destroy or disable him before his first action. I disagree. Once True Seeing is removed (Greater Dispelling) the Bard can easily confuse the Wizard through a host of various illusions and prolong the encounter as long as necessary until he is able to deliver the killing blow.
Surreal 12-06-06, 09:51 PM	Bah, who needs all these high level spell shenanigans. Rage is a level 2 bard spell with no save. Point and laugh as your opponent shakes his staff at you in violent spell-less impotence.
Vorlir 12-06-06, 09:57 PM	and the Wizard's mind blank will protect against that
Surreal 12-06-06, 10:06 PM	and the Wizard's mind blank will protect against that The OP has already stated several times that he does not expect Mind Blank. The only universal piece of advice given so far is to win initiative. I'd go so far as to value Dex over Cha. You shouldn't be relying on anything that allows a save anyways, so really you could start with Cha 11 and still be able to cast your 6th level spells by the end.
Tomada 12-06-06, 10:24 PM	Oh I forgot something... as a bard your spells have a low count (what I mean is your 3rd lvl spell is more powerfull than the wizzies or you get the spell on lower lvl spell slot) this means that metamagic rods are your very best friend. consider buying a lesser quicken rod and kick in with hold person in every round where the wizzie makes his save against the shout spell. Which means that there should be a fair probability that he fails either the fort save and in effect is stunned loosing the round or he fails the will save which stuns him making him loose his round... In fact just throw hold person each round (on top of the shout). if he fails on multiple hold person's he will have to make multiple will saves to be mobile. The key to winning this fight is to never let the wizzie get his turn. Once he fails a save against the hold person you are golden because he will have to make a will save each round to see if he is held. you could even buy multiple rods of quicken so that you can keep casting that nasty hold person. Spontaneous caster... no quiken for you! Well, Bards get Finger of Death as a 6th level spell, if you boost the DC maybe. If you use steath to get off a surprise round and boost the DC (spell focus, greater spell focus), invest heavy in cha-boosts, etc., and win intiative, you might be able to win. Maybe. He' have a mind blank up, so this is the best thing I could think of. Finger of death on bards spell? Wasn't it on 3.0? Tomada, this is somewhat unrelated, but you know that you cant roll bluff against other PC's right? (the page in the dmg escapes me) That's why I said to bluff their summoned monsters! Then again, as I said before, ALWAYS use gloves of storing for quick retrieval, of rods. ALWAYS use a SCARAB OF PROTECTION (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scarabofProtection) it works like a charm, you know. Use the spell mislead, close to him and prepare an action to hit him when he tries to cast a spell, the forced concentration check may be very high, or just trip him using a whip(previously stored in glove of storage, so you could cast your spell before.). Of course, use a boots of haste, so you can have an extra attack after you use your full roung casting + moving. Or you can do the above trick with a scroll of time stop, wich would give you time to great heroism yourself, and blur, blink, mirror image, whatever you like. Freedom of movement may be an idea, as well. OR you can WIDEN a silence spell ON HIS SQUARE no save, no SR, no nothing, unless he gets out of the spell range, wich shouldn't be in the first round, since he probably can't walk 40ft in a round. That gives you time to close in on him if he is far alway. Even better, you can do it again until your bored! Or runs out of 5th level spell slots, but that's another issue.
Arem_K 12-06-06, 11:27 PM	If he does not have mind blank, you should be able to win with just irresistable dance and sneaking. Bump up your hide and move silently to max and maybe carry some items that enhance them. He should not be able to find you. Then just walk up and hit him with the dance. If you maximize it with a rod, you get five turns to kill him. Do whatever you want, but a candle of invocation is probably the easiest way.
Lord_Panda 12-06-06, 11:36 PM	Though there are so many things that a wizard can do to screw over a bard that you can't prepare for them all, it looks as though you just have to worry about Timestop/summons or blasting spells. I'd consider using song of discord to turn his summons against him. Also, unless he gates in a Solar, his minions are unlikely to have True Seeing, so the greater invisibility/mislead route is even better. Using the Rod of Absorption, Ring of Evasion, and Scarab of Protection, combined with the 22+ reflex save that you should have will make you all but immune to anything he can do directly to you. The one thing that you don't have covered is Horrid Wilting. It's multiple-target, so it bypasses the rod, there's only so much that you can do for Fort (though I might consider burning a feat on Great Fortitude, given that there aren't so many useful core feats), and sounds as though it's exactly the sort of spell that your friend will use. If you want to open with an Otto's Irresitible Dance, grapple, or a spell with close range, you might want to begin combat with a Phantom Steed (lasts 1 hr/level and moves at 240 ft/rd) to get up to him. If the battle isn't going to be decided in one round, I'd start by running away. Once you're out of the 120 ft sight range of True Seeing, you can turn invisible and buff up as much as you want. Since he can get in all the buffs he wants with Time Stop, you might as well get some for yourself. You could UMD a scroll of shapechange, and then sneak back using hide and move silently. Turn into a giant during the surprise round for a melee approach, or be a Choker with quickness for two spells. In particular, a UMDed Disjunction scroll or Greater Dispel to get rid of buffs, followed by Irresistible Dance, Greater Shout, or some other disabling spell should let you finish him with little trouble.
Tomada 12-06-06, 11:41 PM	you CAN contingency(scroll) a mislead or a project image with the condition that he appears near you. If project image is the choice, then contingency it to be cast near him and immeaditelly deliver some good touch spells to him. Actually, you can contigency a lot of things. Zone of silence can be of use to hamper him if he tries to identify your spells. Heroes feast before hand is useful as well.
Tomada 12-06-06, 11:54 PM	Though there are so many things that a wizard can do to screw over a bard that you can't prepare for them all, it looks as though you just have to worry about Timestop/summons or blasting spells. I'd consider using song of discord to turn his summons against him. Also, unless he gates in a Solar, his minions are unlikely to have True Seeing, so the greater invisibility/mislead route is even better. Using the Rod of Absorption, Ring of Evasion, and Scarab of Protection, combined with the 22+ reflex save that you should have will make you all but immune to anything he can do directly to you. The one thing that you don't have covered is Horrid Wilting. It's multiple-target, so it bypasses the rod, there's only so much that you can do for Fort (though I might consider burning a feat on Great Fortitude, given that there aren't so many useful core feats), and sounds as though it's exactly the sort of spell that your friend will use. If you want to open with an Otto's Irresitible Dance, grapple, or a spell with close range, you might want to begin combat with a Phantom Steed (lasts 1 hr/level and moves at 240 ft/rd) to get up to him. If the battle isn't going to be decided in one round, I'd start by running away. Once you're out of the 120 ft sight range of True Seeing, you can turn invisible and buff up as much as you want. Since he can get in all the buffs he wants with Time Stop, you might as well get some for yourself. You could UMD a scroll of shapechange, and build a strategy around a beholder's antimagic, or just find some powerful form for melee. If there's enough cover, sneak back using hide and move silently. And you CAN cast from horse back making a concentration check. wich could make you able to reach him with a touch spell from the first round.
starrius 12-07-06, 05:44 PM	one thing to consider/ he may not put a lot in to str why not get a high lvl wand of ray of enfeeblement just my 2cp worth
Tomada 12-07-06, 06:48 PM	one thing to consider/ he may not put a lot in to str why not get a high lvl wand of ray of enfeeblement just my 2cp worth can someone cast spells while in heavy load?
fil kearney 12-07-06, 07:52 PM	no rules for heavy weight giving a spell failure chance in core.. I don't think in any other book either.
Tomada 12-07-06, 07:58 PM	no rules for heavy weight giving a spell failure chance in core.. I don't think in any other book either. So no point in reducing a wizards strenght?
Arem_K 12-07-06, 09:44 PM	So no point in reducing a wizards strenght? Well, if you get it down to zero they can't move.
FeceMan 12-07-06, 09:46 PM	Well, if you get it down to zero they can't move. And thus no somatics.
Thomas_Covenant 12-07-06, 10:20 PM	And thus no somatics.No Verbal or Material components either, at 0 Str. (One of the MANY reasons I love Silent Teleport as a failsafe...) Note Ray of Enfeeblement alone only drops effective Str to 1. The difference between 1 Str, and 8 Str for a 20th level Wizard in a duel is quite probably none at all. Basicly, I still see this as pitting a high-level Wizard's strengths directly against a high-level Bard's weaknesses. You're looking at standard dueling tactics: Max Init, disrupt him, use UMD to pull uber-powered tricks.
Tomada 12-09-06, 07:57 AM	Well, this seems to be another thread that we help make a duel, and the person simply goes missing...
Duncs 12-09-06, 08:47 AM	Sorry, I have not gone missing, but have had things happening that somewhat take precedence. Thanks again for all the help. Probably most lines of enquiry have been exhausted, so i will be building my character soon and probably be having the duel soon too. I'll let you know how it goes.
Griff 12-09-06, 12:46 PM	*cough* ring of spell turning *cough* reflecting buckler +1
Endarire 12-13-06, 09:48 PM	Did you win? (|=^) -EE
FriendlyBiscuit 12-17-06, 05:32 AM	Wheem!
boffer 12-17-06, 08:25 AM	This may take too much to be worth it- but he'll definitely have rods too. You could try to sunder them or disarm him. He'll still be rocking, but it may be a bit of a hit if he's relying on the rods. Actually, I agree with Autumn here, as he probably is'nt prepared at the bard is charging in with a whip and disarming his spell component bag... and as whip is a reach weapon, there is no need to worry about AoO and the like... And you will have a better attack bonus...
Thomas_Covenant 12-17-06, 12:00 PM	Actually, I agree with Autumn here, as he probably is'nt prepared at the bard is charging in with a whip and disarming his spell component bag... and as whip is a reach weapon, there is no need to worry about AoO and the like... And you will have a better attack bonus...I wouldn't want to do that..... If you do nix his only component bag, he'll likely cast defensively, and look through his spells for those without material components. Time Stop is (V) only, and should be a guaranteed win, if he gets it off. I'm still seeing max init, and "hope the Wizard is a moron" as battle strategy.
Votan 12-17-06, 12:03 PM	The OP has already stated several times that he does not expect Mind Blank. Fair, but in such a case we are seeing a poorly played wizard not any evidence of wizard vs. bard. Eventually, a high-level wizard player will notice this spell (which can be up 24/7) and realize that it removes most of the Bard's best tactics. Then you have greater shout (a great tactic) but you really need to have 2 or 3 good tactics because you can do some amazing things with contingency if you are fighting a bard and he only has one strong opening mvoe.
PhaedrusXY 12-17-06, 05:02 PM	Your wizard friend sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing. You have plenty of options to kill him with. Surviving is the trick. A Ring of Spell Turning + Ring of Evasion should allow you to avoid most of what he's likely to throw at you. Protection from Elements (cast once for each element) will take care of any elemental damage that does get through. Magic Circle vs. Evil will prevent any summoned creatures from even approaching you. Obscuring Mist + the Hide skill cannot be seen through with True Seeing.
Endarire 12-18-06, 05:36 AM	Protection from elements doesn't stack. Casting it multiple times, even if each time has a different element, only provides protection from the most recently chosen element. -EE
kubelick 12-19-06, 11:02 AM	rage asks for a willing target. methinks, the wiz will not be so willing, unless ofcourse first fascinated.since its not a harmful spell, the fascinate will hold.
PhaedrusXY 12-19-06, 02:49 PM	Protection from elements doesn't stack. Casting it multiple times, even if each time has a different element, only provides protection from the most recently chosen element. -EEGot a source for that? I understand your reasoning using the "multiple magical effects" stacking rules, but I'm not sure that I agree with it.
Tomada 12-19-06, 03:13 PM	Got a source for that? I understand your reasoning using the "multiple magical effects" stacking rules, but I'm not sure that I agree with it. I think they stack. There are even magical ways to protect your armor from various elements at the same time. And why don't we let this thing here die? We will never hear from the topic starter again, we will never know if this battle took place and if it did, who won and such... Just deal with it. About 99% of threads like these just dies and no one never knows about the author. And I get so ****** about those things that I would ban the author of threads like this one if they didn't show up to say what happened after, if I could ban anyone... (just be glad I can't)
ravenkith 12-19-06, 03:31 PM	Bard vs. Wizard, with buffing? That's a recipe for a dead bard, IMHO. Especially since the wiz gets time stop. <sigh>. He's going to be ready for invisibility: at the very least, he'll probably have a true seeing prepped once or twice. But he might not be ready for silence. It's easy enough to overlook, after all. One option is to close and cast it on the wizard proper, but the other option is to cast silence on an object you are holding. The problem with this is that you cannot then cast spells yourself, or use your magic items, as long as you are holding the object. Of course, the third option is to cast it on an arrow or bolt, and then shoot the wizard with it. Theoretically it'd stick in him, and then he'd have to waste a round pulling it out., and moving away from it. Not a great tactic, but depending on how far apart you start, it could be a vitally important one, given the short range on the silence spell. Personally, a rod of absorption seems your best bet for dealing with his most damaging offensive spells. But don't forget that he'll probably have summoning spells as well...and area of effects could be problemetic. It might be a better idea to blow some of that big money on getting an item that wraps you in a permanent anti-magic field, and arming up with a bow or something: the theory being that in a straight melee fight, no magic allowed, the bard should win, based on his higher HD and ability to wear light armor, as well as use slightly better weapons. Any way you slice it, you've bought yourself an uphill battle of epic proportions: outside of social situations, Bards pretty much suck. Of course, they're very impressive in social situations - the only thing that would make anyone want to play them, IMO - but in combat, pretty much any other class can beat the snot out of them. Including the fighter. There are exceptions to these rules, but these usually involve prestige classes and feats from expansions - something you don't have.
Mc_Bane 12-19-06, 03:39 PM	And why don't we let this thing here die? We will never hear from the topic starter again, we will never know if this battle took place and if it did, who won and such... Just deal with it. About 99% of threads like these just dies and no one never knows about the author. And I get so ****** about those things that I would ban the author of threads like this one if they didn't show up to say what happened after, if I could ban anyone... (just be glad I can't) I think that that is a little harsh. Organising DnD round here is difficult at best, and so we only did it today. I shall let him recount it as he is bound to be along in a second as is far more articulate than I, occasionally.... EDIT for spelling, probably proving my point
Duncs 12-19-06, 03:40 PM	Sorry for the very long delay, chaps and chapesses. Been busy, what what. Anyways, did the duels earlier today, and I bring you the results. 4 rounds played, 1 drawn, 1 lost, 2 won - an overall win for the bard. Huzzah! This is not perfectly fair - without the rod of absorption I would have been toast. However, still a good showing I felt. Here is what happened: Bard Setup:- Stats:- Str: 8 Dex: 16 (10) +4 (book) +6 (gloves) Con: 13 (5) Int: 8 Wis: 8 Cha: 16 (10) +5 (book) +5 (levels) Items:- Luck Blade (22,060) Manual of Dex (137,500) Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000) Rod of Absorption (50,000) Rod of Cancellation x3 (33,000) Ring of Evasion (25,000) Book of Cha +5 (137,000) Eyes of Petrification (98,000) Scarab of Protection (38,000) +5 Padded Armour of Greater Fire Resistance (91,000) Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000) Winged Boots (16,000) Ring of Protection +5 (50,000) Full bondage kit (chains, manacles, blindfold, ball-gag, etc) In retrospect, the ring of spell turning would have been far more useful than the armour, and the armour was limiting my dex by one. Oops! However, all in all it worked well enough. Round 1 First round started with me losing initiative even with a reroll. Wizard cast Meteor Shower, with each ball targetted directly at me, Rod of Absorption protected me. Power word: Kill quickened was also cast, and absorbed by the Scarab of Protection (or the Rod, it never ran out either way). In my round, cast greater shout which was counterspelled from a ring. Evards black tentacles cast on me. Couldn't escape, no matter what I did (didnt remember Dimension Door :(). Maximised Cloudkill finished me off, just. Round 2 I lost initiative again, decided not to use my reroll this time. Wizard cast Time Stop, then force cage (barred), gate (solar) next to me, and Prismatic Sphere on himself. I began singing, and thankfully beat the Solar, so it sat itself down. Wizard stepped out to see what was going wrong (prismatic sphere was a bad idea), failed his will save and was fascinated too. After a few saves, he loses to Suggestion and dismisses all his current spells. Next suggestion he allows me to tie him up in bondage gear and removes his equips (kinky). Standing over him, a few coup de grace attempts later, and he's dead. Round 3 This took place in a bar, whereas the other two were in an arena. I won initiative, decided not to sing straight away, and move forward, readying to Greater Dispell his next non-targetted at me spell. Mind blank managed to be cast despite my dispell attempt and reroll (thanks again Luck Blade). Forgetting this (I am an idiot), I try singing, and he is immune. He decides to Power Word: Stun me, and fails (Rod to the rescue!). I use a full attack action to disarm him of his amulet and cloak, and then attempt to trip him, but fail the trip attempt. However, I have taken his Con bonus amulet and his cloak of resistance (I assumed). He Evards me, and then Gates in a Solar. I manage to break free (lucky 20), and dive behind a table. Solar comes over and shoots me, I survive and succeed the Fort save (even though i have a Scarab). Using the Eyes of Petrification as I had been before, but with his recently lowered Fortitude save, he is Petrified. He claims a draw if he can kill me with the Solar (who was tasked to kill me in 20 rounds). I Otto's Irresistable Dance the Solar, which doesnt get through his SR. Shot 3 times again, but surviving, I try again and break his SR. He is now dancing for 2 rounds, and I take my leave by running outside, hiding, and then Dimension Dooring 1200 feet away. The escape is mine, and wizard is effectively dead (defeated). Bard 2, Wizard 1. Round 4 A forest, this time. A lot happened - I teleported into the woods and hid, he polymorphed into a dragon and did strafing runs. A good greater dispell sent him falling, but he had feather fall. A second polymorph is dispelled, along with his Mind Blank. Using fly, he returns to ground. There is a bit of a stand off, me hiding and him searching. Eventually, using Mislead, I send an illusion dropping to the floor and scampering away from him. He follows and uses Bigby's Grasping Hand, only to find that it's an illusion. My first Otto's dance is counterspelled by a ring, but my second the next round is not. I am proud of this tactic ;) However, during the dancing I find no way to kill him - I try a couple of greater shouts, and the like. eventually I decide to sing and finish it like Round 2, but he manages to succeed with a lucky natural 20. He declares it a stand-off, hiding in Anti-Magic field, and I agree. We call it a draw. So yes. Thanks for all the help with the preparation for this fight, guys. Probably not brilliant, we are not great players, but fun. And now he knows the power of Fascinate - as do I. It is truly insane. Hope you enjoyed the report Duncs :D EDIT: Mc_Bane, if there are any disparities let me know. This is what happened to the best of my power of recoolection. Also, I am sure we missed some huge important rule like you cant use song against a Solar or something horrendous like that. If so, let us know, but please try not to flame our little minds ;) EDIT2: Proved you wrong, Tomada ;)
kubelick 12-19-06, 03:47 PM	........... Any way you slice it, you've bought yourself an uphill battle of epic proportions: outside of social situations, Bards pretty much suck. Of course, they're very impressive in social situations - the only thing that would make anyone want to play them, IMO - but in combat, pretty much any other class can beat the snot out of them. Including the fighter. ..... i don't agree with that at all. as a matter of fact, i have been given the asignment to record the extra damage over the course of one evening dealt due to my bard's singing. will post statistics. but it's not like i sleep at the game table, because the bard is decoration. i think a pc is as good as you play it. the talent of the bard is that he can stuff any whole. i don't know how many times in the course of the 2 1/2 years the cleric's and wizard's head turned to me pleading for an array for dispell magic. the bards just have that many more aceses up their sleaves then the rest. that's one tactic to use: just wear the wizard out, because the bard will have one more trick in the hat. (can't think of one right at this moment, cept ofcourse for greasing the spell component pouch, very elegant, or puting silence on it. he cant really get rid of it, or walk away from it. he can ofcourse try and dispell it. which brings another idea, silencing some great magic item on him, which he will need to eject or dispell.)
monkey3 12-19-06, 04:05 PM	I think it is unrealistic to say that 20+ hour buff spells are not allowed. Sure, you can make the rules what you want, but how often will a situation come up where you are allowed 1 hour in the morning to memorize spells, but you are not allowed the next minute to cast 10 (1 round each) buffs that last you the rest of the day.
Duncs 12-19-06, 04:07 PM	I think it is unrealistic to say that 20+ hour buff spells are not allowed. Sure, you can make the rules what you want, but how often will a situation come up where you are allowed 1 hour in the morning to memorize spells, but you are not allowed the next minute to cast 10 (1 round each) buffs that last you the rest of the day. Mc_Bane (the Wizard player)'s ruling, not mine. I just went with it, (and was very happy).
solbergb 12-19-06, 04:56 PM	The most likely scenario is wizzie exited some situation where his longer running buffs were dispelled before Bard showed up. Actually, although both chars were fumbling around a little (understandable, nobody runs a high level char that you write up from scratch very well, compared to one that was played from level 1) it showed some of what both classes are good at. Wizzie dies without mind blank, and will pay a price if the bard gets close. Bard has to cope with battlefield control spells and summoned critters (those evards....dude...ring of freedom of movement. Essential equipment to challenge a wizzie) Direct damage didn't kill either one. It was all about who could stick the save/xxx effect first.
Mc_Bane 12-19-06, 05:10 PM	Mc Bane was extremely sad when he hears that his 5 superb strategies were rendered null and void, along with almost the totality of his prepared spells, due to that damn rod of absorb spells or whatever it is. His tactics were roughly: 1. Maximised Meteor swarm followed by quickend power word kill. Thought would be lots of damage no save followed by death no save. 2. Forcecage + Quickened gate. Debated antimagic, thought Solar might go beserk, wished silence was on my spell list. 3. Evards/Bigby's groping or whatever + Quickened Max disintegrate ( Prepared Maxed ahead of time) or finger of death 4. Maximised Energy Drain followed by Quickened energy drain, neg levels mean few harsh spells and abomnible Saves 5. Can't remember As you can see, these were all bar one rendered nulll and void through equipment choice, curses. Right, excuses time (I always make pathetic excuses, makes me feel better) Built this guy in the 25 mins before the fight, some of which was standard DnD playtime. Have never played a campaign above 15th level, only played one wizard ever, who cast about 5 spells and was level 3, and have never played a bard, sorta assumed I knew what they do. Probably my fault for not checking. I hate Fascinate, well done D
Duncs 12-19-06, 07:26 PM	Fascinate's a killer. I tried to stay away and vary my tactic, but in the end it always came back to that ;)
Tomada 12-19-06, 09:53 PM	SNIP EDIT2: Proved you wrong, Tomada ;) THANK YOU VERY MUCH for proving me wrong. nice matches, I think. hum... And you should be preperad to get to him while he was dancing, those penalties for AC and reflexes are very nice. A wand of something nasty with reflexes saves would be good. A scroll or two should suffice as well. Will review in more detail and EDIT this post later Some reviews: You should probably use a robe of the archmagi and some comom clothes with magical properties (ie. the fire resistance you already put). With the robe of archmagi, a cloak of charisma instead of the book, a orange ioun stone with spell penetration and greater spell penetration feats you should have a +7 to SR checks, wich is very good. And... could you put your feats and other characteristics of your character here?
Tomada 12-19-06, 10:06 PM	Mc Bane was extremely sad when he hears that his 5 superb strategies were rendered null and void, along with almost the totality of his prepared spells, due to that damn rod of absorb spells or whatever it is. His tactics were roughly: 1. Maximised Meteor swarm followed by quickend power word kill. Thought would be lots of damage no save followed by death no save. 2. Forcecage + Quickened gate. Debated antimagic, thought Solar might go beserk, wished silence was on my spell list. 3. Evards/Bigby's groping or whatever + Quickened Max disintegrate ( Prepared Maxed ahead of time) or finger of death 4. Maximised Energy Drain followed by Quickened energy drain, neg levels mean few harsh spells and abomnible Saves 5. Can't remember As you can see, these were all bar one rendered nulll and void through equipment choice, curses. Right, excuses time (I always make pathetic excuses, makes me feel better) Built this guy in the 25 mins before the fight, some of which was standard DnD playtime. Have never played a campaign above 15th level, only played one wizard ever, who cast about 5 spells and was level 3, and have never played a bard, sorta assumed I knew what they do. Probably my fault for not checking. I hate Fascinate, well done D You can search the forum (search in google in the domain boards1.wizards.com) for a thread that clashed a wizard versus a fighter, there you will find a lot of optmization for said wizard, much would be useful against a bard. If you do this and try a rematch I would like to see the results. Wich will very well vary, too.
Duncs 12-20-06, 08:41 AM	A rematch is certainly out of the question - I barely managed to trick my way out of it this time. If he knows to prepare Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Time Stop + Mind Blank, what am I to do? ;) Featwise, I had Improved Initiative. Didn't bother with other feats, was too rushed and really there are few good feats in Core. Spell Focus and GSF would have been good, in hindsight, but beyond that. As there is no way to get a decent SR in Core (afaik), penetration is worthless.
ravenkith 12-20-06, 08:58 AM	Spell Resistance[/B]] Abjuration Level: Clr 5, Magic 5, Protection 5 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The creature gains spell resistance equal to 12 + your caster level. This'll get the job done, methinks. Oh, and a wizard knowing he's going up against a bard should have killed you dead, every single time. It's pretty clear the other guy just didn't do his homework, he even admits as much. If you really want to test out the mettle of the classes, you should run them seperately against specific encounters.
Tomada 12-20-06, 09:25 AM	A rematch is certainly out of the question - I barely managed to trick my way out of it this time. If he knows to prepare Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Time Stop + Mind Blank, what am I to do? ;) Featwise, I had Improved Initiative. Didn't bother with other feats, was too rushed and really there are few good feats in Core. Spell Focus and GSF would have been good, in hindsight, but beyond that. As there is no way to get a decent SR in Core (afaik), penetration is worthless. Nah, the could still outsmart him... he may be mind blanked, but are their summons as well? If he isn't, he is screwed. A scroll of time stop or even a mordenkainen's disjunction one are fairly inexpensice and should be on your shopping list, anyway. My bard in an actual game always have those, just in case. (and saved everyone's butt more times than the sorcerer said 'fireball') you even have the advantage of buffing with clerical and druidic buffs through use magic device! you should have used this advantages as well. The wiz may not have been played to the fullest, but the bard wasn't as well
Duncs 12-20-06, 04:51 PM	If he isn't, he is screwed. A scroll of time stop or even a mordenkainen's disjunction one are fairly inexpensice and should be on your shopping list, anyway. My bard in an actual game always have those, just in case. (and saved everyone's butt more times than the sorcerer said 'fireball') you even have the advantage of buffing with clerical and druidic buffs through use magic device! you should have used this advantages as well. The wiz may not have been played to the fullest, but the bard wasn't as well Very true, and I wholeheartedly agree that the bard's abilities lie in his versitility and aptitude with scrolls and the like. However, seeing as just one magic item annoyed Mc_Bane no end, I think that he would have claimed an unfair fight if i packed a boatload of scrolls. It did, however, open my eyes a lot. I intend in the future to play a bard, with newfound respect. Hmmm... bard artificer... it could work. (We play Gestalt a lot)
Tomada 12-20-06, 05:39 PM	Very true, and I wholeheartedly agree that the bard's abilities lie in his versitility and aptitude with scrolls and the like. However, seeing as just one magic item annoyed Mc_Bane no end, I think that he would have claimed an unfair fight if i packed a boatload of scrolls. It did, however, open my eyes a lot. I intend in the future to play a bard, with newfound respect. Hmmm... bard artificer... it could work. (We play Gestalt a lot) If you play Epic, by all means play a Bard! Your party will love you. At level 30th, for example, you could give then something along +14 to hit, +9 damage, +9 to saves (more to fort), +9 to Ac and +9 to all stats all lasting more than 50 rounds...
DavidWL 12-20-06, 06:43 PM	Sorry for the very long delay, chaps and chapesses. Been busy, what what. Anyways, did the duels earlier today, and I bring you the results. 4 rounds played, 1 drawn, 1 lost, 2 won - an overall win for the bard. Huzzah! This is not perfectly fair - without the rod of absorption I would have been toast. However, still a good showing I felt. Here is what happened: Thank you for telling everyone what happened. It is very good of you. Most people post requests, but never tell you what came of it. (What the final build looked like, how the challenge or contest turned out, etc.) Best, David
skydragonknight 12-20-06, 06:55 PM	Bard's have "cheating" as a class feature. They win by guile and not by sheer power. In the example here, with Core-only one-hour buffs prepared(no True Seeing), the Bard would have very likely won if a major image of himself entered the arena while he hid nearby and prepped a counterspell for Time Stop. The bard's versatily makes them difficult to fight: they have so many tricks available it's difficult to prepare for them all. It is a mistake to underestimate a bard. They have gather information as a class skill, so they know where you live.
Duncs 12-20-06, 08:20 PM	It is a mistake to underestimate a bard. They have gather information as a class skill, so they know where you live. Thats siggable =] And David, you are welcome ;)
Oswald Krato 12-20-06, 11:06 PM	Bards have "cheating" as a class feature. It is a mistake to underestimate a bard. They have gather information as a class skill, so they know where you live. Okay. I have to sig that. Bards have cheating as a class feature. =P
frupton 12-21-06, 05:23 PM	that's one tactic to use: just wear the wizard out, because the bard will have one more trick in the hat. (can't think of one right at this moment, cept ofcourse for greasing the spell component pouch, very elegant, or puting silence on it. he cant really get rid of it, or walk away from it. he can ofcourse try and dispell it. which brings another idea, silencing some great magic item on him, which he will need to eject or dispell.) You can grease his component pouch or items, but if you try to cast silence on items in his posession, he gets his will save to negate. You may as well try and cast it on him. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not.
CrimsonDeath 12-27-06, 05:40 AM	I wonder if you should've used Summon Monster 6 during those Otto's Irresistable Dances or Tasha's Hideous Laughters. You can get a variety of fun creatures with this-- Celestial Polar Bears and Dire Lions or Fiendish Giant Constrictors (for grappling) or Fiendish Monstrous Spiders or Scorpions for venom (We're attacking his Fort save, right?). Main problem there is actually hitting him, I suppose... but after a Greater Dispel Magic, you have Grease and Tanglefoot Bags to knock his AC down a bit more.