Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blas de Lezo 10-28-05, 06:02 AM	I really like the idea of a bard capable of melee. I don't see him with 2handed weapons,but with light, quick ones (IE: rapier with weapon finesse). I wouldn't like to drop 6th level magic, so here it goes: is a half-elf bard X /bladesinger X any good? Or just it would be just better a human bard with 3 levels in swashbuckler? Whatever would be, I know Arcane Strike is a must. I've searched in the multiple bard's threads, but there is little about bards with rapiers. What about Half elf Bard 13/Swasbuckler 3/Bladesinger 4. So, what do you think, do you have any good bard-rapier build there? (I've have no stats, core and completes allowed)
Dain 10-28-05, 09:40 AM	Bard bladesingers are only good if you use the Races of Faerun Bladesinger. Half-elf Bard 2/Fighter 4/RoF Bladesinger 10/Dragon Disciple 4 is an excellent build. *Very* powerful from level 12 and on. If you MUST use the BS from CW, then go something like Bard 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 4. It's not even near a power build, but it's the best you can do with Bard + CW Bladesinger. By the way: You're screwing yourself by adding 3 levels of Swashbuckler en any bard build. Those 3 levels does NOT make the bard suck less in melee combat. A pure bard with a rapier is much better - although he will be singing and casting spells instead of actually using that rapier. All Melee bard builds use 2 levels of the cheese class Soldier of Light to add Cha to damage via Divine Might. Bard 16/SoL 2/Spellsword 1/Fighter 1 is an acceptable melee build, while not immensely powerful at all.
Sang-Drax 10-28-05, 09:51 AM	Bard bladesingers are only good if you use the Races of Faerun Bladesinger. Exactly. Otherwise, don't do this... there are other ways of making a powerful character out of this concept. Bard 7/Fighter 2/Champion of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 6 is probably your best bet: excellent casting (8th level spells, I think), bardic stuff, Dex to damage. You could also go plain Bard 8/Fighter 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8 with Snowflake Wardance and Divine Might for Cha to hit/dmg and full SC casting.
Dain 10-28-05, 10:01 AM	Exactly. Otherwise, don't do this... there are other ways of making a powerful character out of this concept. Bard 7/Fighter 2/Champion of Corellon 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 6 is probably your best bet: excellent casting (8th level spells, I think), bardic stuff, Dex to damage. You could also go plain Bard 8/Fighter 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 8 with Snowflake Wardance and Divine Might for Cha to hit/dmg and full SC casting. While it might be legal by the books, not all DMs let other Prestige Classes advance Sublime Chord casting (and with good reason, IMO). Also, these builds are kind of weak until the higher levels.
Blas de Lezo 10-28-05, 11:28 AM	Where are Soldier of Light and Champion of Corellon from?
rilem 10-28-05, 11:56 AM	Deities and Demigods and Races of the Wild, respectively. SoL has some red-flag issues, as it's mechanically unbalanced vs. the Blackguard and other Paladin-type PrCs. Cha to Saves/Undead Turning in two levels is too good, though legal by the books. Bard16/Paladin4 is a perfectly valid choice, using Devoted Performer Feat from Complete Adventurer. 20 levels of bardic music/smite evil damage, 6th level spells, CHA to saves/damage/to hit (with Divine Might/Snowflake Wardance)
Halbarad 10-28-05, 12:29 PM	I'm going to delurk to offer a build for thought: Half-Elf (using bard substitution levels at 1 and 8): Bard 8/Swashbuckler 3/Arcane Duelist 2/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 5 Pros: +16 BAB, 7th level spells, averages over 4 skill points per level, +cha to AC (all day long), +int to damage (all day long), and plenty of open feats to take the elusive target/spring attack line, as well as versatile performer, practiced spellcaster, and disguise spell. Cons: no divine feats, lower spell-casting than other SC gishes, lower BAB than some more optimal gishes, not very good hp (mostly d6). While this isn't an optimal "melee bard" build, this fits well with the character that you describe (i.e. the swashbuckling bard). You have freedom to get the mobility type feats, skill points for diplomacy skills and tumble, and no religious attachments. While the swashbuckler levels aren't optimal, they do add the combination of BAB, hp, and skill ranks in addition to the free feat (weapon finesse). Also, as a comment, I don't think Snowflake Warsong works with the rapier.
Blas de Lezo 10-28-05, 01:38 PM	Hum, very interesting these builds, thanks you all! :) By the way, what about a bard with this feats (same concept): Human 1. Doge, Combat Expertise 3. Weapon Finesse 6. Defensive Strike (don't remember exact name, it's from CW: if you do a total defense maneuver and your opponent doesn't hit you, you attack him at +4 next round) 9. free 12. free 15. free 18. free Tumble at least 5 ranks. (+6 to AC when doing total defense) So, if our bard uses the total defense maneuver, adding dodge (+1), combat expertise at full (+5), and total defense (+6 with Tumble) for a total AC of 22+armor+shield. For example, a 7th level bard with, let's say, a buckler +1, chain shirt +1, a rapier, and a Dex of 16 would have a AC of 32 on total defense. It will easily dodge any attack from a single opponent, and next round will attack him at +4 (so he still can fight with some points invested into combat expertise). Is this tactic any good? (I'm not used to melee, as I usually play wizards, so thanks a lot for the help).
rilem 10-28-05, 01:55 PM	I'm not wild about the Total-Defense option you propose. For one thing, it's illegal. From the SRD: You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). But it's more than that. Over two rounds, you're giving your enemy two chances attacks to hit you (at a reduced chance) in exchange for a better chance to hit him once. Bards have neither the HP or the AC (even with the Total Defense boost) to stand around doing nothing while a monster swings at them. You should be looking to drop your opponent as soon as possible. I'd take Song of the Heart (Eberron) to boost your Inspire Courage ability. Weapon Finesse is fine if you have a poor strength and aren't taking Snowflake Wardance — as noted it only works with Slashing weapons. I would probably argue instead to keep your Str. and Dex close and use a Longsword instead.
Sang-Drax 10-28-05, 03:22 PM	While it might be legal by the books, not all DMs let other Prestige Classes advance Sublime Chord casting (and with good reason, IMO). Also, these builds are kind of weak until the higher levels. If there is no source to support the prohibition whatsoever, I fail to see your point. This is the CO Board after all, and we work with what's legal, not with what some DMs may find too powerful. I don't think that many DMs house rule that way - in fact, it's the first time I see this among these boards. Yes, the builds are weak at lower levels (and, thus, a good reason for DMs to allow this character shine at higher levels by doing something perfectly legal), but no weaker than the average bard, which sucks. You start as a party supporter and then you start kicking ass. On the other hand, your Bard 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 4 pretty much sucks throughout levels 1-20. Take a look: somewhat better BAB, better hps, fewer feats (because of BS's requirements) than the average Bard/SC Gish, incredibly low damage output (using only a longsword), and ridiculous spells (Bardic level 13th by level 20! Hell, that's weak even for a sorcerer). Champion of Corellon 2 is an incredible source of melee power for any dexterous character. 2 levels won't hurt your spellcasting that much, specially if you Sublime Chord.
Lorimo the Disbeliever 10-28-05, 04:20 PM	Pal 4/Bard 16 (or Fullbab bard PrC, like warchanter) Divine Might[CD] + Snowflake Wardance[FB] + Boots of Battledancing[DMG2]
mellowship 10-28-05, 08:08 PM	I really like the idea of a bard capable of melee. I don't see him with 2handed weapons,but with light, quick ones (IE: rapier with weapon finesse). I wouldn't like to drop 6th level magic, so here it goes: is a half-elf bard X /bladesinger X any good? Not really, and especially not if you want 6th level bard spells. It might be worth a one-level dip if you're using most of the prereq feats for other classes, but even that's pushing it. Or just it would be just better a human bard with 3 levels in swashbuckler? Whatever would be, I know Arcane Strike is a must. I've searched in the multiple bard's threads, but there is little about bards with rapiers. What about Half elf Bard 13/Swasbuckler 3/Bladesinger 4. That gets you 5th level spells (caster level 15), +17 BAB, Int to AC and damage, and the ability to quicken one of your 2nd level spells. The problem with this build is that you need high stats in both Int (for AC and damage) and Cha (for spellcasting), in addition to your physical stats. The only stat you can really dump is Wis. So, what do you think, do you have any good bard-rapier build there? (I've have no stats, core and completes allowed) If you have access to Frostburn, I'd recommend not going with a rapier at all, because you can't use a rapier with Snowflake Wardance. However, assuming you have only core and completes, here's one way to make a half-elf fighting bard. Allocate stats in the order Cha, Int, Con, Dex, Str, Wis. If you're on a 32-point buy, maybe have Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 15 to start with. Put all level-up points into Cha. If you're on less than 32 points, don't bother with this build. The MAD is just too extreme. Bard 4/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Spellsword 5/Bladesinger 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 3. This build gets you +17 BAB, 7th level Sublime Chord spells (effective caster level 16), pretty good saves all around, Int to AC, and Int and Cha to damage. All in all, though, I'd say the Swashbuckler and Bladesinger levels aren't really worth it. Bladesinger costs you feats to boost your AC maybe 2 to 5 points (depending on how good a Headband of Intellect you can get ahold of), while Swashbuckler costs you caster levels to boost your damage by the same amount. Plus the MAD problem of having to pump both Int and Cha.
Dain 10-31-05, 05:14 AM	If there is no source to support the prohibition whatsoever, I fail to see your point. This is the CO Board after all, and we work with what's legal, not with what some DMs may find too powerful. I don't think that many DMs house rule that way - in fact, it's the first time I see this among these boards. Fair enough, though I know several DM's who do rule this way. It's all good. Yes, the builds are weak at lower levels (and, thus, a good reason for DMs to allow this character shine at higher levels by doing something perfectly legal), but no weaker than the average bard, which sucks. You start as a party supporter and then you start kicking ass. On the other hand, your Bard 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 4 pretty much sucks throughout levels 1-20. Take a look: somewhat better BAB, better hps, fewer feats (because of BS's requirements) than the average Bard/SC Gish, incredibly low damage output (using only a longsword), and ridiculous spells (Bardic level 13th by level 20! Hell, that's weak even for a sorcerer). That's a *very* unfair comparison! I am very well aware that the build was weak - I even wrote that "it's not even near a powerbuild", didn't I? But it was what the original poster was looking for - a bard/bladesinger. Which your build wasn't. And I maintain that it's near the best you can do if you want to combine the bard with 10 levels of the CW Bladesinger. If you're going to compare power, at least compare with the build that I explicitly said was powerful; the Half-elf Bard 2/Fighter 4/RoF Bladesinger 10/Dragon Disciple 4.
X-Codes 10-31-05, 05:59 AM	If you're going to compare power, at least compare with the build that I explicitly said was powerful; the Half-elf Bard 2/Fighter 4/RoF Bladesinger 10/Dragon Disciple 4. Oh yes, RoF Bladesinger is VERY VERY powerful. Thats why we got the watered-down 3.5 version. If only Rage Mage had full BAB then I would absolutely love that class, but even now it kicks CW Bladesinger's butt into last week tuesday. And finally, stop it with all the hatin' on the bards! A level 8 Bard can bluff an ancient Dragon into flying away long enough to loot his hoard and then dissappear into humanity so throughly as to never be found by said dragon again. Seriously, if you see the skill record builds almost all of them involve Bard levels. Also, with a Bow of Songs (or something of similar make as a rapier) they add tons of damage to their attack and damage rolls. They can also pick up Words of Creation and throw around HUGE bonuses to hit and damage and then UMD a scroll to Heal themselves should they get beat up too badly. Someone who thinks bards suck has never played them right.
Dain 10-31-05, 07:30 AM	Oh yes, RoF Bladesinger is VERY VERY powerful. Thats why we got the watered-down 3.5 version. Aye. Only they overdid the watering down. I want yet another version! This one isn't good enough! Bladesingers are supposed to be powerful, for crying out loud! They always were until the BS in CW (BS understood in more than one way). If only Rage Mage had full BAB then I would absolutely love that class, but even now it kicks CW Bladesinger's butt into last week tuesday. And finally, stop it with all the hatin' on the bards! A level 8 Bard can bluff an ancient Dragon into flying away long enough to loot his hoard and then dissappear into humanity so throughly as to never be found by said dragon again. Seriously, if you see the skill record builds almost all of them involve Bard levels. Also, with a Bow of Songs (or something of similar make as a rapier) they add tons of damage to their attack and damage rolls. They can also pick up Words of Creation and throw around HUGE bonuses to hit and damage and then UMD a scroll to Heal themselves should they get beat up too badly. Someone who thinks bards suck has never played them right. I agree. Bard 20 is a perfectly valid build.
UMiskatonic 10-31-05, 08:05 AM	Bard/arcane duellist might be a better fit than bard/bladesinger for the character you want. It can be found on the wizards' site.
Sang-Drax 10-31-05, 09:09 AM	That's a *very* unfair comparison! I am very well aware that the build was weak - I even wrote that "it's not even near a powerbuild", didn't I? But it was what the original poster was looking for - a bard/bladesinger. Which your build wasn't. And I maintain that it's near the best you can do if you want to combine the bard with 10 levels of the CW Bladesinger. If you're going to compare power, at least compare with the build that I explicitly said was powerful; the Half-elf Bard 2/Fighter 4/RoF Bladesinger 10/Dragon Disciple 4. granted. I really like RoF Bladesinger, but I don't think it's overpowered at all! I'd still rather play an ordinary Gish for sheer power... I never understood why did they have to nerf it so badly in 3.5. Someone who thinks bards suck has never played them right. A Bard is party-buffer. It's quite powerful for the party as a whole, but, otherwise, they suck. They're not that good in spells other than enchantment magic, and utterly suck in melee, unless you pick certain PrCs that deviate completely from the Bardic flavor, or, at least, focuses on only one aspect (such as Sublime Chord or Seeker of the Song). Hell, one of the most powerful Gishes uses Bard as base class... there are quite some good stuff available to bards, but most of them at high levels. Otherwise, I think they don't suck as much as they're boring to play... I don't like enchantment magic at all, and a singer that only buffs and does nothing else is not quite the concept I like. If a bard wasn't a singer, maybe I'd like it a bit more. Besides, the bard should be a jack-of-all-trades, but, in the end, he can't even hold his own in melee. No class depends more on the rest of the party than a bard. Of course, you might add that Snowflake Wardance + Divine Might + Words of Creation is awesome, but, you see, the bard is completely dependent on those feats... they suck hard without access to BoED - which is not that as common a book as is the Completes, for instance. To prove my point, it's not for coincidence that Elan is the most useless member of the Order of the Stick :P