Bard vs. Expert showdown! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard vs. Expert showdown! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Abulafia
09-08-05, 01:33 PM Hi all,

One of my players always plays bards. This isn't necessarily bad, but the characters he makes tend to be underpowered and die all the time once the party gets over 5th level. He's a good guy, great RP'er, and good friend, but for the good of the game I have to convince him to put a little more thought into character design and tactics (dying all the time is apparently not convincing enough). So I'm thinking about challenging him to a 1-on-1 duel with an Expert of the same level.

So my question is this: what's a feasible PH race Expert 5 build for challenging a bard? The campaign's on a homebrew world, but any feats or items not expressly tied to a different campaign (i.e., Initiate of Mystra) will be considered. Please use standard array abilities and the DMG wealth-by-level guidelines.

Here's his stats (as near as I can remember and/or recalculate):

Larch Rhiannon, NG Elf Bard 5:
Str 7, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 18; HP 21; Initiative +4; AC 23 (touch 15, flat-footed 19); F/R/W +1/+8/+3; attack +8 melee (1d6-2 rapier) or +8 ranged (1d8-2 longbow); speed 20 feet (medium load).

Feats & Skills: Negotiator, Weapon Finesse; Bluff +12, Diplomacy +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (History) +9, Knowledge (Local) +4, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Perform (Wind Instruments) +12, Sense Motive +9.

Bardic music: Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence.

Spells/day: 3/4/2 spells known: 0:Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Summon Instrument, Read Magic, Lullaby; 1: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self, Sleep; 2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Detect Thoughts, Tongues.

Possessions of note: flute, masterwork rapier, Longbow +1, +1 elven chainmail, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +1, wand of cure light wounds (17 charges left), Heward's Haversack. He has a couple scrolls and potions as well, but for the life of me I can't remember what he has. I don't think it's anything of consequence.

I was thinking of a Use Magic Device build (it drives me crazy that he won't put skill points into UMD), with either a wand of fireball or magic missile, but something that takes advantage of his low Fortitude save would be good too. Any suggestions?
UMiskatonic
09-08-05, 02:40 PM Build a guy with improved grapple. With a Str of 7, the bard will go down like a paper sack. Have a good enough Con so that you can survive getting hit with an arrow or two.
Abulafia
09-08-05, 03:10 PM Thanks for the idea, UMisk (go Shoggoths!), but I really want to beat him with tactics that he could use as a bard -- that's why I picked the Expert class. If I just wanted to pound him, I would use a power-attacking barbarian or something.
Khazra Reborn
09-08-05, 04:33 PM Then why not use bard5 instead? UMD would be a good way to get him, or outcombat him with your bard to show that weapon finesses isn't worth it when your strengths that low, he'll be doing almost no damage in combat anyway & should just avoid it!
UMiskatonic
09-08-05, 04:33 PM Well then, UMD is your man.

If you really want to showcase its power, grab something form every spell list. I'd start with a druid favorite, briar web, and follow up with a succession of other 1st and 2nd level spells. Glitterdust, Spiritual Weapon, True Strike, Tasha's, Ray of Enfeeblement are all really good ways to go, as they are NOT powerhouse spells, and yet they'll do a job of working him over.

You could start with an entangle, and then follow with true strike, and ray of enfeeblement. Use the spring attack and sleight of hand combo to systematically rob everything he owns, and then walk away.

Total cost=75 gp
Mommy was an Orc
09-08-05, 05:21 PM Well, I think the problem isn't so much that he's playing a Bard, but rather, he has no idea why he's taking things.

A Str 7/Con 10 character using a d6 weapon with Weapon Finesse? Why?
Negotiator in a game where he has major weaknesses elsewhere.

The UMD isn't as big a problem as it seems - he'd have a +12. Which isn't bad, but it really isn't going to help all that much. Now if he refuses to get it later on, that's a different story, but we're not quite there yet.

Then his spell selection - that's just horrific. All of his first level spells are easily replacable or not particularly useful in combat - Charm Person has a -5, Cure Light Wounds is a cheap wand, Disguise Self at will is an 1800 gold item, and Sleep doesn't affect 5HD opponents. His 2nd level spells show repetition(Cure Moderate) and again, aren't useful in combat.

In short, we've got a character who serves almost no purpose in combat other than Bard song. And I get the feeling he doesn't even do that as his first action all the time.

I'd make the following changes:
Pick up a light crossbow(1d8 vs 1d8-2)
Replace Sleep with Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Replace Cure Moderate Wounds with Inspirational Boost
Replace Detect Thoughts with Suggestion(someone fails their Will Save vs Suggestion, you can know their thoughts anyway if you want - "You find yourself babbling whatever is on your mind and not finding it strange whatsoever...")
Replace the two feats with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot or Improved Initiative or Spell Focus: Enchantment and Extra Music(to be quickly followed up by Lyric Spell at 6th level)

That doesn't seem to contradict his character concept in any way, but it gives him a lot more options at little cost.

Str 7, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 18; HP 21; Initiative +4; AC 23 (touch 15, flat-footed 19)

Feats & Skills: Negotiator, Weapon Finesse
Spells/day: 3/4/2 spells known: 0:Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Summon Instrument, Read Magic, Lullaby; 1: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self, Sleep; 2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Detect Thoughts, Tongues.
UMiskatonic
09-08-05, 05:25 PM Tongues is also sub-par for a character who has speak language as a class skill. You have precious few spell slots as a bard, make them count.
Abulafia
09-08-05, 05:42 PM Well, I think the problem isn't so much that he's playing a Bard, but rather, he has no idea why he's taking things.

A Str 7/Con 10 character using a d6 weapon with Weapon Finesse? Why?
Negotiator in a game where he has major weaknesses elsewhere. [. . .]
Tongues is also sub-par for a character who has speak language as a class skill. You have precious few spell slots as a bard, make them count.You guys are preaching to the choir here. I have talked to this guy over and over again about his spell selection, skill selection, feat selection, ability-point allocation . . . it's just pointless. He thinks that doing anything that makes his character more functional is, and I quote, "lame." I pile magic items on him in the hope of keeping him alive, but it always ends up the same -- his characters essentially become luggage after a campaign gets into mid-levels.

Everybody in the group likes him, but they get tired of carting his dead [behind] around -- my fiancee has taken to calling her bag of holding "Larch's summer home." I don't want to kick him out just because he's a terrible number cruncher, and I'm hoping that losing a duel quickly and convincingly to a NPC class will open his eyes.

In short, we've got a character who serves almost no purpose in combat other than Bard song. And I get the feeling he doesn't even do that as his first action all the time.Your instincts are good -- out of combat he's a deft party face, but in combat his first action is to charge in with his rapier.

His second action, typically, is to die.
Blade2718
09-08-05, 05:58 PM If repeated deaths (and the XP loss associated with them) don't teach him anything, I doubt a duel is going to teach him anything either. I think the first order of business is to figure out what his primary motivation is for playing, so we can appeal to it.

Also, you could eliminate resurrection methods altogether in your game. Perhaps constantly rerolling might knock some sense into him.
Lord Schpungus
09-08-05, 06:27 PM Choose Autohypnosis and UMD as two of your Expert Skills. Maybe even Iajitsu Focus.
Mommy was an Orc
09-08-05, 08:44 PM I think the first thing to say is roughly something along the lines of this:
"I really love how you roleplay your character out of combat, but you're so focused on being not functional, that your roleplaying in combat makes it difficult for me to DM a game. No one with a 7 Str and 10 Con is going to constantly charge into a melee unless they have some amazingly functional combat abilities - a feat and an 18 Dex isn't even near that.

I keep running into the same three choices - I distort the game to keep you alive, have the monsters intelligently decide to just ignore you, or kill you outright. I hate killing you over and over again, or tossing you magic items and not every monster is intelligent. So that needs to stop.

I'm not saying you have to be an amazing character who dominates combat or perhaps even that effective, and you can still play a bard character, but I need you to help me. If you're interested in being a swashbuckling bard, which you appear to be, I can help you make a character who is good at doing just that.

What can I do to make both of us enjoy the game fully?"

One of the best examples I've seen of why people end up thinking bards aren't phenomenally powerful - people with no tactical sense end up playing them badly.

He thinks that doing anything that makes his character more functional is, and I quote, "lame." I pile magic items on him in the hope of keeping him alive, but it always ends up the same -- his characters essentially become luggage after a campaign gets into mid-levels.
X-Codes
09-08-05, 09:13 PM For every single fight, throw in a spellstitched pixie skeleton. Every time the bard shows up, have the skeleton cast Ray of Enfeeblement on him. If he is carrying more than 20 lbs of equipment, then he can only take a 5 foot step as a full-round action, or crawl 5 feet as a move action (but he would be prone).
Pull My Finger of Death
09-08-05, 10:39 PM Is he chaotic? Is he misinterpreting what that means? Tell him running into battle to his certain death isn't chaotic, it's stupid and poor roleplaying with a character of decent intelligence. The same goes for intentionally picking crappy spells. Maybe he's better suited being a barb.

If you're bent on teaching him a lesson, the spell Shatter will do the trick.
Mistwell
09-09-05, 12:11 AM Be an elf (+2 to Diplomacy), or a large size race (+4 to Intimidate). Max Intimidate (+8) and Diplomacy (+8). Max Charisma (+4). Max UMD and the other charisma-based skills while you are at it, since you will be great at them. A wand of charm person would help.

Take skill focus: Intimidate (+3), skill focus: Diplomacy (+3), Neogiator (+2) and Persuasive (+2). Put 5 ranks into sense motive (+2 Diplomacy), bluff (+2 Diplomacy, and +2 Intimidate), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(+2 Diplomacy) for synergy bonuses. Get magic items that help with charisma-based skills (Circlet of Persuasion (+3), Cloak of Charisma (+1)). At 6th level take the leadership feat (I know that is beyond your test at level 5, just wanted to point out you will have a great henchman and followers).

Now intimidate him into surrendering, or use diplomacy to end the encounter with him offerring you all the help you request.

Your Diplomacy check is +8 (skill ranks) +2 (elf) + 4 (base charisma) +1 (cloak of charisma) + 3 (circlet of persuasion) +2 (negotiator) +2 (sense motive) +2 (bluff) +2 (knowledge: nobility and royalty) +3 (skill focus) = +29. You need to roll a 6 to change someone's attitude from hostile to friendly. You can rush the check with a -10 penalty and as a full round action you will make your opponant indifferent or even friendly with a lucky roll.
Lord Zeb
09-09-05, 01:11 AM Aw man, what a nice GM you are! I'd seriously be limiting access to resurrection magic if the PC kept dying in the same way over & over again (Charge! baaad for low str, low hp types after all).

That said, Mommy has great tips for feat selections (I also recommend Lingering Song & Song of the Heart -- +3 w/ inspirational boost spell for inspire courage is pretty sweet!)... but from a more RP perspective, since he's the "face", how about the monsters / enemies instead of trying to kill him when he charges up decide that he'd make a great hostage to get the PCs to do XYZ, or give up XYZ?

Ex. Clan of hobgoblins encounter PCs, some die, some escape. A little while later (days, weeks, whatever), the PCs encounter more hobs, except this time after the bard charges the hobgoblin deals nonlethal damage with his mace until the bard drops. Then some back-row hobs grab the body and try to make their escape. Party gets to 1) rescue / negotiate for their friend and 2) bard gets to try to talk his way out of it, use his non-combat skills...

Now, you couldn't do this eeeevery time of course, but variations of this could work well. Maybe the next enemy disarms him instead of nonlethal damage... or a cleric holds person on him as he is in mid-charge.

Tailoring your encounters around him like this is tough, but let's say round 1 he sings (help pull his weight...), then round two he does the charge trick, gets KO'd or disarmed, but in the meantime the rest of the party is enjoying +3 to hit and damage for 10 rounds....even while the bard is senseless on the ground or being kept at bay from his rapier.

Oh, and while I don't like his spell selection either, at the least have him pick up Inspirational Boost, dropping sleep since soon most CR-approprate things will be immune due to the HD cap.
Blade2718
09-09-05, 01:38 AM Be an elf (+2 to Diplomacy), or a large size race (+4 to Intimidate). Max Intimidate (+8) and Diplomacy (+8). Max Charisma (+4). Max UMD and the other charisma-based skills while you are at it, since you will be great at them. A wand of charm person would help.

Take skill focus: Intimidate (+3), skill focus: Diplomacy (+3), Neogiator (+2) and Persuasive (+2). Put 5 ranks into sense motive (+2 Diplomacy), bluff (+2 Diplomacy, and +2 Intimidate), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(+2 Diplomacy) for synergy bonuses. Get magic items that help with charisma-based skills (Circlet of Persuasion (+3), Cloak of Charisma (+1)). At 6th level take the leadership feat (I know that is beyond your test at level 5, just wanted to point out you will have a great henchman and followers).

Now intimidate him into surrendering, or use diplomacy to end the encounter with him offerring you all the help you request.

Your Diplomacy check is +8 (skill ranks) +2 (elf) + 4 (base charisma) +1 (cloak of charisma) + 3 (circlet of persuasion) +2 (negotiator) +2 (sense motive) +2 (bluff) +2 (knowledge: nobility and royalty) +3 (skill focus) = +29. You need to roll a 6 to change someone's attitude from hostile to friendly. You can rush the check with a -10 penalty and as a full round action you will make your opponant indifferent or even friendly with a lucky roll.Its good in theory, but Diplomacy and all the other social interaction skills have no bearing on PC attitudes. Player characters are free to react socially as they please, within the rules set forth by their DM.
Mistwell
09-09-05, 11:24 AM Its good in theory, but Diplomacy and all the other social interaction skills have no bearing on PC attitudes. Player characters are free to react socially as they please, within the rules set forth by their DM.

First, I disagree that is the rule. I'd like to see where in RAW that is written that intimidate doesn't work against a PC for example.

Second, In this context, with a one-on-one fight for demonstration purposes only, even if it is the rule I disagree. The whole point is to show the PC what they could be doing with their PC if they used it well. In THAT context, diplomacy should function as if the PC were an NPC.
Mommy was an Orc
09-09-05, 12:11 PM Diplomacy: "You can change the attitudes of others(nonplayer characters)"
Intimidate: "Target retains his normal attitude", "See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details"

PCs don't have "attitudes", that's an NPC only thing as detailed on page 72 of PHB...

That doesn't mean the player can't choose to roleplay it out, but...

First, I disagree that is the rule. I'd like to see where in RAW that is written that intimidate doesn't work against a PC for example.
Abulafia
09-09-05, 12:19 PM Lots of good posts here. Lord Schpungus: Iaijutsu Focus? That's just mean, buddy. Awesome, but mean. Finger: he's neutral. He charges in to combat because he envisions his character as a coward trying to prove something to himself. Also I don't think he realizes exactly how hopeless his guy is. Mistwell: your suggestion of building an Intimidator is an excellent one, but he's actually pretty sharp on using his social skills. I'm trying to show him that his combat survivability and tactics are laughably poor.

I think the first thing to say is roughly something along the lines of this:
"I really love how you roleplay your character out of combat, but you're so focused on being not functional, that your roleplaying in combat makes it difficult for me to DM a game. No one with a 7 Str and 10 Con is going to constantly charge into a melee unless they have some amazingly functional combat abilities - a feat and an 18 Dex isn't even near that.

I keep running into the same three choices - I distort the game to keep you alive, have the monsters intelligently decide to just ignore you, or kill you outright. I hate killing you over and over again, or tossing you magic items and not every monster is intelligent. So that needs to stop.

I'm not saying you have to be an amazing character who dominates combat or perhaps even that effective, and you can still play a bard character, but I need you to help me. If you're interested in being a swashbuckling bard, which you appear to be, I can help you make a character who is good at doing just that.

What can I do to make both of us enjoy the game fully?"Thanks for the advice, Mommy (please ignore the unintentional comedy in that sentence). What I'm trying to do is change his mind about character design. He thinks that min/maxing to any extent is twinky; what I'm trying to show him is that a certain amount of min/max is expected (and even required). Frankly, I'd be happy if I could convince him to just hang back and use his music during combat. He's a fairly proud guy, and I have to believe losing a duel to an Expert (he likes to joke about NPC classes) would open his eyes a little bit.

We're playing tonight. The group's going to run into a surly bunch of sailors, one of whom will immediately dislike Larch (not much of a stretch -- the guy loves to rile NPCs). I don't think he will be able to turn down a challenge to a formal duel; like I said, he's pretty proud. After checking the numbers I think an Expert straight out of the DMG is a fairly even match for him; an Expert with Improved Initiative, a +15 UMD modifier and a wand of Ghoul Touch should have no problem. The UMD modifier is a little twinky, but it's not too out of line with where Larch could/should be.

I gotta tell you, I feel a little weird being the only DM complaining that his players don't powergame enough!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Abulafia 09-08-05, 01:33 PM	Hi all, One of my players always plays bards. This isn't necessarily bad, but the characters he makes tend to be underpowered and die all the time once the party gets over 5th level. He's a good guy, great RP'er, and good friend, but for the good of the game I have to convince him to put a little more thought into character design and tactics (dying all the time is apparently not convincing enough). So I'm thinking about challenging him to a 1-on-1 duel with an Expert of the same level. So my question is this: what's a feasible PH race Expert 5 build for challenging a bard? The campaign's on a homebrew world, but any feats or items not expressly tied to a different campaign (i.e., Initiate of Mystra) will be considered. Please use standard array abilities and the DMG wealth-by-level guidelines. Here's his stats (as near as I can remember and/or recalculate): Larch Rhiannon, NG Elf Bard 5: Str 7, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 18; HP 21; Initiative +4; AC 23 (touch 15, flat-footed 19); F/R/W +1/+8/+3; attack +8 melee (1d6-2 rapier) or +8 ranged (1d8-2 longbow); speed 20 feet (medium load). Feats & Skills: Negotiator, Weapon Finesse; Bluff +12, Diplomacy +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (History) +9, Knowledge (Local) +4, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Perform (Wind Instruments) +12, Sense Motive +9. Bardic music: Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence. Spells/day: 3/4/2 spells known: 0:Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Summon Instrument, Read Magic, Lullaby; 1: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self, Sleep; 2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Detect Thoughts, Tongues. Possessions of note: flute, masterwork rapier, Longbow +1, +1 elven chainmail, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +1, wand of cure light wounds (17 charges left), Heward's Haversack. He has a couple scrolls and potions as well, but for the life of me I can't remember what he has. I don't think it's anything of consequence. I was thinking of a Use Magic Device build (it drives me crazy that he won't put skill points into UMD), with either a wand of fireball or magic missile, but something that takes advantage of his low Fortitude save would be good too. Any suggestions?
UMiskatonic 09-08-05, 02:40 PM	Build a guy with improved grapple. With a Str of 7, the bard will go down like a paper sack. Have a good enough Con so that you can survive getting hit with an arrow or two.
Abulafia 09-08-05, 03:10 PM	Thanks for the idea, UMisk (go Shoggoths!), but I really want to beat him with tactics that he could use as a bard -- that's why I picked the Expert class. If I just wanted to pound him, I would use a power-attacking barbarian or something.
Khazra Reborn 09-08-05, 04:33 PM	Then why not use bard5 instead? UMD would be a good way to get him, or outcombat him with your bard to show that weapon finesses isn't worth it when your strengths that low, he'll be doing almost no damage in combat anyway & should just avoid it!
UMiskatonic 09-08-05, 04:33 PM	Well then, UMD is your man. If you really want to showcase its power, grab something form every spell list. I'd start with a druid favorite, briar web, and follow up with a succession of other 1st and 2nd level spells. Glitterdust, Spiritual Weapon, True Strike, Tasha's, Ray of Enfeeblement are all really good ways to go, as they are NOT powerhouse spells, and yet they'll do a job of working him over. You could start with an entangle, and then follow with true strike, and ray of enfeeblement. Use the spring attack and sleight of hand combo to systematically rob everything he owns, and then walk away. Total cost=75 gp
Mommy was an Orc 09-08-05, 05:21 PM	Well, I think the problem isn't so much that he's playing a Bard, but rather, he has no idea why he's taking things. A Str 7/Con 10 character using a d6 weapon with Weapon Finesse? Why? Negotiator in a game where he has major weaknesses elsewhere. The UMD isn't as big a problem as it seems - he'd have a +12. Which isn't bad, but it really isn't going to help all that much. Now if he refuses to get it later on, that's a different story, but we're not quite there yet. Then his spell selection - that's just horrific. All of his first level spells are easily replacable or not particularly useful in combat - Charm Person has a -5, Cure Light Wounds is a cheap wand, Disguise Self at will is an 1800 gold item, and Sleep doesn't affect 5HD opponents. His 2nd level spells show repetition(Cure Moderate) and again, aren't useful in combat. In short, we've got a character who serves almost no purpose in combat other than Bard song. And I get the feeling he doesn't even do that as his first action all the time. I'd make the following changes: Pick up a light crossbow(1d8 vs 1d8-2) Replace Sleep with Tasha's Hideous Laughter Replace Cure Moderate Wounds with Inspirational Boost Replace Detect Thoughts with Suggestion(someone fails their Will Save vs Suggestion, you can know their thoughts anyway if you want - "You find yourself babbling whatever is on your mind and not finding it strange whatsoever...") Replace the two feats with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot or Improved Initiative or Spell Focus: Enchantment and Extra Music(to be quickly followed up by Lyric Spell at 6th level) That doesn't seem to contradict his character concept in any way, but it gives him a lot more options at little cost. Str 7, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 18; HP 21; Initiative +4; AC 23 (touch 15, flat-footed 19) Feats & Skills: Negotiator, Weapon Finesse Spells/day: 3/4/2 spells known: 0:Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Summon Instrument, Read Magic, Lullaby; 1: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Disguise Self, Sleep; 2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Detect Thoughts, Tongues.
UMiskatonic 09-08-05, 05:25 PM	Tongues is also sub-par for a character who has speak language as a class skill. You have precious few spell slots as a bard, make them count.
Abulafia 09-08-05, 05:42 PM	Well, I think the problem isn't so much that he's playing a Bard, but rather, he has no idea why he's taking things. A Str 7/Con 10 character using a d6 weapon with Weapon Finesse? Why? Negotiator in a game where he has major weaknesses elsewhere. [. . .] Tongues is also sub-par for a character who has speak language as a class skill. You have precious few spell slots as a bard, make them count.You guys are preaching to the choir here. I have talked to this guy over and over again about his spell selection, skill selection, feat selection, ability-point allocation . . . it's just pointless. He thinks that doing anything that makes his character more functional is, and I quote, "lame." I pile magic items on him in the hope of keeping him alive, but it always ends up the same -- his characters essentially become luggage after a campaign gets into mid-levels. Everybody in the group likes him, but they get tired of carting his dead [behind] around -- my fiancee has taken to calling her bag of holding "Larch's summer home." I don't want to kick him out just because he's a terrible number cruncher, and I'm hoping that losing a duel quickly and convincingly to a NPC class will open his eyes. In short, we've got a character who serves almost no purpose in combat other than Bard song. And I get the feeling he doesn't even do that as his first action all the time.Your instincts are good -- out of combat he's a deft party face, but in combat his first action is to charge in with his rapier. His second action, typically, is to die.
Blade2718 09-08-05, 05:58 PM	If repeated deaths (and the XP loss associated with them) don't teach him anything, I doubt a duel is going to teach him anything either. I think the first order of business is to figure out what his primary motivation is for playing, so we can appeal to it. Also, you could eliminate resurrection methods altogether in your game. Perhaps constantly rerolling might knock some sense into him.
Lord Schpungus 09-08-05, 06:27 PM	Choose Autohypnosis and UMD as two of your Expert Skills. Maybe even Iajitsu Focus.
Mommy was an Orc 09-08-05, 08:44 PM	I think the first thing to say is roughly something along the lines of this: "I really love how you roleplay your character out of combat, but you're so focused on being not functional, that your roleplaying in combat makes it difficult for me to DM a game. No one with a 7 Str and 10 Con is going to constantly charge into a melee unless they have some amazingly functional combat abilities - a feat and an 18 Dex isn't even near that. I keep running into the same three choices - I distort the game to keep you alive, have the monsters intelligently decide to just ignore you, or kill you outright. I hate killing you over and over again, or tossing you magic items and not every monster is intelligent. So that needs to stop. I'm not saying you have to be an amazing character who dominates combat or perhaps even that effective, and you can still play a bard character, but I need you to help me. If you're interested in being a swashbuckling bard, which you appear to be, I can help you make a character who is good at doing just that. What can I do to make both of us enjoy the game fully?" One of the best examples I've seen of why people end up thinking bards aren't phenomenally powerful - people with no tactical sense end up playing them badly. He thinks that doing anything that makes his character more functional is, and I quote, "lame." I pile magic items on him in the hope of keeping him alive, but it always ends up the same -- his characters essentially become luggage after a campaign gets into mid-levels.
X-Codes 09-08-05, 09:13 PM	For every single fight, throw in a spellstitched pixie skeleton. Every time the bard shows up, have the skeleton cast Ray of Enfeeblement on him. If he is carrying more than 20 lbs of equipment, then he can only take a 5 foot step as a full-round action, or crawl 5 feet as a move action (but he would be prone).
Pull My Finger of Death 09-08-05, 10:39 PM	Is he chaotic? Is he misinterpreting what that means? Tell him running into battle to his certain death isn't chaotic, it's stupid and poor roleplaying with a character of decent intelligence. The same goes for intentionally picking crappy spells. Maybe he's better suited being a barb. If you're bent on teaching him a lesson, the spell Shatter will do the trick.
Mistwell 09-09-05, 12:11 AM	Be an elf (+2 to Diplomacy), or a large size race (+4 to Intimidate). Max Intimidate (+8) and Diplomacy (+8). Max Charisma (+4). Max UMD and the other charisma-based skills while you are at it, since you will be great at them. A wand of charm person would help. Take skill focus: Intimidate (+3), skill focus: Diplomacy (+3), Neogiator (+2) and Persuasive (+2). Put 5 ranks into sense motive (+2 Diplomacy), bluff (+2 Diplomacy, and +2 Intimidate), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(+2 Diplomacy) for synergy bonuses. Get magic items that help with charisma-based skills (Circlet of Persuasion (+3), Cloak of Charisma (+1)). At 6th level take the leadership feat (I know that is beyond your test at level 5, just wanted to point out you will have a great henchman and followers). Now intimidate him into surrendering, or use diplomacy to end the encounter with him offerring you all the help you request. Your Diplomacy check is +8 (skill ranks) +2 (elf) + 4 (base charisma) +1 (cloak of charisma) + 3 (circlet of persuasion) +2 (negotiator) +2 (sense motive) +2 (bluff) +2 (knowledge: nobility and royalty) +3 (skill focus) = +29. You need to roll a 6 to change someone's attitude from hostile to friendly. You can rush the check with a -10 penalty and as a full round action you will make your opponant indifferent or even friendly with a lucky roll.
Lord Zeb 09-09-05, 01:11 AM	Aw man, what a nice GM you are! I'd seriously be limiting access to resurrection magic if the PC kept dying in the same way over & over again (Charge! baaad for low str, low hp types after all). That said, Mommy has great tips for feat selections (I also recommend Lingering Song & Song of the Heart -- +3 w/ inspirational boost spell for inspire courage is pretty sweet!)... but from a more RP perspective, since he's the "face", how about the monsters / enemies instead of trying to kill him when he charges up decide that he'd make a great hostage to get the PCs to do XYZ, or give up XYZ? Ex. Clan of hobgoblins encounter PCs, some die, some escape. A little while later (days, weeks, whatever), the PCs encounter more hobs, except this time after the bard charges the hobgoblin deals nonlethal damage with his mace until the bard drops. Then some back-row hobs grab the body and try to make their escape. Party gets to 1) rescue / negotiate for their friend and 2) bard gets to try to talk his way out of it, use his non-combat skills... Now, you couldn't do this eeeevery time of course, but variations of this could work well. Maybe the next enemy disarms him instead of nonlethal damage... or a cleric holds person on him as he is in mid-charge. Tailoring your encounters around him like this is tough, but let's say round 1 he sings (help pull his weight...), then round two he does the charge trick, gets KO'd or disarmed, but in the meantime the rest of the party is enjoying +3 to hit and damage for 10 rounds....even while the bard is senseless on the ground or being kept at bay from his rapier. Oh, and while I don't like his spell selection either, at the least have him pick up Inspirational Boost, dropping sleep since soon most CR-approprate things will be immune due to the HD cap.
Blade2718 09-09-05, 01:38 AM	Be an elf (+2 to Diplomacy), or a large size race (+4 to Intimidate). Max Intimidate (+8) and Diplomacy (+8). Max Charisma (+4). Max UMD and the other charisma-based skills while you are at it, since you will be great at them. A wand of charm person would help. Take skill focus: Intimidate (+3), skill focus: Diplomacy (+3), Neogiator (+2) and Persuasive (+2). Put 5 ranks into sense motive (+2 Diplomacy), bluff (+2 Diplomacy, and +2 Intimidate), and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)(+2 Diplomacy) for synergy bonuses. Get magic items that help with charisma-based skills (Circlet of Persuasion (+3), Cloak of Charisma (+1)). At 6th level take the leadership feat (I know that is beyond your test at level 5, just wanted to point out you will have a great henchman and followers). Now intimidate him into surrendering, or use diplomacy to end the encounter with him offerring you all the help you request. Your Diplomacy check is +8 (skill ranks) +2 (elf) + 4 (base charisma) +1 (cloak of charisma) + 3 (circlet of persuasion) +2 (negotiator) +2 (sense motive) +2 (bluff) +2 (knowledge: nobility and royalty) +3 (skill focus) = +29. You need to roll a 6 to change someone's attitude from hostile to friendly. You can rush the check with a -10 penalty and as a full round action you will make your opponant indifferent or even friendly with a lucky roll.Its good in theory, but Diplomacy and all the other social interaction skills have no bearing on PC attitudes. Player characters are free to react socially as they please, within the rules set forth by their DM.
Mistwell 09-09-05, 11:24 AM	Its good in theory, but Diplomacy and all the other social interaction skills have no bearing on PC attitudes. Player characters are free to react socially as they please, within the rules set forth by their DM. First, I disagree that is the rule. I'd like to see where in RAW that is written that intimidate doesn't work against a PC for example. Second, In this context, with a one-on-one fight for demonstration purposes only, even if it is the rule I disagree. The whole point is to show the PC what they could be doing with their PC if they used it well. In THAT context, diplomacy should function as if the PC were an NPC.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-05, 12:11 PM	Diplomacy: "You can change the attitudes of others(nonplayer characters)" Intimidate: "Target retains his normal attitude", "See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details" PCs don't have "attitudes", that's an NPC only thing as detailed on page 72 of PHB... That doesn't mean the player can't choose to roleplay it out, but... First, I disagree that is the rule. I'd like to see where in RAW that is written that intimidate doesn't work against a PC for example.
Abulafia 09-09-05, 12:19 PM	Lots of good posts here. Lord Schpungus: Iaijutsu Focus? That's just mean, buddy. Awesome, but mean. Finger: he's neutral. He charges in to combat because he envisions his character as a coward trying to prove something to himself. Also I don't think he realizes exactly how hopeless his guy is. Mistwell: your suggestion of building an Intimidator is an excellent one, but he's actually pretty sharp on using his social skills. I'm trying to show him that his combat survivability and tactics are laughably poor. I think the first thing to say is roughly something along the lines of this: "I really love how you roleplay your character out of combat, but you're so focused on being not functional, that your roleplaying in combat makes it difficult for me to DM a game. No one with a 7 Str and 10 Con is going to constantly charge into a melee unless they have some amazingly functional combat abilities - a feat and an 18 Dex isn't even near that. I keep running into the same three choices - I distort the game to keep you alive, have the monsters intelligently decide to just ignore you, or kill you outright. I hate killing you over and over again, or tossing you magic items and not every monster is intelligent. So that needs to stop. I'm not saying you have to be an amazing character who dominates combat or perhaps even that effective, and you can still play a bard character, but I need you to help me. If you're interested in being a swashbuckling bard, which you appear to be, I can help you make a character who is good at doing just that. What can I do to make both of us enjoy the game fully?"Thanks for the advice, Mommy (please ignore the unintentional comedy in that sentence). What I'm trying to do is change his mind about character design. He thinks that min/maxing to any extent is twinky; what I'm trying to show him is that a certain amount of min/max is expected (and even required). Frankly, I'd be happy if I could convince him to just hang back and use his music during combat. He's a fairly proud guy, and I have to believe losing a duel to an Expert (he likes to joke about NPC classes) would open his eyes a little bit. We're playing tonight. The group's going to run into a surly bunch of sailors, one of whom will immediately dislike Larch (not much of a stretch -- the guy loves to rile NPCs). I don't think he will be able to turn down a challenge to a formal duel; like I said, he's pretty proud. After checking the numbers I think an Expert straight out of the DMG is a fairly even match for him; an Expert with Improved Initiative, a +15 UMD modifier and a wand of Ghoul Touch should have no problem. The UMD modifier is a little twinky, but it's not too out of line with where Larch could/should be. I gotta tell you, I feel a little weird being the only DM complaining that his players don't powergame enough!