Bardic Archers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bardic Archers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
avatarolt
07-18-03, 11:28 AM Exercise:

Starting from a level 4 bard, make an archer/bard (as the build FAQ doesn't include bards because they're hated). 3.5 rules apply.

Thanks. :)
LordShade
07-18-03, 12:14 PM Exercise:

Starting from your mouse, make a search (as the regulars don't make characters for you). Commonsense rules apply.

Thanks.
avatarolt
07-18-03, 12:25 PM Dear Sir:

I have both searched and checked the build FAQ.

No search results in this forum for "bard archer", "bard *bow", or "bard arrow". While I understand your desire to be the bigger and badder message board junkie with the typical "UTFSE" complaint, this doesn't negate the fact that I *did* search and read the FAQ. If you'd like to perform a search and prove me wrong, you're more than welcome to give me a link or two instead of being a jerk.

If anyone else would like to be helpful (and no, it doesn't even have to be a complete build -- I'd just like to have some ways to think about doing it) and not be a smartass without actually checking as to what's available, I'd appreciate it. If there's something I'm missing or not doing properly with my searches, I'd love to hear it too -- but I assume that somewhere in the body of text there would be both the words "bard" and either "archer", "bow", or "arrow".

And next time, perhaps you should try UTFSE before you start acting high and mighty.

(and not even mentioning the fact that it's a 3.5 build...considering the new arrow stacking rules, the bardic changes, etc., etc., I think there's a lot of *new* work to be done on *any* archer character -- but that's just me)
Propaganda
07-18-03, 12:39 PM Maybe the search was down briefly. My seach for "bard" & "archer" gave me 60 results.

-Props
pingpong
07-18-03, 12:47 PM i think i know what the problem is, ive been doing this for a while...

if you search the specific forums, using the Character Optimization thats listed under Player's Handbook, it wont work. the search wont find anything.

if you scroll down almost all the way to the bottom, under "d20 related topics", youll find another entry for Character Optimization. search that one, and you should get a lot of results.

and yeah, that was kind of rude, seeing as how it may have just been an honest mistake.
LordShade
07-18-03, 04:15 PM ...

bard archer 1 (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=004 238)

bard archer 2 (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=004 833)

more info (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=004 992)

even more (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 101)

more ideas (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 262)

it never ends (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 417)

search turned up this one too (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 196)

and this one (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 472)
Scandal
07-18-03, 04:28 PM A common mistake trust me It takes some getting used to the new search stuff and the boards being changed around.. Some people like to think everyone should know what they are doing on these boards and expect it from everyone.. well unfortunately some people are new to the boards and are still trying to figure them out.. No call for rudeness...

Straight Bard good in 3.5 or so it looks..

and of course there is always the Bard/AA

but I am just a bigginer..

Thanks,

-Scan
LordShade
07-18-03, 04:39 PM For the record, I did not mean to be rude, but this ****** me off:

Originally posted by avatarolt

make an archer/bard

Do some work yourself. Geez.
avatarolt
07-18-03, 04:42 PM Thank you for your assistance. As it turns out, the previous poster was correct -- I apparently was searching the wrong Character Optimization board.

Who would have known that n00bs can make mistakes?

As previously stated, I am indeed fairly new to the boards and came on right before the "switch". I'm usually quite capable of operating the search button on my own and found it rather surprising that there were "no" bardic archers.

Thank you for your assistance in helping another one of those damn newbies finding their way around the board. Couldn't they just go somewhere else besides the corporate-sponsored forums for the game for help? ;)

And thanks for the help, LordShade. Sorry I couldn't be asked to know the rules back and forward as I re-enter a game that's changing its rule set a mere two months after I began playing. As I wrote the first message this morning, I was sitting with copies of the 3.5 books trying to figure out whether or not I was missing anything. I *am* "doing some work myself", but I'm trying to figure out what changes are relevant and in different ways of thinking about characters -- I'm new to "builds" as well, so I don't think of all those killer 1337 combos.

So sorry if I ****** you off. I asked an innocent question after following instructions (search and FAQ, even if I can't operate a search function) and got my head bit off. You may be angry and crabby and tired of replying to these messages -- so don't reply. It'd probably help your blood pressure too.
Boondoggle
07-18-03, 05:40 PM Bard 7/Rog 3/AT 10
LordShade
07-18-03, 08:41 PM Originally posted by avatarolt
You may be angry and crabby and tired of replying to these messages -- so don't reply. It'd probably help your blood pressure too.

haha, fair enough. I'll try to be nicer in the future :)

In any case, welcome to the boards... one thing about etiquette, generally the posters here don't appreciate new members asking others to build characters for them. The most productive way is for you to design a build and post it so others have an opportunity to offer constructive criticism. When someone comes on here and says "make me a bard archer starting at level 4" it generally isn't well received.

You could start by posting your level 4 character. What race are you and what feats have you chosen? What are your stats and do you have any special character concept?
avatarolt
07-18-03, 08:56 PM Ah, there's the rub.

See, I'm the "internet-saavy" one of the gaming group (besides the DM), and as we're going to 3.5e as soon as someone gets over here with the books, I was asked by the person in the party to put up a request for ideas.

Thus, I will steal his character sheet at the earliest opportunity and see what's up. Although I really like the idea of the bard/rog/AT...I might just bring it up with him. We'll be having some sort of meeting on all this stuff sometime next week -- I'll try to have a character sheet at that point in time.

All I was aware of was that somehow a big deal is being made of the stacking issues and the nerf to GMW...I'm interested in how much this changes things most in particular.

But yeah, going to grab the character sheet now. :)

edited with the few bits of knowledge I know:

Wild Elf, bard 4
ridiculously high dex, mildly ridiculously high Chr (20/17 I believe)...not sure about int, it might have been one of his dump stats. Con isn't what I'd call decent, but I can't remember numbers at this point in time.
He's basically the primary archer...the party consists of wizard/druid/ranger (looking at possibly the rgr/rog/SD build -- but he's probably our hardest hitter at this point, so he's unsure about taking less of a melee role)/bard/psionic meat shield
The bard will probably be working on buffing, singing, and shooting arrows (again, a good reason to move towards bard/rog/AT, imo).
Snow Savant
07-18-03, 10:27 PM Avatarolt,

Bard7 / Rgr8 / SoldierofLight1 / Templar1 / ShadowScout1 / Geomancer2

Just an idea for you to ponder. And it may not appeal to your Wild Elf starting at 4th level (although I can't tell if that is ironclad in concept from your last post). But with your DEX20 & CHA17, this build would really shine. The Ranger component is a nice conceptual mix with your Wild Elf race.

BAB +17, Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow, Damage Multipliers = 3 Fav. Enemies (+6) and Divine Might Feat via SoL (+4 with your CHA-17), tons of Ranger goodies, 3.5 Bard's Fascinate/Suggestion, 3rd Level Bard Spells, 2nd Level Ranger Spells, 40' Base Movement.

If you want 4th Level Bard spells, eliminate 1 or 2 of the PrC's and swap with more Geomancer levels.

Hope that helps,
Snow :)
LordShade
07-18-03, 10:44 PM Snow,

That is a pretty complicated build... and I thought Divine Might did not work with ranged attacks?

Avatarolt - as for the Bard/Rog/AT, the benefit is that you'll have a lot of magic and SA dice to work with. The downside is that AT doesn't advance bardic music and the BAB will suffer. I think your final BAB is +12, which is enough for 3 attacks, but you don't get that 3rd attack until level 18. If you don't have a dedicated rogue in the group, this is probably your best bet - otherwise, leave the sneaking to the thief, and concentrate on your strengths.

A lot of people recommend straight, undiluted Bard 20. That will give you 3 attacks fairly quickly, good songs, and decent magic.

However, I'd propose that you look at the Warrior Skald PrC from FR. It grants warrior BAB and advances bardic music. A build like Bard10/WS10 gives you a +17 BAB, and with the right feats, you'll be a strong fighter-archer in addition to being a full strength bard. The downside is that your magic suffers. A decent compromise might be Bard16/WS4, which gives you full bardsong, 16 levels of magic, and four attacks a round. If you want a true "bard" whose focus is fighting of any kind, I think Bard16/WS4 is the way to go... simple and very logical.

I haven't done a detailed analysis of the Bard/WS build so I would wait until Snow Savant has a chance to comment. She is the resident expert on bards (among other things). I didn't like the build she posted in this thread (sorry Snow! ...IMO overly complex and dilutes the core bard strengths) but her other bard builds are very potent.
Snow Savant
07-18-03, 11:10 PM Divine Might is added to "weapon damage", so arrows are applicable for Divine Might.

As you know, I'm one of the biggest champions of Bard-20 on this board. But I don't advocate it anymore ... I'll assume that most people know it's damn good. Especially with 3.5's improvement of Bard.

My Bard/Ranger build is actually not complicated at all. It's almost all Bard/Ranger, the remaining 5 levels are highly customizable - and can be re-integrated back into the 2 core-classes if so desired. And keep in mind, I made this suggestion based on the uniqueness of Avatarolt's DEX & CHA high starting totals. The Templar levels synergized with the free Endurance feat of Ranger-3 and the obvious acquisition of WpnFocus: Bow that his archer would have. ShadowScout capitalized on adding a 3rd Fav. Enemy bonus - which 3 @ +6 is where the investment starts to really pay off (in addition to boosting speed by +10').

I didn't like the build she posted in this thread (sorry Snow! ...IMO overly complex and dilutes the core bard strengths)

Mutli-class 3.5 Bard is not to be underestimated. Bard-20 rules - I know that, you know that. Even in 3.0, Bard-4 was a common prefix for many builds - and a darn good one at that. Bard-6 is now the 3.5 default "good" prefix due to Fascinate/Suggestion. Bard-7 as well, for the 3rd level spells, and Bard-8 for the decent BAB (before dropping off at Bard-9) along with the other associated goodies of the Bard.

I typically do not like Bard/Ranger multiclassing, but it works for some character archetypes, and has nice stat and racial synergy with Avatarolt's concept.

XO,
Snow:cloud9:

P.S. LordShade .... hmm, me having overly complex builds?!?! Pot-kettle-black, my Friend. You have some doozies yourself! :P
not-a-ninja
07-19-03, 01:57 AM don't know how effective it would be for archers, probably not at all...but a cool build (other than my favorite bard build of brd7/rog3/AT10) is this...

star elf
bard5/spellsinger5/warrior skald10
+16 bab, 20 levels of bardic music, 4th level spells, and all kinds of good stuff...

but back to the archer question.

what about something simple like...

human
bard7/templar1/deepwoods sniper2/order of the bow initiate10
or
bard4/fighter4/deepwoods sniper2/order of the bow initiate10

i like the second build more for it's simple approach.

or if you want an even more simplistic approach, while sacrificing effectiveness, you could always try the bard10/arcane archer10.

word.
LordShade
07-19-03, 04:03 AM Originally posted by Snow Savant

P.S. LordShade .... hmm, me having overly complex builds?!?! Pot-kettle-black, my Friend. You have some doozies yourself! :P

:cool:

True enough. I am trying to scale back a little bit, however... feel free to keep me honest. :)

As for the stat synergy, I don't see it. Why does 8 levels of ranger make better use of high dexterity than any other missile attack build? I admit I have not seen the 3.5 books so there may be something I am missing here.

Regarding SS1, I don't think SS is worth it just for the favored enemy. I realize you are getting the fast movement, but are you sure that level isn't better utilized elsewhere, like increasing your core competencies for instance? If you're going to take the PrC I think you should stick to it for 4 levels, netting you evasion, detect, and fast movement. To me those are the real gems - the favored enemies are just bonus. (unless they are a core part of your concept, as in the case of the svirfneblin drowhunter we discussed a while back)

Soldier of Light and Templar are both solid for obvious reasons... but Geomancer?? I read somewhere that bards no longer have ASF, so the spell versatility is not an issue anymore. The drifts from the first 2 levels of Geo are pretty worthless in most cases. What does the class give you, then? 2 caster levels... doesn't that mean you're better off just taking 2 more levels of your core class?

Not a Ninja - those two archer builds you posted have mostly fighter-archer PrCs. When you get to that point, are you really a bard archer? Your music and spells are both at rudimentary levels of ability. To me, your character concept becomes more of a fighter who knows how to play a musical instrument. Are 4 levels of bard really better than 4 levels of fighter at this point? When you're playing the character, will you actually feel like you're playing the bard?

I don't mean to knock on either of you, ninja and snow, but in my opinion yall are really getting away from being a "bard." That's why I put forth the Bard16/WS4.

...and we probably need Avatarolt to step in at this point and give us some more direction as to exactly what he's looking for.
Snow Savant
07-19-03, 02:06 PM Why does 8 levels of ranger make better use of high dexterity than any other missile attack build? I admit I have not seen the 3.5 books so there may be something I am missing here.

1.) To avoid XP Penalties since the character is a Wild Elf (fav. class = Fighter). Bard8 / Ranger7 or B7/R8 is strong with Avatarolt's high DEX and CHA. I would have loved to have stopped at R6, but XP penalties would have kicked in.
2.) Every level of Ranger 3.5 up to at least 11th level has a worthwhile pay-off ability. Rgr3 & Rgr6 give his archer 2 virtual archery feats.

Regarding SS1, I don't think SS is worth it just for the favored enemy. I realize you are getting the fast movement, but are you sure that level isn't better utilized elsewhere, like increasing your core competencies for instance?

If you so desire. This build is customizable. As are most of my option builds. The beauty in them is that if you do as you suggest, you still get alternative benefits ... or stick to the original and you'll get the bennies listed in my prior post ... or tweak it further, say take SoL-2 to make your CHA work even harder for you.

Soldier of Light and Templar are both solid for obvious reasons... but Geomancer??

Then don't take it. As mentioned prior, it's a customizable build capable of swapping out other component levels to progress in a Bard SC level advancement class. One that also has Survival as a class skill - helping out the Tracking aspect of the Ranger. Keep in mind, the XP penalty issue with the Wild Elf class.

Snow
LordShade
07-19-03, 02:44 PM What is wild elf's favored class? fighter?
pingpong
07-19-03, 03:52 PM Originally posted by LordShade
What is wild elf's favored class? fighter?

Originally posted by Snow Savant
To avoid XP Penalties since the character is a Wild Elf (fav. class = Fighter).
JosephKell
07-19-03, 11:29 PM 3.5 Bardic Archer! Level 4! Okay... but it won't be truely effective until level 6... (when it can take Arcane Strike!)

Human Bards have 3 feats, non-humans have only 2

so Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot for non-humans, and Humans should also take Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload (Crossbow Bard)

At level 6 the Bardic Archer (or Crossbow Bard) should take Arcane Strike!
Gish'sarath
07-20-03, 12:25 AM I think wild elves favored class is sor.

I was looking over the bard and noticed that their bard song abilites are mostly standard actions. If I remember correctly wasn't a bard able to use a bow in conjunction with their music ability in 3.0? Has that changed in 3.5?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
avatarolt 07-18-03, 11:28 AM	Exercise: Starting from a level 4 bard, make an archer/bard (as the build FAQ doesn't include bards because they're hated). 3.5 rules apply. Thanks. :)
LordShade 07-18-03, 12:14 PM	Exercise: Starting from your mouse, make a search (as the regulars don't make characters for you). Commonsense rules apply. Thanks.
avatarolt 07-18-03, 12:25 PM	Dear Sir: I have both searched and checked the build FAQ. No search results in this forum for "bard archer", "bard bow", or "bard arrow". While I understand your desire to be the bigger and badder message board junkie with the typical "UTFSE" complaint, this doesn't negate the fact that I did* search and read the FAQ. If you'd like to perform a search and prove me wrong, you're more than welcome to give me a link or two instead of being a jerk. If anyone else would like to be helpful (and no, it doesn't even have to be a complete build -- I'd just like to have some ways to think about doing it) and not be a smartass without actually checking as to what's available, I'd appreciate it. If there's something I'm missing or not doing properly with my searches, I'd love to hear it too -- but I assume that somewhere in the body of text there would be both the words "bard" and either "archer", "bow", or "arrow". And next time, perhaps you should try UTFSE before you start acting high and mighty. (and not even mentioning the fact that it's a 3.5 build...considering the new arrow stacking rules, the bardic changes, etc., etc., I think there's a lot of new work to be done on any archer character -- but that's just me)
Propaganda 07-18-03, 12:39 PM	Maybe the search was down briefly. My seach for "bard" & "archer" gave me 60 results. -Props
pingpong 07-18-03, 12:47 PM	i think i know what the problem is, ive been doing this for a while... if you search the specific forums, using the Character Optimization thats listed under Player's Handbook, it wont work. the search wont find anything. if you scroll down almost all the way to the bottom, under "d20 related topics", youll find another entry for Character Optimization. search that one, and you should get a lot of results. and yeah, that was kind of rude, seeing as how it may have just been an honest mistake.
LordShade 07-18-03, 04:15 PM	... bard archer 1 (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=004 238) bard archer 2 (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=004 833) more info (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=004 992) even more (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 101) more ideas (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 262) it never ends (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 417) search turned up this one too (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 196) and this one (http://archivedboards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=271;t=005 472)
Scandal 07-18-03, 04:28 PM	A common mistake trust me It takes some getting used to the new search stuff and the boards being changed around.. Some people like to think everyone should know what they are doing on these boards and expect it from everyone.. well unfortunately some people are new to the boards and are still trying to figure them out.. No call for rudeness... Straight Bard good in 3.5 or so it looks.. and of course there is always the Bard/AA but I am just a bigginer.. Thanks, -Scan
LordShade 07-18-03, 04:39 PM	For the record, I did not mean to be rude, but this ****** me off: Originally posted by avatarolt make an archer/bard Do some work yourself. Geez.
avatarolt 07-18-03, 04:42 PM	Thank you for your assistance. As it turns out, the previous poster was correct -- I apparently was searching the wrong Character Optimization board. Who would have known that n00bs can make mistakes? As previously stated, I am indeed fairly new to the boards and came on right before the "switch". I'm usually quite capable of operating the search button on my own and found it rather surprising that there were "no" bardic archers. Thank you for your assistance in helping another one of those damn newbies finding their way around the board. Couldn't they just go somewhere else besides the corporate-sponsored forums for the game for help? ;) And thanks for the help, LordShade. Sorry I couldn't be asked to know the rules back and forward as I re-enter a game that's changing its rule set a mere two months after I began playing. As I wrote the first message this morning, I was sitting with copies of the 3.5 books trying to figure out whether or not I was missing anything. I am "doing some work myself", but I'm trying to figure out what changes are relevant and in different ways of thinking about characters -- I'm new to "builds" as well, so I don't think of all those killer 1337 combos. So sorry if I ****** you off. I asked an innocent question after following instructions (search and FAQ, even if I can't operate a search function) and got my head bit off. You may be angry and crabby and tired of replying to these messages -- so don't reply. It'd probably help your blood pressure too.
Boondoggle 07-18-03, 05:40 PM	Bard 7/Rog 3/AT 10
LordShade 07-18-03, 08:41 PM	Originally posted by avatarolt You may be angry and crabby and tired of replying to these messages -- so don't reply. It'd probably help your blood pressure too. haha, fair enough. I'll try to be nicer in the future :) In any case, welcome to the boards... one thing about etiquette, generally the posters here don't appreciate new members asking others to build characters for them. The most productive way is for you to design a build and post it so others have an opportunity to offer constructive criticism. When someone comes on here and says "make me a bard archer starting at level 4" it generally isn't well received. You could start by posting your level 4 character. What race are you and what feats have you chosen? What are your stats and do you have any special character concept?
avatarolt 07-18-03, 08:56 PM	Ah, there's the rub. See, I'm the "internet-saavy" one of the gaming group (besides the DM), and as we're going to 3.5e as soon as someone gets over here with the books, I was asked by the person in the party to put up a request for ideas. Thus, I will steal his character sheet at the earliest opportunity and see what's up. Although I really like the idea of the bard/rog/AT...I might just bring it up with him. We'll be having some sort of meeting on all this stuff sometime next week -- I'll try to have a character sheet at that point in time. All I was aware of was that somehow a big deal is being made of the stacking issues and the nerf to GMW...I'm interested in how much this changes things most in particular. But yeah, going to grab the character sheet now. :) edited with the few bits of knowledge I know: Wild Elf, bard 4 ridiculously high dex, mildly ridiculously high Chr (20/17 I believe)...not sure about int, it might have been one of his dump stats. Con isn't what I'd call decent, but I can't remember numbers at this point in time. He's basically the primary archer...the party consists of wizard/druid/ranger (looking at possibly the rgr/rog/SD build -- but he's probably our hardest hitter at this point, so he's unsure about taking less of a melee role)/bard/psionic meat shield The bard will probably be working on buffing, singing, and shooting arrows (again, a good reason to move towards bard/rog/AT, imo).
Snow Savant 07-18-03, 10:27 PM	Avatarolt, Bard7 / Rgr8 / SoldierofLight1 / Templar1 / ShadowScout1 / Geomancer2 Just an idea for you to ponder. And it may not appeal to your Wild Elf starting at 4th level (although I can't tell if that is ironclad in concept from your last post). But with your DEX20 & CHA17, this build would really shine. The Ranger component is a nice conceptual mix with your Wild Elf race. BAB +17, Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow, Damage Multipliers = 3 Fav. Enemies (+6) and Divine Might Feat via SoL (+4 with your CHA-17), tons of Ranger goodies, 3.5 Bard's Fascinate/Suggestion, 3rd Level Bard Spells, 2nd Level Ranger Spells, 40' Base Movement. If you want 4th Level Bard spells, eliminate 1 or 2 of the PrC's and swap with more Geomancer levels. Hope that helps, Snow :)
LordShade 07-18-03, 10:44 PM	Snow, That is a pretty complicated build... and I thought Divine Might did not work with ranged attacks? Avatarolt - as for the Bard/Rog/AT, the benefit is that you'll have a lot of magic and SA dice to work with. The downside is that AT doesn't advance bardic music and the BAB will suffer. I think your final BAB is +12, which is enough for 3 attacks, but you don't get that 3rd attack until level 18. If you don't have a dedicated rogue in the group, this is probably your best bet - otherwise, leave the sneaking to the thief, and concentrate on your strengths. A lot of people recommend straight, undiluted Bard 20. That will give you 3 attacks fairly quickly, good songs, and decent magic. However, I'd propose that you look at the Warrior Skald PrC from FR. It grants warrior BAB and advances bardic music. A build like Bard10/WS10 gives you a +17 BAB, and with the right feats, you'll be a strong fighter-archer in addition to being a full strength bard. The downside is that your magic suffers. A decent compromise might be Bard16/WS4, which gives you full bardsong, 16 levels of magic, and four attacks a round. If you want a true "bard" whose focus is fighting of any kind, I think Bard16/WS4 is the way to go... simple and very logical. I haven't done a detailed analysis of the Bard/WS build so I would wait until Snow Savant has a chance to comment. She is the resident expert on bards (among other things). I didn't like the build she posted in this thread (sorry Snow! ...IMO overly complex and dilutes the core bard strengths) but her other bard builds are very potent.
Snow Savant 07-18-03, 11:10 PM	Divine Might is added to "weapon damage", so arrows are applicable for Divine Might. As you know, I'm one of the biggest champions of Bard-20 on this board. But I don't advocate it anymore ... I'll assume that most people know it's damn good. Especially with 3.5's improvement of Bard. My Bard/Ranger build is actually not complicated at all. It's almost all Bard/Ranger, the remaining 5 levels are highly customizable - and can be re-integrated back into the 2 core-classes if so desired. And keep in mind, I made this suggestion based on the uniqueness of Avatarolt's DEX & CHA high starting totals. The Templar levels synergized with the free Endurance feat of Ranger-3 and the obvious acquisition of WpnFocus: Bow that his archer would have. ShadowScout capitalized on adding a 3rd Fav. Enemy bonus - which 3 @ +6 is where the investment starts to really pay off (in addition to boosting speed by +10'). I didn't like the build she posted in this thread (sorry Snow! ...IMO overly complex and dilutes the core bard strengths) Mutli-class 3.5 Bard is not to be underestimated. Bard-20 rules - I know that, you know that. Even in 3.0, Bard-4 was a common prefix for many builds - and a darn good one at that. Bard-6 is now the 3.5 default "good" prefix due to Fascinate/Suggestion. Bard-7 as well, for the 3rd level spells, and Bard-8 for the decent BAB (before dropping off at Bard-9) along with the other associated goodies of the Bard. I typically do not like Bard/Ranger multiclassing, but it works for some character archetypes, and has nice stat and racial synergy with Avatarolt's concept. XO, Snow:cloud9: P.S. LordShade .... hmm, me having overly complex builds?!?! Pot-kettle-black, my Friend. You have some doozies yourself! :P
not-a-ninja 07-19-03, 01:57 AM	don't know how effective it would be for archers, probably not at all...but a cool build (other than my favorite bard build of brd7/rog3/AT10) is this... star elf bard5/spellsinger5/warrior skald10 +16 bab, 20 levels of bardic music, 4th level spells, and all kinds of good stuff... but back to the archer question. what about something simple like... human bard7/templar1/deepwoods sniper2/order of the bow initiate10 or bard4/fighter4/deepwoods sniper2/order of the bow initiate10 i like the second build more for it's simple approach. or if you want an even more simplistic approach, while sacrificing effectiveness, you could always try the bard10/arcane archer10. word.
LordShade 07-19-03, 04:03 AM	Originally posted by Snow Savant P.S. LordShade .... hmm, me having overly complex builds?!?! Pot-kettle-black, my Friend. You have some doozies yourself! :P :cool: True enough. I am trying to scale back a little bit, however... feel free to keep me honest. :) As for the stat synergy, I don't see it. Why does 8 levels of ranger make better use of high dexterity than any other missile attack build? I admit I have not seen the 3.5 books so there may be something I am missing here. Regarding SS1, I don't think SS is worth it just for the favored enemy. I realize you are getting the fast movement, but are you sure that level isn't better utilized elsewhere, like increasing your core competencies for instance? If you're going to take the PrC I think you should stick to it for 4 levels, netting you evasion, detect, and fast movement. To me those are the real gems - the favored enemies are just bonus. (unless they are a core part of your concept, as in the case of the svirfneblin drowhunter we discussed a while back) Soldier of Light and Templar are both solid for obvious reasons... but Geomancer?? I read somewhere that bards no longer have ASF, so the spell versatility is not an issue anymore. The drifts from the first 2 levels of Geo are pretty worthless in most cases. What does the class give you, then? 2 caster levels... doesn't that mean you're better off just taking 2 more levels of your core class? Not a Ninja - those two archer builds you posted have mostly fighter-archer PrCs. When you get to that point, are you really a bard archer? Your music and spells are both at rudimentary levels of ability. To me, your character concept becomes more of a fighter who knows how to play a musical instrument. Are 4 levels of bard really better than 4 levels of fighter at this point? When you're playing the character, will you actually feel like you're playing the bard? I don't mean to knock on either of you, ninja and snow, but in my opinion yall are really getting away from being a "bard." That's why I put forth the Bard16/WS4. ...and we probably need Avatarolt to step in at this point and give us some more direction as to exactly what he's looking for.
Snow Savant 07-19-03, 02:06 PM	Why does 8 levels of ranger make better use of high dexterity than any other missile attack build? I admit I have not seen the 3.5 books so there may be something I am missing here. 1.) To avoid XP Penalties since the character is a Wild Elf (fav. class = Fighter). Bard8 / Ranger7 or B7/R8 is strong with Avatarolt's high DEX and CHA. I would have loved to have stopped at R6, but XP penalties would have kicked in. 2.) Every level of Ranger 3.5 up to at least 11th level has a worthwhile pay-off ability. Rgr3 & Rgr6 give his archer 2 virtual archery feats. Regarding SS1, I don't think SS is worth it just for the favored enemy. I realize you are getting the fast movement, but are you sure that level isn't better utilized elsewhere, like increasing your core competencies for instance? If you so desire. This build is customizable. As are most of my option builds. The beauty in them is that if you do as you suggest, you still get alternative benefits ... or stick to the original and you'll get the bennies listed in my prior post ... or tweak it further, say take SoL-2 to make your CHA work even harder for you. Soldier of Light and Templar are both solid for obvious reasons... but Geomancer?? Then don't take it. As mentioned prior, it's a customizable build capable of swapping out other component levels to progress in a Bard SC level advancement class. One that also has Survival as a class skill - helping out the Tracking aspect of the Ranger. Keep in mind, the XP penalty issue with the Wild Elf class. Snow
LordShade 07-19-03, 02:44 PM	What is wild elf's favored class? fighter?
pingpong 07-19-03, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by LordShade What is wild elf's favored class? fighter? Originally posted by Snow Savant To avoid XP Penalties since the character is a Wild Elf (fav. class = Fighter).
JosephKell 07-19-03, 11:29 PM	3.5 Bardic Archer! Level 4! Okay... but it won't be truely effective until level 6... (when it can take Arcane Strike!) Human Bards have 3 feats, non-humans have only 2 so Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot for non-humans, and Humans should also take Rapid Shot or Rapid Reload (Crossbow Bard) At level 6 the Bardic Archer (or Crossbow Bard) should take Arcane Strike!
Gish'sarath 07-20-03, 12:25 AM	I think wild elves favored class is sor. I was looking over the bard and noticed that their bard song abilites are mostly standard actions. If I remember correctly wasn't a bard able to use a bow in conjunction with their music ability in 3.0? Has that changed in 3.5?