Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imneuromancer 04-17-05, 09:48 PM	I am trying to help a friend (no really, it isn't me!) with a Living Greyhawk character. In other words, try to stick to the core material when posting (PHB, DMG, complete series SANS psionics, miniatures handbook, and some stuff from frostburn, etc.). 28 point build, and magic is pretty hard to come by reliably. Also, while the build has to be effective at high levels (i.e. 12-17), most of the play is going to be in the low to mid levels (4-12). So a junk character that gets tough at 20th level is not great. His GOAL is to be a high-mobility spellcaster that can tumble a lot, gets evasion, dish out ok damage, is OK at being a skill monkey, and can cast spells effectively. His original plan was a monk-like character, but we couldn't figure out a build that didn't nerf your spellcasting until higher levels. He is currently going for an Arcane Trickster build. OK at tumbling, gets evasion, but -3 on his spellcasting level (well, for number of spells... he is going to take practiced spellcaster to get the caster level number up to normal). However, I feel that this build doesn't really start going until higher levels, and until then you are stuck with a mediocre character. I was suggesting one of the following: Bard6/Divine OracleX This gives him a lot of the rogue-type skills, lots of knowledge skills, decent spellcasting with the added domain (etc.), evasion-type stuff, cast in armor, etc. -or- Bard 6/Divine Oracle 4/Sublime Chord X Same as Divine Oracle, except it adds more high-level spells and gets back to his more bardic-roots at higher levels. What does everyone think of this? Is it better to go with the AT or with one of my builds?? Is there a better build out there to meet the goals??
Mommy was an Orc 04-17-05, 11:14 PM	Divine Oracle isn't a great PrC for Bard - you do gain the extra domain, but you lose the main benefit of being a Bard - the bardic music advancement. I'm not sure how Daggerspell Mage falls into the 'limited' category in LG, but this is one of my favorite 'I'm a Rogue, but I cast spells eventually build' Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Spellsword 1/Arcane Trickster 4 +13 BAB, +7d6 Sneak, 15th level caster, pretty much able to ignore ASF from light armor. Lots of cool Daggerspell Mage abilities. Normally, that ?? would be Able Learner and I'd push back the Arcane Trickster levels. Build goes: Rogue 1: TWF, ?? Fighter 1: WF: Dagger Wizard 1: Practiced Spellcaster(makes you a 5th level caster) Rogue 2 Rogue 3 Daggerspell Mage 1-4 Spellsword 1 Arcane Trickster 1-2 Daggerspell Mage 5-10 Arcane Trickster 3-4
Michael Tree 04-18-05, 12:50 AM	The most important thing to realize about arcane tricksters is that they aren't spellcasters with rogue abilities, they're rogues with spellcasting. That is, if you try to play one like a primary spellcaster, you're destined for disappointment. But if you play one as a rogueish skill-monkey with a variety of spells, they can be fantastic. However, they really only start to shine around level 10.
Ivarrius 04-18-05, 12:54 AM	Daggerspell mage is the way to go. Very fun class to play. Though, admittedly, AT has ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak attack. Best course of action is, decide how you will play him, and go from there. The PrC's while similar, are going to make a completely different character.
Nazzareth 04-18-05, 04:05 AM	you could go both bard and arcane trickster, Rogue 3/bard 7 should make it.
jstorrie 04-18-05, 04:22 AM	I recommend going either Ftr 1 / Bard 7 / Sublime Chord 3 / Eldritch Knight xx or Bard 7 / Sublime Chord 3 / Virtuoso xx. I'm assuming Living Greyhawk has the whole 'no taking less than 3 levels of a prestige class' deal going on, but if not, only take one level of Sublime Chord. I wouldn't put too much stock in high-level spells. A LG character will be retired long before he starts throwing Gates around.
imneuromancer 04-18-05, 08:22 AM	jstorrie, how do i get sublime chord at 7th level? There is a prereq of 2 rank13 skills, which means level 10 at least. Also, in Living Greyhawk pretty much any really good PrC is "limited" which means you either have to "find" it (like a magic item, pretty much), or do a special mission to get it, if available. So it is not a 100% given that you can get into it. More like a 10%. Daggerspell Mage, which is what he WANTED to play in the first place, is limited. The amount of disappointment when he saw that was palpable. As to the Divine Oracle thing, if he takes a 4-level dip into it he will basically get the nice evasions/uncanny dodges, but will progress in spellcasting, too (which is nice). Is losing 4 levels of bardsong that bad? From what I see, that just means that he loses 4 uses of it a day, and some of the inspires (better competence and greatness). I figured that since bardic music was VERY secondary to spellcasting and getting evasion stuff, that it was a good tradeoff.
Mommy was an Orc 04-18-05, 10:26 AM	I'd go Rogue 3/Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Trickster 8 then. Straightforward, easy, and quite effective most levels. As to the Divine Oracle thing, if he takes a 4-level dip into it he will basically get the nice evasions/uncanny dodges, but will progress in spellcasting, too (which is nice). Is losing 4 levels of bardsong that bad? From what I see, that just means that he loses 4 uses of it a day, and some of the inspires (better competence and greatness). I figured that since bardic music was VERY secondary to spellcasting and getting evasion stuff, that it was a good tradeoff.