Bard/Blackguard+? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard/Blackguard+? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Weiser_Cain
04-29-05, 01:56 AM I wanted to make a bard/blackguard which seemed fun and simple enough but I'd like to up my magical abilities. I thought of taking Mystic Theurge but would bard count as arcane or divine spellcasting? And would taking it be a waste after effective bard and blackguard caster levels max out (20 and 10).
Also is there a Prc that allows caster levels from two diffrent classes to stack or do they already? I'm ope to changin that last prc obiously.
Nuntius128
04-29-05, 02:21 AM Well, the most I can tell ya, with my knowledge is that Bard's are Arcane.
PhaedrusXY
04-29-05, 02:29 AM I wanted to make a bard/blackguard which seemed fun and simple enough but I'd like to up my magical abilities. I thought of taking Mystic Theurge but would bard count as arcane or divine spellcasting?Spells: A bard casts arcane spells And would taking it be a waste after effective bard and blackguard caster levels max out (20 and 10).Yes, unless you have some other caster level to apply it to. But there is no way you'll max out bard caster levels if you take blackguard levels (unless you go into Epic levels). Also is there a Prc that allows caster levels from two diffrent classes to stack or do they already?No, they certainly don't normally stack, and I don't know of a PrC that lets them stack. There are a couple of strange ones that use caster levels in other classes to calculate their own caster level, though. (Ur-Priest, Nar Demonbinder, and I think Sublime Chord are the ones I know off-hand). Sublime Chord also does a strange thing like advancing all other Arcane caster levels you have as well as it's own, or something weird like that.

I can't really think of a good way to build what you're talking about. You could just go Bard and then into Blackguard. They synergize semi-decently because they both depend on charisma. I don't know that I'd take any Mystic Theurge levels, though. I wouldn't take many, that's for sure. You'll lose too much Base Attack Bonus. Hopefully someone else will come along with better ideas than me. I'm guessing some kind of Sublime Chord build might work for this, but I don't own Complete Arcane, and so can't make one for you.
*R*
04-29-05, 02:30 AM I thought of taking Mystic Theurge but would bard count as arcane or divine spellcasting?
From the SRD:
Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.(emphasis mine)

And would taking it be a waste after effective bard and blackguard caster levels max out (20 and 10).
You're not going to run out of Bard caster levels by character level 20: Effective Bard Caster Level = Bard Levels + Mystic Theurge Levels.
EX: Bard 4/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 casts Bard spells like a (4 + 10) 14th level Bard.
After character level 20, you can go over Bard Caster Level 20, because you start using the Epic Bard progression.
As for Blackguard Caster Levels, yes, the Mystic Theurge advancement is wasted beyond Blackguard Caster Level 10 pre-Epic (Character Level less than 20).

Also is there a Prc that allows caster levels from two diffrent classes to stack or do they already? I'm ope to changin that last prc obiously.
Caster levels from different casting progressions are always tracked separately. There are a few exceptions in Prestige Classes like Ur-Priest and Apostle of Peace, but they only ever add other class Caster Levels to their own.

EDIT: I apparently type slower than PhaedrusXY :P
Weiser_Cain
04-29-05, 03:50 AM Thanks all of you. Am I right in thinking that a bard stops cold at sixth level spells and so can never qualify for the archmage class even at epic levels?
Gothic Rose
04-29-05, 04:08 AM If you have access to the Book of Vile Darkness, I have a suggestion for you.

Disciple of Asmodeus. It works well with Bard, and syngergizes with bard and blackguard.

I think DoA is a nifty class, though I never see it on the boards. It's all about manipulation, domination, and control.
deduke
04-29-05, 06:46 AM I looked at the disciple of Asmodeus in the BOVD but i think it is rather weak. Since you are already giving up spellcasting to go into Blackguard you could mix in some rogue lvl's (for trapfinding and evasion) and go for Disciple of Baalzebul
It has a real nice cha synergy, really good skills and sneak attack.

regards deDuke
*R*
04-29-05, 12:02 PM Thanks all of you. Am I right in thinking that a bard stops cold at sixth level spells and so can never qualify for the archmage class even at epic levels?
Right. No higher level Bard spells exist.
ninjarabbit
04-29-05, 01:57 PM I think a simple bard17/blackguard3 would be best. You have most of your bard abilities and spells and get the best parts of blackguard. You might want to take the battlecaster feat.

Another idea is to be a bard16/blackguard3/spellsword1, this'll get you up to 16 BAB and allow you to be a 17th bard for casting spells.
rilem
04-29-05, 03:46 PM I agree that a simple dip into Blackguard is best, but Bard17/Blackguard3 only gets you +15BAB.

Bard16/Blackguard4 gets you to +16 BAB and retains 6th level bard and 2nd level Blackguard spells, only with +1d6 sneak attack.

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Divine Might, Cleave, Song of the Heart, Haunting Melody, Subsonics, Extra Turning.

Snowflake Wardance or Arcane Strike would also be good to sub in for another feat, for a more martial approach.

I'm don't know the Sublime Chord Well either, but you could go:

Bard8/Blackguard2/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/EldritchKnight7
BAB +17, 9th level spells.

You'll need a 14 int (and be human) to get the skill ranks for S.C. in those two blackguard levels, I think.

This sacrifices Rebuke Undead and Inspire Greatness, but it still could be neat.
Khazra Reborn
04-29-05, 04:24 PM get a black guards blade from BoVD, +10 smite good damage never hurt anyone ;)
The Thing in the Night
04-29-05, 06:43 PM Try Bamboo Spirit Folk (OA) Brd7/Blk3/Arcane Hirophant7/(Arcane PrC)3. Better BaB, maxes out spellcasting as much as possible.
Weiser_Cain
04-29-05, 07:16 PM I'm more interested in class features than bab. I'd want to take at least five levels of blackguard so I can get that demon horse, leaving me fifteen leves of bard in a normal build.
The epic build is more simple(?), I was thinking 20 level of bard 10 levels of black guard and either go warlock or some evil spell casting class to get to seventh level spells for the archmage class.
rilem
04-29-05, 10:16 PM So you want a mounted bard blackguard archmage, because ... you like class features. Seems a bit of a mishmash, and really tight feat-wise. Just take leadership or summon a horse.

But ... Bard8/Blackguard5/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/EK3/Archmage1
Will do it, I think. Only 8th level spells, though

Feats required: Power Attack, Sunder, Cleave, Skill focus (spellcraft), Spell Focus (one school), spell focus (another school).

You should also read up on Warlock a bit — it doesn't give any spells, only caster level. You'll never qualify for Archmage with warlock. Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder (using blackguard) are really your only options. With a Bard/Blackguard base.
The Thing in the Night
05-02-05, 09:05 PM There's a feat in Dungeon 100 that gets you a nightmare as a fiendish servant, with no penalties to fiendish servant abilities (so by the time you get it, the nightmare has +2 HD right off the bat). It's well worth looking into.
PhaedrusXY
05-02-05, 09:08 PM Fallen Palladin1/Blackguard10 then take the minimal amount of bard to get into Sublime Chord. Then increase your caster levels of Sublime Chord, and go into Archmage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Weiser_Cain 04-29-05, 01:56 AM	I wanted to make a bard/blackguard which seemed fun and simple enough but I'd like to up my magical abilities. I thought of taking Mystic Theurge but would bard count as arcane or divine spellcasting? And would taking it be a waste after effective bard and blackguard caster levels max out (20 and 10). Also is there a Prc that allows caster levels from two diffrent classes to stack or do they already? I'm ope to changin that last prc obiously.
Nuntius128 04-29-05, 02:21 AM	Well, the most I can tell ya, with my knowledge is that Bard's are Arcane.
PhaedrusXY 04-29-05, 02:29 AM	I wanted to make a bard/blackguard which seemed fun and simple enough but I'd like to up my magical abilities. I thought of taking Mystic Theurge but would bard count as arcane or divine spellcasting?Spells: A bard casts arcane spells And would taking it be a waste after effective bard and blackguard caster levels max out (20 and 10).Yes, unless you have some other caster level to apply it to. But there is no way you'll max out bard caster levels if you take blackguard levels (unless you go into Epic levels). Also is there a Prc that allows caster levels from two diffrent classes to stack or do they already?No, they certainly don't normally stack, and I don't know of a PrC that lets them stack. There are a couple of strange ones that use caster levels in other classes to calculate their own caster level, though. (Ur-Priest, Nar Demonbinder, and I think Sublime Chord are the ones I know off-hand). Sublime Chord also does a strange thing like advancing all other Arcane caster levels you have as well as it's own, or something weird like that. I can't really think of a good way to build what you're talking about. You could just go Bard and then into Blackguard. They synergize semi-decently because they both depend on charisma. I don't know that I'd take any Mystic Theurge levels, though. I wouldn't take many, that's for sure. You'll lose too much Base Attack Bonus. Hopefully someone else will come along with better ideas than me. I'm guessing some kind of Sublime Chord build might work for this, but I don't own Complete Arcane, and so can't make one for you.
R 04-29-05, 02:30 AM	I thought of taking Mystic Theurge but would bard count as arcane or divine spellcasting? From the SRD: Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.(emphasis mine) And would taking it be a waste after effective bard and blackguard caster levels max out (20 and 10). You're not going to run out of Bard caster levels by character level 20: Effective Bard Caster Level = Bard Levels + Mystic Theurge Levels. EX: Bard 4/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 casts Bard spells like a (4 + 10) 14th level Bard. After character level 20, you can go over Bard Caster Level 20, because you start using the Epic Bard progression. As for Blackguard Caster Levels, yes, the Mystic Theurge advancement is wasted beyond Blackguard Caster Level 10 pre-Epic (Character Level less than 20). Also is there a Prc that allows caster levels from two diffrent classes to stack or do they already? I'm ope to changin that last prc obiously. Caster levels from different casting progressions are always tracked separately. There are a few exceptions in Prestige Classes like Ur-Priest and Apostle of Peace, but they only ever add other class Caster Levels to their own. EDIT: I apparently type slower than PhaedrusXY :P
Weiser_Cain 04-29-05, 03:50 AM	Thanks all of you. Am I right in thinking that a bard stops cold at sixth level spells and so can never qualify for the archmage class even at epic levels?
Gothic Rose 04-29-05, 04:08 AM	If you have access to the Book of Vile Darkness, I have a suggestion for you. Disciple of Asmodeus. It works well with Bard, and syngergizes with bard and blackguard. I think DoA is a nifty class, though I never see it on the boards. It's all about manipulation, domination, and control.
deduke 04-29-05, 06:46 AM	I looked at the disciple of Asmodeus in the BOVD but i think it is rather weak. Since you are already giving up spellcasting to go into Blackguard you could mix in some rogue lvl's (for trapfinding and evasion) and go for Disciple of Baalzebul It has a real nice cha synergy, really good skills and sneak attack. regards deDuke
R 04-29-05, 12:02 PM	Thanks all of you. Am I right in thinking that a bard stops cold at sixth level spells and so can never qualify for the archmage class even at epic levels? Right. No higher level Bard spells exist.
ninjarabbit 04-29-05, 01:57 PM	I think a simple bard17/blackguard3 would be best. You have most of your bard abilities and spells and get the best parts of blackguard. You might want to take the battlecaster feat. Another idea is to be a bard16/blackguard3/spellsword1, this'll get you up to 16 BAB and allow you to be a 17th bard for casting spells.
rilem 04-29-05, 03:46 PM	I agree that a simple dip into Blackguard is best, but Bard17/Blackguard3 only gets you +15BAB. Bard16/Blackguard4 gets you to +16 BAB and retains 6th level bard and 2nd level Blackguard spells, only with +1d6 sneak attack. Feats: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Divine Might, Cleave, Song of the Heart, Haunting Melody, Subsonics, Extra Turning. Snowflake Wardance or Arcane Strike would also be good to sub in for another feat, for a more martial approach. I'm don't know the Sublime Chord Well either, but you could go: Bard8/Blackguard2/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/EldritchKnight7 BAB +17, 9th level spells. You'll need a 14 int (and be human) to get the skill ranks for S.C. in those two blackguard levels, I think. This sacrifices Rebuke Undead and Inspire Greatness, but it still could be neat.
Khazra Reborn 04-29-05, 04:24 PM	get a black guards blade from BoVD, +10 smite good damage never hurt anyone ;)
The Thing in the Night 04-29-05, 06:43 PM	Try Bamboo Spirit Folk (OA) Brd7/Blk3/Arcane Hirophant7/(Arcane PrC)3. Better BaB, maxes out spellcasting as much as possible.
Weiser_Cain 04-29-05, 07:16 PM	I'm more interested in class features than bab. I'd want to take at least five levels of blackguard so I can get that demon horse, leaving me fifteen leves of bard in a normal build. The epic build is more simple(?), I was thinking 20 level of bard 10 levels of black guard and either go warlock or some evil spell casting class to get to seventh level spells for the archmage class.
rilem 04-29-05, 10:16 PM	So you want a mounted bard blackguard archmage, because ... you like class features. Seems a bit of a mishmash, and really tight feat-wise. Just take leadership or summon a horse. But ... Bard8/Blackguard5/SublimeChord2/Spellsword1/EK3/Archmage1 Will do it, I think. Only 8th level spells, though Feats required: Power Attack, Sunder, Cleave, Skill focus (spellcraft), Spell Focus (one school), spell focus (another school). You should also read up on Warlock a bit — it doesn't give any spells, only caster level. You'll never qualify for Archmage with warlock. Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder (using blackguard) are really your only options. With a Bard/Blackguard base.
The Thing in the Night 05-02-05, 09:05 PM	There's a feat in Dungeon 100 that gets you a nightmare as a fiendish servant, with no penalties to fiendish servant abilities (so by the time you get it, the nightmare has +2 HD right off the bat). It's well worth looking into.
PhaedrusXY 05-02-05, 09:08 PM	Fallen Palladin1/Blackguard10 then take the minimal amount of bard to get into Sublime Chord. Then increase your caster levels of Sublime Chord, and go into Archmage.