Bardic Archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bardic Archer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TLStarfighter
07-15-05, 03:41 PM Thanks to anyone who reviews this build. I am looking for advise on building out a good Bard/Archer using only the core rules from 3.5. Here is what I am contemplating thusfar:

Race: Elven
Classes: Bard 10 / Arcane Archer 10
BAB: 17
Max Spell Level: 4th
Caster Level: 10
Attack/Damage Bonus: +5/+5 Enhancement, +2/+2 Morale

1 Bard - Point Blank Shot
2 Bard
3 Bard - Precise Shot
4 Bard
5 Bard
6 Bard - Weapon Focus Longbow
7 Bard
8 Bard
9 Arcane Archer - Rapid Shot
10 Arcane Archer
11 Arcane Archer
12 Arcane Archer - Far Shot
13 Arcane Archer
14 Arcane Archer
15 Arcane Archer - Improved Precise Shot
16 Arcane Archer
17 Arcane Archer
18 Arcane Archer - Many Shot
19 Bard
20 Bard

I would appreciate any comments that people might have.

Thanks,

TL Starfighter
rilem
07-15-05, 03:54 PM Arcane Archer, bluntly, bites. Unless you're in a very tight-magic situation, just have a Cleric or Wizard use Greater Magic Weapon to enchant your arrows. (3.0 Bard could do this as well, I think, but c'est la vie).

Typical builds include only two AA levels, if any, for Imbue Arrow and Enchant Arrow +1. That will let you put area effect spells on your arrows (the bard has a few good ones) and get you past DR/Magic. That's really all you need.

Bard8/AA2 for the first 10 levels. Then finish with either Bard8/Fighter2 (for spells and +16 BAB) or WarChanter5/x5 (for two songs at once) or SublimeChord/Full-BAB spellcasting class for high BAB and 9th level spells.
carnivore
07-15-05, 03:55 PM try this....probably one of the strongest Arcane Archers made:

Elf

Bard 8/ Arcane archer 2/ Sacred Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8

BAB +17
cast 9th lvl Arcane Spells
lots of Bardic music

you could also try this:

Elf

Bard 8/ Arcane archer 2/ Sacred Chord 2/ Spell Singer 4/ Eldritch Knight 4

gives more Bardic music
allows you to spontaneously cast any Enchantment spell 8th lvl and lower

:D
UMiskatonic
07-15-05, 04:23 PM Craft arms and armor is a good feat to have. Along with Summon monster I, you'll be able to create a magic bow, and bane arrows for whatever you think you'll be fighting.
imneuromancer
07-15-05, 04:29 PM I was fiddling with bardic archer build myself. I was thinking

Bard 4/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Arcane Archer X

I was going to play at 12th level, so the arcane archer level would be 4.

In this build, you get plenty of feats, some spells, and the auto-enchant of arrows means that I can let my class ability give me enchantment so that I could buy HOLY and some other abilities for my bow more cheaply.

There would be a -1 BAB hit (i.e. BAB of 11 instead of 12), but bardsong would allow me to get a +1 to hit and damage, thus overcoming that for most encounters (and helping the rest of the party, too!).

Also add all of the little advantages, like good saves, bardic music, bardic knowledge, etc.

In other words, it is pretty much just as good as going full fighter for what I wanted, but with more flexibility.

Any takers for deconstructing this one? I wanna know if there is some fatal flaw in it :-)
TLStarfighter
07-15-05, 05:32 PM Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll try to address them all in order. First, however, i would just like to issue a general reminder that I am restricted to core 3.5 material only. So PrCs like Warchanter, Sublime Chord, Sacred Chord, and Spell Singer are all offlimits.

rilem,

Why go with Bard 16, AA 2, Fighter 2 rather than Bard 16, AA 4 to get to the same BAB and caster level? Any thoughts on going with Bard 12, AA 8 to get to BAB 17 and a few more spell levels? Or is your reasoning that AA just isn't better than Bard at all and that I hsould perhaps go for Bard 20 and just take the 15 BAB?

Carnivore,

I'm pretty sure Bards can't become Eldritch Knights with out multiclassing first. EK requires proficiency with ALL martial weapons. The Bard doesn't get there. Also as noted above I can't do Sacred Cord.

imneuromancer,

Why split out into some many classes on the way up? The multiclassing penalty would hurt quite a bit.

Everyone,

Approaching this build from the perspective of an archer how does it rate? Comparing it against a Fighter or Ranger specced for archery? It seems that the extra abilities of the AA, Bardic music, and spells compensate for and outweigh the -3 to BAB.

Also, consider the fact that gaining arrow enchantment from the AA class allows me to cheaply enhance my bow with some other affect, like speed, or flaming, etc.

Generally would it be better to take more levels of AA or more levels of Bard? Is 10/10, 15/5, 16/4, or some other combination the bets way to split Bard/AA assuming you are locked into just those two?

Thanks again,

TLStarfighter
rilem
07-15-05, 05:44 PM 1. Bard16/Fighter2/AA2 vs. Bard16/AA4

Two free feats are better than Enchant Arrow +2 and Seeker Arrow 1/day, in my opinion. A lot better.

2. Bard12/AA8 — This gives you fewer spell levels, not more. And none of the AA's abilities from levels 3-8 are worth all that much. (In a low-magic campaign where you have no access to Wizards or Clerics, AAs can be better. As is, they're one of the weakest PrCs out there. Even Core-only, you can do better).

3. Bard/AAs can become Eldritch Knights — you need proficiency with all martial weapons, which AA gives you, and 3rd level spells.

So Bard8/AA2/EK10 gets you nearly full Bard spellcasting, BAB +18. I might go to Bard9 for Inspire Greatness.

4. Imneuromancer's build doesn't invoke XP penalties, but I don't like it regardless. Four levels of bard gets you little.

Bottom line: I'm all for enchanting bows cheaply. You certainly shouldn't pay for a +3 bow. That's why you get your Wizard buddy to cast ONE spell, and duplicate the effect of several levels of Arcane Archer.

At 12th level — when you'd get Enchant Arrow +2 going Bard8/AA4 — A Wizard can cast GMW +3 on 50 hours and have it last 12 hours (+4 with the right feats).
ninjarabbit
07-15-05, 06:01 PM A bard16/fighter2/AA2 is going to give you exp penalties if you plan on being an elf.

Personally I like bard12/AA2/EK6 or bard16/AA2/EK2 better, you still get a BAB of 16 or 17 and you keep more of your bard abilities and skill points, just be sure to rapidshot/haste every chance you get.
rilem
07-15-05, 06:18 PM If you're sold on Elf, you're probably stuck with Bard16/AA4 or [/b] Bard15/AA3/EK2. The latter one has slightly better saves and an extra feat. Both get +16 BAB, Inspire Heroics and 6th level Bard spells, and excellent skills that will make you useful for something besides shooting people.

Let's do the latter. Bard15/AA2/EK3

BAB +16, Saves 11/12/10

Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Leadership, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, ManyShot.

Use leadership to gain a spellcasting cohort to cast GMW.

Sing to Inspire Greatness in yourself, cast Greater Heroism and have your cohort cast GMW on your Arrows. Assuming a 12th level cohort, that's +9 to hit right there.
TLStarfighter
07-15-05, 06:30 PM rilem & ninjarabbit,

Thanks for the replies. I think that you are both right and that going with a Bard/AA/EK build would be the most optimal. I am some what torn between the 12/2/6 build and 16/2/2 build. The former makes more sense in terms of role play and has slightly better saves. The latter gets me to the next level of inspire courage and four more uses of bardic music per day. Either way thanks to everyone who has responded thus far. This is giving me some good ideas.
TLStarfighter
07-15-05, 06:35 PM If you're sold on Elf, you're probably stuck with Bard16/AA4 or [/b] Bard15/AA3/EK2. The latter one has slightly better saves and an extra feat. Both get +16 BAB, Inspire Heroics and 6th level Bard spells, and excellent skills that will make you useful for something besides shooting people.

Let's do the latter. Bard15/AA2/EK3

BAB +16, Saves 11/12/10

Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Leadership, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, ManyShot.

Use leadership to gain a spellcasting cohort to cast GMW.

Sing to Inspire Greatness in yourself, cast Greater Heroism and have your cohort cast GMW on your Arrows. Assuming a 12th level cohort, that's +9 to hit right there.

AA requires either Elf or Half Elf. Working from the assumption that I have to begin as a Bard (DM imposed), what builds would you suggets for a Half Elf that would be better than the Elf Bard/AA/EK?
X-Codes
07-15-05, 06:47 PM Human Bard 20
Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at level 1
Rapid Shot at level 3
Extra Spell [Divine Favor] at level 6
Leadership at level 9
Extra Spell [Magic Vestment] at level 12
Extra Spell [Divine Power] at level 15
Extra Spell [Greater Magic Weapon] at level 18

Cohort:
Human Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10
Iron Will and Extend Spell at level 1
Craft Wonderous Item at level 3
Empower Spell at level 5
Skill Focus [Spellcraft] and Persistent Spell at level 6
The rest doesn't really matter...

DC 39 to get Persistent Divine Favor, 48 to get Persistent Divine Power. Then you can have them make a +10 Spellcraft item.
ninjarabbit
07-15-05, 07:29 PM AA requires either Elf or Half Elf. Working from the assumption that I have to begin as a Bard (DM imposed), what builds would you suggets for a Half Elf that would be better than the Elf Bard/AA/EK?

A half elf can squeeze in some levels of fighter and/or ranger without penalties.

If you don't care so much for spellcasting and bard abilities go bard14/AA2/fighter2/ranger2 or bard14/AA2/fighter4 and get specialization in the long bow

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TLStarfighter 07-15-05, 03:41 PM	Thanks to anyone who reviews this build. I am looking for advise on building out a good Bard/Archer using only the core rules from 3.5. Here is what I am contemplating thusfar: Race: Elven Classes: Bard 10 / Arcane Archer 10 BAB: 17 Max Spell Level: 4th Caster Level: 10 Attack/Damage Bonus: +5/+5 Enhancement, +2/+2 Morale 1 Bard - Point Blank Shot 2 Bard 3 Bard - Precise Shot 4 Bard 5 Bard 6 Bard - Weapon Focus Longbow 7 Bard 8 Bard 9 Arcane Archer - Rapid Shot 10 Arcane Archer 11 Arcane Archer 12 Arcane Archer - Far Shot 13 Arcane Archer 14 Arcane Archer 15 Arcane Archer - Improved Precise Shot 16 Arcane Archer 17 Arcane Archer 18 Arcane Archer - Many Shot 19 Bard 20 Bard I would appreciate any comments that people might have. Thanks, TL Starfighter
rilem 07-15-05, 03:54 PM	Arcane Archer, bluntly, bites. Unless you're in a very tight-magic situation, just have a Cleric or Wizard use Greater Magic Weapon to enchant your arrows. (3.0 Bard could do this as well, I think, but c'est la vie). Typical builds include only two AA levels, if any, for Imbue Arrow and Enchant Arrow +1. That will let you put area effect spells on your arrows (the bard has a few good ones) and get you past DR/Magic. That's really all you need. Bard8/AA2 for the first 10 levels. Then finish with either Bard8/Fighter2 (for spells and +16 BAB) or WarChanter5/x5 (for two songs at once) or SublimeChord/Full-BAB spellcasting class for high BAB and 9th level spells.
carnivore 07-15-05, 03:55 PM	try this....probably one of the strongest Arcane Archers made: Elf Bard 8/ Arcane archer 2/ Sacred Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8 BAB +17 cast 9th lvl Arcane Spells lots of Bardic music you could also try this: Elf Bard 8/ Arcane archer 2/ Sacred Chord 2/ Spell Singer 4/ Eldritch Knight 4 gives more Bardic music allows you to spontaneously cast any Enchantment spell 8th lvl and lower :D
UMiskatonic 07-15-05, 04:23 PM	Craft arms and armor is a good feat to have. Along with Summon monster I, you'll be able to create a magic bow, and bane arrows for whatever you think you'll be fighting.
imneuromancer 07-15-05, 04:29 PM	I was fiddling with bardic archer build myself. I was thinking Bard 4/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Arcane Archer X I was going to play at 12th level, so the arcane archer level would be 4. In this build, you get plenty of feats, some spells, and the auto-enchant of arrows means that I can let my class ability give me enchantment so that I could buy HOLY and some other abilities for my bow more cheaply. There would be a -1 BAB hit (i.e. BAB of 11 instead of 12), but bardsong would allow me to get a +1 to hit and damage, thus overcoming that for most encounters (and helping the rest of the party, too!). Also add all of the little advantages, like good saves, bardic music, bardic knowledge, etc. In other words, it is pretty much just as good as going full fighter for what I wanted, but with more flexibility. Any takers for deconstructing this one? I wanna know if there is some fatal flaw in it :-)
TLStarfighter 07-15-05, 05:32 PM	Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll try to address them all in order. First, however, i would just like to issue a general reminder that I am restricted to core 3.5 material only. So PrCs like Warchanter, Sublime Chord, Sacred Chord, and Spell Singer are all offlimits. rilem, Why go with Bard 16, AA 2, Fighter 2 rather than Bard 16, AA 4 to get to the same BAB and caster level? Any thoughts on going with Bard 12, AA 8 to get to BAB 17 and a few more spell levels? Or is your reasoning that AA just isn't better than Bard at all and that I hsould perhaps go for Bard 20 and just take the 15 BAB? Carnivore, I'm pretty sure Bards can't become Eldritch Knights with out multiclassing first. EK requires proficiency with ALL martial weapons. The Bard doesn't get there. Also as noted above I can't do Sacred Cord. imneuromancer, Why split out into some many classes on the way up? The multiclassing penalty would hurt quite a bit. Everyone, Approaching this build from the perspective of an archer how does it rate? Comparing it against a Fighter or Ranger specced for archery? It seems that the extra abilities of the AA, Bardic music, and spells compensate for and outweigh the -3 to BAB. Also, consider the fact that gaining arrow enchantment from the AA class allows me to cheaply enhance my bow with some other affect, like speed, or flaming, etc. Generally would it be better to take more levels of AA or more levels of Bard? Is 10/10, 15/5, 16/4, or some other combination the bets way to split Bard/AA assuming you are locked into just those two? Thanks again, TLStarfighter
rilem 07-15-05, 05:44 PM	1. Bard16/Fighter2/AA2 vs. Bard16/AA4 Two free feats are better than Enchant Arrow +2 and Seeker Arrow 1/day, in my opinion. A lot better. 2. Bard12/AA8 — This gives you fewer spell levels, not more. And none of the AA's abilities from levels 3-8 are worth all that much. (In a low-magic campaign where you have no access to Wizards or Clerics, AAs can be better. As is, they're one of the weakest PrCs out there. Even Core-only, you can do better). 3. Bard/AAs can become Eldritch Knights — you need proficiency with all martial weapons, which AA gives you, and 3rd level spells. So Bard8/AA2/EK10 gets you nearly full Bard spellcasting, BAB +18. I might go to Bard9 for Inspire Greatness. 4. Imneuromancer's build doesn't invoke XP penalties, but I don't like it regardless. Four levels of bard gets you little. Bottom line: I'm all for enchanting bows cheaply. You certainly shouldn't pay for a +3 bow. That's why you get your Wizard buddy to cast ONE spell, and duplicate the effect of several levels of Arcane Archer. At 12th level — when you'd get Enchant Arrow +2 going Bard8/AA4 — A Wizard can cast GMW +3 on 50 hours and have it last 12 hours (+4 with the right feats).
ninjarabbit 07-15-05, 06:01 PM	A bard16/fighter2/AA2 is going to give you exp penalties if you plan on being an elf. Personally I like bard12/AA2/EK6 or bard16/AA2/EK2 better, you still get a BAB of 16 or 17 and you keep more of your bard abilities and skill points, just be sure to rapidshot/haste every chance you get.
rilem 07-15-05, 06:18 PM	If you're sold on Elf, you're probably stuck with Bard16/AA4 or [/b] Bard15/AA3/EK2. The latter one has slightly better saves and an extra feat. Both get +16 BAB, Inspire Heroics and 6th level Bard spells, and excellent skills that will make you useful for something besides shooting people. Let's do the latter. Bard15/AA2/EK3 BAB +16, Saves 11/12/10 Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Leadership, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, ManyShot. Use leadership to gain a spellcasting cohort to cast GMW. Sing to Inspire Greatness in yourself, cast Greater Heroism and have your cohort cast GMW on your Arrows. Assuming a 12th level cohort, that's +9 to hit right there.
TLStarfighter 07-15-05, 06:30 PM	rilem & ninjarabbit, Thanks for the replies. I think that you are both right and that going with a Bard/AA/EK build would be the most optimal. I am some what torn between the 12/2/6 build and 16/2/2 build. The former makes more sense in terms of role play and has slightly better saves. The latter gets me to the next level of inspire courage and four more uses of bardic music per day. Either way thanks to everyone who has responded thus far. This is giving me some good ideas.
TLStarfighter 07-15-05, 06:35 PM	If you're sold on Elf, you're probably stuck with Bard16/AA4 or [/b] Bard15/AA3/EK2. The latter one has slightly better saves and an extra feat. Both get +16 BAB, Inspire Heroics and 6th level Bard spells, and excellent skills that will make you useful for something besides shooting people. Let's do the latter. Bard15/AA2/EK3 BAB +16, Saves 11/12/10 Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Leadership, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, ManyShot. Use leadership to gain a spellcasting cohort to cast GMW. Sing to Inspire Greatness in yourself, cast Greater Heroism and have your cohort cast GMW on your Arrows. Assuming a 12th level cohort, that's +9 to hit right there. AA requires either Elf or Half Elf. Working from the assumption that I have to begin as a Bard (DM imposed), what builds would you suggets for a Half Elf that would be better than the Elf Bard/AA/EK?
X-Codes 07-15-05, 06:47 PM	Human Bard 20 Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at level 1 Rapid Shot at level 3 Extra Spell [Divine Favor] at level 6 Leadership at level 9 Extra Spell [Magic Vestment] at level 12 Extra Spell [Divine Power] at level 15 Extra Spell [Greater Magic Weapon] at level 18 Cohort: Human Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 Iron Will and Extend Spell at level 1 Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 Empower Spell at level 5 Skill Focus [Spellcraft] and Persistent Spell at level 6 The rest doesn't really matter... DC 39 to get Persistent Divine Favor, 48 to get Persistent Divine Power. Then you can have them make a +10 Spellcraft item.
ninjarabbit 07-15-05, 07:29 PM	AA requires either Elf or Half Elf. Working from the assumption that I have to begin as a Bard (DM imposed), what builds would you suggets for a Half Elf that would be better than the Elf Bard/AA/EK? A half elf can squeeze in some levels of fighter and/or ranger without penalties. If you don't care so much for spellcasting and bard abilities go bard14/AA2/fighter2/ranger2 or bard14/AA2/fighter4 and get specialization in the long bow