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bardish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aleko
11-14-05, 12:11 AM first time player as a bard...
what build is the most playable starting from level 1
is skill focus use magic device and quick draw appropriate first level feats
my stats as a first level bard are str 16 dex 16 con 14 int 16 wis 10 cha 17
I am using a whip dagger, dagger, composite short bow, 4 darts, and studded leather
are there any bard tricks of the trade I should know about?
my dm ignores diplomacy rolls and insist we roleplay everything out so a diplomancer is out
I doubt I will play past level 8 or 9 so I am looking for short run gratification
my party so far includes a wizard focusing on enchantment and transmutation, and a rogue
what spells prove most useful leveling in this sort of party?
what skills should I use and combine to make myself more effective?
any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
PhoenixInferno
11-14-05, 12:23 AM Go nuts. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=511451)
aleko
11-14-05, 12:35 AM interesting build on your rogue/ranger/ etc.
what book is nymph's kiss from?
PhoenixInferno
11-14-05, 12:37 AM Book of Exalted Deeds. Thank you.
aleko
11-14-05, 01:32 AM is the board short on bard experts today??
most of the time someone has something they can say or can at least refer me to a topic that might help.
tsuyoshikentsu
11-14-05, 01:35 AM Insert something involving Sublime Chord here.
nittanytbone
11-14-05, 01:52 AM What books do you have available to you?

As far as feats go, the "skill booster" feats are rarely impressive, especially for skills which are in-class. I think that you will find your Skill Focus: UMD to be somewhat outgrown and useless once you get just a few levels. You can probably do better than this, either with a combat feat or with a spell-casting feat. For combat, Combat Expertise-->Improved Trip could be fun when combined with the whip, and its a combo you could put together at first level. A lot of your feat selections depend on if you have access to a prestige class with specific requirements, because you'll be aiming to meet those ASAP.

Your party lacks anyone with melee staying power, so you should probably avoid straight up combat. With a rogue (probably a skills-based rogue) and an enchanter, it sounds as if social situations are the way to go... However, if your DM is nerfing diplomacy, ask him about other skills such as bluff, sense motive, etc. It may turn out that your party's strong suit is pretty much nerfed. If that's the case, you and the rogue might be well advised to start taking fighter levels of some type rather than worrying about people skills.

Building on the previous thought, you might want to switch int and con. You will never regret having more HP; if social skill ranks are rendered useless because you roleplay everything, then you won't need as many skill points.
X-Codes
11-14-05, 02:15 AM Bards generally aren't the strongest people around, so I'd lean more towards Combat Expertise --> Improved Disarm, to which Whip/Whip Dagger gives an extra +2. You can even get your Inspire Courage in on the act for that one.

Anyway, line by line:

You don't qualify for Quick Draw at level 1. Note the +1 BAB requirement. It's not really that good of a feat unless you have lots of situational weapons anyway. Skill Focus is also a very mediocre feat after the early levels (1-3).

Nice stat distribution, but I'm almost tempted to tell you to put the 10 in stength, 16 in con, and 14 in wisdom.

If you go with the above suggestions, use a regular shortbow and get a rapier. Otherwise do the same but get a longsword.

I agree with the taking of fighter levels. Skill-based classes will be very much weakened if charisma-based skills are kicked to the side. I'm tempted to say that the wizard might also want to do this and pick up levels of Eldrich Knight or Sacred Exorcist or something like that.

Five ranks in Knowledge (History) is great for Bards, since Bardic Knowledge can possibly cover every other knowledge skill in the game. Otherwise, ranks in Spellcraft, Concentration, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device should be high with a smattering of other useful trained-only skills (Decipher Script and Speak Language come to mind).

Bard Tricks: Alter Self is almost a foolproof disguise, and is a great spell when used in combination with bluffing. Silent Image can create flanking opportunities among other things. Haste is a spell you want to cast early and often in combat. Finally, for a combat, you can use Master's Touch from Complete Adventurer to gain auto-proficiency with a weapon. Big nasty ones like Elven Court Swords and Spiked Chains are ideal candidates.
PhoenixInferno
11-14-05, 02:40 AM is the board short on bard experts today??
most of the time someone has something they can say or can at least refer me to a topic that might help.
I gave you the library card - its your job to find the book.

In particular, the Bard Handbook.
ck2001wendt
11-14-05, 03:20 AM Bard Tricks:

You will have a Bard, Rogue and Wizard in your party. Congratulations: you are this party's tank.

Look at the Warrior Skald from Races of Faerun and the War Chanter from Complete Warrior. War Chanter gives you D8 HD, but War Skald advances your Bardic Music.

Bard 3/Fighter 2/X 4

My personal choice to play a bard would be Rogue 2/Bard X. Take the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny) and Craven (Champions of Ruin) and you can keep up your mechanical skills and SA while getting your full Bardic abilities.

Other Feats:

Nymph's Kiss (BoExalted Deeds) is a good social feat. Song of the Heard (Eberron) + Words of Creation (Bof Exalted Deeds) makes your Inspire Courage 2(X+1) as strong. Extra Music is nice for early levels. Lingering Song is also useful, so you can stop singing after 1 round and still get a good return on investment.

Other builds:

Bard 6/Wizard 1/Virtuoso 10/Arcane PrC 3: 16th level Bardic casting and 7th level Arcane spells, with good SP most of the way through. Better than straight Bard.

Bard 2/Archivist X: Access to the Archivist's very nice spell list and Dark Knowledge, which is similar to Bardic Music (you can activate both in one round) and is great for buffing. Good skill points, and you'll have basically full Divine casting off any Divine spell list. Will require Practiced Spellcaster (Archivist), Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Extra Music and probably Able Learner to be effective at both.
aleko
11-14-05, 02:34 PM thanks for pointing out the quick draw issue. So I should drop my current feats and lean more towards combat expertise and improved trip. Our dm already ruled out more than one rogue character in the party. We gained a monk and a fighter in our party. Oddly enough the fighter wants to prestige into skald, but I am already locked in as a bard... I might consider the virtuoso build, but my dm is opposed perfect min maxing without rigorous role play and might not let me take the wizard level before virtuoso all together. If my dm will allow it, should I take able learner?
ck2001wendt
11-14-05, 03:06 PM If my dm will allow it, should I take able learner?

It strongly depends on what skills you are trying to max. If you have a party Rogue that gets the job done, you don't need Search/Disable. You may or may not want Hide/MS/Spot/Listen. I would recommend UMD, Perform, and some social skills. If you can keep maxing these through Virtuoso, I wouldn't worry about Able Learner.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aleko 11-14-05, 12:11 AM	first time player as a bard... what build is the most playable starting from level 1 is skill focus use magic device and quick draw appropriate first level feats my stats as a first level bard are str 16 dex 16 con 14 int 16 wis 10 cha 17 I am using a whip dagger, dagger, composite short bow, 4 darts, and studded leather are there any bard tricks of the trade I should know about? my dm ignores diplomacy rolls and insist we roleplay everything out so a diplomancer is out I doubt I will play past level 8 or 9 so I am looking for short run gratification my party so far includes a wizard focusing on enchantment and transmutation, and a rogue what spells prove most useful leveling in this sort of party? what skills should I use and combine to make myself more effective? any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
PhoenixInferno 11-14-05, 12:23 AM	Go nuts. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=511451)
aleko 11-14-05, 12:35 AM	interesting build on your rogue/ranger/ etc. what book is nymph's kiss from?
PhoenixInferno 11-14-05, 12:37 AM	Book of Exalted Deeds. Thank you.
aleko 11-14-05, 01:32 AM	is the board short on bard experts today?? most of the time someone has something they can say or can at least refer me to a topic that might help.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-14-05, 01:35 AM	Insert something involving Sublime Chord here.
nittanytbone 11-14-05, 01:52 AM	What books do you have available to you? As far as feats go, the "skill booster" feats are rarely impressive, especially for skills which are in-class. I think that you will find your Skill Focus: UMD to be somewhat outgrown and useless once you get just a few levels. You can probably do better than this, either with a combat feat or with a spell-casting feat. For combat, Combat Expertise-->Improved Trip could be fun when combined with the whip, and its a combo you could put together at first level. A lot of your feat selections depend on if you have access to a prestige class with specific requirements, because you'll be aiming to meet those ASAP. Your party lacks anyone with melee staying power, so you should probably avoid straight up combat. With a rogue (probably a skills-based rogue) and an enchanter, it sounds as if social situations are the way to go... However, if your DM is nerfing diplomacy, ask him about other skills such as bluff, sense motive, etc. It may turn out that your party's strong suit is pretty much nerfed. If that's the case, you and the rogue might be well advised to start taking fighter levels of some type rather than worrying about people skills. Building on the previous thought, you might want to switch int and con. You will never regret having more HP; if social skill ranks are rendered useless because you roleplay everything, then you won't need as many skill points.
X-Codes 11-14-05, 02:15 AM	Bards generally aren't the strongest people around, so I'd lean more towards Combat Expertise --> Improved Disarm, to which Whip/Whip Dagger gives an extra +2. You can even get your Inspire Courage in on the act for that one. Anyway, line by line: You don't qualify for Quick Draw at level 1. Note the +1 BAB requirement. It's not really that good of a feat unless you have lots of situational weapons anyway. Skill Focus is also a very mediocre feat after the early levels (1-3). Nice stat distribution, but I'm almost tempted to tell you to put the 10 in stength, 16 in con, and 14 in wisdom. If you go with the above suggestions, use a regular shortbow and get a rapier. Otherwise do the same but get a longsword. I agree with the taking of fighter levels. Skill-based classes will be very much weakened if charisma-based skills are kicked to the side. I'm tempted to say that the wizard might also want to do this and pick up levels of Eldrich Knight or Sacred Exorcist or something like that. Five ranks in Knowledge (History) is great for Bards, since Bardic Knowledge can possibly cover every other knowledge skill in the game. Otherwise, ranks in Spellcraft, Concentration, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device should be high with a smattering of other useful trained-only skills (Decipher Script and Speak Language come to mind). Bard Tricks: Alter Self is almost a foolproof disguise, and is a great spell when used in combination with bluffing. Silent Image can create flanking opportunities among other things. Haste is a spell you want to cast early and often in combat. Finally, for a combat, you can use Master's Touch from Complete Adventurer to gain auto-proficiency with a weapon. Big nasty ones like Elven Court Swords and Spiked Chains are ideal candidates.
PhoenixInferno 11-14-05, 02:40 AM	is the board short on bard experts today?? most of the time someone has something they can say or can at least refer me to a topic that might help. I gave you the library card - its your job to find the book. In particular, the Bard Handbook.
ck2001wendt 11-14-05, 03:20 AM	Bard Tricks: You will have a Bard, Rogue and Wizard in your party. Congratulations: you are this party's tank. Look at the Warrior Skald from Races of Faerun and the War Chanter from Complete Warrior. War Chanter gives you D8 HD, but War Skald advances your Bardic Music. Bard 3/Fighter 2/X 4 My personal choice to play a bard would be Rogue 2/Bard X. Take the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny) and Craven (Champions of Ruin) and you can keep up your mechanical skills and SA while getting your full Bardic abilities. Other Feats: Nymph's Kiss (BoExalted Deeds) is a good social feat. Song of the Heard (Eberron) + Words of Creation (Bof Exalted Deeds) makes your Inspire Courage 2(X+1) as strong. Extra Music is nice for early levels. Lingering Song is also useful, so you can stop singing after 1 round and still get a good return on investment. Other builds: Bard 6/Wizard 1/Virtuoso 10/Arcane PrC 3: 16th level Bardic casting and 7th level Arcane spells, with good SP most of the way through. Better than straight Bard. Bard 2/Archivist X: Access to the Archivist's very nice spell list and Dark Knowledge, which is similar to Bardic Music (you can activate both in one round) and is great for buffing. Good skill points, and you'll have basically full Divine casting off any Divine spell list. Will require Practiced Spellcaster (Archivist), Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, Extra Music and probably Able Learner to be effective at both.
aleko 11-14-05, 02:34 PM	thanks for pointing out the quick draw issue. So I should drop my current feats and lean more towards combat expertise and improved trip. Our dm already ruled out more than one rogue character in the party. We gained a monk and a fighter in our party. Oddly enough the fighter wants to prestige into skald, but I am already locked in as a bard... I might consider the virtuoso build, but my dm is opposed perfect min maxing without rigorous role play and might not let me take the wizard level before virtuoso all together. If my dm will allow it, should I take able learner?
ck2001wendt 11-14-05, 03:06 PM	If my dm will allow it, should I take able learner? It strongly depends on what skills you are trying to max. If you have a party Rogue that gets the job done, you don't need Search/Disable. You may or may not want Hide/MS/Spot/Listen. I would recommend UMD, Perform, and some social skills. If you can keep maxing these through Virtuoso, I wouldn't worry about Able Learner.