Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 01-16-07, 03:29 PM	I'm just thinking about an arcane persistent buff specialist. Bard seems like the best way to go here. My idea is as follows: human bard 8/virtuoso 2/sublime chord 2/virtuoso 8 Feats: 1. Extend Spell, Persistent Spell 3. Song of the Heart 6. Words of Creation or Extra Music (depends on whether the character is exalted or not) 9. Lyric Spell 12. Extra Music 15. Extra Music 18. Extra Music This character gets 19 base bardic and virtuoso performances. Three or four "extra musics" take the total up to 31 or 35. Naturally, Inspire Courage +8 is nice and all, but the real idea here is to use Lyric Spell to cast persistent buffs on allied fighters, barbarians, and the like. Anyway, what would be the best buffs? Haste, displacement, and polymorph all seems useful, but I'm not sure what else.
TunFiskeMad 01-16-07, 04:24 PM	What about metamagic song that allows you to use songs to pay for metamagic feats ? Must admit that I cant recognize all the feats here at work so I'm not sure if that is allready covered.
Caelic 01-16-07, 05:24 PM	Hmm. Let me see if I understand what you're trying to do here correctly, Jules: It seems like you're attempting to use Lyric Spell to cast spells heavily-modified by metamagic (to beyond the point where you could normally cast them) on the strength of the following: 1. Lyric Spell strongly implies that it allows you to cast spells modified by metamagic, because it specifically excludes casting spells modified by one metamagic feat--Silent Spell. 2. Lyric Spell allows you to cast any spell you know. 3. Lyric Spell doesn't explicitly say that you're restricted to casting spells of a level you could normally cast. Is this correct?
JulesCARV 01-16-07, 05:28 PM	Yes. That's right. A bit like the DMM cleric, except more focused on buffing others than buffing himself.
Caelic 01-16-07, 05:31 PM	I don't know, Jules. On the one hand, there's precedent in DMM, as you point out. On the other hand, this smacks just a little too much of "The rules don't explicitly say I can't" for my tastes--as well as making Lyric Spell infinitely superior to Metamagic Song at doing what Metamagic Song is supposed to do, as WELL as its usual function as a source of extra spells. That's to say nothing of the fact that a Firre Eladrin with Heighten Spell and Lyric Spell could cast an infinite number of spells of infinitely-high level.
JulesCARV 01-16-07, 06:32 PM	So far, of course, only one of the spells I mentioned -- polymorph -- becomes over 9th level if persisted. Persistent displacement or haste are 9th level.
ChristopherGroves 01-16-07, 08:19 PM	The real abuse here would be the Bard / SC / War Weaver combo with Lyric spell ... shudder.
Edea 01-16-07, 08:37 PM	Well, do you actually know persistent haste, or do you know haste and also happen to possess the Persistent Spell metamagic feat? In fact, Lyric Spell says nothing about having to even acquire the metamagic feat being applied to the spell.
Caelic 01-16-07, 09:03 PM	That really is taking "The rules don't say I can't!" too far, Edea. Lyric Spell does not, in fact, say you can apply metamagic feats; it simply implies it. The fact that it doesn't explicitly say you must have the metamagic feat that it implies you can apply is not a compelling argument. The default is that you must have a metamagic feat in order to apply it; unless something in the feat explicitly alters that, the default remains in effect.
Edea 01-16-07, 09:13 PM	No, no, no, I'm saying he can't apply metamagic to a Lyric Spell at all, because he won't know the spell in that form, and the second question I posed is just demonstrating that it's kinda silly to go with the "it doesn't say I can't" argument. RAW, you must know the spell, and even if you could actually learn persistent haste as a spell known...well, guess what spell level you'd have to learn it at :P.
Caelic 01-16-07, 09:24 PM	Okay, I see what you're saying. The thing is, though, I think the text of Lyric Spell does make it pretty clear that you can modify the spells you cast with Lyric Spell with some metamagic feats...because they felt the need to specifically tell you which metamagic feats you can't use with the feat. If you couldn't apply any, it would've been a lot simpler and clearer just to say "You can't apply metamagic to these spells."
Edea 01-16-07, 09:26 PM	Actually, I call error on that last part of the feat text; WotC gets extremely jumpy around bards and their verbal components, and probably threw that in at the last minute. Sadly, not a great argument, but so far that's all I'm coming up with, as the two parts of the feat text are contradictory.
eRaz0r 01-16-07, 10:10 PM	IIRC, the language of Lyric Spell seems to allow for the application of metamagic feats to the spell in question. However, unlike feats which allow the application of metamagic without spell level costs, any spell cast with Lyric Spell would have to be one you can cast normally. Therefore, you need to be able to cast a spell of that level (adjusted by metamagic normally) in order to cast it with lyric spell. Being a spontaneous caster, it would also take a full round action to cast such a spell, and all the other rules of metamagic would apply - meaning Persistent spells would only affect the caster (range: self means no Persistent Haste Buffs on the fighters..) Unfortunately, the Metamagic Song feat does, in fact, suck by comparison, as it suffers from the same limitations (cannot exceed the highest spell level you can normally cast; can't use Still Spell) but you must have (and expend) a lower level spell slot to use it. The only advantage is that it's 'cheaper' in the number of bardic music uses, which pales when compared with the extra flexibility of Lyric Spell. Edea : WotC gets extremely jumpy around bards and their verbal components, and probably threw that in at the last minute. Hmm - possible, I admit. However, whenever a spellcaster "casts a spell", it's assumed by the rules that the spell might be modified by metamagic. It's still a spell known, and provided that the regular rules for applying metamagic to the spell are followed (increase in spell level cost, full round casting time for spontaneous casters etc etc) then we should think carefully about interfering with that. The biggest Cheese in this build is simply getting extra spells at all. Since the metamagic is capped as normal, the worst that can happen is that the guy has a bunch of 3rd level buffs persistent. Since that costs 10 Music uses to do, (1 (to activate Lyric Spell) +3 (spell level) + 6 (Persistent Modifier)) he's going to have no more than 4 of them - hardly game breaking. Divine MM > this cheese as there's no cap to the effective spell level (as written), and with some broken items (Nightsticks), the number per day available is also cheddar. Furthermore, the Cleric with his open and unending "spells known" is far more flexible daily than the Bard/SC with his rather restricted list. What's the point of being a spontaneous caster with a small spell list if you're pre-buffing anyways? Capitalize on your spontaneity, say I ! Personally, I'd rather take my Lyric Spell and cast an extra couple of 6th through 9th level real spells and ditch the metamagic (except for stuff like empower or something). The DMM Cleric just does the persistent buffer better by far.
JulesCARV 01-17-07, 03:42 AM	D'oh! Forgot about the fact that persistent spells have to be personal or fixed-ranged.
Phoenix00 01-17-07, 04:14 AM	So if i understand the other posters correctly, normally a Bard/Sublime Chord has to be lvl 15 before he can get persist happy, for that is when he first gains the ability to cast a 7th lvl spell. You can reduce this to alot sooner with 2 feats. Versatile spellcaster allows you to cast spells or spells with metamagic by sacrificing two lower lvl slots to get a higher lvl. You don't need to do this though with lyric spell, you just need to be able to cast x+1 spells. Thus you can start getting persist happy with 1st lvl spells at lvl 13 if you have enough cha for an extra bonus spell (the time you get access to 6th lvl spells, versatile spellcaster allows you to use 2 6th lvl slots to cast a 7th lvl spell). It takes 8 bardic musics to persist a 1st lvl spell. Practical Metamagic (requires dragonblood subtype and spontaneous casting of 3rd lvl spells). Reduces the metamagic adjustment of Persist spell, now you can persist a 1st lvl spell in a 6th lvl slot. With these two feats you can combined, you can start getting persist happy at lvl 11 if your cha is high enough. You will have 2 5th lvl slots and thus are able to persist a 6th lvl spell. It takes 7bardic music attempts to do this. In theory if you also have access to easy metamagic and the other two feats, you can start doing this at 10th lvl with just a plain 10th lvl bard.
eRaz0r 01-17-07, 02:37 PM	I hardly feel that persisting a single 1st level spell at 15th level is "persist happy" :) I mean, what's the point? A single 7th level spell at 15th level is worth far more than any first level spell that lasts all day. A +4 Shield bonus to AC that can be easily dispelled is about the best you can get (Persistent Shield). Mage Armor already lasts 15 hours, so there's little point in making that persistent, and lets face it. Any 15th level character is likely to own magic items that give greater benefits than any 1st level effect. That's really my point : Lyric Spell + Metamagic isn't game-breaking because the metamagic is capped by effective spell level as if you were casting the spell normally. And metamagic 'd spells are almost always less effective than a real spell of the same level. It's the way magic works. It's not a simple linear progression A persistent 3rd level spell is vastly less powerful than a 9th level spell, even if it does last all day. About the only decent metamagic feat is Empower Spell, since it can break the dice-cap. Of course *any* metamagic feat that can be used without spell-slot adjustment is powerful. Therefore, any ability which can reduce or eliminate the spell-level cost of metamagic is powerful.