Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scrote 11-10-03, 08:53 PM	Ok, my first time post to the board, so please have a little tolerance. My knowledge of the rules is fairly loose, and I have limited experience with 3rd Ed. I know this is an "advanced" board, but I think I can try and keep any rules questions out of the discussion. Ok, the scenario thusfar: I have rolled up my starting level character, and been told that I can create a PC based on anything I can find in the Realms book or in the Players (so, I could for example, play a fire gensai). Available Stats: 16, 16, 15, 14, 13, 13 Now, a couple of the guys I am playing with are fairly accomplished gamers, and the guy running the campaign, in particular, is reknown (at least amongst us:) for his tendency to power game. So, what I would like, is some friendly advice as to what some good choices for me to take might be. I have a few ideas already, and I am sure that I could make a satisfactory character left to my own devices, but I am really after something a little more than "satisfactory" here. I'm just gonna list my thougfhts/ideas as a series of points. Keep in mind, I have no interest what-so-ever in maintaining any kind of backstory consistency (in the context of the Forgotten Realms) or "realistic" flavour with my character. I want him to be the best that he can, period. After that, well, here's hoping he'll grow on me :) 1. It looks like my stats are pretty good across the board. Nothing exceptional, but all above average, and reasonably high end. Seems to me that this paves the way for a decent multiclass character. How better to take advantage of my stats, across the board? 2. While I do have some more exceptional character races available to me (planetouched), my lack of experience means that it is difficult for me to judge how evenly the advantages and disadvantages are offset for those races. eg. Will constantly being a level behind be worth the gain for playing any particular planetouched? 3. I read a snippet from a min/max workshop held at GenCon '01. It mentioned that for the purposes of min/max characters, unless you are playing a barbarian or monk, then your race choice should almost always be halfling (due to the large number of racial/size advantages. BArbarians and Monks should take half-orc, apparently). True? 4. The same snippet (above, 3.) mentioned that clerics easily give the most bang for their buck, over any other class. True? It would certainly seem that the are much more worthwhile playing than a wizard, what about in comparision to the other classes? Comments? 5. It would make sense to me that, when multiclassing, one of your classes should be the favoured class for your race. How do others feel about that idea? Is the XP penalty prohibitive enough to warrant playing a favoured class? Or is it a case of penalty be buggered, its all about the skills and bonuses I'll get (*eventually*). 6. Skillls are good, fun and handy, but it is Feats that really make ther uber characters. Is this the case? So, atm, I have a halfling cleric/thief. I would assume(after racial mods): STR 11 DEX 18 CON 14 WIS 16 INT 15 CHA 13 Toughest decision was between extra hit points and extra skill points. What's more important? (in the context of *this* character). Now, this is all based of what I have read in the last hour or so, and to me, this character does not seem that crash hot, not compared to what I might play. Anyway, this psot is long enough as it is. Even if somebody wants to suggest a more apprpriate (based on what I want to achieve...power:) race/class(es) combination. I can go off and do some research based on that and return with some more thoughts. Alright, thanks for your time and help, -Scrote
orionscorpio 11-10-03, 11:28 PM	What level are you starting at?
scrote 11-11-03, 12:04 AM	Damn, and I though I covered everything... Starting characters, so first level. Playing planestouched guys means I start at 0 lvl I guess. -scrote
scrote 11-11-03, 12:07 AM	:dice:
catharz 11-11-03, 12:16 AM	Didn't the guys at Gencon also say you should almost *never* multiclass a caster (beyond +1 CL PrCs)? Strongheart halfling is probably one of the better player races, as is Human. However, if you are playing a Realms cleric the best route is probably Human (Meele) or Elf (Archer). If you look in the FAQ or search, I'm sure you will find some great builds. Otherwise someone (Rabidweasel?) had a Divine Trickster build that used cleric, rogue, arcane trickster, and maybe wizard or bard. That would be great for a Strongheart cleric/rogue.
scrote 11-11-03, 12:32 AM	Originally posted by catharz Didn't the guys at Gencon also say you should almost *never* multiclass a caster (beyond +1 CL PrCs)? Did they? Like I said, I read a "snippet". Certainly changers things, doesn't it. Strongheart halfling is probably one of the better player races, as is Human. However, if you are playing a Realms cleric the best route is probably Human (Meele) or Elf (Archer). If you look in the FAQ or search, I'm sure you will find some great builds. Not set on playing a cleric, it's just that I have read that they are the best value character to play. If you can look at my stats, and read my build criteria, and come up with an idea that is better (than cleric), well, I am all ears...in fact, my ears are telling me to go and look in the FAQ for some Human(melee) and Elf(archer) builds, right now ;) Otherwise someone (Rabidweasel?) had a Divine Trickster build that used cleric, rogue, arcane trickster, and maybe wizard or bard. That would be great for a Strongheart cleric/rogue. Rabidweasel, eh? That guys sounds dangerous. I don't have my heart set on playing a halfling either. It's the same deal, I heard they were the best, mathematically speaking, race to play. Any opinion on that?
catharz 11-11-03, 01:02 AM	Hmm, well all that follows is fairly common knowledge to most Min/max regulars, although there are probably those who would disagree with me. The most powerful low-level class/race combo (core only), from a pure meele damage perspective, is the Half-orc Barbarian/Rogue. The first level of barbarian give you the HP you need to survive (although some would argue that skill points are more valuable, they don't matter much from a damage+survival perspective). Maxing strength, this sort of character either ambushes at night, flinging daggers at enemies from just outside of their light radius, or does flanking with and ally. The 3.0 cleric archer was absurdly powerful because greater magic weapon stacked on bows and arrows. In 3.5, it is slightly nerfed, but still has the ability to deal out damage and support while keeping the character out of harm's way. The meele cleric just deals out an absurd amout of damage. Divine favor, power, might, Spikes, Greater magic weapon,and possibly polymorph just keep on stacking up the damage. Otto the bugbear has a theoretical build that deals around 1-2k damage per round - absurd, but makes a point. At high levels it is hard to match clerics, as their spells allow them to "out fighter the fighter," while still doing healing and artillery. A creative player can probably be as or more effective with a Druid, wizard, or sorceror, but it is hard to match the cleric in pure numbers. The only characters that come close to high level clerics in meele power are generally absurd trippers (and grapplers), such as the Feral Anthro Giant squid (!) and the Runescarred tripper. But like I said, these builds aren't mine, and shouuld be fairly easy to find on the boards. Good luck ;)
cellardweller 11-11-03, 01:04 AM	1. Any class has multi attribute dependency to some degree or another. With those stats, I can't think of anything you can't play 2. Generally no, but there are exceptions. They suit non-spellcasters better than spellcasters. 3. Very odd advice. The granuarity on race choice is much finer. Races suit niches rather than classes. 4. Clerics are a very powerful class, but that does not mean that they are the best at filling every niche. Remember that dnd is team sport. 5. You should avoid xp penalties like the plague, but with some careful juggling, that does not mean you have to use the 6. If that were true, everyone would play fighters. So, atm, I have a halfling cleric/thief. Never mix multiclass spellcasters unless it is required for PRC entry. With those stats I would go 16 Int, 16 Dex, 15 Con, 14 Wis, 13 Str, 13 Int. Wizard/Master of the Yuirwood/Eldritch Knight and pick up a bow to use in between fireballs.
Ithilorien 11-11-03, 01:07 AM	The cleric is the probably the easiest character to optimize for any particular use, and also the hardest to royally screw up, but any character can be optimized. I'm a big advocate for integrating character optimization with character developement (or rollplay with roleplay) and so I think the big question here is: do you want to play a cleric? I regard clerics as likely the most powerful class (maybe tied with druids), but I can never bring myself to bear the idea of playing the holy man - it just has no appeal to me. So, I'd say your approach should be to make a concept you really like and would love to play, without thinking of power at all, and then bring it here and see the wonders the optimization board can do.
scrote 11-11-03, 02:24 AM	Ok, so I have gone away and come up with a concept. I wanna be a pirate :). So the base info again: Available stats: 16, 16, 15, 14, 13, 13 Books: Players (v3.0), FR Campaign Setting. Religion:FR Deities only (I was sorta thinking Valkur... favoured weapon...pirate's cutlass :)) Starting Level: 1 Race: Any Alignment: Any (nothing to extreme. Not real keen on true good/evil/neutral characters. Being a pirate I would probably be somewhat chaotic anyway). Concept: A pirate (type), but you can call me "The Admiral", arrgh! I am thinking that a clerical pirate would be cool. I know people have been saying that the whole spellcaster/multicalss is a bad idea, but surely someone can come up with something? OK, hopefully that is enough information for someone to help me out... Cheers, -Scrote
MoogleEmpMog 11-11-03, 02:45 AM	Cleric/Rogue is a very hard combination to optimize, because there is no Divine Trickster core prestige class like the Arcane Trickster (and I don't know of one at all, offhand). In addition, most of the best rogue-buffing spells, like Invisibility/Chameleon and Dimension Door, are arcane. Fortunately, pirates should have few, if any, rogue levels. You typical pirate isn't sneaky - he raids and plunders, but he does it at swordpoint. A good pirate cleric build would emphasise either fighter or ranger levels, with, say, 1-4 cleric levels and the rest in a fighting class. If you go with a fighter, look into convincing your DM to use the 3.0 Duellist prestige class (even the 3.5 one isn't eyebrow-raisingly bad, but it doesn't normally stack up with an armored fighter), or even the Mantis Mercenary prestige class from Oriental Adventures, which gives you a bonus to staying on your feet on a swaying deck, two-weapon fighting, and some other cool pirate-oriented abilities. Above all, don't try to advance as both a cleric and a fighting type past 4th level. You'll never maintain decent spellcasting (going to 5th level nets you 3rd level divine spells, but these aren't the big leap 3rd level arcane spells are, and you lose a base attack bonus). With your stats, I personally would go for a class like monk or ranger that rewards many good stats, although a cleric/fighter or cleric/ranger also uses some good stats. As a cleric, be sure you can take the War domain (grants you free Weapon Focus). With this, you effectively match a fighter in attack bonus with your favored weapon up to 4th level cleric, saving the cost of a feat and getting you spellcasting all but free. Your other domains depend on what you want to do, but a pirate cleric with War and either Water or Travel (both useful) would make sense.
scrote 11-11-03, 03:19 AM	Originally posted by MoogleEmpMog Cleric/Rogue is a very hard combination to optimize, because there is no Divine Trickster core prestige class like the Arcane Trickster (and I don't know of one at all, offhand). In addition, most of the best rogue-buffing spells, like Invisibility/Chameleon and Dimension Door, are arcane. Yeah, time to let go off the cleric/rogue idea I think. Fortunately, pirates should have few, if any, rogue levels. You typical pirate isn't sneaky - he raids and plunders, but he does it at swordpoint. A good pirate cleric build would emphasise either fighter or ranger levels, with, say, 1-4 cleric levels and the rest in a fighting class. If you go with a fighter, look into convincing your DM to use the 3.0 Duellist prestige class (even the 3.5 one isn't eyebrow-raisingly bad, but it doesn't normally stack up with an armored fighter), or even the Mantis Mercenary prestige class from Oriental Adventures, which gives you a bonus to staying on your feet on a swaying deck, two-weapon fighting, and some other cool pirate-oriented abilities. As far as i can tell, there is no prestige class "Duelist" for 3.0 Ed. So is it 3.5?(which is barred -unfortuantely- for our game.) Unless you meant something else. Like, there is a duelist class that came out in a mag (like Dragon) b4 3.5 came out, and that class has now been incorporated into 3.5? Above all, don't try to advance as both a cleric and a fighting type past 4th level. You'll never maintain decent spellcasting (going to 5th level nets you 3rd level divine spells, but these aren't the big leap 3rd level arcane spells are, and you lose a base attack bonus). So, you suggest Cleric4/RangerX? With your stats, I personally would go for a class like monk or ranger that rewards many good stats, although a cleric/fighter or cleric/ranger also uses some good stats. You refer to a straight ranger or straight monk? And offer that they are better characters, but that a multi'd ranger/cleric would not be too bad? Have I got this right? As a cleric, be sure you can take the War domain (grants you free Weapon Focus). With this, you effectively match a fighter in attack bonus with your favored weapon up to 4th level cleric, saving the cost of a feat and getting you spellcasting all but free. Your other domains depend on what you want to do, but a pirate cleric with War and either Water or Travel (both useful) would make sense. Yeah, gonna have to do some reading up on those. Be back later. Cheers, -scrote
nikademus 11-11-03, 03:42 AM	Hello, perhaps you could take a human cleric with the travel domain and some Diplomacy and charisma. Human follower of Oghma true neutral Str 16 / Int 13 / Wis 16 / Dex 13 / Con 15 / Cha 13 Raise Con at 4. Level Progression Cleric 1-7 / Divine Disciple 1-5 (FR)/ Cleric 8-15 Feats 01) Spellcasting prodigy, Expertise 03) 06) Extend spell 09) Persistent spell Nikademus
scrote 11-11-03, 04:26 AM	The problem is, I feel frustrated taking human as a race. Surely gaining a racial modifer to gain an 18 in a prime stat is a good idea? Of course, i can't think of many races that give + to wisdom. Planetouched. Is there a FR gnome/elf/halfling that does the same? See, I am also frustrated by the fact that I don't have a copy of the FR campoaign setting handy... Does anyone else have comments on Nikademus' suggestion? -scrote
Funny Slaughter 11-11-03, 05:04 AM	nikademus' build is quite iconic, you can go wrong with it. add in a level of contemplative to get an extra domain and substitute the later cleric levels with another PrC of your choice. my actual favorite is windwalker from faith and pantheons, would be quite cool as a pirate since controlling the winds is not bad for a sailor while walking through the air @will is never bad if you lose your ship or dont want to swing with a rope while entering the enemies one. i doubt that expertise is the right feat though, better to go with power attack followed by divine might to give your melee-attacks some extra bang. following the rough guidelines of a clerical archer would not be bad either since you can fly and my be mostly fighting on range for some time while you reach another ship anyhow. if you dont want to be human: be something else. as a cleric your race is not that important, i would say play an elf, you get proficiency in longbows then and can choose quite some subraces to meet your taste. just think that you have to follow shaundukal to enter windwalker. gs Funny
nikademus 11-11-03, 05:14 AM	Hello Funny, I didnt add Contemplative or Windwalker or Divine Might, because Scrote said that only FRCS and Players Guide are allowed. Therefore i thought , that no DotF and F&P is available. With only FRCS Divine Disciple is not bad i think. I proposed Expertise because of the fencing flair (pirate). But you are right, Shaundakul and Windwalker could be better if allowed.(I like the Windwalker PrC, it is one of the best) Nikademus
Funny Slaughter 11-11-03, 05:34 AM	ups, i did just read FR and included the sourcebooks then. k, i march backwards then :) i think expertise is not that good just because you can amp your AC with spells easily and there are quite some better caster feats in the FRCS. gs Funny
Kaelas Bloodstorm 11-11-03, 05:45 AM	splatbook song and silence had the pirate prestige class look no further if you want to be a pirate. load up on basic cleric levels or fighter levels then take that pirate prestige class at first opportunity High Ho Sailor !!
catharz 11-11-03, 12:36 PM	I have to agree with Funny on the Windwalker thing, it is awesome.
Sisyfos 11-11-03, 01:13 PM	This is the cleric archer build from Neonsamurai's website at: http://minmax.neonsamurai.de/ "The infamous clerical archer shows how sick things can get with extend/persistent buff spells and the right cleric domains. This build is rather simple without any fancy prestige classes. I chose shevarash and chaotic neutral alignment for flavor reasons - the total war versus drow theme is just too cool ;) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 01 weapon focus (longbow), point blank shot, rapid shot, elf weapon proficiencies 02 03 precise shot 04 05 06 extend spell 07 08 09 persistent spell 10 11 12 free (quicken spell is probably good) 13 14 15 free (far shot might be a good choice?) 16 17 18 free 19 20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BAB : +15 Saves : FORT: +12 REF: +6 WILL: +12 Hitpoints : 20d8 + CON mod Initiative : Dex mod Take domains elf and war to get weapon focus(longbow) and point blank shot as bonus feats. On the first levels, use divine favor to increase your combat prowess. This will put you on par with the fighter during levels 1-3. You also should try to get your DM to allow you the rules for flexible weapon focus with bows and change your weapon focus to composite longbow to open you the door to mighty+4 longbows Now you get access to cat's grace, endurance and aid. All very usefull spells for you. However, yet you will have to chose wisely when to cast these spells since you can't quicken them. Level 5 gets you magic vestment to improve your armor. Greater Magic Weapon arrives at level 7. You a +1 bow increasing by +1 for every four character levels. From now on you should be superior to a mundane archery character. On top of that put divine power if things go too hot. Level 9 is the promised land ! Persistent divine favor, the crux of this buildcan be made persistent and you can extend greater magic weapon which lasts 18 hours now. At this level you generally got everything you need. As being an archer primary, do not forget that you still are a full time cleric with all the nice spells like heal/harm, hold person, blindness, anti-life shell (incredibly usefull for an archer), ethereal jaunt (excellent to escape nasty situations), scrying, destruction, resurrection and of course gate and miracle :o) At 12th level you can prepare quickened cat's grace or quickened endurance to get you an edge in surprise encounters. On the other hand you can use mass bear's endurance to buss up your whole party, the decision is up to you. To be honest, this character comes along fine without any magical gear. However you might want to try to get some of the following stuff. Prayer beads of Karma are kick ass ! Try to get them as early as possible. Boots of speed give you that nice extra attack that you lack until you got access to (persistent) divine power. Pearls of Power can greatly enhance your spell casting repertoire, especially those 3rd level pearls for all your daily buff spells. Some notes: You are not bound to cleric 20 of course. You may add any prestige class that grants full spell progression. Since you are buffed to the roof anyway, contemplative comes to my mind. The d6 hit die shouldn't hurt that much since you aren't expected to go toe to toe anyway, and even if that happens, you will have enough ways to escape a nasty situation. The cool thing with a clerical archer of course is that you can switch to melee mode at any time. Just carry a longsword and large shield with you and cast greater magic weapon and magic vestment. Buff yourself with endurance and bull's strength and you are ready to go - uber AC nice damage and good to hit. You of course have always the ability to turn large with righteous might and get a nice bab with divine power if things go too hot for your taste." Some notes follow by me Sisyfos: 1. You play 3.0 right? There bow and arrow bonuses both stack. If your DM goes 3.5 with that rule then just buy a magic bow: +1, shock, flaming, frost, distance and use greater magic weapon on your arrows only. Its a bit more expensive but more flavorful also. 2. Use summoning a lot. Summoned water elementals, earth elementals and fire elementals are great at marine settings. 3. Worhip a god of seas, luck, thievery or storms for example. 4. Play an elf, half-elf (drow for example) or human. The elven pirate could be very flavorful... Divine disciple is not a bad PrC to take for a cleric.