Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FloppyLlama 01-17-05, 11:45 AM	Ok, for me character concepts come first, but then I usually like to make that character as strong as possible for that concept. I'm planning on either playing an Exalted Bard follower of Bahamut, or a Swashbuckler/Bard dashing-and-charming character. I'd love input on ideas as to to what I could do to remain close to the concept but still as strong as possible. Builds aren't necessary but if you take the time to think of one, feel free to post it. EDIT: Just realised that my post was way to ambiguous. I have some questions: a) Is a Bard/Swashbuckler character feasible (keeping up with other characters). b) Which of my two concepts do you suggest? c) Is Dragon Disciple good for a Bard PrC?
UMiskatonic 01-17-05, 12:26 PM	Melee bard isn't easy to do. It's not impossible, but you have a lot of things working against you. 1-light armor 2-relatively poor hit points 3-relatively poor base attack 4-horrible MAD (multi-attribute dependency) If you want to commit to this, I would suggest that you build someone who doesn't focus on directly crushing foes, but instead trips, disarms, and generally hinders opponents to set up his teammates. I would push WIS and STR to the bottom of the list, have at least a 14 CON, INT, CHA and DEX. Use the free weapon finesse to make yourself more accurate, and get combat expertise, improved trip, combat reflexes, and improved disarm as feats. Bards get whip as one of thier weapons, you could work with that. Hold the whip in a spiked gauntlet. Any classes that add CHA, or INT into your saves, AC, attack rolls,...will be useful. There's a thread for X to Y stat by ...Phaedrus? Arcane duellist and Soldier of Light come to mind as prestige classes in addition to vassal of Bahamaut. Dread Pirate is also a possibility. Cheers, UMiskatonic
Alratan 01-17-05, 12:35 PM	If you look for some of the Sublime Chord or Fochulan Lyricist based gish builds, then you'll probably find what you need.
Devant 01-17-05, 01:01 PM	a) Yes, but more difficult, see b. B) Bardic music abilities are far more powerful. I would take a look at Dragonsong Lyrist from The Draconomicon. Decide how many levels of that you want. You'll most likely meet the Prereqs without much work anyways. Song of Strength is quite good, song of Flight is insane. Warchanter is a big duh (must take). c) Dragon Desciple does one thing, turn you into a half-dragon. If you don't want to be a half-dragon, don't play Dragon Desciple. I personally recomend just being a half-dragon to begin with.
JosephKell 01-17-05, 03:48 PM	Melee Bard isn't that hard. The real problem is which class to take first. Swashbuckler or Fighter (I personally prefer Fighter since Bards don't use shields anyway) first will give you 4 more starting hit points (which is a big deal). Swashbuckler vs Fighter. While the Swashbuckler has more skill points, the class features aren't as attractive. Weapon Finesse on a Rapier doesn't compare to a Greatsword. Bard first will net your more skill points, but at the expense of martial combat. If you use Max starting Gold, then Fighter or Swashbuckler first can allow you to get Chain Shirt and a Greatsword (150 gp between the two). 4 levels of Bard are pretty much the limit though. With just four levels you are one level behind on picking up additional attacks (Aiming for that 16th BAB point at level 20 is a bad idea). To continue your Music Abilities, consider moving into Warchanter. Stacking Weapon Focus and Inspire Courage +1 to suppliment your diminished BAB. Improved Initiative is important so that you can start Singing at the start of combat, so that more of your party can benefit from it. Purple Dragon Knight gives similiar abilities to a Bard's. It could be another route to examine (Fighter 2/Bard 4 enters into the Complete Warrior version of the PDK).
FloppyLlama 01-17-05, 04:03 PM	Wow, thanks for the advice, keep it coming! =D I think I've got an interesting idea for a build: Bard 5/Evangelist 3/ Dragonsong Lyrist 2/Seeker of the Song 10 Look alright? I'm still thinking about the build for melee bard. Looking at the Warchanter, I think it fits bard better than the Seeker (turning music into rays is a little funky) so: Bard 5/Evangelist 3/ Dragonsong Lyrist 2/Warchanter 10
Aurelius 01-17-05, 07:28 PM	For the follower of Bahamut, you might do a Bard/Paladin with the new Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer. Then you take Snowflake Wardance and Divine Might, perhaps also extra smiting. Adjust Bard/Paladin as you like for BAB/hps, just be sure to take at least 4 levels of Paladin, (level 5 and 6 are also ok, take 8 for more BAB). You will end up with cha to saves, attack and damage. It is possible to fit some monk in combined with Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC. Alternatively, some Marshal might be fine as well. Examples: Bard 16/Pal 4 (BAB 16, excellent saves, 6th-level bard spells. A little frail. Cha to saves, attack and damage) Bard 12/Monk 4/Pal 4 (same bab and saves, but cha to AC as well) Bard 8/Monk 4/Marshal 4/Pal 4 (BAB 16 again, but even more Cha Synergy, in exchange for less spellcasting)
Caelic 01-17-05, 09:56 PM	Don't forget Platinum Knight from the Draconomicon, if you go the Bardic Paladin route. Granted, you'd be more of a gallant than a swashbuckler, but Charisma to all saves twice is nothing to sneeze at.
JosephKell 01-17-05, 10:15 PM	Bard and Paladin conflict. So unless you meant Bard 16 then Paladin 4, it doesn't work. And if you meant Bard 1/Paladin 4 then more Bard, that is two alignment switches (and they are reverses of each other). Also, Swashbucklering isn't about the Swashbuckler class, it is how you play the character.
Tealgorthian 01-17-05, 10:44 PM	Bard and Paladin conflict. So unless you meant Bard 16 then Paladin 4, it doesn't work. And if you meant Bard 1/Paladin 4 then more Bard, that is two alignment switches (and they are reverses of each other). Also, Swashbucklering isn't about the Swashbuckler class, it is how you play the character. The Devoted Performer feat allows you to switch between Bard and Paladin freely, as well as stacking for bardic music and smite.
Devant 01-17-05, 11:05 PM	The Devoted Performer feat allows you to switch between Bard and Paladin freely, as well as stacking for bardic music and smite. You are joking right? Anyways, if you are seriously considering a melee Bard I suggest using the Divine bard variant from UA. By casting divine spells you will be able to use heavy armor. I just had a genius idea. I'll post it here if it pans out.
Tealgorthian 01-18-05, 01:02 AM	Not that I know of, but I dont have my book on hand to reference, so I could be off a little.
FloppyLlama 01-18-05, 08:05 AM	I need to get CV then! Paladin and Bard, whoda thunk it (Paladin happens to be one of my favorite classes). Soon enough, my precious, soon enough.... I just had a genius idea. I'll post it here if it pans out. Cool, some genius is always nice! =D Scratch Swashy, I'm going Paladin/Bard probably.