Bardic Archer Build Critique? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bardic Archer Build Critique? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheDanishCartoonist
12-28-06, 06:26 PM I was hoping someone could give me some advice on my current bard build. I'm going for a bard with an archery focus. I just hit level 8, and my build currently is bard 6/fighter 1. I want to keep full bardic music, and my current play is to grab three levels of spellsword in addition to the fighter level to give me +16 bab at lvl 20, in addition to proficiencies and bonus feats which should make me a reasonably good archer, in addition to 18th level casting, and 20th level music with chaos music. I was initially going to take eldritch knight, but for a 3-level dip, spellsword gives the same BaB and spellcasting levels, and feat, but has better saves and HD.

Stats:

Str:14
Dex:16
Con:14 (HP 43)
Wis:8
Int:12
Cha:16 (18 with +2 cloak)

Feats:
Spellcasting Prodigy, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Chaos Music

Future feat plans:
Song of the Heart, Multishot at 9, Imp Precise shot later...what other feats would be good?

Spells Known:
0-Mending, light, detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation, mage hand.
1-Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Charm Person
2-Warcry, Alter Self, Cure Moderate Wounds, (cloud of bewilderment?)
3-? (Haste, fear? was my initial thought)
PhaedrusXY
12-28-06, 07:20 PM Do you actually plan on playing into Epic levels? If not, I wouldn't bother with Spellsword. Make sure you max out Use Magic Device, also. It is the best skill in the game.
TheDanishCartoonist
12-28-06, 07:40 PM Done and done on UMD:)

Why is spellsword bad into epic? I don't know if we'll get there, or how far we'll get, but my intent was mostly to up my BAB to +16 and grab a bonus feat without losing more than 1 more caster level. We are playing another game that is up to lvl 30 so going epic is definitely possible.
Sharp_Claw
12-28-06, 07:40 PM I'm not sure if it'll keep you at your BaB goal of +16, but virtuoso is usually a good choice for increasing bardic music and spellcasting. you'll get some other abilities, but remember that you wont gain any new uses of bardic music (read: whatever inspire courage modifier you have is what youll get at lvl 20, pending feats like Song of the Heart).

also, are you good? the Words of Creation feat (BoED) is quite nice.
icedrake
12-28-06, 08:43 PM Take War Singer instead of Spellsword.

Don't take any of the cure spells, I'd advise just using wands instead.

Sub out Spellcasting Prodogy for Song of the Heart or Haunting Melody.
TheDanishCartoonist
12-28-06, 09:01 PM Take War Singer instead of Spellsword.

Don't take any of the cure spells, I'd advise just using wands instead.

Sub out Spellcasting Prodogy for Song of the Heart or Haunting Melody.

We've been playing for a few sessions, so subbing out things I already have is out. Also, we're using the old, awesome version of spellcasting prodigy for some reason:D. What book is war singer in?

You're probably right about the cure spells, but The paladin and I are the only healers in the group, so I figured it would probably be worthwhile. I can sub them out probably, but what should I take instead?

As for virtuoso, I want to stick with a more marshal bard, as I'm a follower of Tempus and worked for several years as the leader of a band of mercenaries. Words of Creation is a possibility, I'm CG, but probably closer to the neutral side of good than the exalted side:(
Blade2718
12-28-06, 09:56 PM I believe the PrC being referenced is the Warchanter, not the War Singer. Very nice class for a martial Bard. Lingering Song will let you sing briefly and start firing into the fray.
AZNsupermarket
12-28-06, 11:19 PM Yuck! :yuck: Multi-classing as bard, especially in such a way that you lose caster levels and bardic performances leaves me with a terrible taste in my mouth :yuck:

If you have to multiclass (losing caster levels and bardic perfomances), why dip into fighter? Cleric seems like the better options. Worship the elven war god from races of the wild. Take the Elf and War domain - get weapon proficiency/focus (lonbow) and Point Blank Shot for free as domain abilities. You would also get some undead turning abilities (Based off your cha ;) ), which you can use to power some divine feats (many of which are based off your cha).
Khan the Destroyer
12-29-06, 12:52 AM I would suggest a Bow of Songs (Complete Adventurer). With Multishot and your bonuses to hit and damage (from bardic song and your charisma), you should be able to slay things pretty well.

And I also suggest staying away from Spellsword. It doesn't lend itself well to an archer bard build.

I would definitely recommend Song of the Heart. (I'm not sure what books you have available, but I would also suggest Inspirational Boost as a 1st level Spell Known.) After using Inspire Courage, spend your actions as such: Move Action- Activate Bow of Songs, Standard Action- Multishot.

WHen you gain Precise Shot, I would then suggest getting your Bow of Songs enchanted with the Splitting propert (Champions of Ruin).

I would either stick with Bard for better music effects and spells or grab one more level in fighter. You can't qualify for Warchanter, and trying to would be a waste. The feats aren't needed for an archer and the abilities gained from the class aren't either.

(And Words of Creation would be awesome!)
Dark_beebles
12-29-06, 01:19 AM Arg arg arg arg Bard6??? but ok too late now

Bard7/ftr2/Ek1/SC2/AA2/EK2-7
So you have a total of 18aba with 8th lvl spells you can also, Imbue arrows...Use Anti Magic Aura with it..you hit a caster and the antimagic is stuck on him..there is no save for that sucker!!!! Then you just procede to beat him.
I would Also take the Words of Creation in the Book of Exalted deeds, for 3d4 dmg you can double the effect of your Inspider courage, so it would be a total of +3 to a +6(take the feat that adds +1 to your inspire courage bonus for the +6). Also i would either take Lyrical Chant so you can use bardic music for free spells slots or even Iron SKin Chant its 1 song for a DR 5/- on any ally or yourself as a Immediate action not bad.
What i usually did was Ironskin chant myself then use the Words of Creation'd Inspire Courage...sometimes i took no dmg.

Hope this helps.
FriendlyFrog
12-29-06, 04:54 AM Nevermind...
Blade2718
12-29-06, 08:11 AM Bard7/ftr2/Ek1/SC2/AA2/EK2-7You're behind the times; Abjurant Champion is the new gish class.
The Crimson Dawn
12-29-06, 11:59 PM personally I might have gone warblade so I could pick up that white raven feat that aplies to bardic music.
Merryadocc
12-30-06, 12:24 AM What made the old Spellcasting Prodigy feat better than the new one? The old one you had to choose a class, the new you have to choose an ability score linked to spell casting. So the new one would apply to both Sorcerer and Bard because they use charisma.
Merryadocc
12-30-06, 01:02 AM You're behind the times; Abjurant Champion is the new gish class.

OMG! I just read the Abjurant Champion, someone at wizards is on crack, level 10 elf wizard with combat casting would be laughing! It wil be in pretty much every gish build I do from now on.

That gives me an idea, with a flaw for another feat, FR Human with Militia (1), Prodigy Intel (1), Toughness (1), Endurance (3), Empower Spell (6), Combat Casting (9), other feats for the other levels including Practiced Spellcaster. Levels as follows, Wiz5/Eldritch Knight3/Gray Hand Enforcer5/Abjurant Champion5, what to spend the other two levels on, Archmage I think.
Or Gray Elf (what ever the smarter ones are called these days)
Elf Paragon3/Wiz3/EK4/GHE5/AC5.

Bah, I had to go and read a rule book!
Ganbor
12-30-06, 03:50 AM What made the old Spellcasting Prodigy feat better than the new one? The old one you had to choose a class, the new you have to choose an ability score linked to spell casting. So the new one would apply to both Sorcerer and Bard because they use charisma.

3.0 added to DC as well as bonus spells
NewAdgeMusic
12-30-06, 11:50 AM If I might ask, in which books are the newer bardic feats you guys are talking about. Bard is my favorite class (go ahead and laugh but I major in music in college) and I have a character or two who might benefit greatly from them. Can someone message me a place to look them up?
Ganbor
12-30-06, 11:56 AM If I might ask, in which books are the newer bardic feats you guys are talking about. Bard is my favorite class (go ahead and laugh but I major in music in college) and I have a character or two who might benefit greatly from them. Can someone message me a place to look them up?

Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)
amalcon
12-30-06, 12:16 PM What made the old Spellcasting Prodigy feat better than the new one? The old one you had to choose a class, the new you have to choose an ability score linked to spell casting. So the new one would apply to both Sorcerer and Bard because they use charisma.

On the other hand, the old one actually did something useful. The new one just adds to bonus spells, which is OK, but the real reasons to take the old one were save DCs and the maximum level of spell you can cast (for Rangers/Paladins).
NewAdgeMusic
12-30-06, 06:15 PM Thanks
NewAdgeMusic
12-30-06, 06:22 PM Actually, the feat that I was curious about wasn't in there...hmmm...
Khan the Destroyer
12-31-06, 12:45 AM What feats are you referring to specifically?

The White Raven feat mentioned is in Tome of Battle. It allows a bard to activate his Inspire Courage as a swift action so long as he is in a White Raven Stance.

Words of Creation is in Book of Exalted Deeds. It requires you to be exalted (good to the extreme) and doubles the bonuses granted by your bardic music (you take nonlethal damage equal to the required ranks in perform of the ability).

Ironskin Chant is in Complete Adventurer and grants Damage Reduction 5/- for 1 round by expending a use of bardic music.

Song of the Heart is in the Eberron Campaign Setting and increases the bonuses of all your songs by 1.

Haunting Melody is also in the Eberron Campaign Setting and I forget what it does. Maybe it allows you to make people shaken. I don't know though.
NewAdgeMusic
01-04-07, 11:50 PM I found all of those (today actually) what i was looking for is Chaos Music and what it does (and what book it's in)
Ganbor
01-05-07, 02:58 AM I found all of those (today actually) what i was looking for is Chaos Music and what it does (and what book it's in)

It's not... It's from Dragon 326 apparently. Crystalkeep Feat Index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheDanishCartoonist 12-28-06, 06:26 PM	I was hoping someone could give me some advice on my current bard build. I'm going for a bard with an archery focus. I just hit level 8, and my build currently is bard 6/fighter 1. I want to keep full bardic music, and my current play is to grab three levels of spellsword in addition to the fighter level to give me +16 bab at lvl 20, in addition to proficiencies and bonus feats which should make me a reasonably good archer, in addition to 18th level casting, and 20th level music with chaos music. I was initially going to take eldritch knight, but for a 3-level dip, spellsword gives the same BaB and spellcasting levels, and feat, but has better saves and HD. Stats: Str:14 Dex:16 Con:14 (HP 43) Wis:8 Int:12 Cha:16 (18 with +2 cloak) Feats: Spellcasting Prodigy, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Chaos Music Future feat plans: Song of the Heart, Multishot at 9, Imp Precise shot later...what other feats would be good? Spells Known: 0-Mending, light, detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation, mage hand. 1-Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Charm Person 2-Warcry, Alter Self, Cure Moderate Wounds, (cloud of bewilderment?) 3-? (Haste, fear? was my initial thought)
PhaedrusXY 12-28-06, 07:20 PM	Do you actually plan on playing into Epic levels? If not, I wouldn't bother with Spellsword. Make sure you max out Use Magic Device, also. It is the best skill in the game.
TheDanishCartoonist 12-28-06, 07:40 PM	Done and done on UMD:) Why is spellsword bad into epic? I don't know if we'll get there, or how far we'll get, but my intent was mostly to up my BAB to +16 and grab a bonus feat without losing more than 1 more caster level. We are playing another game that is up to lvl 30 so going epic is definitely possible.
Sharp_Claw 12-28-06, 07:40 PM	I'm not sure if it'll keep you at your BaB goal of +16, but virtuoso is usually a good choice for increasing bardic music and spellcasting. you'll get some other abilities, but remember that you wont gain any new uses of bardic music (read: whatever inspire courage modifier you have is what youll get at lvl 20, pending feats like Song of the Heart). also, are you good? the Words of Creation feat (BoED) is quite nice.
icedrake 12-28-06, 08:43 PM	Take War Singer instead of Spellsword. Don't take any of the cure spells, I'd advise just using wands instead. Sub out Spellcasting Prodogy for Song of the Heart or Haunting Melody.
TheDanishCartoonist 12-28-06, 09:01 PM	Take War Singer instead of Spellsword. Don't take any of the cure spells, I'd advise just using wands instead. Sub out Spellcasting Prodogy for Song of the Heart or Haunting Melody. We've been playing for a few sessions, so subbing out things I already have is out. Also, we're using the old, awesome version of spellcasting prodigy for some reason:D. What book is war singer in? You're probably right about the cure spells, but The paladin and I are the only healers in the group, so I figured it would probably be worthwhile. I can sub them out probably, but what should I take instead? As for virtuoso, I want to stick with a more marshal bard, as I'm a follower of Tempus and worked for several years as the leader of a band of mercenaries. Words of Creation is a possibility, I'm CG, but probably closer to the neutral side of good than the exalted side:(
Blade2718 12-28-06, 09:56 PM	I believe the PrC being referenced is the Warchanter, not the War Singer. Very nice class for a martial Bard. Lingering Song will let you sing briefly and start firing into the fray.
AZNsupermarket 12-28-06, 11:19 PM	Yuck! :yuck: Multi-classing as bard, especially in such a way that you lose caster levels and bardic performances leaves me with a terrible taste in my mouth :yuck: If you have to multiclass (losing caster levels and bardic perfomances), why dip into fighter? Cleric seems like the better options. Worship the elven war god from races of the wild. Take the Elf and War domain - get weapon proficiency/focus (lonbow) and Point Blank Shot for free as domain abilities. You would also get some undead turning abilities (Based off your cha ;) ), which you can use to power some divine feats (many of which are based off your cha).
Khan the Destroyer 12-29-06, 12:52 AM	I would suggest a Bow of Songs (Complete Adventurer). With Multishot and your bonuses to hit and damage (from bardic song and your charisma), you should be able to slay things pretty well. And I also suggest staying away from Spellsword. It doesn't lend itself well to an archer bard build. I would definitely recommend Song of the Heart. (I'm not sure what books you have available, but I would also suggest Inspirational Boost as a 1st level Spell Known.) After using Inspire Courage, spend your actions as such: Move Action- Activate Bow of Songs, Standard Action- Multishot. WHen you gain Precise Shot, I would then suggest getting your Bow of Songs enchanted with the Splitting propert (Champions of Ruin). I would either stick with Bard for better music effects and spells or grab one more level in fighter. You can't qualify for Warchanter, and trying to would be a waste. The feats aren't needed for an archer and the abilities gained from the class aren't either. (And Words of Creation would be awesome!)
Dark_beebles 12-29-06, 01:19 AM	Arg arg arg arg Bard6??? but ok too late now Bard7/ftr2/Ek1/SC2/AA2/EK2-7 So you have a total of 18aba with 8th lvl spells you can also, Imbue arrows...Use Anti Magic Aura with it..you hit a caster and the antimagic is stuck on him..there is no save for that sucker!!!! Then you just procede to beat him. I would Also take the Words of Creation in the Book of Exalted deeds, for 3d4 dmg you can double the effect of your Inspider courage, so it would be a total of +3 to a +6(take the feat that adds +1 to your inspire courage bonus for the +6). Also i would either take Lyrical Chant so you can use bardic music for free spells slots or even Iron SKin Chant its 1 song for a DR 5/- on any ally or yourself as a Immediate action not bad. What i usually did was Ironskin chant myself then use the Words of Creation'd Inspire Courage...sometimes i took no dmg. Hope this helps.
FriendlyFrog 12-29-06, 04:54 AM	Nevermind...
Blade2718 12-29-06, 08:11 AM	Bard7/ftr2/Ek1/SC2/AA2/EK2-7You're behind the times; Abjurant Champion is the new gish class.
The Crimson Dawn 12-29-06, 11:59 PM	personally I might have gone warblade so I could pick up that white raven feat that aplies to bardic music.
Merryadocc 12-30-06, 12:24 AM	What made the old Spellcasting Prodigy feat better than the new one? The old one you had to choose a class, the new you have to choose an ability score linked to spell casting. So the new one would apply to both Sorcerer and Bard because they use charisma.
Merryadocc 12-30-06, 01:02 AM	You're behind the times; Abjurant Champion is the new gish class. OMG! I just read the Abjurant Champion, someone at wizards is on crack, level 10 elf wizard with combat casting would be laughing! It wil be in pretty much every gish build I do from now on. That gives me an idea, with a flaw for another feat, FR Human with Militia (1), Prodigy Intel (1), Toughness (1), Endurance (3), Empower Spell (6), Combat Casting (9), other feats for the other levels including Practiced Spellcaster. Levels as follows, Wiz5/Eldritch Knight3/Gray Hand Enforcer5/Abjurant Champion5, what to spend the other two levels on, Archmage I think. Or Gray Elf (what ever the smarter ones are called these days) Elf Paragon3/Wiz3/EK4/GHE5/AC5. Bah, I had to go and read a rule book!
Ganbor 12-30-06, 03:50 AM	What made the old Spellcasting Prodigy feat better than the new one? The old one you had to choose a class, the new you have to choose an ability score linked to spell casting. So the new one would apply to both Sorcerer and Bard because they use charisma. 3.0 added to DC as well as bonus spells
NewAdgeMusic 12-30-06, 11:50 AM	If I might ask, in which books are the newer bardic feats you guys are talking about. Bard is my favorite class (go ahead and laugh but I major in music in college) and I have a character or two who might benefit greatly from them. Can someone message me a place to look them up?
Ganbor 12-30-06, 11:56 AM	If I might ask, in which books are the newer bardic feats you guys are talking about. Bard is my favorite class (go ahead and laugh but I major in music in college) and I have a character or two who might benefit greatly from them. Can someone message me a place to look them up? Feat Index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)
amalcon 12-30-06, 12:16 PM	What made the old Spellcasting Prodigy feat better than the new one? The old one you had to choose a class, the new you have to choose an ability score linked to spell casting. So the new one would apply to both Sorcerer and Bard because they use charisma. On the other hand, the old one actually did something useful. The new one just adds to bonus spells, which is OK, but the real reasons to take the old one were save DCs and the maximum level of spell you can cast (for Rangers/Paladins).
NewAdgeMusic 12-30-06, 06:15 PM	Thanks
NewAdgeMusic 12-30-06, 06:22 PM	Actually, the feat that I was curious about wasn't in there...hmmm...
Khan the Destroyer 12-31-06, 12:45 AM	What feats are you referring to specifically? The White Raven feat mentioned is in Tome of Battle. It allows a bard to activate his Inspire Courage as a swift action so long as he is in a White Raven Stance. Words of Creation is in Book of Exalted Deeds. It requires you to be exalted (good to the extreme) and doubles the bonuses granted by your bardic music (you take nonlethal damage equal to the required ranks in perform of the ability). Ironskin Chant is in Complete Adventurer and grants Damage Reduction 5/- for 1 round by expending a use of bardic music. Song of the Heart is in the Eberron Campaign Setting and increases the bonuses of all your songs by 1. Haunting Melody is also in the Eberron Campaign Setting and I forget what it does. Maybe it allows you to make people shaken. I don't know though.
NewAdgeMusic 01-04-07, 11:50 PM	I found all of those (today actually) what i was looking for is Chaos Music and what it does (and what book it's in)
Ganbor 01-05-07, 02:58 AM	I found all of those (today actually) what i was looking for is Chaos Music and what it does (and what book it's in) It's not... It's from Dragon 326 apparently. Crystalkeep Feat Index (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)