Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caelic 04-26-06, 09:35 PM	Just a build I've been toying with; I'd be grateful for feedback. First off, here's what the build is not: it's not a Gish, it's not a spellcaster, it's not an attempt to rule the world. It's a Paladin build, first and foremost; it's simply a build that attempts to add some versatility, flexibility, and flavor to said Paladin. It's also a build that focuses on one stat--Charisma. 1. Bard 1: Able Learner, Snowflake Wardance 2. Paladin 1 3. Paladin 2: Devoted Performer 4. Paladin 3 5. Paladin 4: Turn Undead 6. Paladin 5: Special Mount, Initiate of Milil 7. Bard 2 8. Bard 3 9. Bard 4: Words of Creation 10. Paladin 6 11. Paladin 7 12. Paladin 8: Power Attack 13. Paladin 9 14. Paladin 10 15. Paladin 11: Song of the Heart 16. Paladin 12 17. Paladin 13 18. Paladin 14: Divine Might 19: Paladin 15 20: Paladin 16 The character has the bardic music abilities of a 20th level bard, coupled with the smiting abilities of a 20th level paladin (thanks to the combination of Devoted Performer and Initiate of Milil.) He winds up with a final BAB of +19, solid hit points, and saves of +11/+9/+9 (plus Divine Grace.) He can add Charisma to hit with Snowflake Wardance, Charisma to damage with Divine Might. By the most conservative reading, he can add +9 to hit and damage with Inspire Courage, +5 temporary hit dice and a +5 competence bonus to hit with Inspire Greatness, and a +9 to AC and saving throws with Inspire Heroics. His limited bard spells are almost entirely used to enhance his bardic music abilities. Comments? Thoughts? There are a lot of possible variants--one I was thinking of was three levels of Seeker of the Song, for Combine Songs--but I wanted to present the pure two-class build first.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-26-06, 09:49 PM	Snowflake wardance may not be taken at first level, as it requires 6 ranks in dance IIRC. I like it a lot though. A solid example of a cha-based build and the flavor fits the bill. Given that you have that really great mount sitting around, I wonder why you didn't try to cram some mounted combat feats in there? Ya just can't beat mounted fun. Your newly modified build in the gish contest thread looks great by the way... really. It's refreshing to see the dependance of persistant spells removed, while at the same time upping the ante to 9th level divine and arcane spells. It's similar to Cellardweller's Poison Ivy build (from the fey contest), though I don't think he used arcane heirophant. (I'd have to look at the build again to be sure).
ninjarabbit 04-26-06, 09:50 PM	I would go more bard and less paladin
Caelic 04-26-06, 09:54 PM	You might be right, TG; that would be unfortunate, as the next level at which I could realistically take SFWD would be level 9, and that would be by bumping back Words of Creation. Unfortunately, I don't have Frostburn with me, so I can't check. Yes, I could take more bard and less paladin, but the idea here isn't a bard with paladin abilities; it's a paladin enhanced with bardic abilities. I want a big, burly, heavy-armored fighter who swings a greatsword, pulling off huge Power Attacks and not caring because he has hefty bonuses to attack from Snowflake Wardance and his bardic music. I'd love to put some mounted feats in, TG, but I just don't see what I can give up to get them. If flaws were permitted, maybe...
nbhs275 04-26-06, 10:11 PM	but heres your fatal flaw. Palidans must be lawful good Bards can't be lawful Other then that its a nice build
Caelic 04-26-06, 10:15 PM	Devoted Performer allows me to freely multiclass between Bard and Paladin while remaining Lawful Good. The build as it stands does require a shift from Neutral Good to Lawful Good at level 2, but that could be avoided simply by moving the first Bard level to level 3.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-26-06, 10:23 PM	I'm not sure what initiate of milil does, but the two feats that I think could be dropped (in favor of mounted feats) are able learner and initiate of milil.
Caelic 04-26-06, 10:28 PM	Initiate of Milil absolutely can't be dropped; that's the feat that allows my bard and paladin levels to stack for purposes of how potent my bardic music effects are. No Initiate of Milil means that I have the bardic music abilities of a fourth level bard; I can just use them twenty times per day.
Shadow_Gryphon 04-26-06, 10:38 PM	Another difficulty lies in the fact that Snowflake Wardance can't be used with a two-handed weapon, thus making it less useful for a Power Attack with a greatsword.
nihility 04-26-06, 10:42 PM	Another difficulty lies in the fact that Snowflake Wardance can't be used with a two-handed weapon, thus making it less useful for a Power Attack with a greatsword. Indeed, the feat specifies one-handed slashing weapons. However, perhaps you could wield a one-handed slashing weapon in two hands?
Caelic 04-26-06, 10:43 PM	Good point on that one; hmm. I lack the feat slots to do Power Attacking Two Weapon Fighting. I might have to either go with sword and shield and accept the lower PA, or ditch Snowflake Wardance entirely and take another feat.
Shadow_Gryphon 04-26-06, 10:51 PM	Unfortunately I don't think even that is an option, Nihility. I believe the feat states "a slashing weapon wielded in one hand," though I could be wrong.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-26-06, 10:59 PM	I see... where is that initiate feat from? How about this for your combat ability: Grab EWP (Bastard Sword), WF (Bastard Sword), take a few ranks in craft (armor and weapons), and then take 1 level in Exotic weapon's master to grab uncanny blow. Mix uncanny blow with power attack, divine might, smite, and bardic music, and you're looking at one really nasty attack. Let's see that would be +9 to hit and damage (from music) +cha to damage (divine might) 2xSTR to damage (uncanny blow) -15 to attack (power attack) +cha to attack +30 damage (power attack) +5 enhancement (assumed sword ability) +5 collision (+2 enhancement, so a total +7 sword) +2 to attack (assuming he charged) +19 to attack (base attack) +STR to attack +19 damage (smite) +1 Focus ------------------------------- Attack bonus: (STR + CHA + 19) Damage: (2xSTR + CHA + 9 + 5 + 5 + 30 + 19) = 68 + 2xSTR + CHA That's some serious smackitude. Bottom Line: Drop able learner and snowflake wardance in favor of EWP (Bastard Sword) and WF(Bastard Sword), and then sub out a paladin level for EWM. It's too bad you can't drop the words of creation... they add so much, yet just imagine what this beast could do with spirited charge on his beautiful mount!
Caelic 04-26-06, 11:04 PM	Initiate of Milil is from Heroes of Valor. There's quite a bit of good stuff in there that's been overlooked; mining some of it is my current pet project.
PhoenixInferno 04-27-06, 12:37 AM	I noticed Initiate of Milil when Champions of Valor came out - I liked it very much. I used Seeker of the Song to get Combine Songs and some Seeker Music as well.
ck2001wendt 04-27-06, 02:24 AM	What is Able Learner doing for you? I imagine it's there to save on Perform, but your Paladin isn't a skill heavy build, so I would think you could get away with CCing.
Blade2718 04-27-06, 05:28 AM	I'd imagine it would be for social skills like Bluff and Diplomacy. If you're not using them much, then I too would drop Able Learner (egads, I can't believe I said that!).
LogicNinja 04-27-06, 05:50 AM	I recently built a similar character for a game that never happened--Paladin 4, Bard 10, Seeker of the Song 2 (combine songs). Essentially, between Initiate and Devoted Performer, a (nearly-)pure paladin can do as well as a bard when it comes to bardic effects. However, bard levels give you bardic spellcasting, paladin levels give you paladin spellcasting. A CHA-based build is much better off with bardic casting. Losing a couple of points of Inspire Courage is, IMO, tolerable if the reward is right--and Paladin4/Bard 10/Seeker 6 is a good way to go about it. Base +3 Inspire Courage (+6 with Words of Creation), Divine Might, Snowflake Wardance, all that jazz. Seeker 6, though, gives "Hymn of Spelldeath", which can shut down casters. With Combine Songs, you can keep up the Hymn of Spelldeath and use a damage ray (Ballad of Frozen Loss, say) to contribute damage in the meantime--Seeker 7 is better for this thanks to its Ballad of Agony Reborn's refrain (which does 10d6 acid, and 10d6 acid again next round--20d6 for a use of bardic music isn't bad)... but you can't get Seeker 7 without losing the +3 Inspire Courage (really, +3 -> +6 with WoC, +7 with Masterwork Drum, +8 with Song of the Heart, +9 with the Inspirational Boost level 1 bard spell). If you snag Two-Weapon Fighting and ITWF, say, first round you Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness with the simultaneous songs ability and move over to the fight, and then you activate Snowflake Wardance and slash away with Divine Might (you can afford the Turn Undead attempts with your high Charisma). But then, that's a different build. Hmm. Maybe I'll put together a Stormsinger/Seeker of the Song focusing on effective uses of non-Bard music.
Caelic 04-27-06, 06:53 PM	What is Able Learner doing for you? I imagine it's there to save on Perform, but your Paladin isn't a skill heavy build, so I would think you could get away with CCing. Able Learner's there because there are a number of skills I'd like to keep maxed out: Diplomacy, Use Magic Device, and Perform being the three biggies. It's not a mandatory feat for the build, but it's a useful one when trying to create a highly skilled warrior.