Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WANDERER'78 12-19-05, 02:04 PM	Hi, I just caming to play my first adventure in FR and I ask you some help for my character! I love Sublime Chord and I look for: 1°-6° lv Sorcerer (3-th level spontaneus arcane caster) 7°-10° lv Knight of the Weave And then SC for go up in arcane spelcasting (Sor). My question to you is: There's a PrC that give full spellcasting and bardic music? I look for any type of prestige, just max 11° lv (for 9-th level spells) and with spellcasting in the lv to take (or just a level non spellcasting). Any further idea on this PC? Please send me any help you can give me!!!!! Thanks!
carnivore 12-19-05, 05:15 PM	yes if you are an Elf or 1/2 elf.......in the book "Races of Faerun"...look at the PrC "Spellsinger"...it is an excellent PrC....full spell progression and Bardic Music :D
Saxis 12-19-05, 05:55 PM	Fochlucan Lyrist from Complete Adventurer also... Full BAB, 2 good saves, Full progression in Arcane AND Divine spellcasting and Full Bard abilities. It just has some steep requirements...
Senevri 12-20-05, 06:03 AM	Well, Virtuoso at least used to do that. I don't have the completes at hand, and I'm more familiar with the old splats....
WANDERER'78 12-20-05, 09:31 AM	i'm a bit confuse now. Some prc say that they give you bardic music as a 1° lv bard (BOED, trobardour of the star) other say only that they stak with class that give music for the total use (FR spellsinger or CV virtuoso). What's the difference?
Rara Avis 12-20-05, 12:12 PM	i'm a bit confuse now. Some prc say that they give you bardic music as a 1° lv bard (BOED, trobardour of the star) other say only that they stak with class that give music for the total use (FR spellsinger or CV virtuoso). What's the difference? Yea, Virtuoso got nurfed and IMO is no good in comparison to the old version. The CV version stacks only the number of times you can use bardic music and Inspire Courage bonuses along side no spell progression at 1. The old splat version grants all bardic abilities, full progression and no knowledge requirment which makes it accessable to all 1st level arcane casters. Normally, if it says stack, that means that your previous class/es should have bardic abilities or of some similar effect so then it continues it's progresson. Others however don't grant stack progression, but instead gives you the abilities outright without resorting to prior chaining like to BOED class you just mentioned.
WANDERER'78 12-21-05, 04:42 AM	So, any idea of what classes are like Trobadour of Stars? Please any help is wellcame! Thk!
Rara Avis 12-21-05, 10:08 AM	So, any idea of what classes are like Trobadour of Stars? Please any help is wellcame! Thk! What do you mean? What are you looking for? There some PrCs previously mentioned, and also, you can link over to the optimization library to the Bard's Handbook and 3.5 thread to find some more.
WANDERER'78 12-21-05, 01:24 PM	Quote from Rara Avis: "Yea, Virtuoso got nurfed and IMO is no good in comparison to the old version. The CV version stacks only the number of times you can use bardic music and Inspire Courage bonuses along side no spell progression at 1. The old splat version grants all bardic abilities, full progression and no knowledge requirment which makes it accessable to all 1st level arcane casters. Normally, if it says stack, that means that your previous class/es should have bardic abilities or of some similar effect so then it continues it's progresson. Others however don't grant stack progression, but instead gives you the abilities outright without resorting to prior chaining like to BOED class you just mentioned (Trobardour of stars)." So I ask if someone know a PrC that work likeToS and so give bardic music and not only stack, that means that your previous class/es should have bardic abilities or of some similar effect so then it continues it's progresson. Quote from me: "Hi, I just caming to play my first adventure in FR and I ask you some help for my character! I love Sublime Chord and I look for: 1°-6° lv Sorcerer (3-th level spontaneus arcane caster) 7°-10° lv Knight of the Weave And then SC for go up in arcane spelcasting (Sor). My question to you is: There's a PrC that give full spellcasting and bardic music? I look for any type of prestige, just max 11° lv (for 9-th level spells) and with spellcasting in the lv to take (or just a level non spellcasting). Any further idea on this PC? Please send me any help you can give me!!!!! Thanks!" That's allright now? Bye! :D
carnivore 12-21-05, 05:06 PM	yes if you are an Elf or 1/2 elf.......in the book "Races of Faerun"...look at the PrC "Spellsinger"...it is an excellent PrC....full spell progression and Bardic Music :Dhows that look at the description closely......it gives Bardic Music...even if you never had it before...and it stacks with the bards class ability another class that also provides Bardic Music......Warrior Skald, also in Races of Faerun :D
Rara Avis 12-22-05, 12:16 AM	Thats a good one too, but doesn't allow spell progression. That one is more combat oriented. If you're interested, you can go with what I use: Bard7/Rogue2 or Master Thrower2/Druid1/Sublime Chord1-2/Fochlucan Lyrist8-9 -This build could increase Sublime Chord to 10th level spells as well as up to 10 lvl Druid caster level. -BaB is +15-16. -16-17th level Bardic abilities, DC, times per day, etc. or Bard8/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8 -Epic ready -Virtuoso goodies -stacked Bardic times per day -stacked Inspire Courage -10th level Sublime Chord casting These are just a few examples. I don't know if this is going to help. Again, you should really check out the 3.5 Bard Thread and the like for a better in depth analyzes.
WANDERER'78 12-22-05, 08:27 AM	My problem with spellsinger is that I'm enter in it as Sorcerer and so I don't know if the music ability is granted anyway to me!!!! That's the problem!!! Music ability without be a bard!!!
Gerdreg 12-22-05, 09:52 AM	Bard8/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8 -Epic ready -Virtuoso goodies -stacked Bardic times per day -stacked Inspire Courage -10th level Sublime Chord casting Actually this is not possible, the spell progression for Virtuoso can only be used to progress a class obtained before taking the second level (CV pg. 91). This is similar but not as bad as the EK which only allows progression of a class obtained before taking the first level of EK (even though spell progression doesn't stsrt until level 2). A do-able build would be Bard 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Cord 1 (or 2)/ Virtuoso 2-10 (or 2-9).
PhoenixInferno 12-22-05, 12:01 PM	Actually this is not possible, the spell progression for Virtuoso can only be used to progress a class obtained before taking the second level (CV pg. 91). This is similar but not as bad as the EK which only allows progression of a class obtained before taking the first level of EK (even though spell progression doesn't stsrt until level 2). A do-able build would be Bard 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Cord 1 (or 2)/ Virtuoso 2-10 (or 2-9). I think you can go Bard 8/Virtuoso 1/Recaster 1/Sublime Chord 2/Recaster 2-5/Virtuoso to CL 20.
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 12:29 PM	I think you can go Bard 8/Virtuoso 1/Recaster 1/Sublime Chord 2/Recaster 2-5/Virtuoso to CL 20. I think that would be caster level 18 without Practised spellcaster, as Recaster and Virtuoso both have a dead caster level at first. But you'd still get full Sublime chord casting. Very nice build by the way. Recaster is such a good PrC you almost want all of your arcane casters to be Changelings!
PhoenixInferno 12-22-05, 12:49 PM	Credit goes to mighty Caelic who bringeth the Commandments of Optimization! (It really was his idea)
Rara Avis 12-22-05, 01:12 PM	Actually this is not possible, the spell progression for Virtuoso can only be used to progress a class obtained before taking the second level (CV pg. 91). This is similar but not as bad as the EK which only allows progression of a class obtained before taking the first level of EK (even though spell progression doesn't stsrt until level 2). A do-able build would be Bard 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Cord 1 (or 2)/ Virtuoso 2-10 (or 2-9). I stand corrected. By the way, where can I find that Recaster PrC. As for WANDERER, relax, you need a prior level that grants you Bardic music. Spellsinger only continues the progression. The key word in the stated passage is "continue". If you turn your attention to Warrior Skald on the next page, you can tell the difference. Again, WS grants the abilities as well as stack them, SS only stacks. You got it?
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 01:17 PM	I thought the build looked familiar. Though it's not exactly that exotic and complex to be really special or strange. That makes it even better, as most DM's would probably allow it more likely than something with a dozen one level dips. It's still a great way to make a bard with a better singing and casting than normally, without sacrificing too many skill points. It would make a great "fifth" or a "face" character that's able to help the group with singing, spells and skills. Edit: Recaster is from Races of Eberron.
sCRuLooSe 12-22-05, 01:43 PM	Actually this is not possible, the spell progression for Virtuoso can only be used to progress a class obtained before taking the second level (CV pg. 91). This is similar but not as bad as the EK which only allows progression of a class obtained before taking the first level of EK (even though spell progression doesn't stsrt until level 2). Are you sure about that? The way I was reading it was that each time you gain a level you choose 1 class that has spellcasting progression to add the spell level to. Thus the 2nd level of Virtuoso can be added to the bard progression and the rest could be added to the sublime chord. Under this interpretaion, a 5th Wizard/5th Bard/10th Virtuoso could act as a 10th Wizard/10th Bard or a 15th Wizard/5th Bard for purposes of casting spells. Basicaly do you have to make the choice when you gain 2nd level or can you make the choice at every level. Am I misinterpreting it?
Gerdreg 12-22-05, 01:55 PM	I may be the one misinterpreting it, but this is the way we read it. We figured the terminology for the Vituoso (like the EK) was different by design.
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 02:45 PM	Beginning at 2nd level, a Virtuoso gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. Seems pretty clear to me.
sCRuLooSe 12-22-05, 03:54 PM	Seems pretty clear to me. I can see both interpretations. I think the quoted sentence can mean both. The quote does not indicate when the decision is made. I tend to presume that "Beginning at 2nd level" indicates that the player should choose a class to add onto each level. However, just as easily the same prepositional phrase can be used to indicate a choice is made at 2nd and each level from 2nd on that choice is applied. The question is should the sentence be interpreted as: At 2nd level choose an arcane spellcasting class. Each level a Virtuoso gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in that arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. or At every level not including 1st, choose an arcane spellcasting class. Each level, a Virtuoso gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in that arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level. The first interpretaion only allows you to make the choice once, the second interpretation allows you to choose a different class each level.
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 04:16 PM	Uhm, because some temporary stupidity I seem to have failed to quote the other part of the text as I intended to. ...he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known. The word each I think indicates that you can choose at every level a class that you'll add the increase. Though you're right, it's still far from clear, and both interpretations can be made. Why do Wizards have to be so ambiguous!
sCRuLooSe 12-22-05, 05:23 PM	Why do Wizards have to be so ambiguous! They just use the US legal system as a template and work from there? Based on that interpretation though, Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 is legal. This 2nd level virtuoso adds to your bard levels while the 3rd through 10th add to the Sublime Chord. As a variation on that theme, if you are going exalted to get Words of Creation: Bard 6/Paladin 2/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 is fun.
Pandaemoni 12-22-05, 05:34 PM	Seems pretty clear to me. The class desription also says: If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add the level for purposes of determining spells per day and spells known. That suggests that the player doesn't get the choice with respect to classes added *after* he became a virtuoso. Note that that sentence is not saying "before adding the prestige class level" like the earlier sentence. I don't think its that it is poorly written, so much as that the game designers didn't think about the ways for powergamers to exploit the rules by taking up multiple prestige classes after taking virtuoso.
J-A-R-N-O 12-22-05, 06:21 PM	That suggests that the player doesn't get the choice with respect to classes added *after* he became a virtuoso. Note that that sentence is not saying "before adding the prestige class level" like the earlier sentence. I don't think its that it is poorly written, so much as that the game designers didn't think about the ways for powergamers to exploit the rules by taking up multiple prestige classes after taking virtuoso. Ah, quite true. Looking at it, so it does. Hmm. That makes it much harder to brake. So they do have made something to prevent this kind of a (prestige) class hopping.
Pandaemoni 12-22-05, 07:58 PM	Ah, quite true. Looking at it, so it does. Hmm. That makes it much harder to brake. So they do have made something to prevent this kind of a (prestige) class hopping. I honestly think it has more to do with it being non-lawyers who write the rules. A good lawyer would never allow such vague terms to be used and likely caught the distinction between "before adding the presitige level" and "before becoming a virtuoso." My guess is that the writer/editor took those two phrases could be used interchangably without worry, but it becomes criitical in any "split virtuoso" build.
sCRuLooSe 12-23-05, 01:19 AM	Oh well, another of the ask the DM category questions. So far, every DM I have had has allowed the player to split the prestige class.