Post/Author/DateTime	Post
villianousmorality 10-01-05, 11:34 AM	With bards gaining proficiency in a whip with that nice fifteen foot reach, it seems to me that starting as a tripper from the beginning might be a nice touch. I mean with the spell progression as it is, it's going to be a while before any metamagic feats are worth a whole lot. Was thinking mainly lower levels, take perform in oratory or something, kind of like an evangelist. With a whip. So... human, first level take combat expertise and improved trip. Third level combat reflexes. Sixth level start taking things like extra music or lingering song maybe, quicken spell always seems good after that. Could be a nice little cohort for a primary caster. Any advice for someone wanting to pursue a tripping bard? Should I just take a look at the gattling chain tripper for ideas, or should this be more specifically thought out. I mean obviously a bard isn't going to be able to take all the feats a fighter 20 takes. Anyway, help me out with feat ideas.
ninjarabbit 10-01-05, 11:54 AM	The bestow curse spell would help
Origin 10-01-05, 12:00 PM	With bards gaining proficiency in a whip with that nice fifteen foot reach, it seems to me that starting as a tripper from the beginning might be a nice touch. I mean with the spell progression as it is, it's going to be a while before any metamagic feats are worth a whole lot. Was thinking mainly lower levels, take perform in oratory or something, kind of like an evangelist. With a whip. So... human, first level take combat expertise and improved trip. Third level combat reflexes. Sixth level start taking things like extra music or lingering song maybe, quicken spell always seems good after that. Could be a nice little cohort for a primary caster. Any advice for someone wanting to pursue a tripping bard? Should I just take a look at the gattling chain tripper for ideas, or should this be more specifically thought out. I mean obviously a bard isn't going to be able to take all the feats a fighter 20 takes. Anyway, help me out with feat ideas. Depends, just how many fighter types of any kind (archery, sling, sword, etc.) are in the group? The more the better a bard will be. Use the Whip of Blades or whatever it's called that does 1d6 lethal damage, and still has that 15' reach. Really is great, and just make sure to use songs that enhance your ability to fight (being a bard, your BAB won't be great, and your HP will kill you). I'd also suggest the 2 or 4 level dip in fighter, it'll help your BAB, get you some nice feats, and such. Level 1 Fighter: Combat Reflexes(Human feat), Combat Expertise (Level 1 feat), Improved Trip (Fighter 1 feat) Level 2 Fighter: Dodge (Fighter 2 feat) Level 3 Fighter: Mobility (Level 3 feat) Level 4 Fighter: Spring Attack (Fighter 4 feat) That'd be good build for tripping, just progress as a bard from then on (although staying fighter wouldn't be bad either)
fnord 10-01-05, 12:02 PM	It's a possibility, but you need a lot of strength to make tripping work, which, with a bard, means your looking at a degree of MAD. Also, whips don't threaten spaces, so you can't make AoO with them, which is one of the major advantages people like Snow's Gatling Tripper has.
catharz 10-01-05, 12:13 PM	It's a possibility, but you need a lot of strength to make tripping work, which, with a bard, means your looking at a degree of MAD. Also, whips don't threaten spaces, so you can't make AoO with them, which is one of the major advantages people like Snow's Gatling Tripper has. I should block you just so that I can't the the fnords... I mostly agree with you, although a Bard/Marshal using Motivate Tactics and using mithril medium armor could pull it off, as long as they relied on Improved Trip rather than AoOs.
Tedly224 10-01-05, 01:50 PM	People keep referring to the Whip Dagger as a method of getting some damage ability from the Bard being able to use a whip, but this is confusing for me. Whenever I see a new weapon that seems in line or of a simliar type to another weapon, does that mean you gain proficiency in it if you know how to use the similar type already? I'll give an example. Let's say a warrior knows how to use a spiked chain. In the Races of Eberron book, we find a very similar weapon that the Xin Drick Dark Elves use called a Scorpion Chain. Both weapons are listed as Exotic Weapons however, and when we look up the text involving Exotic Weapons, each one requires its own feat to use, it seems... So a Bard starts play proficient with the Exotic Weapon, Whip. That's great. But where in the 3.5 rules does it say that he'll be able to automatically know how to use a dagger whip because of it? I certainly couldn't find it. My advice for your trippin' bard is to just burn the feat at first level and get the Spiked chain proficiency. Keep a whip as a secondary weapon. And get the rest of your feats in the order that you want them.
Baudolino 10-01-05, 02:29 PM	If you don't see the fnords they can't eat you... As fnord pointed out lacking the ability to make AoOs with the whip is the biggest problem with that build. If you do really want to go in that direction, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack instead becomes your best friend, since this both gives you the mobility to always stay away from nasty AoOs that you will be incurring when using the whip and also allow you to move around the battlefield triping people in key combat situations. For that matter, dipping two levels in wolf totem barbarian could even work, since it'll give you Improved Trip, a 40' base speed, and if you're having trouble tripping something you can always rage for the bonus to strength. But I'm actually not really a big fan of dropping levels from bard unless you've got a very good reason, though it is something to keep in mind. The other problem with the bard tripper is that the opposed strength checks can really hurt you. It'd be great to trip that melee machine that's tying up your party's tanks, but can you actually succeed? Something to think about...
villianousmorality 10-01-05, 06:02 PM	Gee. Thanks, I never really thought about not threatenning a square with a whip. I thought about turning the bard into a bit more of a gish, but losing the caster levels looks painful. Maybe Jotunbrud, I think is the name of it instead of combat reflexes for another +4 to tripping. I'm not sure which book that's in though, just found it on another tripping thread would help to make up for the lack of base attack. I mean the difference between a 1/1 base attack and a 3/4 base attack isn't that big is it? The MAD does bother me a bit. I mean, really if I was going to play something really MAD it'd probably be a monk. Hm, I suppose first level combat expertise, improved trip, would let me get some use out of the whip for a couple levels until at third EWP spiked chain, and sixth get combat reflexes. True I'd not be quite as battlefield control oriented in the first few levels, but I could work with that by just performing to my heart's content. I dunno if that's something I should wait that long to get. So I'll pose another question, to dip or not to dip? First two levels in wolf totem barb, and I could start bard right after that, or maybe even one level of fighter for combat expertise, improved trip, EWP spiked chain. Less of a hit to the CL, still get some combat reflexes at 3rd.
El_Machinae 10-01-05, 06:48 PM	I'd actually stay away from Improved Trip because you'll have enough problem tripping that it won't help as much as you'd like. As well, the 'extra' attack is crap with a whip. The real fun with a tripping bard is to take TWF. That's right. TWF. You take a -4 penalty (but it's a touch attack) and you just use full attack to get two a round (even at low levels). Drop the whip if you fail, ehn, they're cheap. Just effectively trip using a number of trip attacks. You'll get lucky eventually, and your fighters'll like you.
Furdaddy 10-01-05, 07:10 PM	I can't believe they haven't come out with a feat that lets you use your Dex mod instead of Strength to trip. (Or, have I somehow missed it?) That would be perfect for this bard build to reduce the MAD. And, it makes sense, there are lots of martial arts and movie examples where little guys trip big guys with finesse rather than brute strength. Of course, it would also make the spiked chain, which is finessable, even more monstrously overpowered than it already is. Oh, well.
Tweedledope 10-01-05, 07:14 PM	I'm about to begin a gestalt campaign and I've decided to play a nice Bard build on one side (Bard 1-8/Virtuoso 1-2/Sublime Chord 1-2/Virtuoso 3-10) and I think I might go ahead and use the Bard's proficiency with a whip to my full extent by creating a Feat Rogue 20 build on the other side and focusing on trip and disarm with the whip... Also, with that...disarming someone with a whip. Since a whip attack is considered a ranged attack do I need the feat Improved Disarm or Ranged Disarm?
Aramas 10-01-05, 07:33 PM	This idea keeps popping up from time to time on the boards. Using a whip as a bard to trip and disarm people. While it sounds like a good idea, in practice it isn't very effective. I tried it myself in one campaign. It didn't work well at all. As a bard, if you want to trip or disarm someone, use the Grease spell. It's a wonderful wonderful spell that is often overlooked. There's no attack roll, no opposed Str check, just cast the spell and make them save.