bard/fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

bard/fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CanarTruesilver
11-20-03, 10:55 AM I am playing a 3.5 ed bard/fighter combo. I am going for deulist (I am currently 5/5) She is an elf btw

feats I have that I can think of right now:

Two weapon style (it is in her style...I know it is not a real combat bonus)

mobility
weapon focus rapier
improved crit rapier
weapon specialization rapier
combat casting
concentration

I'd like thoughts on future feats and whether or not the deulist would suit her..

Her stats:

Str:18
dex:17
con:18
Wis 15
int 17
cha 17

(good stats..hard campaign)
CanarTruesilver
11-20-03, 01:10 PM bump...I need some hints, as the builds mentioned here do not work as I am already 5/5...:(

looking forward to some responses.

thanks.
Dr Durothil
11-20-03, 02:22 PM I don't think it'd fit your character concept very well, but from a min-max point of view, I suggest that you take a look at the Ninja class. It is given freely online, on the Legend of the Five Rings website, I'll post the URL later.

This class has the sneak attack of a rogue, the BAB of a fighter, and d10 HDs. All of that is excellent for you, especially the sneak attack damage, which is applied on every hit, if you flank (it is nice to have when you have TWF, because of the sheer number of attacks that you can do).

Cool abilities:
- at 4th level, you get to add your Int modifier to your initiative (in addition to your Dex)
- at 8th level, you get a speed bonus equal to 5ft per points of Con modifier

EDIT: Here's the URL:
http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf
Boondoggle
11-20-03, 07:20 PM About the only way to salvage this character would be taking Bladesinger PrC. Be sure to use the web enhancement or the copy in Races of Faerun.

Oh, and have a little patience. Bumping after 2 hours is a bit excessive.
Araciel
11-20-03, 07:30 PM take duelist, bladesinger, and monk, all at least one level...

this way, your AC goes through the roof!

or...from a non-powergame POV (hahah), since you've already beggared your spellcasting ablities by multiclassing, AND taking bard levels, take lots of fighter levels with focus on speedy feats...AoO feats too....imp. disarm, expertise, imp. trip....stuff like that
goblinhero
11-20-03, 07:30 PM a two weapon stylist isn't your typical duelist. I don't see Two Weapon Fighting in your feat selection so you must be taking mad penalties to attack, which is not very wise.
to take advantage of the Duelist PrC, you're eventually goign to have to go down to using one Rapier, plus if you're set on Duelist, you need Weapon Finesse as well, which you can fit in.
by my count, you should have 4 general feats and 3 fighter bonus feats available, you listed 6 total feats (although I'm baffled by Concentration? mibby skill focus Concentration?).

personally, I'd look for a different PrC to take, given that you obviously want to dual wield rapiers.
if you can change your feats around, I'd take a look at Tempest. with the off hand parry nerf, I believe this PrC has some viability in 3.5 (except for the whole Spring Attack requirement)
if you're willing to give up one rapier, Duelist is an option, and so is the Bladesinger
catharz
11-20-03, 07:41 PM I think that a Duelist/Arcane duelist combo could work out great. Combat casting is not worth it with an Int as high as you have, and "concentration" is not a feat. Improved critical may or may not be worth it, as it dosen't stack with Keen. I would definately take Expertise, and possibly Improved expertise and Power attack. You could then use Dexterous strike to effectively choose your AC, attack bonus, and damage to fit any situation. You might also wish to consider some levels of Dragon disciple, if it fits your character concept.

Please not that what I am describing is not a fully optimized character, but with stats like you have I don't think it is horribly weak, and seems in character as well. I'm not sure what exact build I would advocate, but Bard 4/Fighter 2 seems like a good starting place. From there you could go Dragon disciple or some more Bard, and then Duelist and Arcane Duelist to your hearts content. Two levels of Ranger would be almost a neccesity if you want TWF. The one thing I would caution against is loosing more than 4 points of BAB before level 20.

Another option for a similarly roleplayed character could be a Holy liberator/Arcane duelist, gaining charisma to Saves and AC, as well as some other very nice abilities. Then again, with stats like you have, that shoulden't really be an issue.
balefire42
11-20-03, 09:47 PM Just a note, I would suggest shooting for bard8/fighter6 before you head into a prestige class. unfortunately, you won't be able to take all ten levels of a prestige class, but leaving bard at level 5 is a baad idea, and you mind as well take one more level in fighter for the feat.
CanarTruesilver
11-21-03, 11:25 AM Some background on my character (Sorry should have given this to start)

She loves magic, and casting it, but expresses herself best through song. She makes her own instruments and creates her own songs. She has two weapon style (forgot this before) and fights with much gusto. I choose rapier bc of the crit range as well as that was what was needed to become a duelist.

What fits with my character concept is more BaB, and more magic. Being a bard is central to her identity. She loves the magic side of her abilities, and spell singing is something that sounds GREAT!

some suggestions from here would be nice...

thanks in advance! I appreciate the help
Dr Durothil
11-21-03, 08:00 PM Originally posted by CanarTruesilver
Being a bard is central to her identity. She loves the magic side of her abilities, and spell singing is something that sounds GREAT!
Then check out the Spellsinger PrC from Races of Faerūn. It continues to improve you bardic music and spells, and gives you a few abilities. Though the BAB is not that great (I think it's a 0,5 BAB), 1 or 2 levels of it would not hamper you that much, and it'd fit your character concept, and it would give you a few extra abilities, as well as +2 Reflex and +2 Will (1 level dips make you nearly invincible, save bonuses add up so fast!).
Arkenian
11-21-03, 09:20 PM The new Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice for an elven bard/Fighter
catharz
11-21-03, 10:10 PM Originally posted by Arkenian
The new Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice for an elven bard/Fighter :drool:
Any chance you could tell us why the New Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice? I mean, I'm not asking for copyright infringement, just an idea of the changes :bigeyes:
Balthanon
11-21-03, 11:30 PM Spell Singer requires two general feats that the character doesn't have, so it's not really an option immediately. Bladesinger and Arcane Duelist on the other hand are both possibilities. I'm guessing the character has the perform, tumble, and (in the case of Bladesinger) concentration skills required, so all that's left are the feats. In the case of Arcane Duelist, you already meet the requirements for the class--and for Bladesinger a level of Bard (or Arcane Duelist) and then one of Fighter should take care of the feats she doesn't currently have (Expertise and Still Spell.)

Both of these classes would be worthwhile, but the Bladesinger doesn't actually go with two-weapon fighting concept very well, as it requires an empty hand for most of the abilities to work. The interesting thing about both these classes is actually that the bonuses they gain to AC aren't lost when you're in armor though (light armor anyway for the bladesinger) which I think makes them far superior to the duelist, if harder to enter into for Bladesinger.

I would probably go Arcane Duelist 2/Fighter 1/Bard 1/Arcane Duelist 2 from the position you're in (I would suggest Bard 3/Fighter 1, but you'll end up with an XP penalty). That will put you at 16th level with a total loss of 4 base attack throughout all your classes. That means you can decide whether you want to focus on continuing your bardic spellcasting career (in which case Spell Singer is probably your best bet) or entering a class with full base attack bonus so you receive 4 attacks before entering epic levels. Warrior Skald isn't a bad option for that. (Alternatively, adding a level of bard and fighter instead of Arcane Duelist will let you enter into another medium base attack class like Spell Singer and still gain 4 attacks by epic.)

Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/re/re20030224a) in case you're not aware of its location.
Impeesa
11-22-03, 01:20 AM Old-style Dragon Disciple would have been a good one, particularly if your DM allowed the enlargement stat bonuses as many people suggested. Too bad they hosed its one cool ability.
:(

--Impeesa--
goblinhero
11-22-03, 01:47 AM The new Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice for an elven bard/Fighter Any chance you could tell us why the New Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice? I mean, I'm not asking for copyright infringement, just an idea of the changes
eh? is there a new new bladesinger? like in complete warrior?
or is this new bladesinger the one presented in RoF? :confused:
catharz
11-22-03, 02:10 AM From what I've hear'd, there is.

If they made it Charisma-based, I will eat my hat.
goblinhero
11-22-03, 03:42 AM Originally posted by catharz
From what I've hear'd, there is.

If they made it Charisma-based, I will eat my hat.
wonder what the designers think is wrong with the RoF version. I'm fairly fond of that PrC as is.
maybe its a Bladesinger clone with a different name.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CanarTruesilver 11-20-03, 10:55 AM	I am playing a 3.5 ed bard/fighter combo. I am going for deulist (I am currently 5/5) She is an elf btw feats I have that I can think of right now: Two weapon style (it is in her style...I know it is not a real combat bonus) mobility weapon focus rapier improved crit rapier weapon specialization rapier combat casting concentration I'd like thoughts on future feats and whether or not the deulist would suit her.. Her stats: Str:18 dex:17 con:18 Wis 15 int 17 cha 17 (good stats..hard campaign)
CanarTruesilver 11-20-03, 01:10 PM	bump...I need some hints, as the builds mentioned here do not work as I am already 5/5...:( looking forward to some responses. thanks.
Dr Durothil 11-20-03, 02:22 PM	I don't think it'd fit your character concept very well, but from a min-max point of view, I suggest that you take a look at the Ninja class. It is given freely online, on the Legend of the Five Rings website, I'll post the URL later. This class has the sneak attack of a rogue, the BAB of a fighter, and d10 HDs. All of that is excellent for you, especially the sneak attack damage, which is applied on every hit, if you flank (it is nice to have when you have TWF, because of the sheer number of attacks that you can do). Cool abilities: - at 4th level, you get to add your Int modifier to your initiative (in addition to your Dex) - at 8th level, you get a speed bonus equal to 5ft per points of Con modifier EDIT: Here's the URL: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf
Boondoggle 11-20-03, 07:20 PM	About the only way to salvage this character would be taking Bladesinger PrC. Be sure to use the web enhancement or the copy in Races of Faerun. Oh, and have a little patience. Bumping after 2 hours is a bit excessive.
Araciel 11-20-03, 07:30 PM	take duelist, bladesinger, and monk, all at least one level... this way, your AC goes through the roof! or...from a non-powergame POV (hahah), since you've already beggared your spellcasting ablities by multiclassing, AND taking bard levels, take lots of fighter levels with focus on speedy feats...AoO feats too....imp. disarm, expertise, imp. trip....stuff like that
goblinhero 11-20-03, 07:30 PM	a two weapon stylist isn't your typical duelist. I don't see Two Weapon Fighting in your feat selection so you must be taking mad penalties to attack, which is not very wise. to take advantage of the Duelist PrC, you're eventually goign to have to go down to using one Rapier, plus if you're set on Duelist, you need Weapon Finesse as well, which you can fit in. by my count, you should have 4 general feats and 3 fighter bonus feats available, you listed 6 total feats (although I'm baffled by Concentration? mibby skill focus Concentration?). personally, I'd look for a different PrC to take, given that you obviously want to dual wield rapiers. if you can change your feats around, I'd take a look at Tempest. with the off hand parry nerf, I believe this PrC has some viability in 3.5 (except for the whole Spring Attack requirement) if you're willing to give up one rapier, Duelist is an option, and so is the Bladesinger
catharz 11-20-03, 07:41 PM	I think that a Duelist/Arcane duelist combo could work out great. Combat casting is not worth it with an Int as high as you have, and "concentration" is not a feat. Improved critical may or may not be worth it, as it dosen't stack with Keen. I would definately take Expertise, and possibly Improved expertise and Power attack. You could then use Dexterous strike to effectively choose your AC, attack bonus, and damage to fit any situation. You might also wish to consider some levels of Dragon disciple, if it fits your character concept. Please not that what I am describing is not a fully optimized character, but with stats like you have I don't think it is horribly weak, and seems in character as well. I'm not sure what exact build I would advocate, but Bard 4/Fighter 2 seems like a good starting place. From there you could go Dragon disciple or some more Bard, and then Duelist and Arcane Duelist to your hearts content. Two levels of Ranger would be almost a neccesity if you want TWF. The one thing I would caution against is loosing more than 4 points of BAB before level 20. Another option for a similarly roleplayed character could be a Holy liberator/Arcane duelist, gaining charisma to Saves and AC, as well as some other very nice abilities. Then again, with stats like you have, that shoulden't really be an issue.
balefire42 11-20-03, 09:47 PM	Just a note, I would suggest shooting for bard8/fighter6 before you head into a prestige class. unfortunately, you won't be able to take all ten levels of a prestige class, but leaving bard at level 5 is a baad idea, and you mind as well take one more level in fighter for the feat.
CanarTruesilver 11-21-03, 11:25 AM	Some background on my character (Sorry should have given this to start) She loves magic, and casting it, but expresses herself best through song. She makes her own instruments and creates her own songs. She has two weapon style (forgot this before) and fights with much gusto. I choose rapier bc of the crit range as well as that was what was needed to become a duelist. What fits with my character concept is more BaB, and more magic. Being a bard is central to her identity. She loves the magic side of her abilities, and spell singing is something that sounds GREAT! some suggestions from here would be nice... thanks in advance! I appreciate the help
Dr Durothil 11-21-03, 08:00 PM	Originally posted by CanarTruesilver Being a bard is central to her identity. She loves the magic side of her abilities, and spell singing is something that sounds GREAT! Then check out the Spellsinger PrC from Races of Faerūn. It continues to improve you bardic music and spells, and gives you a few abilities. Though the BAB is not that great (I think it's a 0,5 BAB), 1 or 2 levels of it would not hamper you that much, and it'd fit your character concept, and it would give you a few extra abilities, as well as +2 Reflex and +2 Will (1 level dips make you nearly invincible, save bonuses add up so fast!).
Arkenian 11-21-03, 09:20 PM	The new Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice for an elven bard/Fighter
catharz 11-21-03, 10:10 PM	Originally posted by Arkenian The new Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice for an elven bard/Fighter :drool: Any chance you could tell us why the New Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice? I mean, I'm not asking for copyright infringement, just an idea of the changes :bigeyes:
Balthanon 11-21-03, 11:30 PM	Spell Singer requires two general feats that the character doesn't have, so it's not really an option immediately. Bladesinger and Arcane Duelist on the other hand are both possibilities. I'm guessing the character has the perform, tumble, and (in the case of Bladesinger) concentration skills required, so all that's left are the feats. In the case of Arcane Duelist, you already meet the requirements for the class--and for Bladesinger a level of Bard (or Arcane Duelist) and then one of Fighter should take care of the feats she doesn't currently have (Expertise and Still Spell.) Both of these classes would be worthwhile, but the Bladesinger doesn't actually go with two-weapon fighting concept very well, as it requires an empty hand for most of the abilities to work. The interesting thing about both these classes is actually that the bonuses they gain to AC aren't lost when you're in armor though (light armor anyway for the bladesinger) which I think makes them far superior to the duelist, if harder to enter into for Bladesinger. I would probably go Arcane Duelist 2/Fighter 1/Bard 1/Arcane Duelist 2 from the position you're in (I would suggest Bard 3/Fighter 1, but you'll end up with an XP penalty). That will put you at 16th level with a total loss of 4 base attack throughout all your classes. That means you can decide whether you want to focus on continuing your bardic spellcasting career (in which case Spell Singer is probably your best bet) or entering a class with full base attack bonus so you receive 4 attacks before entering epic levels. Warrior Skald isn't a bad option for that. (Alternatively, adding a level of bard and fighter instead of Arcane Duelist will let you enter into another medium base attack class like Spell Singer and still gain 4 attacks by epic.) Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/re/re20030224a) in case you're not aware of its location.
Impeesa 11-22-03, 01:20 AM	Old-style Dragon Disciple would have been a good one, particularly if your DM allowed the enlargement stat bonuses as many people suggested. Too bad they hosed its one cool ability. :( --Impeesa--
goblinhero 11-22-03, 01:47 AM	The new Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice for an elven bard/Fighter Any chance you could tell us why the New Bladesinger is actually a pretty decent choice? I mean, I'm not asking for copyright infringement, just an idea of the changes eh? is there a new new bladesinger? like in complete warrior? or is this new bladesinger the one presented in RoF? :confused:
catharz 11-22-03, 02:10 AM	From what I've hear'd, there is. If they made it Charisma-based, I will eat my hat.
goblinhero 11-22-03, 03:42 AM	Originally posted by catharz From what I've hear'd, there is. If they made it Charisma-based, I will eat my hat. wonder what the designers think is wrong with the RoF version. I'm fairly fond of that PrC as is. maybe its a Bladesinger clone with a different name.