Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jay 04-13-05, 04:39 AM	I've been looking at my necropolitan bard, and where he'll be in a couple of levels, and I've noticed that it's possible to get a surprisingly large attack bonus with a bard, without using any of the stuff generally acknowledged as broken (AFAIK). Human bard 10, 30 point buy, using stuff from Eberron, Frostburn, Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer: Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 16 (increased at 4th and 8th) 1 Brd Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm 2 Brd 3 Brd Snowflake Wardance 4 Brd 5 Brd 6 Brd Song of the Heart 7 Brd 8 Brd 9 Brd Arcane Strike 10 Brd Include inspirational boost as one of your spells. (Bladeweave is also nice for a melee bard, but doesn't boost attack bonus as such.) After two rounds of buffing (1: inspire greatness; 2: inspirational boost as a swift action + inspire courage, 3: wardance as a free action + attack), this guy will have an attack bonus of +21 (+9 BAB, +2 Str, +3 Cha, +4 inspire courage, +3 inspire greatness) for 1d8+6 damage, boostable up to +25 for 1d8+6+4d4 damage if he decides to use Arcane Strike, before any magic items. Pretty good for 10th level bard, no? And he's also giving everyone else +4 to attack, damage, saves vs. charm and fear. If you really want to push it, get a staff of divine power and Quickened divine favour and UMD it: for another round of buffing, you get a Brd10 who attacks at +30/+25/+20 for 1d8+12 (+34/+29/+24 for 1d8+12+4d4 with Arcane Strike)! Sure, at ~600 gp per charge, this is a very expensive passtime, but the visual of a bard fighting like Gandalf in the movies, sword and staff in hand, is nice... and so is the feeling of having an attack bonus over +30 at 10th level with a "weak" class! I especially like it that this not only follows the letter of the rules (unless I missed something) but also the spirit, more-or-less: except for using the stuff from so many different books, I don't think the build uses any tricks that could be considered "unfair" or "sneaky". No cherry-picking PrCs for low level abilities, no using synergy that wasn't/couldn't be accounted for when the abilties were written, no using obviously overpowered abilities... It's just that there is a bunch of buffs and they all stack.
Lord Zeb 04-13-05, 06:59 AM	Your Bard Fu is strong. :) The only drawback is the time it takes to build up, and the short duration (Inspire Courage & Greatness will last for only 5 rounds after you stop performing). Otherwise, for that initial part of the combat you are rockin' and rollin' with your high attack bonus. Is Necropolitan just for flavor? Just curious... Cheers, Zeb
jay 04-13-05, 08:42 AM	The only drawback is the time it takes to build up, It's not that bad, I think. If you don't use the divine power/divine favour staff (which is really overkill, and very expensive), all you need is two rounds. That's OK for a warrior-mage type, especially when you consider that this bard hasn't invested all that much into being one: he still fills the typical bardic niches using his skills and spells. Only his feats are tied up for melee. and the short duration (Inspire Courage & Greatness will last for only 5 rounds after you stop performing). That's true. It's best to use greatness first, then courage; you have 4 rounds of fighting under greatness, and you keep up courage as long as you need it... both for yourself and everyone else. Hm. Is there a feat somewhere that allows you to keep up two bardic music effects at the same time, perhaps? Is Necropolitan just for flavor? Just curious... Yes, pretty much. The necropolitan, what with its undead immunities, is in general very good for LA +0, but it's not at all integral to this build. It's nice to be immune to fatigue, so you can use Snowflake Wardance without worrying about the after-effects, but you're also immune to your own music(!), so you'll need to spend two feats on Requiem and Lingering Song for your music to have full effect on you.
DisposableHero_ 04-13-05, 10:36 AM	Hm. Is there a feat somewhere that allows you to keep up two bardic music effects at the same time, perhaps? Lingering Song from complete adventurer will make your bardic music last 1 minute after you stop performing rather than 5 rounds after, not quite two songs at once but it will increase the duration of your first one.
DarknessEternal 04-13-05, 11:47 AM	Where might I find Inspirational Boost and Song of the Heart?
typeo65 04-13-05, 12:21 PM	Where might I find Inspirational Boost and Song of the Heart? Inspirational Boost - Complete Adventurer Song of the Heart - Eberron I'm pretty sure I've seen something that lets you use more than 1 bardic music effect at once, but I could be mistaken.
Lord Zeb 04-13-05, 12:25 PM	There are a couple of PrCs that grant the power to use two different songs at the same time (Warchanter and Seeker of the Song or whatever it's called) ... it's not a feat, but something you could definitely level into. Warchanter IIRC grants the ability at level 5, while Seeker is earlier (though prereqs for Seeker mean it's overall at a higher level). Hope that helps, will have to check the books when I get home.
Khazra Reborn 04-13-05, 02:36 PM	words of creation (BoED) doubles the bonus from inspire courage. With full bardic music thats +8 attack & damage for you & everyone in the party! Warchanter is also full BAB which helps your BaB.
MysticRhythms 04-13-05, 04:14 PM	I'm unfortunately at work and don't have my books with me, but there is a Prestige Class that allows you to use two bardic songs simultaneously. I want to say it's the War Chanter but that's a total guess.
Zemyla 04-13-05, 05:28 PM	Yes, Warchanter does let you sing two songs at once.
jay 04-13-05, 06:14 PM	words of creation (BoED) doubles the bonus from inspire courage. With full bardic music thats +8 attack & damage for you & everyone in the party! :shocked: Right... I forgot about that (haven't been able to check BoED lately)! But there's a drawback, right? Xd4 of backlash damage, IIRC? Also, it could be argued that it'd be more in keeping with the spirit of the rules if you first doubled the bonus, then added the +1 from Song of the Heart and inspirational boost each... What about inspire greatness? Does Words of Creation improve that too?
solbergb 04-13-05, 06:16 PM	Yes, Warchanter does let you sing two songs at once. True but only at the cost of your bard song and spell progression. Inspire courage, for example, will pin at the +1 level, and you won't get inspire greatness. Warchanter is like dragon disciple, it is a melee class. It gets its own songs that help warriors (mmm, inspire recklessness) , but a vanilla skills/spells focused bard won't want it. Seeker of the Song also lets you do bardsong effects as a free action, but it is another PRC that kills spell progression. You get the extra song effects INSTEAD of additional spells.
typeo65 04-13-05, 06:23 PM	Words of creation doubles courage, greatness, competence, and heroics. You take a d4 of nonlethal damage for every rank of perform needed for the ability.
The Thing in the Night 04-13-05, 07:26 PM	Sure, at ~600 gp per charge, this is a very expensive passtime, but the visual of a bard fighting like Gandalf in the movies, sword and staff in hand, is nice... and so is the feeling of having an attack bonus over +30 at 10th level with a "weak" class! [/QUOTE] Who ever said that Bards were weak? This thread is just one more example to show that anyone who dismisses as bards as capering pansies hasn't been on the boards long enough. Great job.
Interested2 04-13-05, 08:10 PM	Out of curiosity, are there any feats other than Artist and Way of the Sparrow that increase one's perform check?
Lord Zeb 04-13-05, 08:36 PM	I just checked, and Seeker of the Song does grant the Combine Songs ability at 2nd level. This would be a great dip for most straight-Bard builds, and with the bonus from Song of the Heart and Inspirational Boost the last Inspire Courage at 20th isn't missed too much. @level 12 Round 1: Combine Songs Inspire Courage and Greatness with swift Inspirational Boost Round 2: Kick butt, take names (in order to perform about this later) Cost in feats: Skill Focus (perform) -- which delays Arcane Strike till 12th Looks on your friends' faces: Priceless
PhoenixInferno 04-13-05, 08:52 PM	Seeker of the Song doesn't advance Bardic Music abilities although it stacks to determine the number of uses. This may be a problem depending on the campaign's expected final level. Seeker of the Song's music ability is kinda cool, but pretty limited at 2nd level, I think.
Lord Zeb 04-13-05, 09:02 PM	Seeker of the Song doesn't advance Bardic Music abilities although it stacks to determine the number of uses. This may be a problem depending on the campaign's expected final level. Seeker of the Song's music ability is kinda cool, but pretty limited at 2nd level, I think. Yep, that's true, you do lose out on 2 levels of bardic music & spells in order to gain Combine Songs and two relatively weak Seeker songs (well, the Burning one is cool for Fire Resistance 15 for you & friends). The idea is that it's just a 2 level dip for Combine Songs (and potentially good epic progressions down the road). The other option, Warchanter, takes you out of Bard levels for too long (5 levels) if you want a fairly straight Bard build. Cheers, Zeb
typeo65 04-13-05, 09:54 PM	+21 (+9 BAB, +2 Str, +3 Cha, +4 inspire courage, +3 inspire greatness) Is that +9 BAB for a 10th level bard a mistake?
Michael Tree 04-13-05, 10:28 PM	That's a pretty good build right there, and even it could be optimized much further. To take advantage of the big bonuses to hit and damage, it's a good idea to use two weapon fighting, taking the feat at 1st level. For your other 1st level feat, try power attack, since by the time you start boosting your Str and Cha with level bonuses and magic items, and use Words of Creation for inspire courage, you'll have more attack bonus than you need. Try something like: 1 - Two weapon fighting, Power attack 3 - Snowflake wardance 6 - Song of the Heart 9 - Arcane Strike 12 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting 15 - Words of Creation 18 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Antendren 04-13-05, 10:56 PM	If you're going to use Power Attack and TWF, doesn't that pretty much demand Oversized TWF so you can benefit from PA with your off hand?
Michael Tree 04-13-05, 11:12 PM	If you're going to use Power Attack and TWF, doesn't that pretty much demand Oversized TWF so you can benefit from PA with your off hand? Whoops, you're right. I forgot you can't use power attack with light weapons.
jay 04-14-05, 04:06 AM	Is that +9 BAB for a 10th level bard a mistake? Right, sorry. It should be +7, of course.
DarknessEternal 04-14-05, 11:42 AM	It's pretty dang difficult to cast spells while holding two weapons. Well, if you actually want to swing those weapons or move it is. Move action to swap a weapon to another hand, or put it away. You'd need to take 2 move actions for every spell you'd try to cast and move only a total of 10 feet during those 2 rounds. Of course, using Arcane Strike requires a spell for each weapon you want to power up as well, so you wouldn't really have many spells anyway. If you really wanted to be that combat oriented, why not just give up on straight Bard and be a Warchanter or something?
Khazra Reborn 04-14-05, 11:55 AM	IIRC Theres an exotic weapon called wristblades which let you keep your hands free. I thought your songs still improved with warchanter, you just did't learn any new songs....man is my DM going to be annoyed What races do people play for the bard? i like gold dwarves for the con bonus myself or human for the feat & human paragon.
Michael Tree 04-14-05, 01:28 PM	You could spend a feat on EWP (two-bladed sword), which would solve both the issue of power attacking with both blades and the problem of needing a hand free to cast spells.
jay 04-14-05, 05:13 PM	What races do people play for the bard? i like gold dwarves for the con bonus myself or human for the feat & human paragon. My current bard is a necropolitan. It's nice not to have to worry about death effects, stat drain, enchantments, fear &c. &c., especially when you consider than between low Wis and bad base Fort save, the bards' Will and Fort saves tend to be rather middling. Humans, with their extra skill and feat, are my default choice for any class, so they're good for bard too. Gold dwarves are a cool non-obvious choice, yes. A dwarven record keeper or forge chanter, giving the beat for the smiths, could well be a bard. Take Battle Caster (twice!) from Complete Arcane and get your DM to allow you trade in your longsword and rapier proficiency for battleaxe and warhammer, tank out, and go inspire that squad of defenders! In a game where I could pay off LA (as per Unearthed Arcana) I'd consider playing a drow bard, but I wouldn't expect it to be the Munchkin's Choice(tm) even then. Tieflings are another sub-optimal choice which I'd find interesting story-wise (tiefling-as-outcast fits in well with bard), but taking a hit in Cha hurts. Of course, that's not a problem if you can use one of the alt.tieflings from that thread on ENWorld, the one with +2 Cha...
jay 04-14-05, 05:17 PM	You could spend a feat on EWP (two-bladed sword), which would solve both the issue of power attacking with both blades and the problem of needing a hand free to cast spells. Make it a two-bladed scimitar and you could be a priest of the Valenar elves from Eberron (their priests are both bards and clerics). OTOH, I'where to get enough feats for all those feats: EWP (two-bladed scimitar), TWF, Power Attack, Song of the Heart, Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance...? This ties up all the feats but one for a straight elf bard!
Mattastrophic 04-14-05, 05:29 PM	For melee-oriented bards, I'm a big fan of taking one level of Marshal for Heavy Armor Proficiency, then taking Battle Caster from Complete Arcane, so you can cast all your bard spells in mithral fullplate. I have a Bard4 going Bard8/Marshal1/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord2/EldritchKnightX based on that.
The Thing in the Night 04-14-05, 06:44 PM	But what's cool about the original build is that it's a core bard all the way, without relying on dipping. Oh and don't Valenar Elves count the two bladed scimitar as a martial weapon?
jay 04-15-05, 04:13 AM	But what's cool about the original build is that it's a core bard all the way, without relying on dipping. Right. I prefer relatively simple builds. OTOH, another neat build that occured to me uses a bit of dipping: 1 Brd Battle Caster, Power Attack 2 Pal 3 Pal Devoted Performer 4 Brd 5 Brd 6 Brd Extra Smite 7 Brd 8 Brd 9 Brd Arcane Strike 10 Brd &c. Power Attack is best if you decide to pick up two more Pal levels down the line, so you can get Divine Might. If not, you could swap it for something else. You have divine grace, and at 10th level, you're smiting just as good as a 10th level paladin: +Cha to attack, +10 to damage, 3/day. No Snowflake Wardance, though, so the attack bonus is not so wacky, but you going around in your mithral full plate with a mithral buckler, so AC should be better. In Eberron, you might use the "bardic feat instead of new music" to swap suggestion out for Song of the Heart, depending what your priorities are. Suggestion is very, very good, but requires a more indirect and sneaky mindset, which your paladin/bard may or may not have, so you might prefer the +1 bonus to inspire courage and inspire greatness SoH gets you. Oh and don't Valenar Elves count the two bladed scimitar as a martial weapon? I think so. I'm not sure whether that's a rule from Eberon CS or from the WotC articles, though.
Expanded Psion 04-15-05, 10:24 AM	Only problem is that you can't be a Paladin/Bard unless you're using UA.
rilem 04-15-05, 12:23 PM	Or Compete Adventurer — which he apparently does, since he's using the Devoted Performer feat, which makes the combination possible.
jay 04-15-05, 01:09 PM	Or Compete Adventurer — which he apparently does, since he's using the Devoted Performer feat, which makes the combination possible. Right. I must also note that I have allowed paladin/bard multiclassing (paladin alignment requirements overrul bardic ones) even without a feat, way back in 3.0 days. None of my players took up the offer, though. Still, it's nice to have your house rules supported by official books, and the other benefits of the feat are good enough that practically any Brd/Pal will still want it, even if they are allowed to use the multiclass without it.
Lord Zeb 04-15-05, 02:50 PM	How does that work exactly (the Devoted Performer feat)? Do you have to take it at 1st level to start as a LG Bard, or do you have to start as a LG Paladin and take the feat to multi into Bard? Just curious...I personally prefer RP'ing CG to LG. ;)
Mommy was an Orc 04-15-05, 03:15 PM	Neither... You basically have to start out as a Bard who is not LG, then change alignment to LG and take a level of Paladin - you need a level of Bard and Paladin to qualify for the feat. If you go the other route, then you're no longer a Paladin... How does that work exactly (the Devoted Performer feat)? Do you have to take it at 1st level to start as a LG Bard, or do you have to start as a LG Paladin and take the feat to multi into Bard? Just curious...I personally prefer RP'ing CG to LG. ;)
Lord Zeb 04-16-05, 10:56 AM	Neither... You basically have to start out as a Bard who is not LG, then change alignment to LG and take a level of Paladin - you need a level of Bard and Paladin to qualify for the feat. If you go the other route, then you're no longer a Paladin... Thanks for the explanation, Mom. Definitely sounds messy!
Interested2 04-16-05, 11:36 AM	Or you could take Paladin of Freedom from UA.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-05, 12:51 PM	Personally, I'd let someone who stated that their intent was to take that feat at 3rd level and be either a Bard 2/Paladin 1 or Bard 1/Paladin 2 at that point start out LG. Or you could take Paladin of Freedom from UA.
calebjyoung 04-16-05, 05:44 PM	[QUOTE=Khazra Reborn]words of creation (BoED) doubles the bonus from inspire courage. With full bardic music thats +8 attack & damage QUOTE] Most DM's who take the time to read the detailed description of the W.O.C. would agree, it only doubles the base bardic effect. The exalted deeds does clearly spell out how much each inspire courage is doubled which tends to indicate this feat is to make the Bard better, but not break it.
AramilWindwalker 04-16-05, 05:48 PM	Bards have never been that weak anyways, just not good alone, in small groups they can fill the wiz and rogue's spaces, in large groups... well inspire courage +4 really goes somewhere in a group of 4 meleers/4ranged types/4 mages using touch attack spells, and gives your DM a headache.
Timespike 04-16-05, 10:52 PM	words of creation (BoED) doubles the bonus from inspire courage. With full bardic music thats +8 attack & damage for you & everyone in the party! Warchanter is also full BAB which helps your BaB. Something tells me that Mr. Necropolitan is already disqualified from having exalted feats by virtue of his racial template....
Timespike 04-16-05, 10:54 PM	Personally, I'd let someone who stated that their intent was to take that feat at 3rd level and be either a Bard 2/Paladin 1 or Bard 1/Paladin 2 at that point start out LG. I would too, without question. One of my players has a ghost who did this as a cohort, so there's even a precedent in my game world.
The Thing in the Night 04-17-05, 12:01 PM	Something tells me that Mr. Necropolitan is already disqualified from having exalted feats by virtue of his racial template.... Now now, don't be racist ;). Undead can be nice people too...Look at FR balenorns- good liches.
Interested2 04-17-05, 01:12 PM	Well, I wonder how high we can get Inspire to.... So far: Song of the Heart: +1 Inspirational Boost: +1 Words of Creation: x2 Anything else? As a side note - those of you playing necropolitan characters - aren't you worried about being Turned/Destroyed/Rebuked/Commanded?
scalpel 04-17-05, 05:35 PM	MW horn
Interested2 04-17-05, 06:05 PM	Out of curiosity, the old 3.0 items that give +1 to Bardic Music....what does that do, in game terms now that it's 3.5?
jay 04-17-05, 06:29 PM	As a side note - those of you playing necropolitan characters - aren't you worried about being Turned/Destroyed/Rebuked/Commanded? It's one of the (few) weaknesses, yes, but I don't think it's too bad. First off, the necropolitans get +2 turn resistance. Then, getting turned is no worse than getting panicked. Not nice, but not anything that couldn't happen to a human. Getting rebuked is worse, I guess, since you don't run away, just stand there while you get your ass kicked. But it's not that much worse than all those other happy fun things like negative levels, mind control, death effects, which only happen to other people when you're a necropolitan. Getting commanded or destroyed sucks, obviously, but you need a cleric of twice your level to do that. Look at the numbers (don't forget +2 turn resistance!), and you'll see that if the opponent can command/destroy you, he can probably kick your ass in seven different ways anyway: at 1st level, it takes a 6th level cleric; at 5th level, it takes a Clr14; at 10th level, Clr24 and so on. But running into a hostile Sun cleric could be nasty...
Interested2 04-17-05, 06:59 PM	This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4577214) is why I will NEVER play an undead character unless it's somehow immune to turning.