Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wushufunk 01-27-07, 03:54 PM	Ok, i'm in a group of evil caniving power gamer and when i told them i wanted to play a bard they laughed their asses of. Here are the conditions 1. It's a fith level bard wich i plan for it to be a dirge singer 2. Multiclassing isn't prefered. 3. Human 4. good 5. no support charchters, my dm is highly judgemental on individual merit. 6. no i will not change groups, these guys are my friends
Drill_Sgt 01-27-07, 04:02 PM	well, right away the problem yer gonna have is dirge singer requires non-good... your creating undead...
GaffeR 01-27-07, 04:50 PM	5. no support charchters, my dm is highly judgemental on individual merit. That is your biggest problem. Bards are designed to be support characters, especially 1-20. The Dirgesinger also sucks. It barely progresses music (times/day only), makes you take a BAB penalty, and doesn't progress casting. Also, a lot of their music won't affect anything immune to mind affecting, compulsion, or enchantment effects, and isn't that good for a round's actions (-2 to will saves, confusion vs 1 creature, 1d6 str damage, yeehaw). Even the Raise Dead song only works for creatures with less HD than you and you can only have 1 at a time. Bards can be fantastic additions to groups if you concentrate on what they're good at: buffing other people, removing small groups of enemies from combat, being useful, and being the face. Otherwise, you get into trouble, unless you're multiclassing heavily (Sublime chord gishes, for instance).
PhaedrusXY 01-27-07, 06:21 PM	I think bards with the right feats can actually be decent in combat themselves. I haven't seen one played, but I've seen alot of "combat bard" builds floating around here using things like Snowflake Wardance, and boosts to bardic music.
Edea 01-27-07, 06:24 PM	Please don't shoot me for suggesting this, but...you might want to consider playing a Dervish (Complete Warrior). Thing is, Perform (dance) powers their main class ability (and is one of the stranger prerequisites), and you can use bardic music effects while dervish dancing. Also, Tumble is a class skill for bards, though I strongly recommed Fighter 2 to get two of the prereq feats and proficiency with the scimitar (as well as a Fort save boost). However, this forfeits most of your spellcasting, so make sure to have full ranks in UMD. I dunno, just a thought. I like Dervishes a lot...
jaerad 01-27-07, 06:28 PM	That is your biggest problem. Bards are designed to be support characters, especially 1-20. I think the OP just meant no Leadership buffoonery.
Bopple 01-27-07, 07:05 PM	There are two ways; 1. Melee bard with combat-oriented PrC and with feats like Snowflake Wardance/Arcane Strike/ect. 2. Caster bard with Sublime Chord/Shadowcraft Mage(gnome only, though) and with feats like Metamagic Song(or whatever name it maybe)/ect. But they are not really as powerful as full-time warriors or casters. But still decent. If you play a straight 20 lvl bard, well, it's fine at lower level, but at higher lvl, no high lvl spell will make you unhappy.
Tomada 01-27-07, 07:28 PM	There are two ways; 1. Melee bard with combat-oriented PrC and with feats like Snowflake Wardance/Arcane Strike/ect. 2. Caster bard with Sublime Chord/Shadowcraft Mage(gnome only, though) and with feats like Metamagic Song(or whatever name it maybe)/ect. But they are not really as powerful as full-time warriors or casters. But still decent. If you play a straight 20 lvl bard, well, it's fine at lower level, but at higher lvl, no high lvl spell will make you unhappy. BUT, if it's going epic, by all means stick to bard 20, the bard songs feats are just... well, let me say you can almost double several bonni of your friends...
Khan the Destroyer 01-28-07, 12:48 AM	1. It's a fith level bard wich i plan for it to be a dirge singer This is quite honestly going to prove your friends' point. The Dirge Singer does not lend itself well to 'power gaming'. If you really want a strong self-sufficient bard, I would suggest no Dirge Singer. This leads me to my next point... 2. Multiclassing isn't prefered. In the case of the bard, that is ok. The bard has great skills, class features, and two good saves, not to mention spellcasting. 3. Human Again, nothing wrong here. Human is an excellent option (as usual). 4. good Depending on what books are available to you, this choice may have doubled your offensive power. 5. no support charchters, my dm is highly judgemental on individual merit. That's ok. In the case of combat especially, boosting your own prowess has the nice side effect of boosting your allies' prowess as well. 6. no i will not change groups, these guys are my friends Fair enough :). Now, before I can really suggest anything, I need to know what books you have available to draw feats, spells, and classes from. The bard has a lot of options open spread over many books (Core, the Races series, the Complete series, Book of Exalted Deeds). Hopefully, you won't tell us you are limited to core. I tried to demonstrate all of the various strengths of the bard in a recent thread on the Classes forum. Restricted to core, I don't think I could do it.
Caelic 01-28-07, 12:54 AM	Of course, when I hear bard, I think Diplo-monster, which would really require Half-elf as the race.
NineInchNall 01-28-07, 01:03 AM	Yeah, so do I. Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Bard 8/Sublime Chord 10. That's so bardic I don't even know how to describe it, and it's got 9th level spells, and it's got a Diplomacy modifier from Hell. Why complain about multiclassing? Makes no sense. Everything is soooo thematically unified! Pick up Words of Creation, Melodic Spellcasting, Skill Focus, etc.
Khan the Destroyer 01-28-07, 01:32 AM	Of course, when I hear bard, I think Diplo-monster, which would really require Half-elf as the race. Maybe I am one of the few people that thinks the Half-Elf Bard Diplomancer breaks the game :rolleyes:. That's so bardic I don't even know how to describe it, and it's got 9th level spells, and it's got a Diplomacy modifier from Hell. Why complain about multiclassing? Makes no sense. Well in his defense, he didn't actually complain about it. He said it wasn't preferred. As much as I would like for him to play a character that is competitive with the other players, I think the Diplomancer would get old pretty quick.
DavidWL 01-28-07, 01:49 AM	Ok, i'm in a group of evil caniving power gamer and when i told them i wanted to play a bard they laughed their asses of. Here are the conditions 1. It's a fith level bard wich i plan for it to be a dirge singer 2. Multiclassing isn't prefered. 3. Human 4. good 5. no support charchters, my dm is highly judgemental on individual merit. 6. no i will not change groups, these guys are my friends Well, if they really are reasonably good powergamers, I don't think you stand much chance of really exceling, given your constraints. That said, there are some things which can give you a lot of bang for your buck: In General: Bard Spell (Spells which are Bard only, or which are available to the bard at lower level) Spell: Improvisation Feat: Mercantile For a Buffing Bard: Feat: Words Of Creation Feat: Song Of the Heart Feat: Extend song (to stack songs, since often duration is however long you sing) Spell: Harmonize and Greater Harmonize Item: There are items that boost the bardic songs by about +1, although I don't remember them. Item: If you can use 3.0, cloaker flute For a Combat Bard: Feat: Snowflake Wardance Feat: Arcane Strike Other stuff: that allows multiple attacks "UMD Monkey" Max UMD Ranks Good Charisma Feat: Metamagic Spell Trigger + metamagic feats Item: That item that allows you to use 3 wands at once ... not now, but later End Result - yes, a strait Bard could probably be competetive, but you'll have to play very smart, be careful with feat choices, etc. What books can you use? Best, David
wushufunk 01-28-07, 12:03 PM	oh yes, the books i have acess to are ebberon campaign setting, fiendish codex 1&2, races of stone and the wild, manual of the planes, planar handbook, a bunch of others that won't really make a diffrence. i don't have any complete books but i could probably borrow some copies from my friends. i just recently looked at the master of maskes thing and it looked like it might fit. i think i might take 5 levels in bard. i think waht i need now is some sort of bard prestige class that will boost my spellcasting and songs.
Edea 01-28-07, 12:08 PM	Master of Masks makes the baby Jesus weep tears of blood. Stay far, far away. A straight bard will be better than a Master of Masks build.
wushufunk 01-28-07, 12:25 PM	Master of Masks makes the baby Jesus weep tears of blood. Stay far, far away. A straight bard will be better than a Master of Masks build. Whats wrong with it? anyway i was digging around exerpt feature and found the virtuoso from song and silence. my question is if it changed at all from the complete adventurer and if so wich version is better.
NineInchNall 01-28-07, 12:44 PM	As much as I would like for him to play a character that is competitive with the other players, I think the Diplomancer would get old pretty quick. Bah. You may be right. Still and all, make it Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 and he gets 9th level spells. That should really be enough to satisfy the powergamers at his table. i think i might take 5 levels in bard. i think waht i need now is some sort of bard prestige class that will boost my spellcasting and songs. A Bard PrC that boosts your spellcasting and songs? Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane. Combine it with Virtuoso from Complete Adventurer. Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Follow DavidWL's advice for feats.
DavidWL 01-28-07, 12:49 PM	Ok, i'm in a group of evil caniving power gamer and when i told them i wanted to play a bard they laughed their asses of. Here are the conditions 1. It's a fith level bard wich i plan for it to be a dirge singer 2. Multiclassing isn't prefered. 3. Human 4. good 5. no support charchters, my dm is highly judgemental on individual merit. 6. no i will not change groups, these guys are my friends Thinking about it, when you say, "multiclassing isn't preferred" I assume you mean that Bard should be the only base class? (But not that you can't take prestige classes, as you plan to take the Dirge singer). In that case, I'd join the other's above in saying that you should take Sublime Chord + Something. Best, David
Endless_Helix 01-28-07, 12:52 PM	On Master of Masks: It sacrifices far too much power for too little versatility. It's a bit like a watered down Chameleon. How about Bard 10/Sublime Chord2/Unseen Seer 8? You get 9th level spells and you can blackmail the gods... Your DM will probably blache when he realizes what you can do to a campaign setting with CL 26 divinations.
jameswilliamogle 01-28-07, 01:08 PM	5th level Bard, I'd do the following: Strongheart Halfling Bard 5 1 Dodge, Combat Expertise 3 Weapon Finesse (Snowflake Wardance at 6th) important spells known: Grease, CLW, Alter Self, Cat's Grace For now, use Alter Self to take the form of a Marruspawn Lurk (Sandstorm) to get 2d6 Sneak Attack, full Combat Expertise, inspire courage, and Cat's Grace on yourself. You then tumble around, flanking to get to your allies using a sickle and getting all the extra damage. Assuming a 16 Dex preracial, you'll have a +9 to hit when flanking, d4+2d6+1 damage, and an AC of 22, which isn't bad at all, really.
interpretivechaos 01-28-07, 01:33 PM	You can also try a cavalier style bard gish. Bard 4, Fighter 1, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 2, Knight Phantom 2, Sublime Chord two, and finish out with knight phantom. Reminds me of my favorite bardic kit in 2nd edition, the cavalier, the dashing romantic knight who defended love, honor, innocents, and all that other courtly paragon of good (And got the whole rennaisance man thing... he could defend the castle, and then sing ballads about all the beautiful ladies in it) If you have any character concepts, tell us, and we'll point you in the right direction.
Xylem 01-28-07, 02:59 PM	You can also try a cavalier style bard gish. Bard 4, Fighter 1, Spellsword 1, Abjurant Champion 2, Knight Phantom 1, Sublime Chord 1 or two, and finish out with knight phantom. Sorry to be fussy, but you can't take Sublime Chord at 10th, as you need 13 skill ranks in Listen and Knowledge (arcana). But it looks like a fun build. I suppose you could sub Crusader or Knight for Fighter, but I don't know if it would improve it any.
acvar 01-28-07, 03:44 PM	The simplest would be to just go straight bard. Take extra music for both your first level feats, song of the heart at 3rd, and lyric song at 6th to make the extra music usefull. Focus on "save or be screwed" spells let your music make yourself and everybody else great in combat. Melodic casting will let you cast while "singing", but extra music can do similar things and makes lyric song and other bardic music feats better. Same goes for lingering song. Ironskin chant is quite good if you have enough songs per day, and there are a couple of good bard music feats in Complete Scoundrel as well. Instead of trying to make the bard the spotlight character make him the best support character you can and change your DM's perspective on what is good. After a few sessions of you making all your allies awsome, and having the party just demolish the encounters he throws at you I garuntee he will respect your "support" character.
SageBahamut 01-28-07, 03:58 PM	I'm going to jump on the bandwagon here and say Bard/Sublime Chord. But I'm going to be a little weird and say, why not have a little bit of support mixed in? By which I mean, take all 5 levels of WarWeaver (Heroes of Battle) and show your group what party buffing is all about. Individual merit or no, you can't go wrong, especially because it gives you 4/5 casting, so you're not giving up much to get it. Squeeze in a couple of levels before level 10, pick up a level of Sublime Chord at level 11, finish off WarWeaver, then go back to Sublime Chord till the end. Overall you lose one casting level, and you'll still have 9th-level spells (at least I'm fairly certain you will, if you do it right and don't get your levels all screwy like I did last time I played this), but you'll also be the ultimate support machine (can we say Cure Serious Wounds on yourself plus your CHA mod in others for one casting) to make the other powergamers even more insane.
Valdrax 01-28-07, 04:46 PM	By which I mean, take all 5 levels of WarWeaver (Heroes of Battle) and show your group what party buffing is all about. I'm going to second this. Once you play a War Weaver, no DM is going to think of support characters as dead weight. In fact, since you're in Eberron, there's no reason that you can't go with Caelic's Changeling Sublime Chord/War Weaver/Recaster build. Check out the War Weaver guide in my sig for more info on where to take this character.
ChristopherGroves 01-28-07, 05:37 PM	I'm going to second this. Once you play a War Weaver, no DM is going to think of support characters as dead weight. In fact, since you're in Eberron, there's no reason that you can't go with Caelic's Changeling Sublime Chord/War Weaver/Recaster build. Check out the War Weaver guide in my sig for more info on where to take this character. Amen to that. If your party doesn't love you, they are stupid. The Changeling Bard / Sublime Chord / War Weaver / Recaster is, at higher levels, the kind of thing you REALLY want in your party - you make everyone better. Lots better. Who doesn't like full-party heals every round? If the game isn't going to the high teems I'd still suggest Bard / War Weaver / Sublime Chord combo for a buffing dude, just go human.
RadicalTaoist 01-28-07, 06:13 PM	Before I offer any advice to the OP I want to clarify: you just want a bard that can compete, you do *not* want to show any 'power gamers' how powerful the bard can be. Am I on the level, wushufunk? What the rest of the party is playing would be helpful too.
Stickboy2323 01-28-07, 06:16 PM	Here's a couple equipment suggestions. Slippers of Battledancing (DMG2 pg. 272) and Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (DragMag 314 pg. 22). The slippers let you use your CHA mod instead of your STR or DEX for both attack and damage and give a +2 insight bonus on initiative checks. The gauntlets let you add your CHA mod as fire damage on melee and touch attacks. All of the attack and damage bonuses are untyped and therefore should stack. If you are Snowflake Wardancing while wearing these items you'll be BAB+CHA+CHA+misc(enchantment, etc.) for attacks and base+CHA+CHA(fire)+misc(enchantment, etc.) for damage. Pump up your CHA score and go make something fall down.
interpretivechaos 01-28-07, 07:27 PM	Missed that. Take the second level of Knight Phantom before Sublime chord, and take two levels of sublime chord. That gives you song of arcane power and all 10 levels of Knight phantom.
wushufunk 01-28-07, 07:35 PM	Hmm, well I'm thinking Bard 5/sublime cord 5/ master of masks. I have my heart set on master of masks because i plan for him to form a terrorist group to topple the empire, i'm thinking mexican masked wrestler inpired maks, or Mayan, day of the dead type masks. if need be i could make udjustments to the prestge class. now, i whant him to a melee combatnent. i might wanna use knife throwing since that is very popular in latin countries.
tsuyoshikentsu 01-28-07, 08:11 PM	I don't think you get it. Masters of Masks sucks. If you want to be competitive at all, don't even waste your time.
Edea 01-28-07, 08:18 PM	Why we don't like the idea of a Master of Masks 10 build partition: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attacks: Bard 5: +3 BAB. Sublime Chord 5: +2 BAB. Master of Masks 10: +5 BAB. Final BAB: +10. Iterative attacks at level 20: 2. A melee combatant, this build is not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spellcasting: Bard 5: spellcasting up to 2nd level. Master of Masks 5: gets you to 3rd level bard spells (caster level 7th). Sublime Chord 5: gets you to 7th level spells (caster level 12th). Master of Masks 5: gets you to 8th level spells (caster level 14th). Final spellcasting: 3/3/2/4/4/3/2/1, caster level 14th, at level 20. Hmm, not too terrible, I guess :/. This says nothing of how (un)playable the character is before reaching Sublime Chord 5. Also, some would argue that your caster level is 10th, not 14th, taking the literal reading of you needing actual sublime chord levels and actual bard levels, not the +1 increases (few as they are) provided by Master of Masks. This is still in debate. I don't know how your DM will view in this case. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saving Throws at 20th: +5/+15/+15. The absolute best thing about this build is the above normal Will save and the possibility of casting 8th level spells. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hit Dice at 20th: 20d6. Not melee combatant material, though that's decent enough for a spellcaster. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bardic Music: Master of Masks kills this. You get 7 uses per day at 20th, and you have only 1) the low level bard songs, and 2) a couple of marginally useful sublime chord songs. On the plus side, it sounds like you're not into performances, so this shouldn't matter much. On the minus side, if you're not into performances...why are you playing a bard? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skill Points: Again, Master of Masks kills this. 15 levels are at 4 + Int, which is average. LOOK at the Master of Mask's class skill list. What the **** is that? It's crap, that's what it is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special: Sorry, the masks are not worth 9th level spells. A single casting of shapechange per day is a greater benefit than the entire class's special ability list. In fact, just wear a variety of mundane masks, while benefitting from other spell effects, to fulfill your RP requirements. Saves a lot of trouble. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- End answer: Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 > Bard 5/Master of Masks 5/Sublime Chord 5/Master of Masks +5. Master of Masks 10 makes everything worse. Stay away from that. However, a 2-level dip into MoM (potentially) gets you the Gladiator mask, which nets you proficiency with all marital and exotic weapons (easily the best mask of them all, far and away), and the Archmage mask, which will recuperate 2 lost arcane caster levels when worn. The 2nd level advances spellcasting, good saves, and BAB, so might as well take it too. That finishes the dip, and that's as far as I'd ever go with it.
LordBOB777 01-28-07, 08:25 PM	I also saw the Seeker of the Song and I liked it. It might fit in for a little firepower
interpretivechaos 01-28-07, 08:31 PM	You might enjoy combining the chameleon class (Races of Destiny) with The Master of the Masks. It is a similarly versatile class that lets you mimic other classes, including spells, combat, sneak attack, smite, turn undead etc. You might want Bard 5/ Master of the Masks 7/ Chameleon 8 (I would go as follows Bard 5/Chameleon 2/ MotM 1/ Chameleon 3-4/ MotM->7 and finish Chameleon) 7 levels in Master of the Masks give you the second tier mask abilities, Chameleon 8 gives you the rapid refocus where you can change your aptitude in 10 minute. If you trade the 7th level of Master of the mask for Chameleon 9 you get sixth level spells and an extra mimic of a class feature. You'll be very versatile, and you can use the chameleon levels and your bardic spelcasting to buff yourself, and then use the masks to rack on the bonuses. (A giant power boost comes if you drop 1 level of bard for cleric, and then get divine metamagic and persistant spell. That lets you keep your buffs on all day, which will put at least somewhere near the rest of the party.)
Kuroi Kenshi 01-28-07, 08:48 PM	...i plan for him to form a terrorist group to topple the empire, i'm thinking mexican masked wrestler inpired maks, or Mayan, day of the dead type masks.Just FYI, the classes you use, the names of the classes themselves, and your profession as a character are not inexorably bound to eachother. Semi-famous example, you can be a monk/paladin and be a samurai by profession, even though you have no classes with the name "samurai" in them. To be a terrorist leader that is obsessed with masks, you don't have to have any classes with the name "mask" in them.
Akiata 01-28-07, 09:05 PM	Not to be too much of a noob, but I wanted to see what folks thought of Dragon Disciple as an option for a melee oriented Bard build? As far as melee Bard PrC's I haven't found much that stands out as superior to Dragon Disciple. Cheers.
interpretivechaos 01-28-07, 09:23 PM	Holy Liberator 4 is a good combat prestige class, giving nice abilities, charisma to saves. Besides that, prestige classes that advance casting and give full BAB (Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom, Abjurant Champion, 1 level dips in Bladesinger, Spellsword, Dragon Slayer etc.) generally are the best bang for buck.
Kuroi Kenshi 01-28-07, 10:00 PM	Not to be too much of a noob, but I wanted to see what folks thought of Dragon Disciple as an option for a melee oriented Bard build? As far as melee Bard PrC's I haven't found much that stands out as superior to Dragon Disciple. Cheers.In core-only, Dragon Disciple isn't bad...in noncore, interpretivechaos's suggestions are good. I also think Sacred Exorcist, Harper Paragon, Jade Phoenix Mage, Master of Yuirwood, Master Harper, and Cyran Avenger can be used very effectively, depending on what other classes you use in your build. And of course a two-level dip in Sublime Chord at character levels 11 and 12. Soldier of Light also makes a good 2 level dip before taking Sublime Chord. I have a fair chunk of combat-bard builds in my personal archive of multi-role builds, which is in my sig.
Kurama Youko 01-29-07, 01:10 AM	Do you have the Dragon Compendium? Chose a nice Bloodline feat that best suits you. The feat Improved Toughness also comes to mind. The Fey heritage feats will definitely be a big boon, fey skin especially if you are going into melee.
foxylady 01-29-07, 11:22 AM	Your DM will probably blache when he realizes what you can do to a campaign setting with CL 26 divinations. How so? Most divinations are effective only if the target fails their save, which high CL doesn't improve. High CL also doesn't improve the quality or nature of information received.
imneuromancer 01-29-07, 12:09 PM	Personally, I think one of the most powerful characters in the world is the Bard 9/mindbender 1/Sublime Chord 10 Half-elf diplomancer with the racial substitution levels from Races of Destiny. Good saves for the most part, able to basically destroy any encounter with a creature with a mind, pretty good spells, lots of bardic abilities, lots of skill points... what's not to like? Add some feats that allow you to bardic music various things (like undead and such) and you are good to go. ONLY PROBLEM is that mindbender is "any non-good". If you don't mind being neutral, then there ya go. If you HAVE to be good, then skip mindbender and make sure you get a helm of telepathy, even if you have to make it yourself.
BigRobC101 01-29-07, 12:23 PM	if your looking for a face changing, ulimate terrorist id see if you DM will let you change to changeling (he was pretending to be a half elf :P) then its bard 5/fighter2/warshaper 2/chameleon 10/warshaper+2 so your terroirst is a bard, now his a paladin, how his a wizard, now his a barbarin with smite, hes very one and no one he'll meld into the crowd, not that i have seen this used to take down water deep in an FR campaign, no sir wasnt me :P
BigRobC101 01-29-07, 12:26 PM	also for combat bards, try warchanter, you get extra songs, like inspire legeion all allys BAB becomes your character level...... OH YEAH!
Yorath_theWolf 01-29-07, 12:57 PM	Personally, I think one of the most powerful characters in the world is the Bard 9/mindbender 1/Sublime Chord 10 Half-elf diplomancer with the racial substitution levels from Races of Destiny. Good saves for the most part, able to basically destroy any encounter with a creature with a mind, pretty good spells, lots of bardic abilities, lots of skill points... what's not to like? Add some feats that allow you to bardic music various things (like undead and such) and you are good to go. ONLY PROBLEM is that mindbender is "any non-good". If you don't mind being neutral, then there ya go. If you HAVE to be good, then skip mindbender and make sure you get a helm of telepathy, even if you have to make it yourself. ehhh personally I'd change that to Bard6/Mindbender1/Virtuoso2/Sublime Cord2/Virtuoso8. you get Sublime Cord's caster progression _&_ Arcane Song and you advance bardic music as well as get some more usefull bardic music from Virtuoso.
jstorrie 01-29-07, 12:59 PM	I've been partial to Bard 6 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 1 / Arcane Archer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Eldritch Knight 8 for a while. If you start with balanced stats, you're a fine archer in the low levels, and can do some ridiculous things in the high-levels if you pick your spells right (ranged AMF comes to mind.)
CantripN 01-29-07, 01:05 PM	Aye, sadly I've come to see that while Master if Masks is highly flavourful, it's simply no good beyond the first 2 levels... For the Bard: Go with Sublime Chord all the way.
imneuromancer 01-29-07, 01:47 PM	ehhh personally I'd change that to Bard6/Mindbender1/Virtuoso2/Sublime Cord2/Virtuoso8. you get Sublime Cord's caster progression _&_ Arcane Song and you advance bardic music as well as get some more usefull bardic music from Virtuoso. You can't get Sublime Chord until 11th level because of the 13 ranks in listen, etc. that you need as prereqs. I guess I should have stated that my build was the most basic yet effective buld you could get, with only one "dip" into a prestige class. The virtuoso idea is very good too, if he wants to go into it. The thing is, the only way to really make the diplomancer suck is if you a) change the rules or b) the GM makes everything a type that is resistant to any kind of mind-influencing abilities. Either way, it means that the player wins and the GM "loses" because the point was that the bard is weak and unplayable. Diplomancer 1/2 elf racial substitution levels for the win!
Cromag 01-29-07, 04:25 PM	another way to make a diplomancer lose is if the DM just ignores your social skills entirely. Beguiler: Bluff check 57 I know you don't trust the guy, but he's changed and is working to further your cause with all his heart DM: he doesn't believe you or in another game Bard: Can't we talk about this reasonably -diplomacy 38 DM: he ignores you
imneuromancer 01-29-07, 04:30 PM	another way to make a diplomancer lose is if the DM just ignores your social skills entirely. Beguiler: Bluff check 57 I know you don't trust the guy, but he's changed and is working to further your cause with all his heart DM: he doesn't believe you or in another game Bard: Can't we talk about this reasonably -diplomacy 38 DM: he ignores you Then that would be changing the rules of the game, and thus the original poster makes his point that the bard is good. If the bard has soothing voice, then it is a "power" of sorts that requires a save to avoid, so it is not so easy to just ignore. And if you did, then you would be cahnging the rules of the game.. etc. etc. Changing the rules like this would be like the GM saying, "Fighters suck." And then you make an ubercharger that does 1000+ HP on a consistent basis, so the GM outlaws hit points. So yeah, you could get around the diplomancer by simply changing the rules, but then the GM is essentially admitting that he is wrong.
eRaz0r 01-29-07, 04:58 PM	Then that would be changing the rules of the game, and thus the original poster makes his point that the bard is good. Changing the rules like this would be like the GM saying, "Fighters suck." And then you make an ubercharger that does 1000+ HP on a consistent basis, so the GM outlaws hit points. So yeah, you could get around the diplomancer by simply changing the rules, but then the GM is essentially admitting that he is wrong. Well, arguably this merely proves that D&D rules are eminently breakable. Breaking the game through diplomacy cheese doesn't prove the bard is good, but rather that diplomacy is broken. The Bard is Good, but if all he were good at were broken Diplomacy, he'd be bad - because no Sane DM uses the Diplomacy rules as written.
imneuromancer 01-30-07, 12:08 PM	Well, arguably this merely proves that D&D rules are eminently breakable. Breaking the game through diplomacy cheese doesn't prove the bard is good, but rather that diplomacy is broken. The Bard is Good, but if all he were good at were broken Diplomacy, he'd be bad - because no Sane DM uses the Diplomacy rules as written. Time Stop, Celerity, Peristent DMM, and a host of other spells are "eminently breakable". Should "any sane DM" drop them because they break the game? The point is that the other players and GM at the table think that bards suck. If you prove to them, again and again, that they don't suck by 1) using diplomacy 2) using soothing voice and 3) using suggestion and 4) buffing other players, then you have basically proven that bards are very useful. If you nerf all of their abilities, then yeah, they suck. However, if you are nerfing a bunch of abilities, then that means they are so freaking powerful that you had to nerf them. There is just no logical way out of the fact that if you play a bard correctly and optimize them, they are very, very powerful. OK, maybe not as powerful as a VERY high level Wiz/Sorc, Druid, or Cleric. However, they certainly stack up in their own right. Enough to silence the critics at least.
Mommy was an Orc 02-01-07, 10:56 AM	Well, if you want to do a combat build: You take spells such as Focusing Chant, Bladeweave, Harmonize, Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Invisibility(Swift), Haste, Master's Touch, etc... A lot of those spells really create a lot of synergy, especially as so many of them are Swift. Use a Longspear. Get Memento Magic from Races of the Dragon for more 1st level spells. The important thing is to sneak in buffs and then ask the DM to tell you when the party would have missed, but your +2 made the difference. Feats such as: 1: Power Attack, Improved Init 3: Combat Reflexes Round 1: Inspire Courage/Inspirational Boost Round 2: Bladeweave/Charge - daze Round 3: Focusing Chant/start skewering